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General: Soap Box: Mass Effect 3 Part 2 - The 5%

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  • ValasAzuviirValasAzuviir The HaguePosts: 27Member

    Originally posted by GullyFoyle

    I'm fully aware of the Heinlein novel as Heinlein happens to be one of my favorite authors. I've read every one of his novels (my favorite being The Moon is a Harsh Mistress).  I fully recognize that the novel has extremly strong militiristic themes within it.  If you read Heinlein novels, you'll find that most of them have rather extreme arguments for things that the average person would balk at, from free love and non-traditional marriage practices to athiesm, anarchism and all sorts of different governmental / philosophical ideas.

    The difference between the Verehoven film and the novel is that the characters in the Verhoven film are absolutely unsympathetic and without substance.  Contrawise, there are actual arguments and discussions within the novel in which ideas are questioned and characters are developed.   It's certainly not Heinlein's best novel, but it remains thought provoking and fun.  The film is a sad joke by comparison.

    I understand that Verehoven often tries to do satire, but he's so over the top that it just comes off as nonsene to me.    The only Verehoven film I liked was "Black Book."  (It's true, I don't even like Robocop, and Total Recall? Any respect I may have had for the man vanished when I listened to his commentary track for it.  The man comes off like a snotty  twelve year old hopped up on energy drinks.

     

    Actually, Social commentary is more what drives Verhoeven at times, and being someone who lived through WW2 (he was 2 when the Germans invaded the Netherlands), he has a rather severe dislike for fascism. His house was near a German V1 and V2 military base, and he nearly lost his parents due to Allied Bombing aimed at said base (that was around age 5).

    I suspect that he was hired to do the movie, went to his research* and so loathed the book, that he couldn't finish it (which he admits to) and that's why he made the movie that he did.

    Some folks would just quit, Verhoeven is the type of person who'd then counter attack and ridicule such a thing.

    Just a case of putting the wrong director on the wrong project really. Verhoeven is the last person you should put on a project where it looks like they're advocating a fascist system as something benign.

    *: The man is a member of the Jesus Seminar, and the only one who doesn't hold a degree in biblical studies. (He has them in Math and Physics) So he tends to do quite some research when it comes to his work.

  • Segun777Segun777 Jade Dynasty Correspondent Lemont, PAPosts: 97Member

    Exactly so he judged Heinlein from his impression of a book he never finished. I mean come on now the book is like 200 pages its not an Opus how lazy do you have to be? Besides if he had done research he would have read Heinleins' refutement of the same accusations that were leveled at him all those years ago. The movie is a lazy, basterdized and worse incompetent look at important topics that Man must deal with if we wish to survive on this world or any other.

  • MumboJumboMumboJumbo LondonPosts: 3,221Member

    Originally posted by GullyFoyle



    Originally posted by UsualSuspect






    Originally posted by Escapehatch









    It’s alright to not be satisfied.  Heck, I paid money to see a Transformers movie.  I was extremely dissatisfied.  What I didn't do was demand that Michael Bay make me a better movie with those same characters, even though I felt like I had a hundred better ways in my head to make that picture.  I said "that sucked" and moved on.





    That's my problem with this entire thing, not that people didn't like the ending, though as I've already proved I am happy to explain my interpretation and defend it, it's that people think they deserve something else.  No, you don't.

    My problem with the ending of ME3 is that it didn't follow the theme of the games. To explain, let's say you're watching that Transformers movie and you don't like it, fair enough, it's not a film you're enjoying, but then in the last ten minutes they change all that crazy robot carnage into an animated movie where Bugs Bunny comes bouncing across the screen, looks up at Optimus Prime and says, "Ehhhh.. What's up doc!?".

    Or in the art case. Let's take the Mona Lisa, it's a beautiful painting, but near completion the artist decided that she needed bunny ears. Would that art still be considered a masterpiece? Is the 'artistic integrity' still there?

    Because that, to me, is the case with ME3's ending. They sold the games as a gung-ho action sci-fi movie with no metaphysical spiritual space-magic hoodoo anywhere, then the last ten minutes they completely switch themes, open up massive plot holes and throw in something akin to the ending of 2001: A Space Odyssey, instead of the Starship Troopers-esque style it originally had.

    Any integrity the artist had was lost when they put pen to paper and wrote the last ten minutes of ME3.






     

    The ending fit the theme of the previous games EXACTLY.  ME1 and 2 were all about a battle between synthetic and organic life.  The ending of ME3 is the ultimate resolution of that conflict.    If you felt that all synthetic life had to be destroyed for you to win, you have that option.  If you want to play god and control it all, like Martin Sheen, er, The Illlusive Man, you had that option, and if you wanted to be a true hero, you could end the struggle by uniting two warring factions such that it would never happen again. 

    So thematically, the ending is perfect.

    I fully agree that much of it felt rushed, that it was excessively cryptic, and that important details (how'd Shepard's crew get back to the Normandy?  How'd the Normandy get away?  etc...) were left out.  That's dissapointing.

    And I really don't grasp your comparison between Mass Effect and Starship Troopers. 

    Starship Troopers is a typical Paul Verehoven film, parodying patriotism and militarism with a hamfisted, over the top presentation and completely flat characters.

    Mass Effect is a detaileld story with complex, fleshed out characters with realistic motivations, full of difficult choices that force the player to make philosophical and moral judgements.

    I just don't understand what the ME3 ending detractors were expecting.




     

    This is a good perspective to why the ending works. But as in previous post, it negates choice which for ME is fundamental more than the Ending being a final resolution by the character of shepherd. For sure it's similar to previous endings: Destroy Collector Base or not etc... and as you say the big arc is synthetic vs organic in a cyclical pattern that *cannot* be broken. It also goes someway to explain the Reapers' extraordinary interest in undermining/co-opting Shepherd during the series in particular. That was something I really found to be grossly annoying but presumed for the moment that it was just to get players feeling like heroes who are trying to save everyone. And I find the revelation to be such a contraction of the ME universe. There's a nice symmetry to "in the mind" vs "in the universe" but really what is in the mind is the choices and events become experiences (ie inbued with meaning/significance) upon their resolution or interaction with other choices in the game. This is much more "in the mind" imo.

    I think the organic vs synthetics unfortunately has the problem of how to frame the ever expanding unverse and growth of the game with the choices growth. What we really know of the universe in RL is that it becomes less and less framed the more physics finds out starting with the round planet vs flat planet and moving on from center of the solar system to off-center... . So the starchild idea is deus ex machina to give purpose to the reapers?

    I think on the merits of this alone, ME3 ending is already failing imo. The inclusion of this cycle of synthetics vs organics and the reapers involvement is a good theme, but to be the overruling theme is leaving everything else on the cutting room floor imo. It's also not very sophisticated explanation is perhaps why a lot of players did not like it to?

  • Segun777Segun777 Jade Dynasty Correspondent Lemont, PAPosts: 97Member

    There's another assumption were forgetting ofcourse. EA solid 1.3 million physical copies of Mass Effect 3, with just under 1 million on the 360. Which leaves say 300k between the PS3 and PC. Now, those numbers are at best an estimate between chains like Walmart that don't give out numbers and online sales, the number could be between 1.5 and 2.0 million copies conservatively. Walmart sales have been at times clocked at 25% of all videogame sales. Lets, assume though that Walmart was included and then tack on 200k digital sales to arive at 1.5 Million copies sold of Mass Effect 3 from March 6 - March 31.

    Now we have the child's play charity signees at I believe the number is 62,000. Now lets say that the internet is not most peoples cup of tea and multiply that number by 4. You now have 248,000 customers who didn't like the ending. Do the math, that's 1/6 of your customers.

    Obviously these numbers are wonky at best, still they provide clues to a certain question. How many customers, or  better yet; what percentage of customers demanding a new ending, would it take to make changing the ending a sound business decision? ;)


     

  • SythionSythion Salem, ORPosts: 422Member

    The only way I can see clarification be beneficial is if the indoctrination theory was actually intended (and it probably was), leading into ME4

    While I definitely believe the indoctrination theory, I think it's still a sucker punch of an ending, and fasle advertising.

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  • MumboJumboMumboJumbo LondonPosts: 3,221Member

    Originally posted by Sythion

    The only way I can see clarification be beneficial is if the indoctrination theory was actually intended (and it probably was), leading into ME4

    While I definitely believe the indoctrination theory, I think it's still a sucker punch of an ending, and fasle advertising.

    My argument is that the choices in all ME 1,2,3 should create different types of endings.

    Is the ending of ME3 an attempt to allow some decisions from previous games trickle through but still have a standalone game?! This might explain the cause of where the ending seems to end feeling so limited.

    The trick works in 1,2 because you know you have more story to follow ("cool, wonder what this all leads to in 3!") and you still think each decisions could boomerang back at you from no-where or the story could realign in myriad ways from the past.

    Perhaps the best "Endings" in ME3 would have allowed different segments of the ME universe to have been expressed in different forms depending on Shephard's different choices? 

    image

  • EscapehatchEscapehatch Chicago, ILPosts: 10Member



    Originally posted by Segun777

    Obviously these numbers are wonky at best, still they provide clues to a certain question. How many customers, or  better yet; what percentage of customers demanding a new ending, would it take to make changing the ending a sound business decision? ;)

    But... but... I'm the most important.  I don't care if 7 billion other people liked it.  It's all about me.  Why wasn't I consulted about this ending?  I have way better ideas in my fan-fiction on how ME should have ended.  Isn't this why the internet exists?  So I can demand everything be my way?

    But to take your point seriously... the issue here is the people who liked, or were at worst neutral to, the ending of ME3 aren't taking to the internet demanding that the ending stay the way it is.  If that were the case stuff like this post would be completely lost in the noise.



     

  • VowOfSilenceVowOfSilence wheePosts: 575Member

    Originally posted by Escapehatch

    But to take your point seriously... the issue here is the people who liked, or were at worst neutral to, the ending of ME3 aren't taking to the internet demanding that the ending stay the way it is.  If that were the case stuff like this post would be completely lost in the noise.

    If people cared enough and could argue why the ending was awesome and should stay the way it was - that movement would exist. But it doesn't.  

    Hype train -> Reality

  • ConnmacartConnmacart OsloPosts: 681Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Escapehatch







    Originally posted by Segun777







    Obviously these numbers are wonky at best, still they provide clues to a certain question. How many customers, or  better yet; what percentage of customers demanding a new ending, would it take to make changing the ending a sound business decision? ;)





    But... but... I'm the most important.  I don't care if 7 billion other people liked it.  It's all about me.  Why wasn't I consulted about this ending?  I have way better ideas in my fan-fiction on how ME should have ended.  Isn't this why the internet exists?  So I can demand everything be my way?





    But to take your point seriously... the issue here is the people who liked, or were at worst neutral to, the ending of ME3 aren't taking to the internet demanding that the ending stay the way it is.  If that were the case stuff like this post would be completely lost in the noise.

    You seem to assume that most people that disliked it are actively protesting about it. Just because it is a minority that is vocal about something doesn't mean they might not share the views of the majority on the subject. 

    A vocal minority is only a minority in the fact that they speak up about something. Not automatically that they are a minority on the subject they breach.

  • Segun777Segun777 Jade Dynasty Correspondent Lemont, PAPosts: 97Member

    Originally posted by VowOfSilence

    Originally posted by Escapehatch

    But to take your point seriously... the issue here is the people who liked, or were at worst neutral to, the ending of ME3 aren't taking to the internet demanding that the ending stay the way it is.  If that were the case stuff like this post would be completely lost in the noise.

    If people cared enough and could argue why the ending was awesome and should stay the way it was - that movement would exist. But it doesn't.  


     

    Oh my, now we're talking. People believed that the Earth was flat, even though sailors and scholars told them ofcourse it isn't. People think that aliens visit Earth just to give them rectal exams. People belived that electricity would blow up the Earth. People believed that the Earth was the center of the universe. People will argue for anything even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, and lets just leave it at that... ;)

  • VowOfSilenceVowOfSilence wheePosts: 575Member

    Originally posted by Segun777

    Oh my, now we're talking. People believed that the Earth was flat, even though sailors and scholars told them ofcourse it isn't. People think that aliens visit Earth just to give them rectal exams. People belived that electricity would blow up the Earth. People believed that the Earth was the center of the universe. People will argue for anything even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, and lets just leave it at that... ;)

    And if some people make a lot of sense to a lot of people, what they say usually gets accepted as the "truth".

    And right now, most people argue that the ending sucks. Most of their arguments make perfect sense, and barely anyone even disagrees. They win.

    You wanna say otherwise? Then make a thread about how the synthesis ending makes sense: Fusing human DNA with "robot" DNA to create new DNA, which is supposed to be the next evolutionary step for everybody. Come back when people agree with you, especially those with a science or writing background.

    Hype train -> Reality

  • EscapehatchEscapehatch Chicago, ILPosts: 10Member

    Originally posted by VowOfSilence

    And right now, most people argue that the ending sucks. 


     

    Let me double check your math right quick.  Bear with me, math was not my strong subject.

    62,000 people complaining.

    2,000,000 copies sold.

    62,000 / 2,000,000 = .031 or 3.1%

    "Most" or "Majority" indicates greater than 50%.

    3.1% < 50%

    Can someone double check those numbers for me?  Make sure I got it right.

     

    And don't try that "silent majority" line again.  For all you know the "silent majority" are actually in favor of the game's ending.  Stick with the facts.  60,000+ people have pledged support to a charity to get the game's ending changed.  2 million+ game copies sold.  Those 60,000 people do not represent the majority of people who have played the game.

    I am willing to bet that the reality is most people don't care, one way or the other.  They've reacted like rational human beings.  They either liked it and went "wasn't that fun" and got on with their lives or didn't like it and went "lame!" and got on with their lives.  This is how adults are supposed to respond to things.

  • JeroKaneJeroKane OsloPosts: 5,353Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Escapehatch



    Originally posted by VowOfSilence

    And right now, most people argue that the ending sucks. 






     

    Let me double check your math right quick.  Bear with me, math was not my strong subject.

    62,000 people complaining.

    2,000,000 copies sold.

    62,000 / 2,000,000 = .031 or 3.1%

    "Most" or "Majority" indicates greater than 50%.

    3.1% < 50%

    Can someone double check those numbers for me?  Make sure I got it right.

     

    And don't try that "silent majority" line again.  For all you know the "silent majority" are actually in favor of the game's ending.  Stick with the facts.  60,000+ people have pledged support to a charity to get the game's ending changed.  2 million+ game copies sold.  Those 60,000 people do not represent the majority of people who have played the game.

    I am willing to bet that the reality is most people don't care, one way or the other.  They've reacted like rational human beings.  They either liked it and went "wasn't that fun" and got on with their lives or didn't like it and went "lame!" and got on with their lives.  This is how adults are supposed to respond to things.

    The silent majority holds true and has been proven again and again.

    The vast majority of gamers NEVER visit any gaming forum and/or don't bother with forums at all!

    Me, a pretty hardcore gamer since the 80's, never browsed any forum until end 2005, when the NGE hit SWG. Since then I became active on forums, specifically MMO forums.

    Before that I was only active on my own guild website/forums. Only there!

    I play many single player (RPG) games, but never browse any of their sites or forums, unless I need some info or download any patches.

    The vast majority of non-MMO gamers play on consoles and those really don't bother with forums AT ALL!

    So yes... the silent majority holds true.

  • EscapehatchEscapehatch Chicago, ILPosts: 10Member

    Originally posted by JeroKane

    Me, a pretty hardcore gamer since the 80's, never browsed any forum until end 2005, when the NGE hit SWG. Since then I became active on forums, specifically MMO forums.

     

    I love it when someone proves me right in a reply where they think they're trying to argue against me.

    So why did you decide to check out forums when the NGE came out?  You were likely upset or confused.  Right?  You took to "the internet" to get answers.  Prior to that you just didn't care.

    If most people realy hated the ending of ME3 millions would be complaining in one form or another.  Plain and simple.  People just don't care.  The thousands that are complaining are speaking for millions who don't care one bit.

    You want actual numbers?  Convince EA to send a survey out to everyone who bought the game.  I'll put money down most of those surveys don't even get filled out... because most people don't care.

  • JeroKaneJeroKane OsloPosts: 5,353Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Escapehatch



    Originally posted by JeroKane






    Me, a pretty hardcore gamer since the 80's, never browsed any forum until end 2005, when the NGE hit SWG. Since then I became active on forums, specifically MMO forums.





     

    I love it when someone proves me right in a reply where they think they're trying to argue against me.

    So why did you decide to check out forums when the NGE came out?  You were likely upset or confused.  Right?  You took to "the internet" to get answers.  Prior to that you just didn't care.

    If most people realy hated the ending of ME3 millions would be complaining in one form or another.  Plain and simple.  People just don't care.  The thousands that are complaining are speaking for millions who don't care one bit.

    You want actual numbers?  Convince EA to send a survey out to everyone who bought the game.  I'll put money down most of those surveys don't even get filled out... because most people don't care.

    Did you even read my post??

    The vast majority game sales are on consoles!  If those people are upset about the ending, or didn't like the game... they just ditch it in a corner or sell it back to the store to trade it for another game (ever thought why there is such a huge second hand market of console games?  Stores like Gamestop it's their main income! ).

    Its' mostly PC gamers.... and MMO gamers in general that are active on gaming forums.

    The number of unhappy people regarding ME3 is growing each day!

    The numbers you come up with are NOT the actual total numbers of unhappy people!

    I am EXTREMELY unhappy about ME3's endings!  I have not bothered posting on Bioware's forums, nor signed up on any of those fansites.

    Why? Because I do not see the point!  Bioware have clearly stated they are NOT going to alter the endings, nor come up with new ones!

    So I am done with ME3 and Bioware in general. Case closed.

  • LordOfPitLordOfPit North Bay, ONPosts: 86Member

    Originally posted by Escapehatch

     

    I am willing to bet that the reality is most people don't care, one way or the other.  They've reacted like rational human beings.  They either liked it and went "wasn't that fun" and got on with their lives or didn't like it and went "lame!" and got on with their lives.  This is how adults are supposed to respond to things.

    Let me voice one of those adults who pracitcally bought an XBOX 360 in anticipation for ME1 and went through all 3 titles. I'm absolutely fine with the ending to ME3, because long ago I've realized the enemy is so huge (literally and figuratively) and the stakes are so high no amount of firepower is going to ensure survival. Salvation always had to come from a higher-up entity, a Machine-God if you will. It's just where the story was going and no amount of PR would've convinced me otherwise.

    Regarding ME3 itself, if you play it as if it itself is the Ending of the Triology and not in anticipation for any sort of ending, you should be fine.

    If you want to write your own ending, you have to write the story that preceeded it.

  • Segun777Segun777 Jade Dynasty Correspondent Lemont, PAPosts: 97Member

    Jerokane

    Let me get this straight. There is a huge used game markets for consoles because console gamers don't care and they sell their games back to Gamestop. Forgetting that the fact that Gamestop doesn't sell used PC games, at all anymore; your statement makes no sense. When the Playstation or Xbox fanboys talk smack where do they do it? When people are calling the Wii a toy where do they do it? When there's an argument about Tekken v. DOA where is the argument?

    You're unhappy. C'est. La. Vie. You are not the majority simply because you're screaming the loudest. Everyone likes to assume that their way is the only way to think.



     

  • JeroKaneJeroKane OsloPosts: 5,353Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Segun777

    Jerokane

    Let me get this straight. There is a huge used game markets for consoles because console gamers don't care and they sell their games back to Gamestop. Forgetting that the fact that Gamestop doesn't sell used PC games, at all anymore; your statement makes no sense. When the Playstation or Xbox fanboys talk smack where do they do it? When people are calling the Wii a toy where do they do it? When there's an argument about Tekken v. DOA where is the argument?





    You're unhappy. C'est. La. Vie. You are not the majority simply because you're screaming the loudest. Everyone likes to assume that their way is the only way to think.

    There is a huge Used Game market for Console games, simply because they are not bound by single use CD-keys like PC games.

    I am not console gamer. I like to play on consoles from time to time (sertain games are just more fun to play on Console than on PC).

    I am still a PC player through and through.

    All I am saying is that those numbers he/she came up with and saying only 3% are unhappy about the game is just false and not true! As there is a Silent Majority out there that doesn't bother with forums, petitions, fansites, etc.

    Like I said, I am extremely unhappy with ME3 endings, and the overal rushed / sloppy feel of ME3 as whole, compared to ME1 and ME2.

    Yet I am not gonna bother with Bioware's forums or any fansite or petition, as Bioware isn't gonna do anything about the current endings. Nothing is gonna change. They just gonna dish out some DLC's and move on to the next project.

    So that's it! Done! Case closed! I moved on and try to forget about ME and the crappy endings.

  • Segun777Segun777 Jade Dynasty Correspondent Lemont, PAPosts: 97Member

    Speaking of moving on. Witcher 2 comes out tomorrow, then Tera on the first followed by Diablo III, Dragon's Dogma, Game of Thrones, and Secret World. This is a great 2 months to love RPGS :).

  • GullyFoyleGullyFoyle Chicago, ILPosts: 4Member

    I don't think you understand what "theme" means.  Theme does not mean plot.

    Here are some examples from popular media

    "The Matrix" (the first film):  self discovery  (shit, they even say it in the film.)

    "Star Wars" (Episode IV): Coming of age, intuition vs. the machine (a villan more machine than man, Luke turning off his computer, the whole concept of the Force, etc...)

     "Die Hard": stoubbornness.

    The "Harry Potter" novels:  Coming of age, love for others vs. love for onesself.

    For Mass Effect, the overall theme is Synthetic vs. Organic.  It's most obvious with the reaper conflict, and it's also very clear with the Geth vs. the Quarians.  Miranda struggles with her "artificial" genes.  The Illusive Man and Cerberus troops become more synthetic during ME3.  We've got the mistrust and development of AI, particulary EDI.  Hell, you can even look at the Krogan's struggle against the Genophage as part of this.  There's issues of racism and nationalsim in ME as well, but synthetic vs organic is at the core.

    And that's exactly what the ending of ME3 is about, no matter what choice you make.

  • GullyFoyleGullyFoyle Chicago, ILPosts: 4Member

    The "negates choice" thing.  I've heard this a lot and it confuses me.  Your choices in ME1 and ME2 have tremendous effects on what happens in ME3.  Who lives and dies is directly the result of those choices.   The bigger dick you were in ME1 and 2, the harder it is to get to the end of ME3, because no one wants to help you.  Yeah, BioWare still made it pretty easy to get there, and personally I'd have liked it more if there were no good renegade endings - like you get to the final conflict and are wiped out before you can reach the crucible - but if BioWare did that, I imagine that there'd be more screaming.

     

    tl;dr:  The characters in ME were wonderful.  Whether they live or diie in ME3 has everything to do with your choices.   So how can you say that choice is negated?

  • CaptHerpCaptHerp Phoenix, AZPosts: 3Member

    So after all is said and done, and after all the weeping, wailing, and protests, where are all the people who were going to boycott EA games as a result of this?

     

    I have my own reasons for being annoyed at this game, and it sure isn't because they killed off Shepard.  It's because games have replaced a life for a lot of people.

     

    I hear the wind whistling through the room now that the furor has died down.  A fictional character has bitten the dust, everyone had their tantrums, and now it's on to the next life-or-death chapter on the internet, where lifelong friendships have a lifespan of about three weeks.

     

    At least some sane person in this thread said what I did all along:  IT'S A GAME.

    Divorced as a result of my wife pitching a fit over Shepard dying in Mass Effect 3. Yes, that's right. Dumped for a fucking game. And a contingent of Russian lesbians in a stupid forum that is no longer in existence. Why? Because it was trivial bullshit, and because no one gives a shit about ME3 anymore. As I predicted three years ago.

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