In realty, the people who do not continue to play and.or subscribe are the ones rebuking them.
I think an additional fact is that although many people talk about how much we liked the older concepts in games, the fact is that there is still an appeal, albeit a different appeal to the new model being developed as well. If not for what it is now, but where it is going.
There is alot of crying about where the genre is, where it is going etc. etc. The biggest issue is that there have been bits and pieces of really different and interesting concepts in gaming from multiple sources. Big name and Indie alike. Most of us have noticed those glimpses of potential. However, alot of people have different opinions of what they like. Now they want one MMO that has all those pieces of what THEY liked all wrapped up into one game.
For every gamer that likes a vast world they have to run in with no fast travel, there is a gamer that will cry about it and threaten to quit. For every gamer that likes a death penalty there is a gamer who will cry about it and threaten to quit. And on and on.
How could you really ever please this genre in this day and age? It would be great if games focused on a market inside the genre (i.e. punishing/challenging mmorpgs) but the fact is that whenever these concepts are implemented into games these days the QQ flag raises so high that they eventually ease up on it.
I could be wrong and maybe someone will hold the line and stick to a challlenging concept, but I doubt it. They would more likely release it and then relent at the backlash in fear of a dying playerbase like most of the rest.
its actually alot more simple than you might think for a single game to cater to those different groups of people. You see, it really comes down to the fact that there's 2 major different groups of mmo players, carebears and hardcores. The hardcores want the end game raids to stay hard, not nerfed just cause only 1 guild has beaten it so far, they want to try and try and feel that rush of accomplishment when they finally beat it. The carebears want to kill the final boss the first night the raid is released.
The simple way to cater to both is to have carebear servers, and hardcore servers. The hardcore servers will be what the game was meant to be, the carebear servers would have nerfs to dungeon/raid bosses, increased exp, items given to them for absolutely no reason like using the dungeon finder tool and killing the boss(as if you wouldn't have done so already). If dev's would only follow that approach, both sides would be happy, sure there'll still be a few issues that others will have complaint, like the combat mechanics but you'll always have haters no matter what you do, but this way will at least minimize the haters.
Hmm, that's not a bad idea on paper, but I wonder how practical it is to ask the devs to maintain two seperate sets of code?
Doesn't seem as simple as "pvp" or "normal" servers. Or in the case of EQ's legacy servers (I think that's what they are called) the code already existed in tested form.
In realty, the people who do not continue to play and.or subscribe are the ones rebuking them. I think an additional fact is that although many people talk about how much we liked the older concepts in games, the fact is that there is still an appeal, albeit a different appeal to the new model being developed as well. If not for what it is now, but where it is going. There is alot of crying about where the genre is, where it is going etc. etc. The biggest issue is that there have been bits and pieces of really different and interesting concepts in gaming from multiple sources. Big name and Indie alike. Most of us have noticed those glimpses of potential. However, alot of people have different opinions of what they like. Now they want one MMO that has all those pieces of what THEY liked all wrapped up into one game. For every gamer that likes a vast world they have to run in with no fast travel, there is a gamer that will cry about it and threaten to quit. For every gamer that likes a death penalty there is a gamer who will cry about it and threaten to quit. And on and on. How could you really ever please this genre in this day and age? It would be great if games focused on a market inside the genre (i.e. punishing/challenging mmorpgs) but the fact is that whenever these concepts are implemented into games these days the QQ flag raises so high that they eventually ease up on it. I could be wrong and maybe someone will hold the line and stick to a challlenging concept, but I doubt it. They would more likely release it and then relent at the backlash in fear of a dying playerbase like most of the rest.
its actually alot more simple than you might think for a single game to cater to those different groups of people. You see, it really comes down to the fact that there's 2 major different groups of mmo players, carebears and hardcores. The hardcores want the end game raids to stay hard, not nerfed just cause only 1 guild has beaten it so far, they want to try and try and feel that rush of accomplishment when they finally beat it. The carebears want to kill the final boss the first night the raid is released.
The simple way to cater to both is to have carebear servers, and hardcore servers. The hardcore servers will be what the game was meant to be, the carebear servers would have nerfs to dungeon/raid bosses, increased exp, items given to them for absolutely no reason like using the dungeon finder tool and killing the boss(as if you wouldn't have done so already). If dev's would only follow that approach, both sides would be happy, sure there'll still be a few issues that others will have complaint, like the combat mechanics but you'll always have haters no matter what you do, but this way will at least minimize the haters.
I'm not necessarliy sure I agree with carebear and hardcore servers, however I do think any game with an expansion should always keep a progressive server.
Example, if WoW was on Wrath of the Lich King, it would have a server that was only vanilla, and after the the raid content of Vanilla was conquered, move to Burning Legion, and then once that was complete merge into a live server. Rinse and repeat. This way players that may have started later get to see the game in its original form. Beat the old bosses in a fair environment without the ability to twink up, and experience the original content the way it was meant to be delivered.
Wait, didn't I just read this very same post yesterday? And the day before that... And the day before that ad naseum...
We get it, no one ikes "themeparks", everyone wants a "sandbox".
And yet I am still waiting to see a badass "sandbox" game that has staying power. And no, EvE is not my cup of tea, now thake it and make the ships people and give them swords and such, well that's a different story.
Oh, and obviously you ARE the minority or you would be playing your ideal game, along with a ton of us...
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
I don't think anyone blames them; as I said, it is simply a natural limitation with regards to this particular form of entertainment.
As far as I am concerned, when the driving force and inspiration behind a game is what a marketing spreadsheet tells you it is, we've more or less lost our collective way.
'Lost' by who?
Making what people will buy is good.
The aim of an entertainment form is ultimately to entertain someone.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
There is a market for you and you deserve to have games that cater to yoru wishes, but you are not who gets to determine where this genre goes.
Yep, the "Ax/Syth/Kyl/you" thread said everything that needs to be said. Until someone waves a magic wand and makes those old features appealing to the masses, your best bet is to find the game closest to what you like, and live with it; or move on.
Anybody remember Motor City Online? You could customize your car to insane level. The engine itself had several parts, and each part wasn't just some "good/better/best" system; you had to know what parts complemented others.
For example: Do you know what an Edelbrock Tunnel Ram intake manifold is? What it does and what benefits it provides? Neither does about 99% of the population. In other words, MCO was almost deliberately limiting their potential subscriber base to 1% of the population.
It's really an extreme (but real) metaphor for what alot of those old games were, and why they either no longer exist or have comparably tiny player bases, today. I loved MCO, but I have no doubts as to why it failed, and despite the build complexity being one of the things I liked best about it, I know better than to think someone will bring back a design philosophy that costs a game subs.
To be fair, Kyleran fabricated that "quote" of mine.
I don't agree with the idea that all niche players "deserve" to have games which cater to their wishes, as it's that very sense of entitlement which creates threads like these.
Where there's enough heat, there's fire.
If your interests lie somewhere where there's little heat, don't be surprised if there's no fire.
To be fair I think if you look closely it wasn't me who did any fabrication of your quote, if I had you would have been seen to admit to secretly enjoying wearing ladies underwear while playing MMORPG's
I went back through some threads to find this chain and couldn't, but I did find a number of threads that had been heavily moderated and torn to bits in some cases (even my sage responses had been removed) so perhaps in the purge somehow the continuity chains got screwed up in the process.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I wanted to see if there is anyone out there that carries my beliefs about how I wish MMO's were vs how they are today. Here are my opinions.
1) The AAA Themeparks of today carry no risk. You die and you respawn with all your inventory, over, and over, again.
2) Crafting systems should be deep. I dont want a system of having mats in your bag and hit 'create'. I want to mine metal, crush/wash the rocks. Put it in a furnace with a catalyst. etc. And maybe if I dont get killed during the process I will make my set of armor or whatnot.
3) I feel graphics of todays most popular MMO's are cartoony. I love realism, and hate flash and over-coloring, and overexaggeration of weapons, shoulderpads, etc.
4) I get frusterated by MMO developers who continue pushing out the same kind of product with a new gimmick here and there. Because I know that if they just put the PC focus-group crap aside and focused on making a detailed sandbox with all the proper tools that it would be truly epic.
5) RMT's ruin the competiveness in the world, even if its just looking cool because that can be a competition in itself.
6) Instances are retarded. Just open them up and allow other players to attack you in the dungeon you are in. Also dont make a beginning and end to the dungeon- there doesnt need to be that 100% of the time(think EQ1's Guk or even Blackrock Mtn)
7) Companions ruin the challenge. Not every class or skill build doesnt have to be able to solo as well as the other.
8) Players create a level 1 and they are geared already---rediculous. I want underwear or nothing on and a stick. I guess its time to gather materials so I can craft some pants and gather food or else I will go hungry or starve.
---ETC (Could carry this list on and on, and on)
Anyone out there like me? Are we slowing shrinking in number?
PS- A little background on me is I started with EQ1 in 99 and have played many themeparks and sandboxes and the only games that seem challenging and fun because of fantasy setting to me now is Mortal Online and Darkfall.
Try eve online indepth crafting and the devs start you out with a stick thats been broken in half a few times. :P
Ok here is the issue. It takes 60+ Million Dollers to make a decent high quality MMO, at LEAST. Someone needs to give a studio this money, if they are an indie company, since they have no other source of income.
Then add to that X years, lets say 5-7 years to develop the game, making no money. Then you release with the hope that there are enough people to play, you you can start recouping the cost of development after X amount of time, and only THEN can you start to make a profit. If you judged wrong, your company fails and closes.
Anyone ever think that there just arent enough potential players to justify such a risk? especially with the history of Darkfall, mortal, and others.
You say, well just make the game good/bug free, but the money runs out eventually.
I agree with every point in your post.For me that means not playing ANY mmog at this time.
This is a limitation of the video game market; the inability to address a wide range of tastes.
It would be like the music industry offering ONLY Justin Bieber and then Beiber fans telling the rest of us that the world of music has passed us by.
If it cost 50-80 million to bring an album of music to the market, then that probably would be the case.
Fortunately on that front, it's getting cheaper and cheaper to record and distribute music. Unfortunately on the MMO front, it's not really getting any cheaper to make an MMO. Maybe that will change, someday.
Ok here is the issue. It takes 60+ Million Dollers to make a decent high quality MMO, at LEAST. Someone needs to give a studio this money, if they are an indie company, since they have no other source of income.
Then add to that X years, lets say 5-7 years to develop the game, making no money. Then you release with the hope that there are enough people to play, you you can start recouping the cost of development after X amount of time, and only THEN can you start to make a profit. If you judged wrong, your company fails and closes.
Anyone ever think that there just arent enough potential players to justify such a risk? especially with the history of Darkfall, mortal, and others.
You say, well just make the game good/bug free, but the money runs out eventually.
This is relevant. But I'd add to it the target market/audience... which over the course of the time it takes to make the game has changed, grown up, moved on, etc.
There are a lot of players out there who want sophisticated themeparks. And a lot of players who want complete sandboxes. And a lot, but not as many, who want hardcore, open world PvP. And a bunch who want significant death penalties. And on and on.
The money talks here. If you want something that's not out there right now, you'll have to build it or sell the idea to someone who can. Meantime, there are a LOT of players willing to spend a LOT of money on whatever game developers make. And then they'll complain about it later ...
Ok here is the issue. It takes 60+ Million Dollers to make a decent high quality MMO, at LEAST. Someone needs to give a studio this money, if they are an indie company, since they have no other source of income.
Then add to that X years, lets say 5-7 years to develop the game, making no money. Then you release with the hope that there are enough people to play, you you can start recouping the cost of development after X amount of time, and only THEN can you start to make a profit. If you judged wrong, your company fails and closes. Anyone ever think that there just arent enough potential players to justify such a risk? especially with the history of Darkfall, mortal, and others.
You say, well just make the game good/bug free, but the money runs out eventually.
Ok, here is the thing. If 60 Million dollars were to be allocated to an MMO, it would be an investment on the part of a big name company (EA, Activision, SOE etc.). When an investor gives 60 million dollars to somebody (you are talking major labels with top of the line standards in regards to polish, graphics, etc) they have a say in what happens to that 60 million dollars. Why? Because nobody wants to spend 60 mil for a corner of the market when they can invest 60 mil on a product that reaches the whole market. When the dev starts making a product that isnt a good investment anymore, they pull their money, shut down the project and count their losses. or, they all sit down and the investor tells the dev to go unfuck himself or lose the money. Indie games are indie for a reason. They create the game independantly so as to not have those problems. Hence, less money equalling less capability, polish and/or graphics.
I misread the comment I quoted due to children and the wife, but yes. The risk is exactly why that kind of money doesnt go into these super cool ideas everyone is always talking about. They are really only super cool if you arent the one risking said amount of money.
I'm not necessarliy sure I agree with carebear and hardcore servers, however I do think any game with an expansion should always keep a progressive server. Example, if WoW was on Wrath of the Lich King, it would have a server that was only vanilla, and after the the raid content of Vanilla was conquered, move to Burning Legion, and then once that was complete merge into a live server. Rinse and repeat. This way players that may have started later get to see the game in its original form. Beat the old bosses in a fair environment without the ability to twink up, and experience the original content the way it was meant to be delivered.
Are there enough people who want a "vanilla" server to justify the cost? I am more than happy to go back to old raid dungeons to do transmorg run.
I'm not necessarliy sure I agree with carebear and hardcore servers, however I do think any game with an expansion should always keep a progressive server. Example, if WoW was on Wrath of the Lich King, it would have a server that was only vanilla, and after the the raid content of Vanilla was conquered, move to Burning Legion, and then once that was complete merge into a live server. Rinse and repeat. This way players that may have started later get to see the game in its original form. Beat the old bosses in a fair environment without the ability to twink up, and experience the original content the way it was meant to be delivered.
Are there enough people who want a "vanilla" server to justify the cost? I am more than happy to go back to old raid dungeons to do transmorg run.
Im sure cost is the issue. That idea is not taking any of that into consideration. However, with the amount of people that take an interest in playing the Private Vanilla servers out there, there is a market. I would say keeping players for a server with less people or maintenace, bugs already worked out years in the past wouldnt be a smallinvestment to keep the playerbase paying for my game. Again, I do not know the cost compared to retention ratio either.
More than that it is a service. Just an additional option to allow players to see content that you have already released in its original context. Maybe not feasible, but just an idea to regurgitate old content in a new way.
I'm not necessarliy sure I agree with carebear and hardcore servers, however I do think any game with an expansion should always keep a progressive server. Example, if WoW was on Wrath of the Lich King, it would have a server that was only vanilla, and after the the raid content of Vanilla was conquered, move to Burning Legion, and then once that was complete merge into a live server. Rinse and repeat. This way players that may have started later get to see the game in its original form. Beat the old bosses in a fair environment without the ability to twink up, and experience the original content the way it was meant to be delivered.
Are there enough people who want a "vanilla" server to justify the cost? I am more than happy to go back to old raid dungeons to do transmorg run.
Im sure cost is the issue. That idea is not taking any of that into consideration. However, with the amount of people that take an interest in playing the Private Vanilla servers out there, there is a market. I would say keeping players for a server with less people or maintenace, bugs already worked out years in the past wouldnt be a smallinvestment to keep the playerbase paying for my game. Again, I do not know the cost compared to retention ratio either. More than that it is a service. Just an additional option to allow players to see content that you have already released in its original context. Maybe not feasible, but just an idea to regurgitate old content in a new way.
I don't know how feasible the financials are for this.
However, blizz does regurgitate old content a lot by making max level versions of early content: deadmines, SFK, the troll raids, Oxynia, and they willl do more of it in the expansion.
I wanted to see if there is anyone out there that carries my beliefs about how I wish MMO's were vs how they are today. Here are my opinions.
1) The AAA Themeparks of today carry no risk. You die and you respawn with all your inventory, over, and over, again.
2) Crafting systems should be deep. I dont want a system of having mats in your bag and hit 'create'. I want to mine metal, crush/wash the rocks. Put it in a furnace with a catalyst. etc. And maybe if I dont get killed during the process I will make my set of armor or whatnot.
3) I feel graphics of todays most popular MMO's are cartoony. I love realism, and hate flash and over-coloring, and overexaggeration of weapons, shoulderpads, etc.
4) I get frusterated by MMO developers who continue pushing out the same kind of product with a new gimmick here and there. Because I know that if they just put the PC focus-group crap aside and focused on making a detailed sandbox with all the proper tools that it would be truly epic.
5) RMT's ruin the competiveness in the world, even if its just looking cool because that can be a competition in itself.
6) Instances are retarded. Just open them up and allow other players to attack you in the dungeon you are in. Also dont make a beginning and end to the dungeon- there doesnt need to be that 100% of the time(think EQ1's Guk or even Blackrock Mtn)
7) Companions ruin the challenge. Not every class or skill build doesnt have to be able to solo as well as the other.
8) Players create a level 1 and they are geared already---rediculous. I want underwear or nothing on and a stick. I guess its time to gather materials so I can craft some pants and gather food or else I will go hungry or starve.
---ETC (Could carry this list on and on, and on)
Anyone out there like me? Are we slowing shrinking in number?
PS- A little background on me is I started with EQ1 in 99 and have played many themeparks and sandboxes and the only games that seem challenging and fun because of fantasy setting to me now is Mortal Online and Darkfall.
Try eve online indepth crafting and the devs start you out with a stick thats been broken in half a few times. :P
Tried Eve. Its hard for me to internalize and RP a ship with an avatars portrait. Anyway, my OP was not to search for something to play. I already have a game I enjoy and am playing. I am just wondering why there are so many that like the numerous themeparks that are announced week by week. It seems like my kind are dwindling.
I wanted to see if there is anyone out there that carries my beliefs about how I wish MMO's were vs how they are today. Here are my opinions.
1) The AAA Themeparks of today carry no risk. You die and you respawn with all your inventory, over, and over, again.
2) Crafting systems should be deep. I dont want a system of having mats in your bag and hit 'create'. I want to mine metal, crush/wash the rocks. Put it in a furnace with a catalyst. etc. And maybe if I dont get killed during the process I will make my set of armor or whatnot.
3) I feel graphics of todays most popular MMO's are cartoony. I love realism, and hate flash and over-coloring, and overexaggeration of weapons, shoulderpads, etc.
4) I get frusterated by MMO developers who continue pushing out the same kind of product with a new gimmick here and there. Because I know that if they just put the PC focus-group crap aside and focused on making a detailed sandbox with all the proper tools that it would be truly epic.
5) RMT's ruin the competiveness in the world, even if its just looking cool because that can be a competition in itself.
6) Instances are retarded. Just open them up and allow other players to attack you in the dungeon you are in. Also dont make a beginning and end to the dungeon- there doesnt need to be that 100% of the time(think EQ1's Guk or even Blackrock Mtn)
7) Companions ruin the challenge. Not every class or skill build doesnt have to be able to solo as well as the other.
8) Players create a level 1 and they are geared already---rediculous. I want underwear or nothing on and a stick. I guess its time to gather materials so I can craft some pants and gather food or else I will go hungry or starve.
---ETC (Could carry this list on and on, and on)
Anyone out there like me? Are we slowing shrinking in number?
PS- A little background on me is I started with EQ1 in 99 and have played many themeparks and sandboxes and the only games that seem challenging and fun because of fantasy setting to me now is Mortal Online and Darkfall.
Trust me when I tell you this - You are not alone.
Its sad because today, we got an amazing video of The Repopulation where you can make a city in a persistant world. And people are falling over themselves about prepurchasing the latest themepark shallow combat fest.
i really have no idea about this games PVP plans, or whether that info is out there or not, and i'm not going to look. don't really care this early in the games hype cycle, i'll care down the road. i'm sure alot of people feel that way, the first few times they hear about an upcoming game.
i bet a LOT of people look at that video and assume the game is gonna be another FFA PVP everywhere sandbox with full loot.
based on trends they've been seeing lately (as most people in these forums don't have the imagination to see past existing games).
also the game companies lack imaginations generally too, so ......it MAY be the case again! 8)
AFAIK. but regardless of whatever new info about Repopulation that you may enlighten me with, after this post, it doesn't take away the fact that a lot of people will probably have that reaction, and you can't personally reply to all those people.
If you're just now feeling like a minority i wonder where you've been the last 7-8 years.
People like us were trying to keep hope alive man! And now its been constantly thrown at us that hope is dead and useless. Its like the cool MMO's are always in grasp at the top of a sh$t rope. You keep climbing the sh$t rope to get to the top, only to find sh$t. Now you are all sh$tty and you start sliding down the sh$t rope only to fall in a pile of sh$t. Then a sh$t hawk circles around waiting for your impending doom only to sh$t on you while you are down in a pile of sh$t.
Darkfall had its points, but with Darkfall 2.0 around the corner, it would be stupid to jump in. Not knowing if your accout will be "restarted". Plus, it has that Eve quality about it that does not cater to newer players (I have a decently high level char on their already so I know). Mortal Online... don't even get me started. What we really need is a true investment into a cool game that doesn't babysit you.
I guess the market is just gone... *cries while laying in a pile of sh&t covered in sh$t*
OH! it will turn and it'll turn present MMO fans into the whinging nostalgia filled naval gazing types we see in this thread. "Do you remember Vanilla WoW its was sooooooo much deeper than all new MMO's" actually thats already started. My advice is enjoy whats available NOW and if you don't then find something else to do until you find MMO's interesting again. Lifes too short to keep trying to change the course of modern MMO's with thread after thread after thread like this one, find something productive to do like this post.
My personal advice service is free to all who can read.
Also support this site...http://sandboxer.org/?page_id=5 and make MMO companies see there is a market to be furnished. Be proactive and direct your energies in a positive manner rather than expect things to come to you, get up off your arses and make them happen.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
I wanted to see if there is anyone out there that carries my beliefs about how I wish MMO's were vs how they are today. Here are my opinions.
1) The AAA Themeparks of today carry no risk. You die and you respawn with all your inventory, over, and over, again.
2) Crafting systems should be deep. I dont want a system of having mats in your bag and hit 'create'. I want to mine metal, crush/wash the rocks. Put it in a furnace with a catalyst. etc. And maybe if I dont get killed during the process I will make my set of armor or whatnot.
3) I feel graphics of todays most popular MMO's are cartoony. I love realism, and hate flash and over-coloring, and overexaggeration of weapons, shoulderpads, etc.
4) I get frusterated by MMO developers who continue pushing out the same kind of product with a new gimmick here and there. Because I know that if they just put the PC focus-group crap aside and focused on making a detailed sandbox with all the proper tools that it would be truly epic.
5) RMT's ruin the competiveness in the world, even if its just looking cool because that can be a competition in itself.
6) Instances are retarded. Just open them up and allow other players to attack you in the dungeon you are in. Also dont make a beginning and end to the dungeon- there doesnt need to be that 100% of the time(think EQ1's Guk or even Blackrock Mtn)
7) Companions ruin the challenge. Not every class or skill build doesnt have to be able to solo as well as the other.
8) Players create a level 1 and they are geared already---rediculous. I want underwear or nothing on and a stick. I guess its time to gather materials so I can craft some pants and gather food or else I will go hungry or starve.
---ETC (Could carry this list on and on, and on)
Anyone out there like me? Are we slowing shrinking in number?
PS- A little background on me is I started with EQ1 in 99 and have played many themeparks and sandboxes and the only games that seem challenging and fun because of fantasy setting to me now is Mortal Online and Darkfall.
Try eve online indepth crafting and the devs start you out with a stick thats been broken in half a few times. :P
Tried Eve. Its hard for me to internalize and RP a ship with an avatars portrait. Anyway, my OP was not to search for something to play. I already have a game I enjoy and am playing. I am just wondering why there are so many that like the numerous themeparks that are announced week by week. It seems like my kind are dwindling.
I wanted to see if there is anyone out there that carries my beliefs about how I wish MMO's were vs how they are today. Here are my opinions. -snip-
Anyone out there like me? Are we slowing shrinking in number?
PS- A little background on me is I started with EQ1 in 99 and have played many themeparks and sandboxes and the only games that seem challenging and fun because of fantasy setting to me now is Mortal Online and Darkfall.
There's a couple of things I'd summarize goes close to the Virtual Worlds idea of VWRPG:
1. Worlds need to sustain a sense of truly large place.
-> Maps need to be looked at: potential for a node style travel between size of map; perhaps procedural generation?
-> Or if smaller and more connected/seemless and persistent, then more changeable and malleable.
2. Systems in mmorpgs need to be more integrated ie sandbox style.
-> combat although fun, there needs to be a meta-context to it to feed into the world consequences for qualification for VM-prefix.
-> avatars need to be have more states than a power progression and need to be objects as part of the world instead of demigods who don't need basics and where everyone is at the top of the pyriamid all the time.
--------------
One of the problems with achieving the above is that eg combat system may not be as fun as a more themepark-oriented design that takes dev time and money to nail this. Also most players really want to play a game with combat more than other activities. So how to promote the idea that players can do these things to feed into their combat to make it more rewarding and possibilities? Also the above system is more complex and that by necessity TAKES TIME to learn the game system. A lot of devs like to use current systems which most gamers are already schooled in using over years of use! Ack!
I am immensely enjoying Pathfinder Online blogs and intend to start EvE when time/cash permits. So there are some good egs that lean towards an alternative. DF and MO maybe as well, no idea about them.
I wanted to see if there is anyone out there that carries my beliefs about how I wish MMO's were vs how they are today. Here are my opinions.
7) Companions ruin the challenge. Not every class or skill build doesnt have to be able to solo as well as the other.
8) Players create a level 1 and they are geared already---rediculous. I want underwear or nothing on and a stick. I guess its time to gather materials so I can craft some pants and gather food or else I will go hungry or starve.
---ETC (Could carry this list on and on, and on)
Anyone out there like me? Are we slowing shrinking in number?
PS- A little background on me is I started with EQ1 in 99 and have played many themeparks and sandboxes and the only games that seem challenging and fun because of fantasy setting to me now is Mortal Online and Darkfall.
I especially agree with 7 and 8. I once created a character and only had to walk it to the gate of the starter zone and it lvled. That just made me want to shake the devs until their teeth rattled.
Money is king and most players are to casual for almost everything on your list. less casuals = less money.
This.
And even if the absolute number of players like you is not shrinking, it is a shrinking portion of the whole market.
Sounds like MO and DF (waiting for DF2 myself) are the games for you and it's good that you've found them and enjoy them. Let's be glad we have those. Maybe one day, someone will make a UO2-type game properly.
Comments
Hmm, that's not a bad idea on paper, but I wonder how practical it is to ask the devs to maintain two seperate sets of code?
Doesn't seem as simple as "pvp" or "normal" servers. Or in the case of EQ's legacy servers (I think that's what they are called) the code already existed in tested form.
its actually alot more simple than you might think for a single game to cater to those different groups of people. You see, it really comes down to the fact that there's 2 major different groups of mmo players, carebears and hardcores. The hardcores want the end game raids to stay hard, not nerfed just cause only 1 guild has beaten it so far, they want to try and try and feel that rush of accomplishment when they finally beat it. The carebears want to kill the final boss the first night the raid is released.
The simple way to cater to both is to have carebear servers, and hardcore servers. The hardcore servers will be what the game was meant to be, the carebear servers would have nerfs to dungeon/raid bosses, increased exp, items given to them for absolutely no reason like using the dungeon finder tool and killing the boss(as if you wouldn't have done so already). If dev's would only follow that approach, both sides would be happy, sure there'll still be a few issues that others will have complaint, like the combat mechanics but you'll always have haters no matter what you do, but this way will at least minimize the haters.
I'm not necessarliy sure I agree with carebear and hardcore servers, however I do think any game with an expansion should always keep a progressive server.Example, if WoW was on Wrath of the Lich King, it would have a server that was only vanilla, and after the the raid content of Vanilla was conquered, move to Burning Legion, and then once that was complete merge into a live server. Rinse and repeat. This way players that may have started later get to see the game in its original form. Beat the old bosses in a fair environment without the ability to twink up, and experience the original content the way it was meant to be delivered.
Wait, didn't I just read this very same post yesterday? And the day before that... And the day before that ad naseum...
We get it, no one ikes "themeparks", everyone wants a "sandbox".
And yet I am still waiting to see a badass "sandbox" game that has staying power. And no, EvE is not my cup of tea, now thake it and make the ships people and give them swords and such, well that's a different story.
Oh, and obviously you ARE the minority or you would be playing your ideal game, along with a ton of us...
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
'Lost' by who?
Making what people will buy is good.
The aim of an entertainment form is ultimately to entertain someone.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
To be fair I think if you look closely it wasn't me who did any fabrication of your quote, if I had you would have been seen to admit to secretly enjoying wearing ladies underwear while playing MMORPG's
I went back through some threads to find this chain and couldn't, but I did find a number of threads that had been heavily moderated and torn to bits in some cases (even my sage responses had been removed) so perhaps in the purge somehow the continuity chains got screwed up in the process.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Try eve online indepth crafting and the devs start you out with a stick thats been broken in half a few times. :P
Ok here is the issue. It takes 60+ Million Dollers to make a decent high quality MMO, at LEAST. Someone needs to give a studio this money, if they are an indie company, since they have no other source of income.
Then add to that X years, lets say 5-7 years to develop the game, making no money. Then you release with the hope that there are enough people to play, you you can start recouping the cost of development after X amount of time, and only THEN can you start to make a profit. If you judged wrong, your company fails and closes.
Anyone ever think that there just arent enough potential players to justify such a risk? especially with the history of Darkfall, mortal, and others.
You say, well just make the game good/bug free, but the money runs out eventually.
If it cost 50-80 million to bring an album of music to the market, then that probably would be the case.
Fortunately on that front, it's getting cheaper and cheaper to record and distribute music. Unfortunately on the MMO front, it's not really getting any cheaper to make an MMO. Maybe that will change, someday.
This is relevant. But I'd add to it the target market/audience... which over the course of the time it takes to make the game has changed, grown up, moved on, etc.
There are a lot of players out there who want sophisticated themeparks. And a lot of players who want complete sandboxes. And a lot, but not as many, who want hardcore, open world PvP. And a bunch who want significant death penalties. And on and on.
The money talks here. If you want something that's not out there right now, you'll have to build it or sell the idea to someone who can. Meantime, there are a LOT of players willing to spend a LOT of money on whatever game developers make. And then they'll complain about it later ...
Ok, here is the thing. If 60 Million dollars were to be allocated to an MMO, it would be an investment on the part of a big name company (EA, Activision, SOE etc.). When an investor gives 60 million dollars to somebody (you are talking major labels with top of the line standards in regards to polish, graphics, etc) they have a say in what happens to that 60 million dollars. Why? Because nobody wants to spend 60 mil for a corner of the market when they can invest 60 mil on a product that reaches the whole market. When the dev starts making a product that isnt a good investment anymore, they pull their money, shut down the project and count their losses. or, they all sit down and the investor tells the dev to go unfuck himself or lose the money. Indie games are indie for a reason. They create the game independantly so as to not have those problems. Hence, less money equalling less capability, polish and/or graphics.Are there enough people who want a "vanilla" server to justify the cost? I am more than happy to go back to old raid dungeons to do transmorg run.
Are there enough people who want a "vanilla" server to justify the cost? I am more than happy to go back to old raid dungeons to do transmorg run.
Im sure cost is the issue. That idea is not taking any of that into consideration. However, with the amount of people that take an interest in playing the Private Vanilla servers out there, there is a market. I would say keeping players for a server with less people or maintenace, bugs already worked out years in the past wouldnt be a smallinvestment to keep the playerbase paying for my game. Again, I do not know the cost compared to retention ratio either.More than that it is a service. Just an additional option to allow players to see content that you have already released in its original context. Maybe not feasible, but just an idea to regurgitate old content in a new way.
I don't know how feasible the financials are for this.
However, blizz does regurgitate old content a lot by making max level versions of early content: deadmines, SFK, the troll raids, Oxynia, and they willl do more of it in the expansion.
Tried Eve. Its hard for me to internalize and RP a ship with an avatars portrait. Anyway, my OP was not to search for something to play. I already have a game I enjoy and am playing. I am just wondering why there are so many that like the numerous themeparks that are announced week by week. It seems like my kind are dwindling.
Trust me when I tell you this - You are not alone.
i really have no idea about this games PVP plans, or whether that info is out there or not, and i'm not going to look. don't really care this early in the games hype cycle, i'll care down the road. i'm sure alot of people feel that way, the first few times they hear about an upcoming game.
i bet a LOT of people look at that video and assume the game is gonna be another FFA PVP everywhere sandbox with full loot.
based on trends they've been seeing lately (as most people in these forums don't have the imagination to see past existing games).
also the game companies lack imaginations generally too, so ......it MAY be the case again! 8)
AFAIK. but regardless of whatever new info about Repopulation that you may enlighten me with, after this post, it doesn't take away the fact that a lot of people will probably have that reaction, and you can't personally reply to all those people.
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Corpus Callosum
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People like us were trying to keep hope alive man! And now its been constantly thrown at us that hope is dead and useless. Its like the cool MMO's are always in grasp at the top of a sh$t rope. You keep climbing the sh$t rope to get to the top, only to find sh$t. Now you are all sh$tty and you start sliding down the sh$t rope only to fall in a pile of sh$t. Then a sh$t hawk circles around waiting for your impending doom only to sh$t on you while you are down in a pile of sh$t.
Darkfall had its points, but with Darkfall 2.0 around the corner, it would be stupid to jump in. Not knowing if your accout will be "restarted". Plus, it has that Eve quality about it that does not cater to newer players (I have a decently high level char on their already so I know). Mortal Online... don't even get me started. What we really need is a true investment into a cool game that doesn't babysit you.
I guess the market is just gone... *cries while laying in a pile of sh&t covered in sh$t*
DF 2.0, it's our only hope.
OH! it will turn and it'll turn present MMO fans into the whinging nostalgia filled naval gazing types we see in this thread. "Do you remember Vanilla WoW its was sooooooo much deeper than all new MMO's" actually thats already started.
My advice is enjoy whats available NOW and if you don't then find something else to do until you find MMO's interesting again. Lifes too short to keep trying to change the course of modern MMO's with thread after thread after thread like this one, find something productive to do like this post.
My personal advice service is free to all who can read.
Also support this site...http://sandboxer.org/?page_id=5 and make MMO companies see there is a market to be furnished. Be proactive and direct your energies in a positive manner rather than expect things to come to you, get up off your arses and make them happen.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
I can tell you tried RPing a minmatar ship...
Amarr Victor!
There's a couple of things I'd summarize goes close to the Virtual Worlds idea of VWRPG:
1. Worlds need to sustain a sense of truly large place.
-> Maps need to be looked at: potential for a node style travel between size of map; perhaps procedural generation?
-> Or if smaller and more connected/seemless and persistent, then more changeable and malleable.
2. Systems in mmorpgs need to be more integrated ie sandbox style.
-> combat although fun, there needs to be a meta-context to it to feed into the world consequences for qualification for VM-prefix.
-> avatars need to be have more states than a power progression and need to be objects as part of the world instead of demigods who don't need basics and where everyone is at the top of the pyriamid all the time.
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One of the problems with achieving the above is that eg combat system may not be as fun as a more themepark-oriented design that takes dev time and money to nail this. Also most players really want to play a game with combat more than other activities. So how to promote the idea that players can do these things to feed into their combat to make it more rewarding and possibilities? Also the above system is more complex and that by necessity TAKES TIME to learn the game system. A lot of devs like to use current systems which most gamers are already schooled in using over years of use! Ack!
I am immensely enjoying Pathfinder Online blogs and intend to start EvE when time/cash permits. So there are some good egs that lean towards an alternative. DF and MO maybe as well, no idea about them.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
I especially agree with 7 and 8. I once created a character and only had to walk it to the gate of the starter zone and it lvled. That just made me want to shake the devs until their teeth rattled.
These games cost 8 or 9 digit figures to make. Kind of obvious that they won't include mechanics that intimidate casuals and co.
Of course EvE has proven that it can be done... but I think those days are gone and they will not come back.
This.
And even if the absolute number of players like you is not shrinking, it is a shrinking portion of the whole market.
Sounds like MO and DF (waiting for DF2 myself) are the games for you and it's good that you've found them and enjoy them. Let's be glad we have those. Maybe one day, someone will make a UO2-type game properly.