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The reason why many MMO's fail....

Darklighter1Darklighter1 Salem, NHPosts: 250Member Uncommon

To all the people saying SWTOR is what's wrong with the MMO genre, let me let you in on a little secret....

The worst thing that has ever happened to the MMO genre is...

 

WORLD OF WARCRAFT

 

Now every MMO that comes out is compared to WoW. If it doesn't have 10 million subscribers on Day 1, it's a failure. If it has bugs, it's fail because WoW is basically bug free (nevermind WoW has had 8 years to fix them!).

For this reason, game companies will do drastic and game breaking changes to their game ($OE SWG NGE fiasco) or just outright shut down a game just because it isn't the next WoW size game.

WoW is (or was....if you don't play anymore) an amazing and fun game.  It just set the bar too high for the genre as a whole.

«13

Comments

  • ButtskiButtski NilPosts: 185Member Uncommon

  • dubyahitedubyahite Lincoln, NEPosts: 2,483Member

    This ignores the fact that the MMO market was a fraction of what it became because of WoW. 

     

    It is common wisdome that WoW brought in a large number of players to the MMO space that otherwise were not interested in playing these games. 

     

    You may not consider that a good thing, but the fact is that money talks, and wow players have spent a lot of money altogether. 

     

     

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  • ZylaxxZylaxx Erlanger, KYPosts: 2,574Member

    No whats wrong with MMO's is companies like Bioware sucking at the teets of Blizzard in hopes of making that almighty $$$.  Instead of focusing on good games, they release rehashed failed WoW clones trying to "cash in".  Companies like Bioware have no respect for the genre and the players that inhabit them instead they see that Blizzard has the GDP of a European country and get all f**king greedy.

    Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online

    Playing: GW2
    Waiting on: TESO
    Next Flop: Planetside 2
    Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.

    image

  • Darklighter1Darklighter1 Salem, NHPosts: 250Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by dubyahite

    This ignores the fact that the MMO market was a fraction of what it became because of WoW. 

     

    It is common wisdome that WoW brought in a large number of players to the MMO space that otherwise were not interested in playing these games. 

     

    You may not consider that a good thing, but the fact is that money talks, and wow players have spent a lot of money altogether. 

     

     

    Very true.  My point was that WoW causes good games to become bad games.  Or shut down entirely.  Money talks ....and everyone wants WoW size money.

  • Darklighter1Darklighter1 Salem, NHPosts: 250Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Zylaxx

    No whats wrong with MMO's is companies like Bioware sucking at the teets of Blizzard in hopes of making that almighty $$$.  Instead of focusing on good games, they release rehashed failed WoW clones trying to "cash in".  Companies like Bioware have no respect for the genre and the players that inhabit them instead they see that Blizzard has the GDP of a European country and get all f**king greedy.

    You just agreed with me without even realizing it. 

  • ZylaxxZylaxx Erlanger, KYPosts: 2,574Member

    Originally posted by Darklighter1

    Originally posted by Zylaxx

    No whats wrong with MMO's is companies like Bioware sucking at the teets of Blizzard in hopes of making that almighty $$$.  Instead of focusing on good games, they release rehashed failed WoW clones trying to "cash in".  Companies like Bioware have no respect for the genre and the players that inhabit them instead they see that Blizzard has the GDP of a European country and get all f**king greedy.

    You just agreed with me without even realizing it. 

    Not really.  Blizzard isnt the problem, companies like Bioware are the problem.

    Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online

    Playing: GW2
    Waiting on: TESO
    Next Flop: Planetside 2
    Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.

    image

  • ElminzterElminzter MelbournePosts: 202Member

    Originally posted by Darklighter1

    Originally posted by dubyahite

    This ignores the fact that the MMO market was a fraction of what it became because of WoW. 

     

    It is common wisdome that WoW brought in a large number of players to the MMO space that otherwise were not interested in playing these games. 

     

    You may not consider that a good thing, but the fact is that money talks, and wow players have spent a lot of money altogether. 

     

     

    Very true.  My point was that WoW causes good games to become bad games.  Or shut down entirely.  Money talks ....and everyone wants WoW size money.

    well wont they have to work for it and not shamelessly copy other's hardwork.....

  • Loser60Loser60 VilniusPosts: 170Member

    Oh please. Blame it on WoW because some games try to copy it for succes.

    Even though WoW wasn't my 1st MMO, it was probably the most fun mmorpg I have ever played. Maybe because I had a great guild and a lot of friends. Still, MMO's fail because they are either released unfinished or they try to copy a lot of WoWs features. I am not talking about grindfest games, those fail in the west mostly because people don't like grinding. And tMMOs don't really fail, they just don't live up to peoples expectations.

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    Your point is valid, many publishers see WoWs success and like Bioware believe you need to copy it and you will get that success. However, no one will ever get that success again, it was a fluke, right product, right time, copying WoW just takes some people jaded with WoW into your game and makes them get bored fast and move on to another game. Publishers need to aim lower and make a product they believe in and not just copy/paste WoW in the deluded belief they can replicate success. Make a different game and you might take some jaded WoW players and give them something new and novel that grabs their interest long term.
  • dubyahitedubyahite Lincoln, NEPosts: 2,483Member

    Originally posted by Elminzter

    Originally posted by Darklighter1


    Originally posted by dubyahite

    This ignores the fact that the MMO market was a fraction of what it became because of WoW. 

     

    It is common wisdome that WoW brought in a large number of players to the MMO space that otherwise were not interested in playing these games. 

     

    You may not consider that a good thing, but the fact is that money talks, and wow players have spent a lot of money altogether. 

     

     

    Very true.  My point was that WoW causes good games to become bad games.  Or shut down entirely.  Money talks ....and everyone wants WoW size money.

    well wont they have to work for it and not shamelessly copy other's hardwork.....

    I don't think it's as simple as that.  If you're aiming for that large of a mass market appeal, you almost have to consider WoW players.  I don't think it's a matter of shameless copying. WoW players are very very very picky about the features in an MMO they might try out.  They frequently get upset if the game doesn't have specific features from WoW that they love. They often go back to wow when that game doesn't provide them the "WoW experience."

     

    It's a tough line to walk. I think the problem is that companies see WoW players as a "potential market" that they can tap into. If you attempt to tap into that market then there are many things that the consumer expects to be present in the game or they will quickly quit. 

    The problem with this is that I don't think WoW players are really a "potential market."  They are deeply embedded in the wow ecosystem and it is tough to pull them away and even tougher to keep them.  On the other hand there are many things that Blizzard does on a regular basis that pull them back into WoW. 

     

    The other option for a company seeking that wow level of success to try to do is attempt to pull new players into the genre. Get the casual players, or provide something that would attract them.

     

    We can argue all day about if Bioware was successful at this or not, but I think it's clear that they attempted to appeal to both of these markets. The SW ip alone can be used to pull in new players, while the gameplay is meant to provide an environment that any of the 10 million WoW players can feel comfortable within.  

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  • dubyahitedubyahite Lincoln, NEPosts: 2,483Member

    Originally posted by RefMinor

    Your point is valid, many publishers see WoWs success and like Bioware believe you need to copy it and you will get that success. However, no one will ever get that success again, it was a fluke, right product, right time, copying WoW just takes some people jaded with WoW into your game and makes them get bored fast and move on to another game. Publishers need to aim lower and make a product they believe in and not just copy/paste WoW in the deluded belief they can replicate success. Make a different game and you might take some jaded WoW players and give them something new and novel that grabs their interest long term.

    I wholeheartedly agree with the red part.  There is no room for a company to be aiming for WoW levels of success. It's just not going to happen. 

     

    What I think can happen though is to aim lower, make a great game, and create a good plan for growth over time.

     

    The problem I see with this is that it would require much smaller budgets than the AAA titles are working with. Smaller budget is going to affect the game in many ways. It's a tough position to be in, especially for a game at launch.  MMO players expect a lot from these companies these days. Very few small budget MMO's are able to create successful growth over the years. They are frequently extremely buggy and lack content (even more than people would argue SWTOR fits that description).

     

    These games are extremely complex. There is no genre in gaming that requires the devlopment time and financial investment that these games require.

     

    There are a few companies, new and old, that strike this balance very well in my opinon. An older game that nailed it would be Eve. A newer company that I think does very well in this regard is Trion. I don't particularly like either of their games, but Eve is the obvious example of starting small and growing over time. 

    I believe Trion aimed for a smaller market all along. They are a very smart company and they understand the MMO market better than most I believe. They invested the right amount of money, didn't go overboard and attempt to get eleventy billion subs to be profitable, but they still provide a very high polish product that they take care of very well. The rate at which they provide content is very good.

     

    I think SWTOR aimed way too high from the beginning, but there are so many factors that I think prevented them from aiming lower. The IP being the biggest factor, but also the style of game they were making (large amounts of VO and cutscenes). The budget for their design is inherently going to be high which means they need a high amount of "success."   I don't think these things will kill SWTOR. The game will live on and I can see them providing a level of content that a company like Trion provides over the coming years as well.

    They will maintain a relatively healthy population as well, but if they were shooting for WoW-like numbers then that is probably the biggest mistake they could make. I love the game, but even I know there just isn't going to be a game that can pull in the subs like WoW did. 

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  • stragen001stragen001 ReadingPosts: 1,720Member

    Originally posted by Zylaxx

    No whats wrong with MMO's is companies like EA sucking at the teets of Blizzard in hopes of making that almighty $$$.  Instead of focusing on good games, they release rehashed failed WoW clones trying to "cash in".  Companies like EA have no respect for the genre and the players that inhabit them instead they see that Blizzard has the GDP of a European country and get all f**king greedy.

    /fixed

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  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    Originally posted by dubyahite


    Originally posted by RefMinor

    Your point is valid, many publishers see WoWs success and like Bioware believe you need to copy it and you will get that success. However, no one will ever get that success again, it was a fluke, right product, right time, copying WoW just takes some people jaded with WoW into your game and makes them get bored fast and move on to another game. Publishers need to aim lower and make a product they believe in and not just copy/paste WoW in the deluded belief they can replicate success. Make a different game and you might take some jaded WoW players and give them something new and novel that grabs their interest long term.

    I wholeheartedly agree with the red part.  There is no room for a company to be aiming for WoW levels of success. It's just not going to happen. 

     

    What I think can happen though is to aim lower, make a great game, and create a good plan for growth over time.

     

    The problem I see with this is that it would require much smaller budgets than the AAA titles are working with. Smaller budget is going to affect the game in many ways. It's a tough position to be in, especially for a game at launch.  MMO players expect a lot from these companies these days. Very few small budget MMO's are able to create successful growth over the years. They are frequently extremely buggy and lack content (even more than people would argue SWTOR fits that description).

     

    These games are extremely complex. There is no genre in gaming that requires the devlopment time and financial investment that these games require.

     

    There are a few companies, new and old, that strike this balance very well in my opinon. An older game that nailed it would be Eve. A newer company that I think does very well in this regard is Trion. I don't particularly like either of their games, but Eve is the obvious example of starting small and growing over time. 

    I believe Trion aimed for a smaller market all along. They are a very smart company and they understand the MMO market better than most I believe. They invested the right amount of money, didn't go overboard and attempt to get eleventy billion subs to be profitable, but they still provide a very high polish product that they take care of very well. The rate at which they provide content is very good.

     

    I think SWTOR aimed way too high from the beginning, but there are so many factors that I think prevented them from aiming lower. The IP being the biggest factor, but also the style of game they were making (large amounts of VO and cutscenes). The budget for their design is inherently going to be high which means they need a high amount of "success."   I don't think these things will kill SWTOR. The game will live on and I can see them providing a level of content that a company like Trion provides over the coming years as well.

    They will maintain a relatively healthy population as well, but if they were shooting for WoW-like numbers then that is probably the biggest mistake they could make. I love the game, but even I know there just isn't going to be a game that can pull in the subs like WoW did. 

     

    It's the bit just after the red I think is the most important, Developers need to believe in their product. It is clear that Bioware believed in the VO and cutscenes of SWTOR and tried to copy/paste the bits of WoW they thought were needed for the rest. They did not believe in the MMO part of the game they created, which is where they came unstuck. I agree with you about Trion, whilst they have copied WoW to an extent you can see they believe in their product and seem to get what needs to be improved by all accounts (I am a sandbox player mainly so Rift would not be for me.) I think they have a chance to slowly grow their product again upto EvE like figures which will provide both profit and an income stream to start new developments.
  • Darklighter1Darklighter1 Salem, NHPosts: 250Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by dubyahite

    Originally posted by RefMinor

    Your point is valid, many publishers see WoWs success and like Bioware believe you need to copy it and you will get that success. However, no one will ever get that success again, it was a fluke, right product, right time, copying WoW just takes some people jaded with WoW into your game and makes them get bored fast and move on to another game. Publishers need to aim lower and make a product they believe in and not just copy/paste WoW in the deluded belief they can replicate success. Make a different game and you might take some jaded WoW players and give them something new and novel that grabs their interest long term.

    I wholeheartedly agree with the red part.  There is no room for a company to be aiming for WoW levels of success. It's just not going to happen. 

     

    What I think can happen though is to aim lower, make a great game, and create a good plan for growth over time.

     

    The problem I see with this is that it would require much smaller budgets than the AAA titles are working with. Smaller budget is going to affect the game in many ways. It's a tough position to be in, especially for a game at launch.  MMO players expect a lot from these companies these days. Very few small budget MMO's are able to create successful growth over the years. They are frequently extremely buggy and lack content (even more than people would argue SWTOR fits that description).

     

    These games are extremely complex. There is no genre in gaming that requires the devlopment time and financial investment that these games require.

     

    There are a few companies, new and old, that strike this balance very well in my opinon. An older game that nailed it would be Eve. A newer company that I think does very well in this regard is Trion. I don't particularly like either of their games, but Eve is the obvious example of starting small and growing over time. 

    I believe Trion aimed for a smaller market all along. They are a very smart company and they understand the MMO market better than most I believe. They invested the right amount of money, didn't go overboard and attempt to get eleventy billion subs to be profitable, but they still provide a very high polish product that they take care of very well. The rate at which they provide content is very good.

     

    I think SWTOR aimed way too high from the beginning, but there are so many factors that I think prevented them from aiming lower. The IP being the biggest factor, but also the style of game they were making (large amounts of VO and cutscenes). The budget for their design is inherently going to be high which means they need a high amount of "success."   I don't think these things will kill SWTOR. The game will live on and I can see them providing a level of content that a company like Trion provides over the coming years as well.

    They will maintain a relatively healthy population as well, but if they were shooting for WoW-like numbers then that is probably the biggest mistake they could make. I love the game, but even I know there just isn't going to be a game that can pull in the subs like WoW did. 

    You two hit the nail on the head.  This is exactly what I was getting at.  The rest of you ....not so much.

  • Darklighter1Darklighter1 Salem, NHPosts: 250Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by RefMinor

    Originally posted by dubyahite

    Originally posted by RefMinor

    Your point is valid, many publishers see WoWs success and like Bioware believe you need to copy it and you will get that success. However, no one will ever get that success again, it was a fluke, right product, right time, copying WoW just takes some people jaded with WoW into your game and makes them get bored fast and move on to another game. Publishers need to aim lower and make a product they believe in and not just copy/paste WoW in the deluded belief they can replicate success. Make a different game and you might take some jaded WoW players and give them something new and novel that grabs their interest long term.

    I wholeheartedly agree with the red part.  There is no room for a company to be aiming for WoW levels of success. It's just not going to happen. 

     

    What I think can happen though is to aim lower, make a great game, and create a good plan for growth over time.

     

    The problem I see with this is that it would require much smaller budgets than the AAA titles are working with. Smaller budget is going to affect the game in many ways. It's a tough position to be in, especially for a game at launch.  MMO players expect a lot from these companies these days. Very few small budget MMO's are able to create successful growth over the years. They are frequently extremely buggy and lack content (even more than people would argue SWTOR fits that description).

     

    These games are extremely complex. There is no genre in gaming that requires the devlopment time and financial investment that these games require.

     

    There are a few companies, new and old, that strike this balance very well in my opinon. An older game that nailed it would be Eve. A newer company that I think does very well in this regard is Trion. I don't particularly like either of their games, but Eve is the obvious example of starting small and growing over time. 

    I believe Trion aimed for a smaller market all along. They are a very smart company and they understand the MMO market better than most I believe. They invested the right amount of money, didn't go overboard and attempt to get eleventy billion subs to be profitable, but they still provide a very high polish product that they take care of very well. The rate at which they provide content is very good.

     

    I think SWTOR aimed way too high from the beginning, but there are so many factors that I think prevented them from aiming lower. The IP being the biggest factor, but also the style of game they were making (large amounts of VO and cutscenes). The budget for their design is inherently going to be high which means they need a high amount of "success."   I don't think these things will kill SWTOR. The game will live on and I can see them providing a level of content that a company like Trion provides over the coming years as well.

    They will maintain a relatively healthy population as well, but if they were shooting for WoW-like numbers then that is probably the biggest mistake they could make. I love the game, but even I know there just isn't going to be a game that can pull in the subs like WoW did. 

     

    It's the bit just after the red I think is the most important, Developers need to believe in their product. It is clear that Bioware believed in the VO and cutscenes of SWTOR and tried to copy/paste the bits of WoW they thought were needed for the rest. They did not believe in the MMO part of the game they created, which is where they came unstuck. I agree with you about Trion, whilst they have copied WoW to an extent you can see they believe in their product and seem to get what needs to be improved by all accounts (I am a sandbox player mainly so Rift would not be for me.) I think they have a chance to slowly grow their product again upto EvE like figures which will provide both profit and an income stream to start new developments.

    I think every MMO post-WoW is going to make many things similar to WoW, but I disagree that it is just stealing or malicious.  I think it's to make the transition from WoW to the new game an easy one.  If it's totally foreign, many players will get frustrated and quit.  And a large majority of MMO fans play/played WoW for years.

  • Dark_SkuraiDark_Skurai west palm beach, FLPosts: 106Member

    Blaming WoW and saying it set the genre on a straight path is so ignorant it hurts.

    It's like saying "God of War had such wide appeal that it's prevented any action game from advancing from it's formula!"

    "Call of Duty ruined FPS because everyone wants to be exactly like them now!"

    "Final Fantasy is the bane of all RPG because every RPG that comes out now is a turn based fighter and no one wants to change that!"

     

    If your logic cannot apply to other occurances which are the same, then your logic fails. SWTOR failed because it uses an aged alpha of an engine that prevents them from doing many things, it failed because bioware believed a story could carry bad PvE and PvP. It failed because it allowed players to hit the cap way to fast preventing them from steadily fixing bugs as they came up. 

    I mean, yes, WoW had a rought start. But, it's PvE was in place, it's PvP was fun without being completly broken, and the bulk of the players took so much time to get to the cap that blizz was able ot steadily work things out. All the while they weren't giving out mass bans for simply playing the game (can't farm, can't play the auction, can't be in certain zones unless you're high enough etc...) and generally acting like they were the god of MMO and belittling their fans. 

    SWTOR was a failure based on their own actions, not blizzards.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,596Member Uncommon

    I liked WoW. I won't bash it. It wasn't a bad game. Not even a bad one to copy. But WoW was done. It's been played. Everyone's tired of it.

    Compare Rift to SWTOR. Both clones, both are slammed for non originality but one is recognized for a quality product in spite of that and the other is recognized as a POS cash grab. (public perception, not mine. I never played SWTOR)

    BTW, I play Rift and I don't think its an example of what's wrong. I think it's an example of what's right. The fact that we need a new style of MMO has nothing to do with being a quality product.

  • Darklighter1Darklighter1 Salem, NHPosts: 250Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Dark_Skurai

    Blaming WoW and saying it set the genre on a straight path is so ignorant it hurts.

    It's like saying "God of War had such wide appeal that it's prevented any action game from advancing from it's formula!"

    "Call of Duty ruined FPS because everyone wants to be exactly like them now!"

    "Final Fantasy is the bane of all RPG because every RPG that comes out now is a turn based fighter and no one wants to change that!"

     

    If your logic cannot apply to other occurances which are the same, then your logic fails. SWTOR failed because it uses an aged alpha of an engine that prevents them from doing many things, it failed because bioware believed a story could carry bad PvE and PvP. It failed because it allowed players to hit the cap way to fast preventing them from steadily fixing bugs as they came up. 

    I mean, yes, WoW had a rought start. But, it's PvE was in place, it's PvP was fun without being completly broken, and the bulk of the players took so much time to get to the cap that blizz was able ot steadily work things out. All the while they weren't giving out mass bans for simply playing the game (can't farm, can't play the auction, can't be in certain zones unless you're high enough etc...) and generally acting like they were the god of MMO and belittling their fans. 

    SWTOR was a failure based on their own actions, not blizzards.

    Comparing a MMO to a single player game is where you went wrong.  A MMO is judged on subscribers.  A single player game is judged on box sales.  They are not the same thing. 

  • DrakxiiDrakxii Waxahachie, TXPosts: 594Member

    So it was blizzard's fault that SWTOR was linear, rushed, andlacking features?

    So it was blizzard's fault that WAR past Tier 1 was empyty, hammerer got removed and pbp was blah?

    So it was blizzard's fault that AOC was rushed to shipping and lack hugh amounts of content?

    So it was blizzard's fault that Rift was linear and had boring pvp?

    etc..

     

    Yeah....

     

    Also your arguement is flawed as no one calls EvE a failure even though it only has a few 100,000s.

    I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.

  • Darklighter1Darklighter1 Salem, NHPosts: 250Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Drakxii

    So it was blizzard's fault that SWTOR was linear, rushed, andlacking features?

    WoW is linear and is successful.  You don't like linear....apparently 10+ million do.

    So it was blizzard's fault that WAR past Tier 1 was empyty, hammerer got removed and pbp was blah?

    New game issues.  Give them time to fix/add/etc

    So it was blizzard's fault that AOC was rushed to shipping and lack hugh amounts of content?

    Can't comment on this.  Never played AOC.

    So it was blizzard's fault that Rift was linear and had boring pvp?

    Again, you don't like linear.  Rift wasn't for you. 

    etc..

     

    Yeah....

     

    Also your arguement is flawed as no one calls EvE a failure even though it only has a few 100,000s.

    You're right.  CCP is part of the minority and I applaud them for that.  They said "We are happy with what we have and we're going to make our game OUR way!"  Most companies don't, which was my point.

     

  • DrakxiiDrakxii Waxahachie, TXPosts: 594Member

    Originally posted by Darklighter1

    Originally posted by Drakxii

    WoW is linear and is successful.  You don't like linear....apparently 10+ million do.

    No Wow is a themepark, I get to pick where I go and what I do.  In SWTOR I go from planet to planet in a set coruse because the game tells me I have to.

     

    New game issues.  Give them time to fix/add/etc

    If I am paying 50+ dollars for a game and 15 a month I want to have atleast enough content for me to level up two characters on one side with out having to repeat every quest and have atleast 2 basic hard raids.   You know like WoW did when it launched, years ago.

     

    Again, you don't like linear.  Rift wasn't for you. 

    Again one starting zone per side, one level 15 zone per side, one level 25 zone per side, etc...

     

    You're right.  CCP is part of the minority and I applaud them for that.  They said "We are happy with what we have and we're going to make our game OUR way!"  Most companies don't, which was my point.

    My point is that it isn't WoW's fault that investors/COEs/publishers/devlopers are stupid and push out games before they are ready

     

     

    I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    Originally posted by Darklighter1


    Originally posted by RefMinor


    Originally posted by dubyahite


    Originally posted by RefMinor

    Your point is valid, many publishers see WoWs success and like Bioware believe you need to copy it and you will get that success. However, no one will ever get that success again, it was a fluke, right product, right time, copying WoW just takes some people jaded with WoW into your game and makes them get bored fast and move on to another game. Publishers need to aim lower and make a product they believe in and not just copy/paste WoW in the deluded belief they can replicate success. Make a different game and you might take some jaded WoW players and give them something new and novel that grabs their interest long term.

    I wholeheartedly agree with the red part.  There is no room for a company to be aiming for WoW levels of success. It's just not going to happen. 

     

    What I think can happen though is to aim lower, make a great game, and create a good plan for growth over time.

     

    The problem I see with this is that it would require much smaller budgets than the AAA titles are working with. Smaller budget is going to affect the game in many ways. It's a tough position to be in, especially for a game at launch.  MMO players expect a lot from these companies these days. Very few small budget MMO's are able to create successful growth over the years. They are frequently extremely buggy and lack content (even more than people would argue SWTOR fits that description).

     

    These games are extremely complex. There is no genre in gaming that requires the devlopment time and financial investment that these games require.

     

    There are a few companies, new and old, that strike this balance very well in my opinon. An older game that nailed it would be Eve. A newer company that I think does very well in this regard is Trion. I don't particularly like either of their games, but Eve is the obvious example of starting small and growing over time. 

    I believe Trion aimed for a smaller market all along. They are a very smart company and they understand the MMO market better than most I believe. They invested the right amount of money, didn't go overboard and attempt to get eleventy billion subs to be profitable, but they still provide a very high polish product that they take care of very well. The rate at which they provide content is very good.

     

    I think SWTOR aimed way too high from the beginning, but there are so many factors that I think prevented them from aiming lower. The IP being the biggest factor, but also the style of game they were making (large amounts of VO and cutscenes). The budget for their design is inherently going to be high which means they need a high amount of "success."   I don't think these things will kill SWTOR. The game will live on and I can see them providing a level of content that a company like Trion provides over the coming years as well.

    They will maintain a relatively healthy population as well, but if they were shooting for WoW-like numbers then that is probably the biggest mistake they could make. I love the game, but even I know there just isn't going to be a game that can pull in the subs like WoW did. 

     

    It's the bit just after the red I think is the most important, Developers need to believe in their product. It is clear that Bioware believed in the VO and cutscenes of SWTOR and tried to copy/paste the bits of WoW they thought were needed for the rest. They did not believe in the MMO part of the game they created, which is where they came unstuck. I agree with you about Trion, whilst they have copied WoW to an extent you can see they believe in their product and seem to get what needs to be improved by all accounts (I am a sandbox player mainly so Rift would not be for me.) I think they have a chance to slowly grow their product again upto EvE like figures which will provide both profit and an income stream to start new developments.

    I think every MMO post-WoW is going to make many things similar to WoW, but I disagree that it is just stealing or malicious.  I think it's to make the transition from WoW to the new game an easy one.  If it's totally foreign, many players will get frustrated and quit.  And a large majority of MMO fans play/played WoW for years.

     

    Not really sure where you got that from my post, nothing in it indicates I believe any actions were "stealing" or "malicious"
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,596Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Drakxii

    Originally posted by Darklighter1


    Originally posted by Drakxii

    WoW is linear and is successful.  You don't like linear....apparently 10+ million do.

    No Wow is a themepark, I get to pick where I go and what I do.  In SWTOR I go from planet to planet in a set coruse because the game tells me I have to.

     The nature of a Themepark. Not a design flaw but desiggn style. People do like it.

    New game issues.  Give them time to fix/add/etc

    If I am paying 50+ dollars for a game and 15 a month I want to have atleast enough content for me to level up two characters on one side with out having to repeat every quest and have atleast 2 basic hard raids.   You know like WoW did when it launched, years ago.

     When WoW launched, no one was thinking about hurry up and get to endgame or leveling alts. It took a long time. The fact that people were capping SWTOR 3 weeks into Launch had nothing to do with WoW.

    Again, you don't like linear.  Rift wasn't for you. 

    Again one starting zone per side, one level 15 zone per side, one level 25 zone per side, etc...

    Have you even thought about the flip side? When I started WoW, I played with my brother, he started a Nelf Hunter and I started a Human Paladin. We couldn't play together until levl 20. Sorry, this is not a problem to me.

    You're right.  CCP is part of the minority and I applaud them for that.  They said "We are happy with what we have and we're going to make our game OUR way!"  Most companies don't, which was my point.

    My point is that it isn't WoW's fault that investors/COEs/publishers/devlopers are stupid and push out games before they are ready

    EVE is not a theme  park, it's success is measure differently. The number of accounts in EVE far exceed the number of players. Because of PLEX and some who spend a great deal of money combined with the fact that EVE has the biggest currency sink in all of MMOs, it's a different animal nad I am not sure why we are comparing it to WoW.

     

     

     

  • PurutzilPurutzil East Stroudsburg, PAPosts: 2,925Member Uncommon

    No, SWTOR fails because it attempted to be so generic, that it redefined what MMORPG is. Its funny seeing how a scifi themed game can be so generic and so mediocer in so many ways. Everything just seems so bland once you get beyond the joys of the rave stick party and beloved Starwars brand.

     

    Is it bad? No, its not bad. Is it good? No, its not that good either. It sits in the middle road where it shouldn't be shunned while not praised. Sure its getting a lot of negative feedback that it probably doesn't completely warrent but its to be expected of a game so hyped up that released in such a disapointing scope. To be fair, Bioware did dabble in a genre they didn't have experience with and played it safe, but that only helped to further make ToR take a back seat behind a majority of the latest 'big name' titles that were released.

     

    Again, not  FF14, but its nothing your likely to be praising about in 5 years for being 'revolutionary' or 'great'. 

  • GolelornGolelorn Hiding From Social Media Peeping Toms, ALPosts: 1,099Member Uncommon

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but DDO is FPS style. Its cool for a few weeks, then you get carpal tunnel playing a melee.

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