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The reason why many MMO's fail....

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  • HurvartHurvart ystadPosts: 565Member

    Originally posted by Kyleran

    Originally posted by Darklighter1


    Originally posted by dubyahite


    Originally posted by RefMinor

    . Publishers need to aim lower and make a product they believe in and not just copy/paste WoW in the deluded belief they can replicate success. Make a different game and you might take some jaded WoW players and give them something new and novel that grabs their interest long term.

    I wholeheartedly agree with the red part.  There is no room for a company to be aiming for WoW levels of success. It's just not going to happen. 

     They will maintain a relatively healthy population as well, but if they were shooting for WoW-like numbers then that is probably the biggest mistake they could make. I love the game, but even I know there just isn't going to be a game that can pull in the subs like WoW did. 

    You two hit the nail on the head.  This is exactly what I was getting at.  The rest of you ....not so much.

    Hello Investors. Today we're going to ask you to put $100-300 million of "your"  money into "our" MMORPG.

    Now why might you do this?  Well my friends, one word my friends, 'profit'.  Because in the end isn't that what its' really all about?

    Of course it is.

    Now, our MMORPG is revolutionary in its design.  Rather than copy the tried and true techniques made popular by Blizzard's World of Warcraft title, (you know, billions and billions served) we're so sure players are tired of that design that we're going to throw most of what they do out and replace it with features that we 'know' players really want. (because we're just good like that and we read forums like MMORPG all the time) image

    Now we realize that in the past 8 years, almost every profitable MMORPG made has largely copied the WOW formula, but trust us here, there's no way our new title can fail, our 'vision' is pure and we 'know' it will be the next big thing.

    So, now that we've firmly put to rest your fears and doubts, and you've become 'fan-atics' of our new vision, will you please step over to the table on the right and sign your names to the checks we've already written for you.

    BTW, I forgot to mention, our new vision will not result anywhere near the profitability of WOW, but that's OK right, you'll be happy making a small, sensible profit in order to let us bring our great new MMO to the market right, because that's just the sort of big hearted folks I know you to be.

    Oh, yes, they are made out to my personal bank account, but don't worry, its all just 'company' money in the end, you have nothing to fear. image

     

     



    Maybe a WoW clone will give them worse ROI. Compared to WoW itself they have all failed. Some have failed in a really terrible way. Others not so much. But no investor that expected and was promised WoW-profit would be happy or satisfied.

    The market is saturated and there is only room for one WoW. And in most cases a copy can never compete with the original.

    I think a game based on different, some old and some new, ideas could have better chance to become a true success.

    Most companies will probably fail if they try to be different. But eventually someone will create something that for unexpected reasons becomes very popular. Its not easy to predict or be certain if players will like new features or ideas in a game. But someone will get it right and get lucky. Sooner or later.

     

  • silent-jonessilent-jones FarbeyondPosts: 28Member

    MMO´s fail because they are repetetive, boring and simple minded and those who spend the most time playing them, win, not because their skills improve, simply because they did the boring and simple minded stuff over and over again. And another reason why they fail is, that in most MMO´s ones actions doesnt affect the environment at all. The worlds are static and so deadly boring. There are no cities to conquer, nothing important to achieve. And if there is something to conquer it happens in some instance, so again, it doesnt affect the world one is living and fighting in.

    Playing is about fun and fun is about getting suprised by the unexspected.

    Only Lineage2 did understand this, thats why one could conquer the citites there, but it was only a beginning. Sadly, they didnt develop it any further, on the contrary, Aion was a big backstep.

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    Originally posted by Kyleran


    Originally posted by Darklighter1


    Originally posted by dubyahite



    Originally posted by RefMinor

    . Publishers need to aim lower and make a product they believe in and not just copy/paste WoW in the deluded belief they can replicate success. Make a different game and you might take some jaded WoW players and give them something new and novel that grabs their interest long term.

    I wholeheartedly agree with the red part.  There is no room for a company to be aiming for WoW levels of success. It's just not going to happen. 

     They will maintain a relatively healthy population as well, but if they were shooting for WoW-like numbers then that is probably the biggest mistake they could make. I love the game, but even I know there just isn't going to be a game that can pull in the subs like WoW did. 

    You two hit the nail on the head.  This is exactly what I was getting at.  The rest of you ....not so much.

    Hello Investors. Today we're going to ask you to put $100-300 million of "your"  money into "our" MMORPG.

    Now why might you do this?  Well my friends, one word my friends, 'profit'.  Because in the end isn't that what its' really all about?

    Of course it is.

    Now, our MMORPG is revolutionary in its design.  Rather than copy the tried and true techniques made popular by Blizzard's World of Warcraft title, (you know, billions and billions served) we're so sure players are tired of that design that we're going to throw most of what they do out and replace it with features that we 'know' players really want. (because we're just good like that and we read forums like MMORPG all the time) image

    Now we realize that in the past 8 years, almost every profitable MMORPG made has largely copied the WOW formula, but trust us here, there's no way our new title can fail, our 'vision' is pure and we 'know' it will be the next big thing.

    So, now that we've firmly put to rest your fears and doubts, and you've become 'fan-atics' of our new vision, will you please step over to the table on the right and sign your names to the checks we've already written for you.

    BTW, I forgot to mention, our new vision will not result anywhere near the profitability of WOW, but that's OK right, you'll be happy making a small, sensible profit in order to let us bring our great new MMO to the market right, because that's just the sort of big hearted folks I know you to be.

    Oh, yes, they are made out to my personal bank account, but don't worry, its all just 'company' money in the end, you have nothing to fear. image

     

     

     

    Obviously companies need to give an RoI to the moneymen. However, spending a shitload, trying to make a game that appeals to the maximum number of people and ends up satisfying a small number of people is not the way to do that. First, have the idea you believe in, if it is a good idea chances are it will not cater to everyone and never will, so make the game you believe in, don't cut out its heart to try and appeal to everyone, that way lies failure.
  • eddieg50eddieg50 Tolland, CTPosts: 1,613Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by silent-jones

    MMO´s fail because they are repetetive, boring and simple minded and those who spend the most time playing them, win, not because their skills improve, simply because they did the boring and simple minded stuff over and over again. And another reason why they fail is, that in most MMO´s ones actions doesnt affect the environment at all. The worlds are static and so deadly boring. There are no cities to conquer, nothing important to achieve. And if there is something to conquer it happens in some instance, so again, it doesnt affect the world one is living and fighting in.

    Playing is about fun and fun is about getting suprised by the unexspected.

    Only Lineage2 did understand this, thats why one could conquer the citites there, but it was only a beginning. Sadly, they didnt develop it any further, on the contrary, Aion was a big backstep.

       Actually you have a very valid point , Mmo's by their nature are repetitive. I do think though that the repetitive nature appeals to certain people who after coming home from work or what ever want to relax by playing something simple and repettive. Many people do not want the challenge of playing a Vanguard or EVE.  One of my favorite games was Shadowbane which was a sand box PvP and you had to be on your toes ALL the time-now that appealed to me but not enough people to keep it from failing.   When all is said and done I really feel people play MMO's for the chatting and social, people play single player games to have fun and to be surprised.  I think that is one of the reasons I like SWTOR cause I dont chat much, the social aspect has limited appeal to me (although damn, I do like the small groups in swtor and i have never liked grouping in other games except shadowbane) it is like a single player game with mmo aspects and that appeals to a part of the population

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,991Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by RefMinor

    Originally posted by Kyleran

    Originally posted by Darklighter1


    Originally posted by dubyahite


    Originally posted by RefMinor

    . Publishers need to aim lower and make a product they believe in and not just copy/paste WoW in the deluded belief they can replicate success. Make a different game and you might take some jaded WoW players and give them something new and novel that grabs their interest long term.

    I wholeheartedly agree with the red part.  There is no room for a company to be aiming for WoW levels of success. It's just not going to happen. 

     They will maintain a relatively healthy population as well, but if they were shooting for WoW-like numbers then that is probably the biggest mistake they could make. I love the game, but even I know there just isn't going to be a game that can pull in the subs like WoW did. 

    You two hit the nail on the head.  This is exactly what I was getting at.  The rest of you ....not so much.

    Hello Investors. Today we're going to ask you to put $100-300 million of "your"  money into "our" MMORPG.

    Now why might you do this?  Well my friends, one word my friends, 'profit'.  Because in the end isn't that what its' really all about?

    Of course it is.

    Now, our MMORPG is revolutionary in its design.  Rather than copy the tried and true techniques made popular by Blizzard's World of Warcraft title, (you know, billions and billions served) we're so sure players are tired of that design that we're going to throw most of what they do out and replace it with features that we 'know' players really want. (because we're just good like that and we read forums like MMORPG all the time) image

    Now we realize that in the past 8 years, almost every profitable MMORPG made has largely copied the WOW formula, but trust us here, there's no way our new title can fail, our 'vision' is pure and we 'know' it will be the next big thing.

    So, now that we've firmly put to rest your fears and doubts, and you've become 'fan-atics' of our new vision, will you please step over to the table on the right and sign your names to the checks we've already written for you.

    BTW, I forgot to mention, our new vision will not result anywhere near the profitability of WOW, but that's OK right, you'll be happy making a small, sensible profit in order to let us bring our great new MMO to the market right, because that's just the sort of big hearted folks I know you to be.

    Oh, yes, they are made out to my personal bank account, but don't worry, its all just 'company' money in the end, you have nothing to fear. image

     

     

     

    Obviously companies need to give an RoI to the moneymen. However, spending a shitload, trying to make a game that appeals to the maximum number of people and ends up satisfying a small number of people is not the way to do that. First, have the idea you believe in, if it is a good idea chances are it will not cater to everyone and never will, so make the game you believe in, don't cut out its heart to try and appeal to everyone, that way lies failure.

    While I agree with you in principal, the people who invest this sort of money do not think like this, as evidence look at recent posts that came out of 38 Studios and how their design is so heavily influenced by WOW and it's predecessors.

    As to comments that no other MMO has reached WOW's popularity, most of the clones at the very least make their initial investment back and then continue on with a profit which in the end is all investors really want to be assured of.

    True, greater risks in design 'might' result in greater rewards, but more often than not the safer, surer path of return is taken.

    Besides, for quite a while now people believed that if one only made a quality WOW clone, it would be as successful as WOW (because some of the earlier ones really did sort of fail to deliver in this area) but I think Rift and even SWTOR proved that there's more to the secret of success than just focusing on this aspect.

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • obiiobii WienPosts: 779Member Uncommon

    I disagree.

    Comming from UO with server crashes, exploits and an expansion that introduced over 1000! new bugs (AOS), WOW with its almost bugfree gameplay and only minor server issues (UO had often crashes with 6 hours reverts, on their expansion release dates servers were unplayable for 1-2 weeks (trammel and again AOS)) was a fresh wind.

     

    Begone the days of - We know it is unfinished and buggy, but we release nonetheless.

     

    Yes, it set the bar quite high. So hight that 5+ years after WOW games still struggle a lot to match it.

    But then as customers should we not expect some quality from games?

     

    And yes, I would love to play a cool sandbox game, but sadly I still think that even as themepark wow is more sandboxy than many other mmos out there :(

  • BlindchanceBlindchance WhywouldyouliketoknowPosts: 1,081Member

    Don't blame WoW for the market leaving creative decission in hands of money counters.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    Originally posted by Blindchance

    Don't blame WoW for the market leaving creative decission in hands of money counters.

    Do we know that's ever happened?

    I've yet to see a CFO listed in the creative departments at all.  Now, an EA micromanager may be leaning on the creative departments fairly hard, but generally the lead developers get fired only after failing under their own steam.

    Players find it difficult to believe that a creative manager can screw up so very badly all on his own; players find it easy to ignore a prepoderance of evidence that they can, and do, fail really hard all the time.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • OberholzerOberholzer Hasbrouck Heights, NJPosts: 498Member
    Originally posted by Darklighter1

    To all the people saying SWTOR is what's wrong with the MMO genre, let me let you in on a little secret....
    The worst thing that has ever happened to the MMO genre is...
     
    WORLD OF WARCRAFT
     
    Now every MMO that comes out is compared to WoW. If it doesn't have 10 million subscribers on Day 1, it's a failure. If it has bugs, it's fail because WoW is basically bug free (nevermind WoW has had 8 years to fix them!).
    For this reason, game companies will do drastic and game breaking changes to their game ($OE SWG NGE fiasco) or just outright shut down a game just because it isn't the next WoW size game.
    WoW is (or was....if you don't play anymore) an amazing and fun game.  It just set the bar too high for the genre as a whole.

     

    1) The reason so many MMO's fail is they flat out suck balls.
    2) Blizzard didn't force other companies to do anything. I know people want to blame them for everything ever up it's just silly.
    3) Get over SWG already
  • Darklighter1Darklighter1 Salem, NHPosts: 250Member Common

    Originally posted by eayes

    Originally posted by Darklighter1

    To all the people saying SWTOR is what's wrong with the MMO genre, let me let you in on a little secret....

    The worst thing that has ever happened to the MMO genre is...

     

    WORLD OF WARCRAFT

     

    Now every MMO that comes out is compared to WoW. If it doesn't have 10 million subscribers on Day 1, it's a failure. If it has bugs, it's fail because WoW is basically bug free (nevermind WoW has had 8 years to fix them!).

    For this reason, game companies will do drastic and game breaking changes to their game ($OE SWG NGE fiasco) or just outright shut down a game just because it isn't the next WoW size game.

    WoW is (or was....if you don't play anymore) an amazing and fun game.  It just set the bar too high for the genre as a whole.

     

    1) The reason so many MMO's fail is they flat out suck balls. 2) Blizzard didn't force other companies to do anything. I know people want to blame them for everything ever up it's just silly. 3) Get over SWG already

    Another example of "I didn't read your post I just saw shiney things".  Example ....1) "suck balls" comment  2)  Never said Blizzard forced anyone to do anything  3)  I used SWG as an example to prove my point.  I am over it, trust me.

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