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why do developers insist on easy mode?

eddieg50eddieg50 Tolland, CTPosts: 1,614Member Uncommon

   I used to play vanilla wow and it was fairly challenging combat, the same with eq2 and Lotro and then for some reason developers made the mobs much easier to kill which makes the game boring!   I like SWTOR but over the last few weeks I have found that they have put their mobs on easy mode also.  Do they want people to rush to the end game? I know this cant be the reason in swtor becuase their end game is not their strength, Ahhh well I guess I will have to wait for this summer when Vanguard becomes f2p because their combat is challenging.

 

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Comments

  • UsulDaNeriakUsulDaNeriak SindelfingenPosts: 640Member

    Originally posted by eddieg50

       Ahhh well I guess I will have to wait for this summer when Vanguard becomes f2p because their combat is challenging.

     

    perhaps you will be disapointed. a usual tactics of F2P-conversions is, to make the levelling process easier. so you end up earlier at the point, where it makes a lot of sense to buy some stuff from the cash-shop. also it brings more people faster to the endgame and fill the servers in the important zones. 

     

    played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
    months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
    weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
    days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds

  • AmarantharAmaranthar OhioPosts: 2,431Member Uncommon

    If someone makes a game where the primary objective is to run through levels, then the players who like that sort of game play are naturally going to want to get there FASTER. (Generally speaking of course.)

    That's why such players, and such games, tend to move towards "easy mode".

    Once upon a time....

  • TwistingfateTwistingfate warren, MAPosts: 177Member

    Easy sells. /thread

    image

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,599Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Twistingfate

    Easy sells. /thread

    HAHA!, I saw the title from the home page and I came over here to say EZMode sells games. But I was too late.

  • grimfallgrimfall Missouri City, TXPosts: 1,155Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by eddieg50

       I used to play vanilla wow and it was fairly challenging combat, the same with eq2 and Lotro and then for some reason developers made the mobs much easier to kill which makes the game boring!   I like SWTOR but over the last few weeks I have found that they have put their mobs on easy mode also.  Do they want people to rush to the end game? I know this cant be the reason in swtor becuase their end game is not their strength, Ahhh well I guess I will have to wait for this summer when Vanguard becomes f2p because their combat is challenging.

     

    What is "vanilla wow"?  Are there other flavors of "wow" like chocolate or strawberry, or maybe a neapolitan that mixes all three?

    WoW combat to me was easy mode, so there you go.  Players like instant gratification as the folks at Blizzard figured out, so the industry has copied that.

  • TwistingfateTwistingfate warren, MAPosts: 177Member

    Nice geezer haha. Its the sad truth. I love hard games but because humans tend to take the path of least resistance in most situations it forces easier options to be more favorable.

    image

  • DrakxiiDrakxii Waxahachie, TXPosts: 594Member

    Originally posted by Twistingfate

    Easy sells. /thread

    Yep easy sells and hard maintains.  So while devs might not want to do easy mode their bosses and the publishers want to sell as many as they can as fast as they can.   

     

    Basiclly they are just looking for short term business and ingoring long term business or just hoping it will appear.

    I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.

  • JakdstripperJakdstripper logan lake, BCPosts: 2,127Member Uncommon

    because we keep whining that it's too hard.

     

    i'm serious by the way.

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,940Member Uncommon

    It's sort of like Lite Beer.  Less work, more status.

     

    One point where it fails.  If everyone has status, then no-one has status.

     

    I think it also ties in with a flaw in themepark design.  Eventually the game gets top-heavy with high levels.  The more emphasis placed on high level content, the faster players feel they have to reach high level.  Then the dev caves in and changes leveling from taking hundreds of hours to only a few, resulting in an even more top-heavy game.  Eventually the leveling process is just a tutorial.


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,788Member Uncommon

    Because progression and challenge don't mix.  Most of the things in MMORPGs that you complain of as "easy" would have been very difficult to impossible if you had been lower level with worse gear.

    In order to make something hard, period, rather than hard only if you're underleveled with inferior gear, it has to be hard even if you're at the level cap with the best possible gear.  That is, it has to come after progression in the game has completely ceased.  And people will complain about that, too.

    It can be a lull where progression ceases until you beat the challenge, but such challenges must necessarily be relatively few in number, which only means that almost everything is easy.  It can also be a challenge as a result of the game scaling you down to the content, so that while you can continue to progress elsewhere for use in other content, you cannot progress further for the particular set of content at hand.  But that will also draw a lot of complaints.

    Easy mode is a direct consequence of having a lot of progression in an MMORPG.

  • centkincentkin Asbury, NJPosts: 944Member Uncommon

    I wonder sometimes why they dont do parallel servers like cabal or many of the ftp games where you can log onto any one of 20 channels or so BUT have different difficulty levels.

    Server 1 through 6 Beginner

    Server 7 through 12 Normal

    Server 13 through 16 Hard

    Server 17 through 20 Insane

    ----

    Beginner = no real death penalty, monsters deal 1/2 damage, monsters worth 80% exp.  Monsters have a 50% chance to drop items one gear table lower than they normally drop.

    Normal = minor death penalty, monsters deal normal damage, worth normal exp.

    Hard = moderate death penalty, monsters deal 3/2 damage, worth 120% exp, have a 20% chance to drop items 1 gear table higher than they normally would drop (so if a blue item was supposed to drop, 20% chance of it being yellow instead).

    Insane = severe death penalty, monsters deal 2x damage, have extra resistance to spells, worth 140% exp, drop 30% more items, and have a 40% chance to drop items 1 gear table higher, and a 10% chance of dropping items 2 gear tables higher.

  • KarahandrasKarahandras Sible HedinghamPosts: 1,676Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    Originally posted by Twistingfate

    Easy sells. /thread

    HAHA!, I saw the title from the home page and I came over here to say EZMode sells games. But I was too late.

    Me tooimage

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by centkin

    I wonder sometimes why they dont do parallel servers like cabal or many of the ftp games where you can log onto any one of 20 channels or so BUT have different difficulty levels.

    Server 1 through 6 Beginner

    Server 7 through 12 Normal

    Server 13 through 16 Hard

    Server 17 through 20 Insane

    ----

    Beginner = no real death penalty, monsters deal 1/2 damage, monsters worth 80% exp.  Monsters have a 50% chance to drop items one gear table lower than they normally drop.

    Normal = minor death penalty, monsters deal normal damage, worth normal exp.

    Hard = moderate death penalty, monsters deal 3/2 damage, worth 120% exp, have a 20% chance to drop items 1 gear table higher than they normally would drop (so if a blue item was supposed to drop, 20% chance of it being yellow instead).

    Insane = severe death penalty, monsters deal 2x damage, have extra resistance to spells, worth 140% exp, drop 30% more items, and have a 40% chance to drop items 1 gear table higher, and a 10% chance of dropping items 2 gear tables higher.

    Cost of maintaining the servers vs benefit?

    Is making leveling hard help to gain lots of players?

    They do have 3 difficulty levels for raids, and two for dungeons.

  • GoldenArrowGoldenArrow TurkuPosts: 1,187Member Uncommon

    As said many times in this thread.

    Spoonfeeding gets even non-gamers interested.

  • OnigodOnigod Noord-HollandPosts: 688Member

    Originally posted by eddieg50

       I used to play vanilla wow and it was fairly challenging combat, the same with eq2 and Lotro and then for some reason developers made the mobs much easier to kill which makes the game boring!   I like SWTOR but over the last few weeks I have found that they have put their mobs on easy mode also.  Do they want people to rush to the end game? I know this cant be the reason in swtor becuase their end game is not their strength, Ahhh well I guess I will have to wait for this summer when Vanguard becomes f2p because their combat is challenging.

     

    I also like the fact Vanguard could become alive again but they will also patch the game and i have a feeling that if it atracts people they will put it full with little shortcuts/ balance changes that are also aimed for making mobs easier and everything to try to attract more people.

  • Four0SixFour0Six Missoula, MTPosts: 1,181Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by eddieg50

       I used to play vanilla wow and it was fairly challenging combat, the same with eq2 and Lotro and then for some reason developers made the mobs much easier to kill which makes the game boring!   I like SWTOR but over the last few weeks I have found that they have put their mobs on easy mode also.  Do they want people to rush to the end game? I know this cant be the reason in swtor becuase their end game is not their strength, Ahhh well I guess I will have to wait for this summer when Vanguard becomes f2p because their combat is challenging.

     

    Games need to be easy. They need to be easy of the "tweens" (kids between 10-13) can play.

  • spankybusspankybus Orlando, FLPosts: 1,154Member Uncommon

    In answer to the title of the thread, two reasons:

    1.) developers and publishers need as many subs as possible to be profitable.

    2.) the vast majority of people on this planet are fairly stupid...need proof, when MMO's were harder fewer people played EM...as they have gotten easier, more people play.

    Vanilla WoW was challenging? That game opened up the floodgates of bat-shit stupid people. If there is one title in the MMo genre most directly responsible for the universal dumbing down, it's WoW.

    Loved the game, but a three legged goat can reach max level in a week....maybe faster if he has both front legs.

    Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone
    www.spankybus.com
    -3d Artist & Compositor
    -Writer
    -Professional Amature

  • RivalenRivalen TaviraPosts: 503Member

    Originally posted by Quizzical

    Because progression and challenge don't mix.  Most of the things in MMORPGs that you complain of as "easy" would have been very difficult to impossible if you had been lower level with worse gear.

    In order to make something hard, period, rather than hard only if you're underleveled with inferior gear, it has to be hard even if you're at the level cap with the best possible gear.  That is, it has to come after progression in the game has completely ceased.  And people will complain about that, too.

    It can be a lull where progression ceases until you beat the challenge, but such challenges must necessarily be relatively few in number, which only means that almost everything is easy.  It can also be a challenge as a result of the game scaling you down to the content, so that while you can continue to progress elsewhere for use in other content, you cannot progress further for the particular set of content at hand.  But that will also draw a lot of complaints.

    Easy mode is a direct consequence of having a lot of progression in an MMORPG.

    Well, that and predictable combat.

    Horizontal progression, randomized dungeons, better AI (that mimicks on the fly decisions) and hard gimmick / execute or die fights are the way to go if you're looking for challeging PVE.

    PVP is another beast.

  • TorgrimTorgrim GothenburgPosts: 2,088Member

    Console and solitare crowed entered the arena 6 years ago and first thing they did was whining how hard it is. 

    If it's not broken, you are not innovating.

  • Four0SixFour0Six Missoula, MTPosts: 1,181Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Torgrim

    Console and solitare crowed entered the arena 6 years ago and first thing they did was whining how hard it is. 

    I agree

     

  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,763Member Uncommon

          The majority of gamers today jsut want to be entertained....Most of them are not looking for challenge but to have fun..... Apparently if the game is too hard it isn't fun......Alot fo the older games in the genre were hard at one time, but the constant whining from the playerbase eventually made the devs give in....

  • Loser60Loser60 VilniusPosts: 170Member

    Originally posted by Theocritus

          The majority of gamers today jsut want to be entertained....Most of them are not looking for challenge but to have fun..... Apparently if the game is too hard it isn't fun......Alot fo the older games in the genre were hard at one time, but the constant whining from the playerbase eventually made the devs give in....

    Pretty much this. I miss that feeling when after a lot of tries with your guild you clear a dungeon and get your stuff.

  • eddieg50eddieg50 Tolland, CTPosts: 1,614Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Onigod

    Originally posted by eddieg50

       I used to play vanilla wow and it was fairly challenging combat, the same with eq2 and Lotro and then for some reason developers made the mobs much easier to kill which makes the game boring!   I like SWTOR but over the last few weeks I have found that they have put their mobs on easy mode also.  Do they want people to rush to the end game? I know this cant be the reason in swtor becuase their end game is not their strength, Ahhh well I guess I will have to wait for this summer when Vanguard becomes f2p because their combat is challenging.

     

    I also like the fact Vanguard could become alive again but they will also patch the game and i have a feeling that if it atracts people they will put it full with little shortcuts/ balance changes that are also aimed for making mobs easier and everything to try to attract more people.

        I hope they dont make Vanguard easier or like present day WOW, what I meant concerning vanilla wow was that van wow was harder than present day, as were eq2 and Lotro (although the mobs in Lotro become a bit more difficult after lvl 25) I am not saying you have to have a monumental challenge with every mob but there should be some suspense and even some fear that you might lose-it gets the adrenalin pumping and to me makes the game more fun-where as if I just start running through mobs I fall asleep.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,680Member Uncommon

    According to many of the people here, developers are lazy and greedy. If that's true, then easy mode isn't something the developers insist on - It is the demand of the target audience. After all, the easiest path to buckets fo cash is to develop what their target audience wants most to pay for.

     

     

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • UsulDaNeriakUsulDaNeriak SindelfingenPosts: 640Member

    Originally posted by spankybus

    Vanilla WoW was challenging? That game opened up the floodgates of bat-shit stupid people. If there is one title in the MMo genre most directly responsible for the universal dumbing down, it's WoW.

    Loved the game, but a three legged goat can reach max level in a week....maybe faster if he has both front legs.

    obviously most people started playing MMORPGs with vanilla WoW. and as far as wow-players say, it was harder than todays WoW and all the clones out there. so i guess the players are correct.

    however, i played WoW on launchday and i was coming from EQ1. WoW was plain simple and no challenge from my point of view. it was brutally linear and utterly refined / micromanaged by the devs. afterwards the MMO market exploded from about 2 Mio up to about 25 million people. you do the math. over 90% of all MMO-players got no clue, what challenge means.

    after neither WoW nor EQ2 pleased me in 2005, especially due to lack of challenge, i played EVE for 3 years. afterwards i was checking the MMO market again for an appropriate game, and the situation even became worse. so it was no good idea to play EVE. playing EVE makes things worse ;)

    today i played AION F2P. i am a level 12 summoner. i did just story-quests, in order to slow levelling and make things harder. today i killed a level 17 named mob solo in about 10 seconds. should i feel like a hero now? no, i uninstalled the game. 

    red mobs, just 3 levels above you have been very challenging in EQ. you had to master your class to do so and still a high risk to die. and this is, how games should be. let the masses slaughter the greenies. but please give me real red mobs back.

     

    PS: btw, i played AION P2P on launchday as well. my conclusion after some F2P conversions: F2P does not make games better. so there is no reason, to play them again. i should have known that, before i tried such crap again.

    played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
    months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
    weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
    days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds

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