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Im beginning to feel like a minority... more than before.

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  • EmwynEmwyn MoatshirePosts: 546Member

    Originally posted by Boatsmate

    I wonder if a lot of this is because Games try to cast a huge net and gather up both children and older gamers for maximum profit. In other words what we are talking about is, however you want to describe it, "Good Business Practices", or ,"Corporate Greed at the expense of Gamers". I put both choices in hopes of avoiding the usual run to defend one or the other if you leave it out. I know WoW the first year had a lot of the same players and Guilds I knew from EQ1. Then it was like someone on Wall Street threw  a switch and decided to start targeting ads and gathering up childrens' account money. The game was dumbed down even more, etc, and it worked. Soon the game was full of jump-button smashing children spewing their knowledge of drugs and booze on chat to impress, and soliciting attention with offensive comments and language.All the older gamers left, the normal ones. I see them now in games that children don't claim as their own. I have nothing against Pandas. Cute.

    you're making me feel old Boatsmate :P

    the poster formerly known as melangel :P

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,657Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Dibdabs

    Originally posted by xDayx

    I wanted to see if there is anyone out there that carries my beliefs about how I wish MMO's were vs how they are today.

    You have several hundred posts on this forum, and you're trying to tell me you don't already know the answer to your question?

    It's SOP for the MMO flagellates to take the unaware victim approach when garnering support for their nostalgia circlejerk.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • ThaneThane berlinPosts: 2,232Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by xDayx

    I wanted to see if there is anyone out there that carries my beliefs about how I wish MMO's were vs how they are today. Here are my opinions.

     

    1) The AAA Themeparks of today carry no risk. You die and you respawn with all your inventory, over, and over, again.

    2) Crafting systems should be deep. I dont want a system of having mats in your bag and hit 'create'. I want to mine metal, crush/wash the rocks. Put it in a furnace with a catalyst. etc. And maybe if I dont get killed during the process I will make my set of armor or whatnot.

    3) I feel graphics of todays most popular MMO's are cartoony. I love realism, and hate flash and over-coloring, and overexaggeration of weapons, shoulderpads, etc.

    4) I get frusterated by MMO developers who continue pushing out the same kind of product with a new gimmick here and there. Because I know that if they just put the PC focus-group crap aside and focused on making a detailed sandbox with all the proper tools that it would be truly epic.

    5) RMT's ruin the competiveness in the world, even if its just looking cool because that can be a competition in itself.

    6) Instances are retarded. Just open them up and allow other players to attack you in the dungeon you are in. Also dont make a beginning and end to the dungeon- there doesnt need to be that 100% of the time(think EQ1's Guk or even Blackrock Mtn)

    7) Companions ruin the challenge. Not every class or skill build doesnt have to be able to solo as well as the other.

    8) Players create a level 1 and they are geared already---rediculous. I want underwear or nothing on and a stick. I guess its time to gather materials so I can craft some pants and gather food or else I will go hungry or starve.

    ---ETC (Could carry this list on and on, and on)

     

    Anyone out there like me? Are we slowing shrinking in number?

    PS- A little background on me is I started with EQ1 in 99 and have played many themeparks and sandboxes and the only games that seem challenging and fun because of fantasy setting to me now is Mortal Online and Darkfall.

     

    you know you sound like a daoc player, do ya? :)

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    It's SOP for the MMO flagellates to take the unaware victim approach when garnering support for their nostalgia circlejerk.

    Sorry, I know it's wrong, but that did make me laugh.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • ClassicstarClassicstar rotjeknorPosts: 2,690Member


    Originally posted by xDayx
    I wanted to see if there is anyone out there that carries my beliefs about how I wish MMO's were vs how they are today. Here are my opinions.
     
    1) The AAA Themeparks of today carry no risk. You die and you respawn with all your inventory, over, and over, again.
    2) Crafting systems should be deep. I dont want a system of having mats in your bag and hit 'create'. I want to mine metal, crush/wash the rocks. Put it in a furnace with a catalyst. etc. And maybe if I dont get killed during the process I will make my set of armor or whatnot.
    3) I feel graphics of todays most popular MMO's are cartoony. I love realism, and hate flash and over-coloring, and overexaggeration of weapons, shoulderpads, etc.
    4) I get frusterated by MMO developers who continue pushing out the same kind of product with a new gimmick here and there. Because I know that if they just put the PC focus-group crap aside and focused on making a detailed sandbox with all the proper tools that it would be truly epic.
    5) RMT's ruin the competiveness in the world, even if its just looking cool because that can be a competition in itself.
    6) Instances are retarded. Just open them up and allow other players to attack you in the dungeon you are in. Also dont make a beginning and end to the dungeon- there doesnt need to be that 100% of the time(think EQ1's Guk or even Blackrock Mtn)
    7) Companions ruin the challenge. Not every class or skill build doesnt have to be able to solo as well as the other.
    8) Players create a level 1 and they are geared already---rediculous. I want underwear or nothing on and a stick. I guess its time to gather materials so I can craft some pants and gather food or else I will go hungry or starve.
    ---ETC (Could carry this list on and on, and on)
     
    Anyone out there like me? Are we slowing shrinking in number?
    PS- A little background on me is I started with EQ1 in 99 and have played many themeparks and sandboxes and the only games that seem challenging and fun because of fantasy setting to me now is Mortal Online and Darkfall.
     
     
     

    Most you discribe was already in DARKFALL with awesome looking world and HUGE with no limitations to explore every mountain or swim every sea and every dungeon open to explore no instance no hold hand.

    With free for all FULL LOOT.

    And look how its going down the drain at start many many cheaters also some longterm hardcore i knew from 2003 and all the themeparkers who started at launch.

    Endless whining about grind or cry and whine like little children untill you get your own server(US players) and split up community that couses empty servers.

    YOU PLAYERS YES YOU RUIN these small indie games that offer what many here asking and when its released you CHEAT untill game is dead:(

    MB:MSI Z97XPOWER AC
    CPU:Intell Icore7 4790k
    GPU:MSI 2x AMD 290X
    MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
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    OS:Windows 8.1 64bit)not yet sure i upgrade to windows 10 need to know alot more with integrated cloud and other maybe spy stuff)

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    The wheel will turn.
  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member

    Originally posted by Icewhite

    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    It's SOP for the MMO flagellates to take the unaware victim approach when garnering support for their nostalgia circlejerk.

    Sorry, I know it's wrong, but that did make me laugh.

    Hahaha thats pretty funny. Even if I would be participating in any and all such circle jerks I could find. Cannot wait for Repop. Although I also want to play TSW, GW, and AA. Also I want a non sci fi version of repop.

  • LarsaLarsa NurembergPosts: 990Member

    Originally posted by Boatsmate

    I wonder if a lot of this is because Games try to cast a huge net and gather up both children and older gamers for maximum profit. In other words what we are talking about is, however you want to describe it, "Good Business Practices", or ,"Corporate Greed at the expense of Gamers". I put both choices in hopes of avoiding the usual run to defend one or the other if you leave it out. I know WoW the first year had a lot of the same players and Guilds I knew from EQ1. Then it was like someone on Wall Street threw  a switch and decided to start targeting ads and gathering up childrens' account money. The game was dumbed down even more, etc, and it worked. Soon the game was full of jump-button smashing children spewing their knowledge of drugs and booze on chat to impress, and soliciting attention with offensive comments and language.All the older gamers left, the normal ones. I see them now in games that children don't claim as their own. I have nothing against Pandas. Cute.

    Since quite some time I believe that the gaming industry primarily targets the untapped market, i.e. the non-gamers.

    And, from a business point of view, they are right. Frankly, there is no need to design games for gamers because gamers will buy the games anyway. Thus it makes more business sense to design games for non-gamers, because that's where a large untapped market potential is.

    We, the gamers, the "vets" will buy it anyway, all it takes are a few trailers and previews on gaming sites like this one and initial box sales are practically assured.

    I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.

  • SythionSythion Salem, ORPosts: 422Member

    Originally posted by RefMinor

    The wheel will turn.

    This.

    Though hopefully not in reverse.

    image
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,657Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Cuathon

    Cannot wait for Repop. Although I also want to play TSW, GW, and AA. Also I want a non sci fi version of repop.

    Same here. Eager to see what new directions they go and how that content is received.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • DannyGloverDannyGlover Portland, ORPosts: 1,277Member


    Originally posted by xKingdomx

    Originally posted by DannyGlover
    Its sad because today, we got an amazing video of The Repopulation where you can make a city in a persistant world. And people are falling over themselves about prepurchasing the latest themepark shallow combat fest.
    I don't understand why this is sad, just because people is going to purchase GW2, doesn't undermine the fact that The Repopulation could be popular in the future.
     
    what sad is that I just realise how badly dysfunctional the MMORPG population has become, you have to either support one game and only that one game.
    Its like the console war really.

    Its sad {to me} because the genre is trending towards more combat centric, premade content, non persistent themeparks. The biggest upcoming mmos are just borrowing other genre trademarks instead of building on what made this genre unique. People can play whatever they want and as many games as they want. I dive into themeparks as well as sandboxes. But I became interested in mmos because of the virtual world aspect. And that is clearly not what the majority is interested in.

    I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,716Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Boatsmate

    I wonder if a lot of this is because Games try to cast a huge net and gather up both children and older gamers for maximum profit. In other words what we are talking about is, however you want to describe it, "Good Business Practices", or ,"Corporate Greed at the expense of Gamers". I put both choices in hopes of avoiding the usual run to defend one or the other if you leave it out. I know WoW the first year had a lot of the same players and Guilds I knew from EQ1. Then it was like someone on Wall Street threw  a switch and decided to start targeting ads and gathering up childrens' account money. The game was dumbed down even more, etc, and it worked. Soon the game was full of jump-button smashing children spewing their knowledge of drugs and booze on chat to impress, and soliciting attention with offensive comments and language.All the older gamers left, the normal ones. I see them now in games that children don't claim as their own. I have nothing against Pandas. Cute.

    Except the highpoint for WOW for most gamers came after that first year (because, as a game, first-year WOW had a ton of issues and a ton of them weren't solved until BC.)

    The steps WOW took to solve real gameplay issues and make the game better aren't corporate greed as much as they're MMORPGs learning what it takes to create a game as fun as a non-MMORPG.  Tragically other companies have struggled to get as much non-MMORPG fun crammed into an MMORPG as WOW managed.  Unsurprisingly, they've met with limited success (still success, but limited.)

    The desire to create fun games is only "corporate greed" insofar as the fact that you can make a lot more selling fun games than lousy ones.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • ZekiahZekiah Aurora, COPosts: 2,499Member

    Originally posted by xDayx

    Anyone out there like me? Are we slowing shrinking in number?

     

    Yes, and I'm not so sure about the second question. Before SWTOR I would have said yes but I'm seeing a lot of themepark lovers coming to the same conclusion a lot of us have, it's the same old recycled garbage being fed to us over and over and they're also getting tired of it.

    Time will tell but I think things might finally be turning around thanks to all the jack wagon developers out there. image

    "Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky

  • ElderRatElderRat Syracuse, NYPosts: 899Member

    Originally posted by Sythion

    Originally posted by RefMinor

    The wheel will turn.

    This.

    Though hopefully not in reverse.

    The problem is that it isn't a wheel, it is a sphere and could go off in any direction.

    Currently bored with MMO's.

  • SythionSythion Salem, ORPosts: 422Member

    Originally posted by ElderRat

    Originally posted by Sythion


    Originally posted by RefMinor

    The wheel will turn.

    This.

    Though hopefully not in reverse.

    The problem is that it isn't a wheel, it is a sphere and could go off in any direction.

    With jetpack and jackhammer attachments.

    image
  • GrayGhost79GrayGhost79 Webster, MAPosts: 4,813Member

    Meh, back in the day when I was young on my 486 playing UO I was a one game gamer. As the years have gone by I've grown into an eclectic gamer. 

    Some days I want to go to war, some days I want to simply hang out with friends and family. 

    I do like games similar to you... well maybe not entirely similar I guess. I liked UO, you like DFO and MO though neither fit in with what you posted but... I also like other types of games. 

  • DannyGloverDannyGlover Portland, ORPosts: 1,277Member


    Originally posted by GrayGhost79
    Meh, back in the day when I was young on my 486 playing UO I was a one game gamer. As the years have gone by I've grown into an eclectic gamer. 
    Some days I want to go to war, some days I want to simply hang out with friends and family. 
    I do like games similar to you... well maybe not entirely similar I guess. I liked UO, you like DFO and MO though neither fit in with what you posted but... I also like other types of games. 

    same here pretty much. when I first saw my friend plying UO, I was hooked on the concept of an mmorpg. since the genre exploding into the mainstream, ive seen it change into an mmo version of every other genre out there. There are still small indie devs that hold onto the roots of the genre. Maybe thats how it will always be or should be for that matter. who knows, i guess i just like rooting for the little guy heh

    I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.

  • tawesstawess LkpgPosts: 2,535Member Uncommon

    1; Not really, Comming from UO it is pretty nice to know that the set of plate sword and board i just created using my last ingots can't be stolen by a roving band of insane clowns that does it just for the "lulz". Thanks but no thanks.

    2:Agreed but deep and fun is not the same thing.. In SWG you were pretty much forked if you did not have the respawn system down to a second as no one wanted to buy anything but the absolute best. But Project Entropia have what you are looking for in that department. To bad you are about 6 years behind the good crafters in that game

    3: And general logic dictates that the less complex your graphics are the more people can play your game at a resonable level, and while games like WoW look dated atleast you can buy it due to the simplistic style.. unlike a "realistic" game that never age well. As for the "super" styled gear... It is about siluet recognition, you should be able to identify what is infront of you based on visuals... WAR had some pretty cool ideas going on with this (it was saddly scrapped) to put it simply your character would "age" as he leveld up becomming worn and hardend.

    4: Kick-starter is over there and indiegogo is overthere... Just get cracking on it. After all they say that if you build they will come.

    5: Well i agree to a ceartin point, but them again i now have a disposable income and i spend it the way i want... And looking at the price of a pub-nigh or a visit to the cinema... .. . *shudders* Most RMT schemes look pretty good.

    6: As an old UO player again i say... thanks but no thanks... Nothing like working for houers clearing a place only to have some gank squad swipe in and WTFPwn you and kill the big bad... But i agree that it could be more done to the instance system to make it a bit more random.

    7: Very few games have companions, only GW1 and DDO comes to mind (are prolly more though) and DDO relys very much on class skills and GW1 was deigned with a more casual idea in mind.

    8: Huh...? Eh...? Pass them shrooms man. no MMO i played EVER gave you anything but crap scraps from the start. (Apart form Eve... but otoh i got a scrap ship instead)

     

    So yeah... I think you are a dying breed and i think you should man up and try to make your own game.. all the tools you need are out there and with the number of "game design" schools out there closing in on 2 per gamer finding people to work for you shoudl not be that much of a problem.

     

    Be a doer and not a don't:er

  • ShadanwolfShadanwolf Posts: 2,114Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by xDayx

    I wanted to see if there is anyone out there that carries my beliefs about how I wish MMO's were vs how they are today. Here are my opinions.

     

    1) The AAA Themeparks of today carry no risk. You die and you respawn with all your inventory, over, and over, again.

    2) Crafting systems should be deep. I dont want a system of having mats in your bag and hit 'create'. I want to mine metal, crush/wash the rocks. Put it in a furnace with a catalyst. etc. And maybe if I dont get killed during the process I will make my set of armor or whatnot.

    3) I feel graphics of todays most popular MMO's are cartoony. I love realism, and hate flash and over-coloring, and overexaggeration of weapons, shoulderpads, etc.

    4) I get frusterated by MMO developers who continue pushing out the same kind of product with a new gimmick here and there. Because I know that if they just put the PC focus-group crap aside and focused on making a detailed sandbox with all the proper tools that it would be truly epic.

    5) RMT's ruin the competiveness in the world, even if its just looking cool because that can be a competition in itself.

    6) Instances are retarded. Just open them up and allow other players to attack you in the dungeon you are in. Also dont make a beginning and end to the dungeon- there doesnt need to be that 100% of the time(think EQ1's Guk or even Blackrock Mtn)

    7) Companions ruin the challenge. Not every class or skill build doesnt have to be able to solo as well as the other.

    8) Players create a level 1 and they are geared already---rediculous. I want underwear or nothing on and a stick. I guess its time to gather materials so I can craft some pants and gather food or else I will go hungry or starve.

    ---ETC (Could carry this list on and on, and on)

     

    Anyone out there like me? Are we slowing shrinking in number?

    PS- A little background on me is I started with EQ1 in 99 and have played many themeparks and sandboxes and the only games that seem challenging and fun because of fantasy setting to me now is Mortal Online and Darkfall.

     

     

     

    I agree with every point in your post.For me that means not playing ANY mmog  at this time.

  • RobsolfRobsolf Grand Rapids, MIPosts: 4,247Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Icewhite

    Originally posted by Kyleran


    Originally posted by Sythion


    Originally posted by Axehilt

    There is a market for you and you deserve to have games that cater to yoru wishes, but you are not who gets to determine where this genre goes.

    The end.

    The cries of the disenfranchised not withstanding, the factual observation "that train left the station ten or fifteen years ago" should be sufficient explanation.

    If you're still tilting at windmills, N years later, perhaps you enjoy the tilting just a little too much.

    Q: What happens to teen rebels/non-conformists when they're forced to re-join society and become "the Man"?

    Yep, the "Ax/Syth/Kyl/you" thread said everything that needs to be said.  Until someone waves a magic wand and makes those old features appealing to the masses, your best bet is to find the game closest to what you like, and live with it; or move on.

    Anybody remember Motor City Online?  You could customize your car to insane level.  The engine itself had several parts, and each part wasn't just some "good/better/best" system; you had to know what parts complemented others.

    For example:  Do you know what an Edelbrock Tunnel Ram intake manifold is?  What it does and what benefits it provides?  Neither does about 99% of the population.  In other words, MCO was almost deliberately limiting their potential subscriber base to 1% of the population.

    It's really an extreme (but real) metaphor for what alot of those old games were, and why they either no longer exist or have comparably tiny player bases, today.  I loved MCO, but I have no doubts as to why it failed, and despite the build complexity being one of the things I liked best about it, I know better than to think someone will bring back a design philosophy that costs a game subs. 

  • VocadiVocadi SH, MIPosts: 205Member

    I agree that there is now a definite seperation between what older online gamers grew up with and what the new to MMO kids want.  I am speaking for myself when I refer to old.  I started out in the now geriatric gaming age with M59/EQ/DAOC. I became used to the idea that spending obscene amounts of time and working hard for something created acheivements and results.

    But that was the old school way. No one wants to raid for a full 24-48 hours, trading off healers so you could shower and eat a meal.  No one enjoys the sweat inducing fear of creeping along zone lines in order to avoid mob aggro and save you an hour long corpse run.

    We live in a society where instant gratification is key. Save time, save money. Rush, rush rush. So why should'nt games pander to this?  This is what I see when I look at the progression from games of old to now. A streamline gaming effect where the less time it takes to get from point A to point B results in a definite increase in subscribers.  You only need to look at the rush to level 80 when Wrath of the Lich King was released.  Content be damned.

    I definitely see the evolution of online gaming. But that doesn't mean I still dont believe in the possibility of a balance between old school hardcore and current day rush, rush easy mode.  I still have faith that it can happen, developers need only to dig back into our MMO roots to build a framework that can work for future content. 

     

     

    image
  • SythionSythion Salem, ORPosts: 422Member

    Originally posted by Vocadi

    I definitely see the evolution of online gaming. But that doesn't mean I still dont believe in the possibility of a balance between old school hardcore and current day rush, rush easy mode.  I still have faith that it can happen, developers need only to dig back into our MMO roots to build a framework that can work for future content. 

    Fair enough, but developers also need to look at the past with a discerning eye. There might be some game design gems in the rough, but there was a lot of... well... rough. For instance, I strongly disagree that taking more time to get from A to B is a good design choice unless there's actually an adventerous journey to be had there.

    image
  • ScrogdogScrogdog Woburn, MAPosts: 380Member

    Originally posted by Shadanwolf

    I agree with every point in your post.For me that means not playing ANY mmog  at this time.

     

    Yeah, me too.

     

    But I still come here out of hope. :)

     

    It's kind of interesting how this market has gone over the years.  Sure, I'm willing to admit that I'm no longer the target audience.

     

    This is a limitation of the video game market; the inability to address a wide range of tastes.

     

    It would be like the music industry offering ONLY Justin Bieber and then Beiber fans telling the rest of us that the world of music has passed us by.

  • AusareAusare adamstown, MDPosts: 850Member

    I think you feel like the minority because you are in the minority.

  • SythionSythion Salem, ORPosts: 422Member

    Originally posted by Scrogdog

     

    It would be like the music industry offering ONLY Justin Bieber and then Beiber fans telling the rest of us that the world of music has passed us by.

    Music changes too. I remember my father telling me about how much better the music was in the 60's and 70's, and I was like "Whatever, Smashing Pumpkins will be great forever!"

    image
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