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Why is everyone so obsessed with "balance" and "fairness"?

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  • evolver1972evolver1972 Port Orchard, WAPosts: 1,118Member

    Originally posted by Sentime

    Originally posted by Cecropia

    The "everybody gets a medal" "everyone is a winner" generation has grown up and is now playing mainstream mmos. That's my guess, anyways.

     

    Exactly.  People are shocked at the concent of winner and loser, so now everyone loses.

    How is balance and fairness the same as "everybody gets a medal"?  The NFL is set up with a fair and balanced system (same rules, salary cap, etc.).  Are you going to tell me that "everybody gets a medal" in the NFL (or the NHL, etc.)?  No, they don't.  We are not talking about everyone being the same or everyone having to win.  We are talking about making games so that people win based on their skill rather than their stats.

     

    How fun would the NFL be if teams won because they had better helmets and shoulder pads?  I'd much rather see that they all have the same equipment and a level playing field and the team with the most skill, or drive, or whatever other intangible, wins.

     

    So, no, it's not about "everybody gets a medal", it's about "if all stats are the same and you got owned, that player was better at the game than you".

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  • BetakodoBetakodo Poor land, FLPosts: 338Member

    Balance for PvP skills is what people want. Else, everyone just uses the over powered class just to win.

    Fairness as in not having buy to win. I've seen stupid iterations of trying to be fair to the casual gamer though, like FFXIV's exp fatigue and guildleve (Quest limit of 8 a day) system. That was stupid. I agree that stuff shouldn't be a gimme, but there should be challenging stuff that doesn't require you to get 40 people you don't like together to do something.

  • DoomedfoxDoomedfox Elmhurts, NYPosts: 685Member Common

    Originally posted by Corehaven

    Probably because no matter the genre, mmo or otherwise, its still a GAME.  I'll repeat that.  Its a game. 

     

    Or do people enjoy playing chess where one player gets all the pieces and the other has to remove their queen, knights, and bishops before they even begin to play? 

     

    If some classes are overpowered whats the point of playing anything else other than those classes? 

    Hmmm but would a Queen not be overpowered compared to a pawn?

    Yet no one complained about it so far (at least not the chess games i played).

  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,762Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by ShakyMo

    You don't need this balance thing for great pvp.



    Daoc is the best pvp mmo to date (well best mmo full stop)



    It has terrible balance

          Thats because DAoC was balanced for realm v realm warfare and the players grouped up to play......It really wasn't until WoW came around that balance became an issue...Before that we were all fine with imbalance because alot of us started with games that were far from balanced like EQ and D&D.

  • Sora2810Sora2810 New Columbia, PAPosts: 567Member

    Ever watch a real immature fight, notice the loser calls the winner a cheater? Same principle. Fairness is one thing, If there is no possible ability combo or any way I could kill a certain class; that's unfair. If there's a way, but its more tedious; than it's fair.

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  • MehveMehve Kitchener, ONPosts: 487Member

    Originally posted by Banaghran

    Originally posted by Mehve

    The problem is that PvE ultimately centers around people killing something with 1) a limited variety of logical actions, and 2) with a massive health pool. And in the vast majority of games, this is generally done through active manipulation of the AI, turning it predictable enough that an otherwise impossible opponent can be defeated. Otherwise known as "The Holy Trinity".

    PvP, on the other hand, involves killing people who are 1) capable of behaving illogically, instinctively, and unpredictably, but 2) have a much smaller health pool. Thus, a move that gives you the opportunity to take off 0.5% of a boss monster health could be fatal to another player. A move that causes a boss monster to target you will be completely ignored by a human player.

    Completely different environments, in other words. And it's virtually impossible to design classes/movesets that are equally effective in both, without major modifiers being present in the background. The ideal solutions is to design completely seperate rulesets from the ground up, but that takes effort, which is why it never happens. The best we can hope for usually, is to have one of the two (PvE or PvP) be very well set up, and just endure how crappy and imbalanced the other turns out.

     

    Neither 1) , 2) , pvp different from pve or  the holy trinity are mandatory, we have just become so accustomed to the wow-style game system, that we for the most part cannot imagine anything else.

    Flame on!

    :)

     

    Don't get me wrong, I agree. But the number of MMO examples that don't use the Holy Trinity are extremely few, so by extension, the MMO player's crying for balance/fairness are almost certainly playing a Holy Trinity-sponsored game, with all the model's shortcomings. It's the reason GW2's been using it as one of their selling points, and I'm certainly hoping it catches on in future design.

    A Modest Proposal for MMORPGs:
    That the means of progression would not be mutually exclusive from the means of enjoyment.

  • SlampigSlampig Chantilly, VAPosts: 2,376Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by MMOarQQ

    Every Western kid is raised with the mentality that he's special, so of course all we special people have to be just as special; no more, no less.

    This one made me laugh. For real?

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  • ShankenstienShankenstien CoventryPosts: 13Member

    Like they say if you don't know now you never will, simple answer is Ying and Yang, Masculine Feminine, Positive Negative, Up Down. Most of the most primal levels of human emotional and psychological development are based on balance, so, it could be argued it's genetic or at the very least subconcious  haha

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  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,596Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Slampig

    Originally posted by MMOarQQ

    Every Western kid is raised with the mentality that he's special, so of course all we special people have to be just as special; no more, no less.

    This one made me laugh. For real?

    So if everyone is special, then who is special among the special? I suppose westerners being special all starts in the education system. Reminds me of when my daughter was in Pre-K Soccer and they didn't keep score because none of the kids were any good and they didn't want them to feel like losers. So then I guess this must be what we call Special Education.

  • WraithoneWraithone Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 3,594Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Latella

    I thought mmoRPG´s were pretty much online RPG´s and as such, half the fun was that  every soul in them should be different, unique, chaotic, unbalanced and sport a different growth and powers and obtained different gear and abilities depending on how they chose to interact and partecipate within the world and the story.

    So why is everyone obsessed about balance, fairness, other classes having cool spells or some guy obtaining the sword of doom when they do not?

    Why are mmorpgs being turned in some kind of medieval fps?

    I thought rpgs were about the story, the interactions and  not the pew pew and how that n00b warrior does moar damage with his e-peen strike than the mage with his flaming ballz of domination.

    *shrug*

    For the simple fact that WAY too many games insist on adding PvP, when they really should focus on PvE, and leave PvP completely out.  "Balance" and "fairness" complaints are most typical of games with PvP.   "Balance" within an mmo is an endless chase, that sucks up an almost unlimited amount of time/talent and experience (if its allowed to) with damn little to show for it.  

    Why? Because the people playing the class that is nerfed will howl, and the other classes will whine that it wasn't enough ^^ If the class is buffed, the other classes will howl OP!! while the people in the class will whine that it wasn't enough. ^^ its a never ending game of wack a mole. 

  • MehveMehve Kitchener, ONPosts: 487Member

    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    Originally posted by Slampig


    Originally posted by MMOarQQ

    Every Western kid is raised with the mentality that he's special, so of course all we special people have to be just as special; no more, no less.

    This one made me laugh. For real?

    So if everyone is special, then who is special among the special? I suppose westerners being special all starts in the education system. Reminds me of when my daughter was in Pre-K Soccer and they didn't keep score because none of the kids were any good and they didn't want them to feel like losers. So then I guess this must be what we call Special Education.

    Bashing kids for not being "First" can have detrimental effects to development - we've verified this repeatedly. But in classic Western form, we've gone right over to the other extreme now, where everything is acceptable, and you win by having a pulse. It's one thing to praise someone put putting in a good effort, even if it didn't result in a win, but you need to incorporate encouragement to improve further, which we generally fail to do. MMO's are just followed suit.

    A Modest Proposal for MMORPGs:
    That the means of progression would not be mutually exclusive from the means of enjoyment.

  • nate1980nate1980 Evans, GAPosts: 1,829Member

    Originally posted by evolver1972

    Originally posted by Sentime


    Originally posted by Cecropia

    The "everybody gets a medal" "everyone is a winner" generation has grown up and is now playing mainstream mmos. That's my guess, anyways.

     

    Exactly.  People are shocked at the concent of winner and loser, so now everyone loses.

    How is balance and fairness the same as "everybody gets a medal"?  The NFL is set up with a fair and balanced system (same rules, salary cap, etc.).  Are you going to tell me that "everybody gets a medal" in the NFL (or the NHL, etc.)?  No, they don't.  We are not talking about everyone being the same or everyone having to win.  We are talking about making games so that people win based on their skill rather than their stats.

     

    How fun would the NFL be if teams won because they had better helmets and shoulder pads?  I'd much rather see that they all have the same equipment and a level playing field and the team with the most skill, or drive, or whatever other intangible, wins.

     

    So, no, it's not about "everybody gets a medal", it's about "if all stats are the same and you got owned, that player was better at the game than you".

    It's called FPS games man, RPG's are about stats, gear, smart character building, and tactics. MMORPG's are all of that, plus cooperation with your group mates to overcome the enemy.

  • xaritscinxaritscin CaliPosts: 349Member

    Originally posted by nate1980

    Originally posted by evolver1972


    Originally posted by Sentime


    Originally posted by Cecropia

    The "everybody gets a medal" "everyone is a winner" generation has grown up and is now playing mainstream mmos. That's my guess, anyways.

     

    Exactly.  People are shocked at the concent of winner and loser, so now everyone loses.

    How is balance and fairness the same as "everybody gets a medal"?  The NFL is set up with a fair and balanced system (same rules, salary cap, etc.).  Are you going to tell me that "everybody gets a medal" in the NFL (or the NHL, etc.)?  No, they don't.  We are not talking about everyone being the same or everyone having to win.  We are talking about making games so that people win based on their skill rather than their stats.

     

    How fun would the NFL be if teams won because they had better helmets and shoulder pads?  I'd much rather see that they all have the same equipment and a level playing field and the team with the most skill, or drive, or whatever other intangible, wins.

     

    So, no, it's not about "everybody gets a medal", it's about "if all stats are the same and you got owned, that player was better at the game than you".

    It's called FPS games man, RPG's are about stats, gear, smart character building, and tactics. MMORPG's are all of that, plus cooperation with your group mates to overcome the enemy.

    THIS...........if you want balance in PvP go back to your console FPS....war must not be fair........"everyone is a winner" doesnt exist in war......is you kill or get killed..........if someone gets fucked in PvP always then it should see what is doing wrong, instead of complaining about the others.........anyways, the idea is to have fun, if you dont have fun in PvP then do something else.......i have loose in PvP in WoW, and its pretty annoying with all the Twinks and nerfed things, maybe it was better in vanilla.....but anyways, the idea is to have fun no matter if its PvE or PvP, the problem is casual gamers and the "boom" of multiplayer FPS games.....even RTS had to change to keep casual players engaged, and that shouldnt be.....

  • VassagoMaelVassagoMael Covington, LAPosts: 555Member

    Try playing Monopoly where you get half the normal starting money and everyone else gets twice the normal.

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  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    Originally posted by VassagoMael

    Try playing Monopoly where you get half the normal starting money and everyone else gets twice the normal.

    Play chess and spot your opponent a queen and both knights.

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  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member

    Originally posted by VassagoMael

    Try playing Monopoly where you get half the normal starting money and everyone else gets twice the normal.

    I would still kick their ass because the gods of falsely labeled as arbitrary events, ie. dice rolls, always go in my favor.

    Not every game has to be the same. Just because you compare two things under the massive massive label of game doesn't mean your comparison is valid.

    If the primary concern you have for a game is flawlessly balanced PvP then why the hell are you playing mmorpgs? No one can force you not to do it, but it makes very little sense to do.

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,764Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Cecropia

    The "everybody gets a medal" "everyone is a winner" generation has grown up and is now playing mainstream mmos. That's my guess, anyways.

    That's the reverse of reality:



    • Imbalanced PVP.  40 players win, 10 lose.  Nearly everyone gets a medal.


    • Balanced PVP. 30 winners, 30 losers.  More losers.  Only the skilled team wins medals.


    It's the same in PVE. Balance emphasizes skill.  In a balanced game you will only ever win or lose due to skill.  In an imbalanced one, you pick the shallow, obviously-overpowered choice and win for free.  Again, very similar to "everyone gets a medal".

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  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    Originally posted by Axehilt


    • Balanced PVP. 30 winners, 30 losers.  More losers.  Only the skilled team wins medals.

    Naw, losing team still gets tokens.  Play for speed, lose as quickly as possible, lauch the next game, badmouth any players that might want to play to win, maximize your token income.

    That's only one senseless design team's botch, however.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • garretthgarretth Chandler, AZPosts: 316Member

    Originally posted by Wraithone

    Originally posted by Latella

    I thought mmoRPG´s were pretty much online RPG´s and as such, half the fun was that  every soul in them should be different, unique, chaotic, unbalanced and sport a different growth and powers and obtained different gear and abilities depending on how they chose to interact and partecipate within the world and the story.

    So why is everyone obsessed about balance, fairness, other classes having cool spells or some guy obtaining the sword of doom when they do not?

    Why are mmorpgs being turned in some kind of medieval fps?

    I thought rpgs were about the story, the interactions and  not the pew pew and how that n00b warrior does moar damage with his e-peen strike than the mage with his flaming ballz of domination.

    *shrug*

    For the simple fact that WAY too many games insist on adding PvP, when they really should focus on PvE, and leave PvP completely out.  "Balance" and "fairness" complaints are most typical of games with PvP.   "Balance" within an mmo is an endless chase, that sucks up an almost unlimited amount of time/talent and experience (if its allowed to) with damn little to show for it.  

    Why? Because the people playing the class that is nerfed will howl, and the other classes will whine that it wasn't enough ^^ If the class is buffed, the other classes will howl OP!! while the people in the class will whine that it wasn't enough. ^^ its a never ending game of wack a mole. 



    The only way to have complete fairness and balance in pvp is to have only one class, one level with everyone running around nekkid, and using the same weapon.

     

    The only way you win is by skill and luck alone.  It would be boring but you would have fairness and balance.

  • ZylaxxZylaxx Erlanger, KYPosts: 2,574Member

    I only care about balance in PvP and in same level.  The only time someone should be more powerful is when levels are different.  The whole notion that you would allow someone to be stronger then another via artificial methods such as gear is an anathema to me.

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  • DraemosDraemos Antartica, AKPosts: 1,469Member

    Originally posted by Latella

    I thought mmoRPG´s were pretty much online RPG´s and as such, half the fun was that  every soul in them should be different, unique, chaotic, unbalanced and sport a different growth and powers and obtained different gear and abilities depending on how they chose to interact and partecipate within the world and the story.

    So why is everyone obsessed about balance, fairness, other classes having cool spells or some guy obtaining the sword of doom when they do not?

    Why are mmorpgs being turned in some kind of medieval fps?

    I thought rpgs were about the story, the interactions and  not the pew pew and how that n00b warrior does moar damage with his e-peen strike than the mage with his flaming ballz of domination.

    *shrug*

    Cause people don't like getting pissed on, even in a virtual world.

  • BrenelaelBrenelael Warren, MEPosts: 3,996Member

    Balance is mostly due to PvP. What has happened however is because most games now center on PvE with PvP tacked on as almost an afterthought PvPers start to complain about inbalances in the classes for PvP so the devs rebalance the classes. This usually ends up in PvE players getting their classes nerfed all to hell for PvE which causes them to start complaining. This causes the devs to get into a sort of balance war between the PvPers and the PvEers.

     

    What Devs need to do is decide what kind of game they want from to onset and balance it for that. If your game is a PvE game make it the best PvE experience possible. If it's primarily a PvP game then make it the most balanced PvP experience you can. When you try to cater to both playstyles you just end up screwing your game all up and nobody's happy with the results.

     

    Bren

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  • CecropiaCecropia Posts: 3,472Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Originally posted by Cecropia

    The "everybody gets a medal" "everyone is a winner" generation has grown up and is now playing mainstream mmos. That's my guess, anyways.

    That's the reverse of reality:



    • Imbalanced PVP.  40 players win, 10 lose.  Nearly everyone gets a medal.


    • Balanced PVP. 30 winners, 30 losers.  More losers.  Only the skilled team wins medals.


    It's the same in PVE. Balance emphasizes skill.  In a balanced game you will only ever win or lose due to skill.  In an imbalanced one, you pick the shallow, obviously-overpowered choice and win for free.  Again, very similar to "everyone gets a medal".

    LOL. My god, man.

    I can only suggest that you change your username to Mister Twister, as there aint nothin' you can't twist ;)

     

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  • dave6660dave6660 New York, NYPosts: 2,543Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Majinash

    Did people really take "fair" and turn it into a "losers got medals and now they are grown up and blah blah blah".

     

    Name 1 mainstream sport that doesn't strive to be balanced or fair?  Why is it that football, tennis, track and field can all do their best to be balanced and fair, but when MMOs do it its because they are carebears?

    Well in sports everybody starts out the same.  They don't end up that way.  Just like in mmorpg's, everybody starts out at level 1 with crap gear.  Where you go from there is up to you.

    Many of the talking points used in mmorpg's would never work in sports.  For example, player B says, "Player A plays more often than I do so he has an advantage, it's not fair".  In sports, somebody who practices more is going to be better, for good reason.  Another example, player B says, "Player A has been playing for 10 years, I can never catch up".  Would that excuse fly in sports?  How about player B says, "I know this is a team sport but I want to play by myself".  Do we change the rules to suit him?  Or player B says, "Player A gets to go on X Y and Z raids and I don't because I'm not in a raiding guild and can't devote three hours to this game".  In sports would somebody say that want to go to the playoffs even though thier team sucks and can't commit the time necessary to play a full game.

    MMORPG's seem to be striving for equal result instead of equal opportunity.  That's where I see the problem.

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  • LatellaLatella BarcelonaPosts: 189Member

    Originally posted by dave6660

    MMORPG's seem to be striving for equal result instead of equal opportunity.  That's where I see the problem.

    I think this is exactly where the problem is at.

    Rawr.

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