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Would you support Raids with just cosmetic rewards

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  • MaephistoMaephisto Member Posts: 632

    Originally posted by aesperus

    Originally posted by Maephisto



    I think Loke is right.

    If we are going to talk about incentives, especially gear, we will have to seperate PVE from PVP.   In terms of PvE, I know there are quite of bit of people who just enjoy the progression side of things and expect to be rewarded for their time and effort.  When it comes to GW2, I think PvE'ers have a legitimate complaint.  Trying to spin this shortcoming by saying "end game starts at level 1" just doesnt work.

    PvP is another story.  Competition and the thrill of victory are the only rewards needed. 

    I think the two cant exist in a game together and still work.  So a balanced spread of gear across the board is necessary.  The PvE'ers get the short end of the stick on this one.

    It's not a spin, it's how the game is designed.

    GW1 isn't that different in this regards. It's the primary difference between lateral and vertical progression. Thus for, most players have been used to games that are ~ 95% vertical progression. Anet's design model flips that on it's head. The vertical just isn't that significant in this game (it's basically about as much as just getting to the point where you can equip a full set of skills / traits) Passed that, it's all about unlocking more customization for your character. Not unlike how in games like BF3, the more you play, the more weapons you get to pick from, and the more variety you have in your loadout.

    It can work, it has worked in the past, the general public just isn't used to seeing it in an MMO.

    I havent played GW1, so I cant argue against what your saying.  I hope you are correct.  No matter how disgusting PVE is, I know there are quite a few people who enjoy their end game raids.  I hope when GW2 launches they are satisfied with what they get. 

    From what I have seen/read, I have little worry for the PvP side of things.

    image

  • VorthanionVorthanion Member RarePosts: 2,749

    Originally posted by Asuran24

    Oh yeah i would support raiding content that has just cosmetic rewards, since than in my option the content's actually diffiuclty would be more of a draw to do the content, and maybe even making the raiding content more about lore or other such thigns in the game compared to being abotu gear solely. Now would hardcore raiders want this is a better question, as you do have those that seek to use it as a badge of honor, but then you have those that like challenging pve content that need alot more players to actually do (it is the challenge not the gear that makes them play this content.). It is like those pvpers that use the fact that playing against an actual player over a AI is going to be more fun, when it is a matter of what each player seeks in their playing over what you play agianst that determines how fun it is, and so we get the carebear (pvers) and hardcore (pvers) labels that try to say one style of play is better than another. To me I prefer to have similar rewards for content i do weither that is pve or pvp content, but i want the real difference being how diffiulty the content is from each other, or what gain from it thru playing thru it (such as lore, conclusions to events that I have been playing thru, or additional playstyles.). To me when i play pve content i see the quests as being the prologue as well as first few chapters of a book/story, the small group content such as group quests or instances as being the middle of the story when some things are explain yet more is revealed, and then the raiding content is the actual conclusion of the book showing how all of the previous content being connected even some you never thought it was.

    The challenge might be the reason some raiders will do it the first or second time, but I guarantee you,  loot is the reason why they go at it like hamsters on a wheel.  Exclusivity and social status go hand in hand with the loot rewards.

    image
  • Asuran24Asuran24 Member Posts: 517

    Originally posted by Rhonen

    I am so tired of "Raids", GW2 is like a breath of fresh air in a very stuffy old room.  Let's not try to bring in features into a new Game when we have not even had the opportunity of playing the Game as intended.  If "Raids" are introduced into GW2 then what they promised from the beginning will fall flat on it's face.

    I say NO To Raids!

    Ratero.

    That is fine for you to be tired of raid, yet you do not need to raid in any game, most of all if the other parts of the game enjoyable. Not having a form of raiding (as with raiding becoming less of being about the gear, and more about other factors of play would not be traditional raiding.) to me might mean that the rest of the game is not as appealing to play versus the raiding, and that would be why i would like to have raiding in the game is to show that the devs can make equally fun methods of play for both pve as well a pvp based players that appeal to them without using gear as a incentive. Also if they introduce raids that are not about gearing up or just gear itself, and that it is more about explaning or delveing into the world that gw is apart of then i would never see that as raiding in the sense of how raiding is in other games at all.

  • ZzadZzad Member UncommonPosts: 1,401

    Originally posted by Asuran24

    Originally posted by Rhonen

    I am so tired of "Raids", GW2 is like a breath of fresh air in a very stuffy old room.  Let's not try to bring in features into a new Game when we have not even had the opportunity of playing the Game as intended.  If "Raids" are introduced into GW2 then what they promised from the beginning will fall flat on it's face.

    I say NO To Raids!

    Ratero.

    That is fine for you to be tired of raid, yet you do not need to raid in any game, most of all if the other parts of the game enjoyable. Not having a form of raiding (as with raiding becoming less of being about the gear, and more about other factors of play would not be traditional raiding.) to me might mean that the rest of the game is not as appealing to play versus the raiding, and that would be why i would like to have raiding in the game is to show that the devs can make equally fun methods of play for both pve as well a pvp based players that appeal to them without using gear as a incentive. Also if they introduce raids that are not about gearing up or just gear itself, and that it is more about explaning or delveing into the world that gw is apart of then i would never see that as raiding in the sense of how raiding is in other games at all.

    This game will not be for everyone...that is for sure.

    It doesn´t have gear grind...it doesn´t have the holy trinity fixed...it doesn´t even have dedicated healer clasess...

    and not It doesn´t have Raid Instanced for 25 ppl groups...

    is it that hard to understand & enjoy another kind of game design?

    FFS

  • heartlessheartless Member UncommonPosts: 4,993

    GW2 already has raids of sorts--the zone bosses. And that's just how I like it. Big bad boss appears and everyone in the zone bands together to defeat him. What I don't support are WoW-like raids with 10, 25 or 40 people basically running a dungeon together.

    It cheapens the experience, when you farm the same raid over and over and over again until you finally execute the strategy you read on wowhead.com to the tee.

    Edit: if you want traditional raids, you have a whole bunch of games to choose from, go play one of them. ArenaNet has a certain philosophy for this game and as a fan of GW1, I do not want it changed to suit a vocal minority of raiders. We all know where this raid crap leads, eventually. They are going to whine on the forums about how "OMG raiding is so super hard and they deserve better rewards than non-raiders because raiding is so, so super hard..." you get the point.

    image

  • Asuran24Asuran24 Member Posts: 517

    Originally posted by Vorthanion

    Originally posted by Asuran24

    Oh yeah i would support raiding content that has just cosmetic rewards, since than in my option the content's actually diffiuclty would be more of a draw to do the content, and maybe even making the raiding content more about lore or other such thigns in the game compared to being abotu gear solely. Now would hardcore raiders want this is a better question, as you do have those that seek to use it as a badge of honor, but then you have those that like challenging pve content that need alot more players to actually do (it is the challenge not the gear that makes them play this content.). It is like those pvpers that use the fact that playing against an actual player over a AI is going to be more fun, when it is a matter of what each player seeks in their playing over what you play agianst that determines how fun it is, and so we get the carebear (pvers) and hardcore (pvers) labels that try to say one style of play is better than another. To me I prefer to have similar rewards for content i do weither that is pve or pvp content, but i want the real difference being how diffiulty the content is from each other, or what gain from it thru playing thru it (such as lore, conclusions to events that I have been playing thru, or additional playstyles.). To me when i play pve content i see the quests as being the prologue as well as first few chapters of a book/story, the small group content such as group quests or instances as being the middle of the story when some things are explain yet more is revealed, and then the raiding content is the actual conclusion of the book showing how all of the previous content being connected even some you never thought it was.

    The challenge might be the reason some raiders will do it the first or second time, but I guarantee you,  loot is the reason why they go at it like hamsters on a wheel.  Exclusivity and social status go hand in hand with the loot rewards.

    Is that a bad thigns to reward players with loot, lore, and more info for playing thru content in the game? Gear will always play into the desire to play raids, dungeons, or other content, but the fun or challenge is what makes you want to play it. You also have many raiders that will go back thru pror content that is completely outdated for lore, as well as loot that they want (most that go for loot are collectors not looking for better gear.). Looking at pvping players revel in being the best pvper, getting titles, even fighting against other players of equal skill to them, but the gear you can get gives an added incentive to keep it feeling worthwhile to do longer than otherwise might be. It is the same with dungeons in games you might be quests, and content in the game the first time thru for the fun as well as challenge, but it is the rewards you gain or can gain that makes it worthwhile to play thru it more. Now if they made the raiding like a version of DE's in that the encounters can actually change, scale, and such things the players would need less of a incentive to replay content. Yet you also do not need the loot to give the players in any cotent any kind of advantage, but merely show they have played thru this or that, and give them a feeling of acomplishment when they finsih content. Getting unique vanity gear in raids, pvp, and open world activities is not a bad idea to give distinition to players for achiving things in their chosen playstyle, i know many players that could careless hwo good or bad a item is if it looks amazing or in a style they like.

  • Asuran24Asuran24 Member Posts: 517

    Originally posted by Zzad

    Originally posted by Asuran24


    Originally posted by Rhonen

    I am so tired of "Raids", GW2 is like a breath of fresh air in a very stuffy old room.  Let's not try to bring in features into a new Game when we have not even had the opportunity of playing the Game as intended.  If "Raids" are introduced into GW2 then what they promised from the beginning will fall flat on it's face.

    I say NO To Raids!

    Ratero.

    That is fine for you to be tired of raid, yet you do not need to raid in any game, most of all if the other parts of the game enjoyable. Not having a form of raiding (as with raiding becoming less of being about the gear, and more about other factors of play would not be traditional raiding.) to me might mean that the rest of the game is not as appealing to play versus the raiding, and that would be why i would like to have raiding in the game is to show that the devs can make equally fun methods of play for both pve as well a pvp based players that appeal to them without using gear as a incentive. Also if they introduce raids that are not about gearing up or just gear itself, and that it is more about explaning or delveing into the world that gw is apart of then i would never see that as raiding in the sense of how raiding is in other games at all.

    This game will not be for everyone...that is for sure.

    It doesn´t have gear grind...it doesn´t have the holy trinity fixed...it doesn´t even have dedicated healer clasess...

    and not It doesn´t have Raid Instanced for 25 ppl groups...

    is it that hard to understand & enjoy another kind of game design?

    FFS

    About as hard as it is for thick-headed players to understand that some players do not want to have a gear grind, or deticated roles, but do want to have content that is for a larger scale of players playing the content at the same time. Raid does not need to be about grinding gear, or about having deticated role, but having more complex, and as such more enjoyable playing for players that like that kind of game style. Is it hard to understand that players that might want to play such a game in a design that is differnet might want to play it with larger groups of players, in content that are built for such groups, as well as giving you info. Many raiders i know love the lore, item looks, and merely the fun times of playing with such large groups of players that the gear you gain to upgrade your character are very much secondary to the enjoyment.

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 7,254

    Do it for the achieves, bro.

  • ZzadZzad Member UncommonPosts: 1,401

    Originally posted by Asuran24

    Originally posted by Zzad


    Originally posted by Asuran24


    Originally posted by Rhonen

    I am so tired of "Raids", GW2 is like a breath of fresh air in a very stuffy old room.  Let's not try to bring in features into a new Game when we have not even had the opportunity of playing the Game as intended.  If "Raids" are introduced into GW2 then what they promised from the beginning will fall flat on it's face.

    I say NO To Raids!

    Ratero.

    That is fine for you to be tired of raid, yet you do not need to raid in any game, most of all if the other parts of the game enjoyable. Not having a form of raiding (as with raiding becoming less of being about the gear, and more about other factors of play would not be traditional raiding.) to me might mean that the rest of the game is not as appealing to play versus the raiding, and that would be why i would like to have raiding in the game is to show that the devs can make equally fun methods of play for both pve as well a pvp based players that appeal to them without using gear as a incentive. Also if they introduce raids that are not about gearing up or just gear itself, and that it is more about explaning or delveing into the world that gw is apart of then i would never see that as raiding in the sense of how raiding is in other games at all.

    This game will not be for everyone...that is for sure.

    It doesn´t have gear grind...it doesn´t have the holy trinity fixed...it doesn´t even have dedicated healer clasess...

    and not It doesn´t have Raid Instanced for 25 ppl groups...

    is it that hard to understand & enjoy another kind of game design?

    FFS

    About as hard as it is for thick-headed players to understand that some players do not want to have a gear grind, or deticated roles, but do want to have content that is for a larger scale of players playing the content at the same time. Raid does not need to be about grinding gear, or about having deticated role, but having more complex, and as such more enjoyable playing for players that like that kind of game style. Is it hard to understand that players that might want to play such a game in a design that is differnet might want to play it with larger groups of players, in content that are built for such groups, as well as giving you info. Many raiders i know love the lore, item looks, and merely the fun times of playing with such large groups of players that the gear you gain to upgrade your character are very much secondary to the enjoyment.

    Is just as easy as to understand Guild Wars 2 have never announced Raids as part of its content or even as it end game design. It´s another kind of MMO. Like it or Not.

    About the Lore....well Guild Wars had one of the richest lore in gaming...and it had never needed Raids to explain it or "run" trough it.

  • KalferKalfer Member Posts: 779

    Originally posted by Asuran24

    Originally posted by Zzad


    Originally posted by Asuran24


    Originally posted by Rhonen

    I am so tired of "Raids", GW2 is like a breath of fresh air in a very stuffy old room.  Let's not try to bring in features into a new Game when we have not even had the opportunity of playing the Game as intended.  If "Raids" are introduced into GW2 then what they promised from the beginning will fall flat on it's face.

    I say NO To Raids!

    Ratero.

    That is fine for you to be tired of raid, yet you do not need to raid in any game, most of all if the other parts of the game enjoyable. Not having a form of raiding (as with raiding becoming less of being about the gear, and more about other factors of play would not be traditional raiding.) to me might mean that the rest of the game is not as appealing to play versus the raiding, and that would be why i would like to have raiding in the game is to show that the devs can make equally fun methods of play for both pve as well a pvp based players that appeal to them without using gear as a incentive. Also if they introduce raids that are not about gearing up or just gear itself, and that it is more about explaning or delveing into the world that gw is apart of then i would never see that as raiding in the sense of how raiding is in other games at all.

    This game will not be for everyone...that is for sure.

    It doesn´t have gear grind...it doesn´t have the holy trinity fixed...it doesn´t even have dedicated healer clasess...

    and not It doesn´t have Raid Instanced for 25 ppl groups...

    is it that hard to understand & enjoy another kind of game design?

    FFS

    About as hard as it is for thick-headed players to understand that some players do not want to have a gear grind, or deticated roles, but do want to have content that is for a larger scale of players playing the content at the same time. Raid does not need to be about grinding gear, or about having deticated role, but having more complex, and as such more enjoyable playing for players that like that kind of game style. Is it hard to understand that players that might want to play such a game in a design that is differnet might want to play it with larger groups of players, in content that are built for such groups, as well as giving you info. Many raiders i know love the lore, item looks, and merely the fun times of playing with such large groups of players that the gear you gain to upgrade your character are very much secondary to the enjoyment.

    GW2 has open world raids in the form of dynamic events. they have said that some of them will require many players to do, and will be really challanging.

     

    'we need to get away from instanced raids. they suck.

  • Asuran24Asuran24 Member Posts: 517

    Originally posted by heartless

    GW2 already has raids of sorts--the zone bosses. And that's just how I like it. Big bad boss appears and everyone in the zone bands together to defeat him. What I don't support are WoW-like raids with 10, 25 or 40 people basically running a dungeon together.

    It cheapens the experience, when you farm the same raid over and over and over again until you finally execute the strategy you read on wowhead.com to the tee.

    So a zone grouping up to kill a boss in a zone when it pops up is fine, but having something that would be more like the dungeons in gw now, except larger  giving the players more complexty to the dungeons comparitively. Now if it were somethign like how wow does the fights with them being made for a trinity that would be an issue, but if they built the raids around the ideas of their own systems they have now it would not be raiding in wow or other games at all. In this fashion only the fact that the content is built with the idea of having much larger numbers of players in the content, but the machanics or the styles of the encounters in the content woould be different from wow raids merely by the fact you do not have deticated roles in the game.

  • aesperusaesperus Member UncommonPosts: 5,135

    Originally posted by Asuran24

    About as hard as it is for thick-headed players to understand that some players do not want to have a gear grind, or deticated roles, but do want to have content that is for a larger scale of players playing the content at the same time. Raid does not need to be about grinding gear, or about having deticated role, but having more complex, and as such more enjoyable playing for players that like that kind of game style. Is it hard to understand that players that might want to play such a game in a design that is differnet might want to play it with larger groups of players, in content that are built for such groups, as well as giving you info. Many raiders i know love the lore, item looks, and merely the fun times of playing with such large groups of players that the gear you gain to upgrade your character are very much secondary to the enjoyment.

    Except, the game does have larger scale content. Just not the same old traditional raids.

    So yes, there is content for 40 + people to band together to defeat. It just won't be in an instance.

  • heartlessheartless Member UncommonPosts: 4,993

    Originally posted by Asuran24

    Originally posted by Zzad


    Originally posted by Asuran24


    Originally posted by Rhonen

    I am so tired of "Raids", GW2 is like a breath of fresh air in a very stuffy old room.  Let's not try to bring in features into a new Game when we have not even had the opportunity of playing the Game as intended.  If "Raids" are introduced into GW2 then what they promised from the beginning will fall flat on it's face.

    I say NO To Raids!

    Ratero.

    That is fine for you to be tired of raid, yet you do not need to raid in any game, most of all if the other parts of the game enjoyable. Not having a form of raiding (as with raiding becoming less of being about the gear, and more about other factors of play would not be traditional raiding.) to me might mean that the rest of the game is not as appealing to play versus the raiding, and that would be why i would like to have raiding in the game is to show that the devs can make equally fun methods of play for both pve as well a pvp based players that appeal to them without using gear as a incentive. Also if they introduce raids that are not about gearing up or just gear itself, and that it is more about explaning or delveing into the world that gw is apart of then i would never see that as raiding in the sense of how raiding is in other games at all.

    This game will not be for everyone...that is for sure.

    It doesn´t have gear grind...it doesn´t have the holy trinity fixed...it doesn´t even have dedicated healer clasess...

    and not It doesn´t have Raid Instanced for 25 ppl groups...

    is it that hard to understand & enjoy another kind of game design?

    FFS

    About as hard as it is for thick-headed players to understand that some players do not want to have a gear grind, or deticated roles, but do want to have content that is for a larger scale of players playing the content at the same time. Raid does not need to be about grinding gear, or about having deticated role, but having more complex, and as such more enjoyable playing for players that like that kind of game style. Is it hard to understand that players that might want to play such a game in a design that is differnet might want to play it with larger groups of players, in content that are built for such groups, as well as giving you info. Many raiders i know love the lore, item looks, and merely the fun times of playing with such large groups of players that the gear you gain to upgrade your character are very much secondary to the enjoyment.

    You have that content. There are zone bosses and defeating the requires a large amount of players.

    image

  • ZzadZzad Member UncommonPosts: 1,401

    Originally posted by Asuran24

    Originally posted by heartless

    GW2 already has raids of sorts--the zone bosses. And that's just how I like it. Big bad boss appears and everyone in the zone bands together to defeat him. What I don't support are WoW-like raids with 10, 25 or 40 people basically running a dungeon together.

    It cheapens the experience, when you farm the same raid over and over and over again until you finally execute the strategy you read on wowhead.com to the tee.

    So a zone grouping up to kill a boss in a zone when it pops up is fine, but having something that would be more like the dungeons in gw now, except larger  giving the players more complexty to the dungeons comparitively. Now if it were somethign like how wow does the fights with them being made for a trinity that would be an issue, but if they built the raids around the ideas of their own systems they have now it would not be raiding in wow or other games at all. In this fashion only the fact that the content is built with the idea of having much larger numbers of players in the content, but the machanics or the styles of the encounters in the content woould be different from wow raids merely by the fact you do not have deticated roles in the game.

    is not about beeing fine or not...you are just asking a game with a different design to change to your beloved "traditional Raids design" because you like it.

    There are plenty of games designed that way...pick one.

  • Asuran24Asuran24 Member Posts: 517

    Originally posted by Kalfer

    Originally posted by Asuran24


    Originally posted by Zzad


    Originally posted by Asuran24


    Originally posted by Rhonen

    I am so tired of "Raids", GW2 is like a breath of fresh air in a very stuffy old room.  Let's not try to bring in features into a new Game when we have not even had the opportunity of playing the Game as intended.  If "Raids" are introduced into GW2 then what they promised from the beginning will fall flat on it's face.

    I say NO To Raids!

    Ratero.

    That is fine for you to be tired of raid, yet you do not need to raid in any game, most of all if the other parts of the game enjoyable. Not having a form of raiding (as with raiding becoming less of being about the gear, and more about other factors of play would not be traditional raiding.) to me might mean that the rest of the game is not as appealing to play versus the raiding, and that would be why i would like to have raiding in the game is to show that the devs can make equally fun methods of play for both pve as well a pvp based players that appeal to them without using gear as a incentive. Also if they introduce raids that are not about gearing up or just gear itself, and that it is more about explaning or delveing into the world that gw is apart of then i would never see that as raiding in the sense of how raiding is in other games at all.

    This game will not be for everyone...that is for sure.

    It doesn´t have gear grind...it doesn´t have the holy trinity fixed...it doesn´t even have dedicated healer clasess...

    and not It doesn´t have Raid Instanced for 25 ppl groups...

    is it that hard to understand & enjoy another kind of game design?

    FFS

    About as hard as it is for thick-headed players to understand that some players do not want to have a gear grind, or deticated roles, but do want to have content that is for a larger scale of players playing the content at the same time. Raid does not need to be about grinding gear, or about having deticated role, but having more complex, and as such more enjoyable playing for players that like that kind of game style. Is it hard to understand that players that might want to play such a game in a design that is differnet might want to play it with larger groups of players, in content that are built for such groups, as well as giving you info. Many raiders i know love the lore, item looks, and merely the fun times of playing with such large groups of players that the gear you gain to upgrade your character are very much secondary to the enjoyment.

    GW2 has open world raids in the form of dynamic events. they have said that some of them will require many players to do, and will be really challanging.

     

    'we need to get away from instanced raids. they suck.

    Matter of opinion that instanced raids, or open raids suck or not as it is a matter of what you perfer playing and how you play. It might true that DEs will be challenging, yet some players do not like open world content as much as others, and so with raiding or other content being stated as being in or out asking, or showing that there are players that seek it without the normal wow-like standards of a grind or such is not bad for anyone as those that seek to play in it will whiile other will avoid it.

  • heartlessheartless Member UncommonPosts: 4,993

    Originally posted by Asuran24

    Originally posted by heartless

    GW2 already has raids of sorts--the zone bosses. And that's just how I like it. Big bad boss appears and everyone in the zone bands together to defeat him. What I don't support are WoW-like raids with 10, 25 or 40 people basically running a dungeon together.

    It cheapens the experience, when you farm the same raid over and over and over again until you finally execute the strategy you read on wowhead.com to the tee.

    So a zone grouping up to kill a boss in a zone when it pops up is fine, but having something that would be more like the dungeons in gw now, except larger  giving the players more complexty to the dungeons comparitively. Now if it were somethign like how wow does the fights with them being made for a trinity that would be an issue, but if they built the raids around the ideas of their own systems they have now it would not be raiding in wow or other games at all. In this fashion only the fact that the content is built with the idea of having much larger numbers of players in the content, but the machanics or the styles of the encounters in the content woould be different from wow raids merely by the fact you do not have deticated roles in the game.

    You and me both know that the raid dungeons do not offer more complexity. They are basically small group content that was buffed for a large amount of players and they don't fit in with GW2 or GW1 philosophy. I can understand huge zone bosses requiring a lot of people to kill but most of these raids have trash mobs which require the same amout of players to kill, make no sense.

    GW1 and 2 are always about small group PvE content. If you want to whack on big mobs with 25+ people, you have WoW and a whole bunch of other games that tried to copy it. Leave GW2 to those who do not want the extreme minority to dominate the whole game.

    image

  • EliandalEliandal Member Posts: 796

    Originally posted by heartless

    Originally posted by Asuran24


    Originally posted by heartless

    GW2 already has raids of sorts--the zone bosses. And that's just how I like it. Big bad boss appears and everyone in the zone bands together to defeat him. What I don't support are WoW-like raids with 10, 25 or 40 people basically running a dungeon together.

    It cheapens the experience, when you farm the same raid over and over and over again until you finally execute the strategy you read on wowhead.com to the tee.

    So a zone grouping up to kill a boss in a zone when it pops up is fine, but having something that would be more like the dungeons in gw now, except larger  giving the players more complexty to the dungeons comparitively. Now if it were somethign like how wow does the fights with them being made for a trinity that would be an issue, but if they built the raids around the ideas of their own systems they have now it would not be raiding in wow or other games at all. In this fashion only the fact that the content is built with the idea of having much larger numbers of players in the content, but the machanics or the styles of the encounters in the content woould be different from wow raids merely by the fact you do not have deticated roles in the game.

    You and me both know that the raid dungeons do not offer more complexity. They are basically small group content that was buffed for a large amount of players and they don't fit in with GW2 or GW1 philosophy. I can understand huge zone bosses requiring a lot of people to kill but most of these raids have trash mobs which require the same amout of players to kill, make no sense.

    GW1 and 2 are always about small group PvE content. If you want to whack on big mobs with 25+ people, you have WoW and a whole bunch of other games that tried to copy it. Leave GW2 to those who do not want the extreme minority to dominate the whole game.

     

      I agree with most of the above, except just looking at numbers - it's no extreme minority that likes to 'raid'.  There are plenty of 'raiding' games out there to satisfy that appetite - no need for exaggeration.

  • Asuran24Asuran24 Member Posts: 517

    Originally posted by Zzad

    Originally posted by Asuran24


    Originally posted by heartless

    GW2 already has raids of sorts--the zone bosses. And that's just how I like it. Big bad boss appears and everyone in the zone bands together to defeat him. What I don't support are WoW-like raids with 10, 25 or 40 people basically running a dungeon together.

    It cheapens the experience, when you farm the same raid over and over and over again until you finally execute the strategy you read on wowhead.com to the tee.

    So a zone grouping up to kill a boss in a zone when it pops up is fine, but having something that would be more like the dungeons in gw now, except larger  giving the players more complexty to the dungeons comparitively. Now if it were somethign like how wow does the fights with them being made for a trinity that would be an issue, but if they built the raids around the ideas of their own systems they have now it would not be raiding in wow or other games at all. In this fashion only the fact that the content is built with the idea of having much larger numbers of players in the content, but the machanics or the styles of the encounters in the content woould be different from wow raids merely by the fact you do not have deticated roles in the game.

    is not about beeing fine or not...you are just asking a game with a different design to change to your beloved "traditional Raids design" because you like it.

    There are plenty of games designed that way...pick one.

    Actually no asking for the current fact that they have dungeons for smaller groups being brought up to a larger group scale without actually using the staples of how other raiding designs are is not asking for the game to change, but merely asking for it to evolve the standard dungeon instances to have some instances of them made for larger groups for those that seek such thigns in a game they are looking at. Good job of reading though since you missed that i even said building raids around the core of what gw2 is with merely bringing up the number of players to a higher number, and keeping the content equaly challenging to those seeking that. Just because some ask for raids thaat does not mean they seek raids like wow, but merely want to see raiding in the game using the same core aspects of the game to be able to enjoy it in their wn style, while playing other asects of the game as well.

  • heartlessheartless Member UncommonPosts: 4,993

    Originally posted by Eliandal

    Originally posted by heartless


    Originally posted by Asuran24


    Originally posted by heartless

    GW2 already has raids of sorts--the zone bosses. And that's just how I like it. Big bad boss appears and everyone in the zone bands together to defeat him. What I don't support are WoW-like raids with 10, 25 or 40 people basically running a dungeon together.

    It cheapens the experience, when you farm the same raid over and over and over again until you finally execute the strategy you read on wowhead.com to the tee.

    So a zone grouping up to kill a boss in a zone when it pops up is fine, but having something that would be more like the dungeons in gw now, except larger  giving the players more complexty to the dungeons comparitively. Now if it were somethign like how wow does the fights with them being made for a trinity that would be an issue, but if they built the raids around the ideas of their own systems they have now it would not be raiding in wow or other games at all. In this fashion only the fact that the content is built with the idea of having much larger numbers of players in the content, but the machanics or the styles of the encounters in the content woould be different from wow raids merely by the fact you do not have deticated roles in the game.

    You and me both know that the raid dungeons do not offer more complexity. They are basically small group content that was buffed for a large amount of players and they don't fit in with GW2 or GW1 philosophy. I can understand huge zone bosses requiring a lot of people to kill but most of these raids have trash mobs which require the same amout of players to kill, make no sense.

    GW1 and 2 are always about small group PvE content. If you want to whack on big mobs with 25+ people, you have WoW and a whole bunch of other games that tried to copy it. Leave GW2 to those who do not want the extreme minority to dominate the whole game.

     

      I agree with most of the above, except just looking at numbers - it's no extreme minority that likes to 'raid'.  There are plenty of 'raiding' games out there to satisfy that appetite - no need for exaggeration.

    There was a study of sorts done on how many WoW players actually experience raid content. It turned out to be less than 10%. As far as I'm concerned, that's an extreme minority.

    It's irrelevent either way. People who prefer the raid playstyle have a selection of games to choose from. Even GW2 offers a bit of "raiding" in the form of zone bosses. However, if people crave actual dedicated raid instances/dungeons, they won't find them in GW2. Raiding is more about alienating, rather than playing with others and ArenaNet wants to avoid that.

    image

  • azmundaiazmundai Member UncommonPosts: 1,419


    Originally posted by Icewhite

    Originally posted by azmundai one of the biggest mistakes I think the genre has made is perpetuating the expertise bandaid instead of fixing the core imbalance between attainment of gear across the two playstyles.
    Don't personally consider that Blizzard's biggest mistake.  Balancing PVE and PVP in the same environment has always been a fingernail-pulling level of challenge for developers.  Nobody's got it right yet, not even the most popular game on Earth.
    I'd look at it from the other side; how many times does it have to fail before devs stop trying to beat the square peg into a round hole?

    I guess I dont see the problem as clearly as the devs.

    Do I raid for gear? I'd be lying if I said gear wasn't a factor .. but the gear isn't what got me into raiding, it was the challenge. I know that cliche or w/e .. but what can I tell you.

    I played EQ and UO, but not obsessively. Didn't do much raiding in either. When I came to wow, the raiding hooked me. It was about beating the dungeon. MC took us months to finish. Finishing it was the reward. If I had never entered another raid instance I would have been happy. Of course BWL was awesome as well, imo and for us was again never about the gear. Did we farm MC for specific loot while working on BWL? Sure .. that is why we ran MC 4 months after finishing it, but it's not why we were in BWL.

    That kind of thing just doesn't exist these days.

    -----

    Back then I never saw a problem with pve gear in pvp. I guess that's easy for me to say as I had pve gear ... but I was never the best geared or in the best guild. We were on Sartura when TBC hit. Not progressed by most people's standards. But we were having the time of our lives. TBC was good too .. then everything really became free. I've been between games ever since.

    Not sure what my point is anymore. lol ..

    What if servers were split? Pve servers assumed pve players so pve gear was allowed in pvp .. but on pvp servers, pve gear had a negative bolster effect?

    LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
    I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  • Asuran24Asuran24 Member Posts: 517

    Originally posted by heartless

    Originally posted by Asuran24


    Originally posted by heartless

    GW2 already has raids of sorts--the zone bosses. And that's just how I like it. Big bad boss appears and everyone in the zone bands together to defeat him. What I don't support are WoW-like raids with 10, 25 or 40 people basically running a dungeon together.

    It cheapens the experience, when you farm the same raid over and over and over again until you finally execute the strategy you read on wowhead.com to the tee.

    So a zone grouping up to kill a boss in a zone when it pops up is fine, but having something that would be more like the dungeons in gw now, except larger  giving the players more complexty to the dungeons comparitively. Now if it were somethign like how wow does the fights with them being made for a trinity that would be an issue, but if they built the raids around the ideas of their own systems they have now it would not be raiding in wow or other games at all. In this fashion only the fact that the content is built with the idea of having much larger numbers of players in the content, but the machanics or the styles of the encounters in the content woould be different from wow raids merely by the fact you do not have deticated roles in the game.

    You and me both know that the raid dungeons do not offer more complexity. They are basically small group content that was buffed for a large amount of players and they don't fit in with GW2 or GW1 philosophy. I can understand huge zone bosses requiring a lot of people to kill but most of these raids have trash mobs which require the same amout of players to kill, make no sense.

    GW1 and 2 are always about small group PvE content. If you want to whack on big mobs with 25+ people, you have WoW and a whole bunch of other games that tried to copy it. Leave GW2 to those who do not want the extreme minority to dominate the whole game.

    It depends on what era of raiding you are talking about really for how complex the content was, if you take raiding back in standard wow then yes it was more complex then most other conent in that everyone had to do their jobs nearly perfect, but complared to what raiding has become no the complexity s not the same but that is more of a change in how many of the raiding base play then the idea of what raiding should be. I prefered when roles had specific jobs to do other then merely being tanking, healing, and dpsing. Now withoout needing to have certain roles in a raid you could have trully complex encounters in the raids that would be more like how raiding was made prior to modern raiding.

  • heartlessheartless Member UncommonPosts: 4,993

    Originally posted by Asuran24

    Originally posted by heartless


    Originally posted by Asuran24


    Originally posted by heartless

    GW2 already has raids of sorts--the zone bosses. And that's just how I like it. Big bad boss appears and everyone in the zone bands together to defeat him. What I don't support are WoW-like raids with 10, 25 or 40 people basically running a dungeon together.

    It cheapens the experience, when you farm the same raid over and over and over again until you finally execute the strategy you read on wowhead.com to the tee.

    So a zone grouping up to kill a boss in a zone when it pops up is fine, but having something that would be more like the dungeons in gw now, except larger  giving the players more complexty to the dungeons comparitively. Now if it were somethign like how wow does the fights with them being made for a trinity that would be an issue, but if they built the raids around the ideas of their own systems they have now it would not be raiding in wow or other games at all. In this fashion only the fact that the content is built with the idea of having much larger numbers of players in the content, but the machanics or the styles of the encounters in the content woould be different from wow raids merely by the fact you do not have deticated roles in the game.

    You and me both know that the raid dungeons do not offer more complexity. They are basically small group content that was buffed for a large amount of players and they don't fit in with GW2 or GW1 philosophy. I can understand huge zone bosses requiring a lot of people to kill but most of these raids have trash mobs which require the same amout of players to kill, make no sense.

    GW1 and 2 are always about small group PvE content. If you want to whack on big mobs with 25+ people, you have WoW and a whole bunch of other games that tried to copy it. Leave GW2 to those who do not want the extreme minority to dominate the whole game.

    It depends on what era of raiding you are talking about really for how complex the content was, if you take raiding back in standard wow then yes it was more complex then most other conent in that everyone had to do their jobs nearly perfect, but complared to what raiding has become no the complexity s not the same but that is more of a change in how many of the raiding base play then the idea of what raiding should be. I prefered when roles had specific jobs to do other then merely being tanking, healing, and dpsing. Now withoout needing to have certain roles in a raid you could have trully complex encounters in the raids that would be more like how raiding was made prior to modern raiding.

    The fact is that ArenaNet does not really cater to that playstyle. If it's that important for you, there are plenty of games that still accomodate raiders. This game does not have it. Either accept it for what it is or move on.

    image

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,855

    This whole thread misses the point of progression raiding. Better gear is only one part of the system. You clear one raid and get everyone in the group better gear so you can become good enough to face the next raid.

    Raiding just for the sake of getting gear is pointless. Yes we all like having better stats, but by the time you are in full raid gear, solo content is so easy getting even stronger doesn't even show. Even doing 5 man content is easy and better gear is just considered over kill. Meaning there is no other point to it other than the next raid. Well, that and bragging rights, but in this regard, GW2 has it also.

    It's clear that some people looking forward to GW2 are not and most likely never were serious raiders. You've dismissed it off like it's some kind of advanced group gear vending machine.

    By all accounts, Once you hit cap,  You really have no way to progress. And I am not talking about player skills, I am assuming we have mastered our class by this point.

    Raid progression isn't only about getting gear drops, it's about leveraging your prior success against future challenges. I just don't see how GW2 can support this.

  • silvermembersilvermember Member UncommonPosts: 526

    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    This whole thread misses the point of progression raiding. Better gear is only one part of the system. You clear one raid and get everyone in the group better gear so you can become good enough to face the next raid.

    Raiding just for the sake of getting gear is pointless. Yes we all like having better stats, but by the time you are in full raid gear, solo content is so easy getting even stronger doesn't even show. Even doing 5 man content is easy and better gear is just considered over kill. Meaning there is no other point to it other than the next raid. Well, that and bragging rights, but in this regard, GW2 has it also.

    It's clear that some people looking forward to GW2 are not and most likely never were serious raiders. You've dismissed it off like it's some kind of advanced group gear vending machine.

    raid progression is about leveraging your prior success against future challenges. I just don't see how GW2 can support this.

    By all accounts, Once you hit cap,  You really have no way to progress. And I am not talking about player skills, I am assuming we have mastered our class by this point.

    raiding is purely about getting better gear so they can lord over those that don't have the time to keep doing repetitive task. As for skill, I guess you can argue that being able to read guides, follow basic direction and adding mods that play the game for you, can be considered in some lesser gaming circles to equate to "skill".

  • Blacknoob6Blacknoob6 Member UncommonPosts: 8

    Since when does a better gear means that your a better player? 

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