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I have a top of the line Alienware PC and I always win. Also, I always have flashy lights coming out of the my computer AND my computer came with a free hat!
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
Originally posted by paulytheb Is a 3000 dollar gaming PC pay2win? Just an honest question. In all the pay to win conversations going on around here I seldom see much mention of the PC's that some gamers have while most people have a Dell or a Wal Mart or Best Buy PC with a new video card maybe. Is buying the best possible bandwith speed pay2win? I know there are sever tiers here where I live with the roadrunner service. If these things ARE NOT pay2win, then what is ? Where is the line drawn? Sorry if this aspect has been covered before. I must have missed it. I am however, genuinely curious where people think the line is drawn. It is not like you can go buy a thousand dollar better Xbox. TYIA
What i can make up from that marked line is that you already believe it is and i have to say;
Really ? so just because someone spent more on their pc then some other dude who spent less on his, the first is now paying to win? What exactly is he winning to begin with ?Having the bigger e-peen when he shows off his pc speccs on the internet ?
Also having a better pc then another person does not make you better at gaming nor does it make you insta win games.
Not to mention 3000 is A LOT for a gaming pc, i wouldn't even come close to that in euro's when building a new pc and i would still have a pc that would last me a good 3 to 5 years while still being able to play games that come out around that time.
Originally posted by paulytheb A gaming PC , an expensive one 1500.00 that quizzical built, would that be an advantage over an average 700 dollar tower someone gets at a best buy type store?
A gaming computer that cost $1500 spent wisely has real advantages over a $700 Best Buy computer. But I don't think they constitute "pay to win".
Perhaps I should back up and say, a lot depends on how you define "pay to win". Suppose that two people have a PlayStation 3 game. One of them has bought a PS3. The other doesn't have one. Does the first person have an advantage over the second person in the game in question? Of course: the first person can play the game and the second can't. Does that make the game "pay to win"?
To be fair, you're not arguing for that sort of pedantic version of "pay to win". The real question is, does the ultimate high end gaming system have offer gaming advantages over some cheap junk system that can handle the game. Because if the cheap junk system can't handle the game, then someone who can play a game has an obvious advantage over someone who can't, at least in that particular game. But I'd argue that that doesn't make the super high end system pay to win.
Rather, what you're saying is, does what you'd get from, say, going to Puget Systems and saying you want the best gaming computer they'll get you for $10,000 (roughly equivalent to the best you could buy yourself for $7,000) give you gameplay advantages over, say, this plus some cheap peripherals:
Obviously the expensive computer would have advantages, but would those be real gameplay advantages? Let's go into it one component at a time.
Is a Core i7-3960X processor an advantage over an FX-4100? In games where the processor can't keep up with your monitor's refresh rate, yes. Otherwise, no. In the overwhelming majority of real games on the market, no.
Is 64 GB of system memory an advantage over 8 GB? 64 GB will let the system do more prefetching, but I doubt that you'd see any measurable gameplay benefit from it. Is 2400 MHz system memory an advantage over 1333 MHz? No, not at all.
Is a pair of Radeon HD 7970s in CrossFire an advantage over a single GeForce GT 520? Sure, it will let you turn video settings way up. That will make the game look a lot nicer. But is it a gameplay advantage? Not unless the GeForce GT 520 can't handle the game even on minimum settings. So in most games, no, though it will be an advantage in a lot more games a few years down the road.
Is a 480 GB SSD together with a 3 TB hard drive an advantage over just a 500 GB hard drive? Sure, it will make things load a lot faster. If I can use map travel in Guild Wars in 3 seconds and you take 8 seconds to do the same thing, does that give me an advantage over you? Sure. Is it a big enough advantage to constitute "pay to win"? I'd say no.
Is a full tower case with a high end liquid cooling setup for the processor and video cards that uses a huge radiator on the side of the case and runs the fans slowly an advantage over a simple air cooling setup designed to be cheap while still giving adequate airflow to prevent overheating? Sure, it will let the system run quieter. Does that give you a gameplay advantage? No.
Is a Seasonic Platinum 1000 W an advantage over a cheap junk "500 W" (I'm guessing here) power supply that will explode if you try to pull 400 W from it? Sure, and a large one: reliability matters. Is it a gameplay advantage? Only on days when the cheap junk power supply crashes the system, or perhaps when it eventually releases sparks and smoke and leaves you with a burning smell and a bunch of dead hardware.
Is a Blu-Ray burner an advantage over a simple DVD burner? Not unless you have some use for Blu-Ray. And watching Blu-Ray movies while playing games is probably a gameplay disadvantage, not an advantage.
Is a high end motherboard with all of the bells and whistles an advantage over some cheap junk motherboard? Not until you try to upgrade or overclock something, or the cheap junk motherboard has some component fail.
Is Windows 7 Ultimate an advantage over Windows 7 Home Premium? Not for games it isn't. Everything that Microsoft things you might plausibly need for gaming is included in Home Premium. The Professional edition exists mainly to try to get businesses to pay more. The Ultimate edition exists mainly to give suckers a way to give Microsoft extra money.
Is a $100 "gaming" mouse an advantage over the cheap junk mouse that the Best Buy computer ships you? Possibly. Is it an advantage over a $15 wired laser USB mouse? Only if you need a lot of buttons on the mouse. I haven't come across any games where a simple two button mouse with a pointer, buttons, and a scroll wheel that worked right was at a disadvantage.
Is a $100 "gaming" keyboard an advantage over the cheap junk keyboard that comes with the Best Buy computer? Not unless you need keys for programmable macros and can't figure out how to do that in software with a cheap keyboard.
Is a $200 discrete sound card and a $300 7.1 speaker sound system an advantage over a cheap 2 speaker system with onboard sound? Sure, the sound quality will be better. Is it a gameplay advantage? Not in any game I've ever played. In first person shooters that try not to let you see what's going on, letting you hear what is going on might be an advantage. But I wouldn't know, as I haven't tried it.
Is a $100 "gaming" network card an advantage over a simple onboard ethernet port sent through a 100 Mbps router? In a handful of weird corner cases, yes. Most of the time, maybe it takes 1 ms or so off of your ping time. So yes, it's an advantage. Is it an advantage that you might realistically notice in anything other than a synthetic benchmark? No.
Is a $200 UPS an advantage over a $10 surge protector? Only at times when the electric waveform that you pull from the wall does something weird. When they both just pass the current from the wall straight through, as they likely both do 99.999%+ of the time, they function identically. Even if you have a power outage where you lose power for days, the UPS won't keep the computer running for more than a handful of minutes.
Is an Eyefinity setup with three 30" 2560x1600 monitors and two other monitors off to the side an advantage over, say, this:
(It's a $120, 21.5", 1080p monitor, if you don't want to click.) Sure, the Eyefinity setup will look gorgeous. Is it a gameplay advantage? Here you can actually argue that sometimes it is. In 2D side scrolling, isometric overhead view, or first person shooters, the dramatically larger monitor resolution sometimes does provide a real gameplay advantage. In a very large fraction of games, however, it does not. The only game I've played that released in the last decade where the high resolution is an advantage is Spiral Knights.
And what about the monitors off to the side? Do those give an advantage? Sometimes it can be a great convenience. The cheap computer with a single monitor can have a browser and spreadsheet open in the background, but you'll have to Alt+Tab out to see them. With more monitors, you can put those on separate monitors and not have to Alt+Tab out. That way, if you want to look at a map on a wiki, all you have to do is to turn your head to the side rather than switch back and forth between windows. That's certainly a great convenience, and one that I highly recommend. Is it "pay to win"? I'd say no.
Originally posted by Krelian Hi. I have purchased a 3.380 dollar pc about a week ago (not including the screens, keyboard/mouse, sound system etc)
$3380 excluding peripherals? I sure hope that's not just for gaming, or else that it's not US$. Because otherwise, you spent way too much for no real advantage. Now, if a good chunk of that $3380 was spent on monitors for an Eyefinity setup, then it makes more sense.
My gut reaction was to say no. But there are definite cases where a top end machine can have a huge advantage in large scale PVP and possibly other cases.
no. it's a waste of money.
I've got the straight edge.
You are not paying to win with a $3000 PC. . the guy with the $500 PC is losing because of his game settings. Pay for Pretty maybe.
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
A $3000 gaming PC is nothing but a waste of money. Learn to build your own.
You don't need the top end pc to see stuff in full detail. That being said you can turn down the pretty and just the vital parts and have the exact same benefit... heck you can actually have an advantage with a lower end system running lower settings due to particle effects being in the way.
Originally posted by Tirinas Originally posted by paulytheb Is a 3000 dollar gaming PC pay2win? Just an honest question. In all the pay to win conversations going on around here I seldom see much mention of the PC's that some gamers have while most people have a Dell or a Wal Mart or Best Buy PC with a new video card maybe. Is buying the best possible bandwith speed pay2win? I know there are sever tiers here where I live with the roadrunner service. If these things ARE NOT pay2win, then what is ? Where is the line drawn? Sorry if this aspect has been covered before. I must have missed it. I am however, genuinely curious where people think the line is drawn. It is not like you can go buy a thousand dollar better Xbox. TYIA
As I meantioned previously, I do believe people buy the expensive machines to gain an advantage.
However, where I draw the line is when the company that is selling me the game is trying to blackmail me into spending hundreds of dollars just to be competitive. The person that buys the 3000 dallar machine isn't buying it from the same company that also sold them the game and you CAN be competitive on a less expensive machine. But in p2w games you can't be competitive unless you buy items from there shop.
Just give me a price (14.99 a month) and then get out of my way.
Nope, unless the game is poorly designed so that weak hardware is less competitive. It's not like FPS where LPB gets a huge advantage. For most games it's more dice rolls than twitch skill.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
It depends what resolution you want to play games at...
A high end video card may allow you to render at a greater distance than someone on low settings and in some games may also allow more player characters to be displayed in a given area. Characters can also be hard to distinguish from the background on low settings. This depends on the game of course.
When we start on peripherals such as a programmable mouse and keyboard, you then have macro capability where this may not normally be possible and more buttons means faster reactions in some situations.
I would think that if we needed to establish a baseline for what is fair, we would assume we are fully rendered and lag free.
The amount of influence that computer has over winning is extremely minimal (especially in MMORPGs.)
But yes, despite the incredibly tiny effect it's an undesirable form of pay2win. That's part of why it's so important for games to account for older systems, particularly if they involve direct competition where computer performance might be a factor.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Imo, It isnt, it all coms down to what setting you are using.
I play lots of FPS (Bf3, Wot and so on besides the normal MMo games, )
Old ex. take CS, ppl did uppgrade ther rigg for that game, then, turnd off all the grafix posible to get a smal edge (if i remember, som of the stuff in that game whent faster the more fps you got, (on/off Aiming whit scope on sniper)
But in a MMo,, as long as i can get my lower FPS to 40+ on enygiven time (BLASTED SWTOR,,, 0 FPS ILUM LAGG FEST HATE ARGHHHH..:P) im happy:)
I WANT A SCI-FI MMO!! (NOT EVE, or Fom, or FE)
If you pay 3000 for a gaming PC then your paying too much, as for broadband there will be certain cases where having a better service will make you the better player. Depends on the game.
Originally posted by KyleranOne could argue that having better hardware/internet connections etc might give you a P2W edge, but it really just points out the folly of endlessly trying to make these games "fair" (outright hacking not withstanding)Play your game, do the best you can, and accept the fact that sometimes you are going to lose through no real fault (or control) of your own.In the end, they are just games.
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignonewww.spankybus.com-3d Artist & Compositor-Writer-Professional Amature
Technically it would be pay to play... sorry, couldn't help myself. You do bring up an interesting angle though the issue is companies offering it as part of their game.
Just not worth my time anymore.
I prefer my Merc keyboard. For PvP, I change the video settings, always removing shadows. Play smart dude. That's Play 2 Win!
Originally posted by Smikis someone who spent 1500 instead of 700 on random retailer craptastic and overpriced pc, will always have advantage, but it wont be due fps.. its due smarts.. and no not because someone earns 2k a month and another one earns 1k.. one is addept in IT , another is clueless casual.. its like saying can sprinter outrun, hotdog eating champion..
Thing is, it's the clueless casual's that have the 3000 rigs, and the IT professionals that have the 700 pos. So the Hotdog eating champion's wins the race and thinks they are hot shyte.
When ever you read someone talking about skill in a FPS game they are talking about 3000 vs 1000 rigs, and internet connection lag. When ever you read about "Face Roll" is when a game takes the advantage out for a 3000 machine.
maybe it is P2W but its certainly not an MMO so its meaningless.
the computer exists in real life not in the virtual life.
You can always turn the settings down to get a good enough FPS, but having high latency can be a crippling disadvantage in action MMOs.
For example in AION, a person with sub 100 ms ping would actually attack/use skills significantly faster than someone with a 300 ms ping. This pretty much made some classes unplayable in PvP (Assassin) if you didn't have a good enough ping to the server.
Awesome responses all !
I see that people really have some different idea's on the question. It is really awesome that everyone spoke their peace and didn't go flaming everyone else.
Special thanks to Quizzical for that awesome post. I got a little lost in some of the more technical aspects of what you said, but I do believe and will honor your opinion and bottom line.
If your machine is capable and you are playing at the correct settings, then a more expensive machine does not offer a significant advantage.
I can live with that. It was a fascinating thread to read. Thanks again all.
( Note to self-Don't say anything bad about Drizzt.)
An acerbic sense of humor is NOT allowed here.
im sure its been said alot already, but a Nasa computer wont really give you a P2W situation over a person who bought a 5doller laptop from a pedler on the street.
the only bonus a higher end system might have over a lower end system. is better graphics so a little higher FPS. which unless you are playing something like Skyrim on insane settings wont make a lick of differance in a MMO.
fps might give you a few seconds over a slower system but if your net is the exact same as the other user that wont help you at all.
only thing that beats a system is the net connection. if your ping is 0 and theirs is 300 you might be better off but not really.
though a rig with eyinfity might give you a bonus for the 360* view
typical P2W is being able to spend say 10-20 bucks on an item mall to make a level 1 toon max level, where everyone else has to spend several hours to get there, you are basicly instantly leveled. or being able to buy an item that gives you instant fatality in mortal combat from 1 button press.
ya my examples are insane but meh generally how i rate P2W game models. lolol if they give you a get out of jail free card (monoplay anyone? ) you can only buy to get out of jail.. then its P2W.
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