I can't wait to try this out. I'm reserving judgement until I actually play for a few weeks, but the paradigm shift suggested by this game's design is very exciting for me. Most of the people that seem to be against the changes sound like they just don't like the idea of things being different or being more focused on skill and practice. In my opinion, that will just preclude or deter those type of min/max brain dead raiders from coming into the GW2 community.
I know I am going to be taking a lot of dirt naps while I figure this game out.
Totally cool with that.
I wonder though, will this combat experience (if as good as they say) completely ruin my ability to play other MMOs that use the Trinity?
TOR, for all it's fault, changed the way I look at traditional quests. After playing TOR I cannot stand wall-of-text questing. It's either full VO or just get rid of the traditional quests like GW2 is doing (for the most part anyway.)
I dont think so. Just like I can appreciate both action RPGs, turn based RPGs and hotbar MMOs at the moment.
It leads to some nice improvements, like not requiring specific classes for content (like EQ always needing a bard, enchanter, shaman and cleric or druid for anything difficult) and PvP which doesnt rely on pocket healers. But I think it is still possible to enjoy and appreciate holy trinity games in a post-GW2 world.
The encounters are just different. There are things that trinity games can do that GW2 cannot, and vice versa.
If a game allows your character to select between light, medium or heavy armour then isn't that a new type of holy trinity. It's not as if ArenaNet have abolished the holy trinity they just got rid of dedicated healers and gave its players another trinity.
One....Light armour
Two.....medium armour
Three...heavy armour
now David 1 + 1 + 1 equals three.
What is the dictionary definition of trinity well, David, a group of three things is a simple one.
So, yet another MMORPG aritcle that fails on definition. GW2 does indeed have a trinity in its gameplay.
Props to them for trying something different, but from experience with MMOers for the past decade I think combat is going to feel less like THISand more like THIS
I still don't think ridding of the formula is a good idea, sure, don't make it nessisary to have, but at least let people have the option to tank if they want and to heal if they want.
GW2 is yet another step forward in the evolution of MMO's. Soon the term GW2-clone will be born XD
I would agree it is an evolution, in fact I feel it really defines the term MMOARPG (Action) and you will likely see more titles that follow this same design.
I still believe you'll see titles going forward based on the trinity design as well, unless of course GW2 steamrolls the genre like WOW did so many years ago.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If a game allows your character to select between light, medium or heavy armour then isn't that a new type of holy trinity. It's not as if ArenaNet have abolished the holy trinity they just got rid of dedicated healers and gave its players another trinity.
One....Light armour
Two.....medium armour
Three...heavy armour
now David 1 + 1 + 1 equals three.
What is the dictionary definition of trinity well, David, a group of three things is a simple one.
So, yet another MMORPG aritcle that fails on definition. GW2 does indeed have a trinity in its gameplay.
Dear Illyssia,
have you ever tried playing class that uses speed and dodging as the main combat mechanic and wear 50 kg heavy plate armor? No, because it doesn't make any sense.
Thank goodness is right. The trinity has to be the most artificial thing every made in tactics. It was all just an easy button for game designers to control the script on fights. I still remember the first time I learned about it, my reaction was "your joking right?".
The trinity is a stupid and boring way to make a game. It promotes elitism and places to much emphasis on 2 roles while the 3rd gets a pass. I much prefer the way Asherons Call or GW2 does it, each person is responsible for their own safety and well being.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Why do people get all uppety over GW2 combat when it is litterally half as good as TERA's? GW2 has dodge but still forces tab targetting. It's like having aimbot on the whole time.
I'm worried that I'm going to feel the same way about GW2 as it sounds very clicky and very movement centric.
its called skills-friend, skills.
now dont get me wrong heals n tanking has its place- but not running the game-ats all.
This seems to be a common theme around here that only "twitch" = player skills. Maybe it just comes across this way but isn't actually what people are thinking, or I'm taking it wrong because I can't believe that people would honestly think this.
Why do people get all uppety over GW2 combat when it is litterally half as good as TERA's? GW2 has dodge but still forces tab targetting. It's like having aimbot on the whole time.
Because for all the things TERA does to make combat more active, it's still a holy-trinity based game with animation locking for a lot of/most abilities.
Pass and pass.
So I'd say TERA is literally 1/3rd to 1/4th as good as GW2's.
This is one of the few points so far I remain skeptical.
First, every attempt to make "jack of all trades" characters just was one more step away from real teamplay, towards "groups of soloers", where everyone plays alone, even in a group. People no longer need each other and depend on each others, than when you break down functions into class, as in the Trinity. Trinity meant, you do one thing, but you are really good at it, while usually jack of all trades meant, you do everything, but nothing really good.
Second, I like to play Healers as support characters in some MMOs, because it was more relaxed, laid back gameplay. And I liked that.
Finally, the movement actiony combat sounds... strenuous. I am not so sure in my advanced age of 41, I really have the patience and concentration to play lolcoptering for more than an hour before I am fatigued.
I hope I can find a class which needs LESS running and jumping though. ^^
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Why do people get all uppety over GW2 combat when it is litterally half as good as TERA's? GW2 has dodge but still forces tab targetting. It's like having aimbot on the whole time.
Because for all the things TERA does to make combat more active, it's still a holy-trinity based game with animation locking for a lot of/most abilities.
Pass and pass.
So I'd say TERA is literally 1/3rd to 1/4th as good as GW2's.
Higher levels/glyphs remove/reduce locking/slowness, but besides that the combat is more about timing and resources than spamming buttons. You don't need the trinity if you're good enough. Risk vs reward when you fight. All about your skill. I see you guys still need your hand held.
First, every attempt to make "jake of all trades" characters just was one more step away from real teamplay, towards "groups of soloers", where everyone plays alone, even in a group.
Never played with in an all-controllers and defenders group, I take it?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Why do people get all uppety over GW2 combat when it is litterally half as good as TERA's? GW2 has dodge but still forces tab targetting. It's like having aimbot on the whole time.
Because for all the things TERA does to make combat more active, it's still a holy-trinity based game with animation locking for a lot of/most abilities.
Pass and pass.
So I'd say TERA is literally 1/3rd to 1/4th as good as GW2's.
Higher levels/glyphs remove/reduce locking/slowness, but besides that the combat is more about timing and resources than spamming buttons. You don't need the trinity if you're good enough. Risk vs reward when you fight. All about your skill. I see you guys still need your hand held.
Yeah major difference is that if you are NOT good enough, you have the trinity to fall back on in TERA so that good tanks/healers can save your unskilled butt.
Sounds a lot more like hand holding to me
To say GW2 combat is not about skill is... laughable at best, grossly uninformed at worst.
Perhaps should re-read the OP and watch some more videos (especially conquest PvP ones)
Why, oh why , is there continual emphasis on the "we don't have a trinity" aspect of this game?
For those who are burying their heads in the sand.... THERE IS A TRINITY. You will still have healers, you will still have tanks, and you will still have Dps. They have changed the system to some extent but it is alive and well. What Guild Wars 2 trinity doesn't have : Whack-a-mole heals, Taunts. What it does have : Single Target Heals, Rescues, Group heals, AoE Heals, Regens- HoT's ( Which have always been stronger then flat heals in Guild Wars), Damage mitigation abilities, shields, reflects.
For the love of everything that is holy in Mmo's stop confusing the playerbase by stating Guild Wars 2 doesn't have a trinity. It absolutely does, its changed ... but its still present.
-- Yes I have pre-purchased , Yes I'm looking forward to the game. Yes I will running a pvp team as a Healer/support.
It doesn't really, there is that water-support rain for elementalist as far as I remember and some other spiffy stuff. And, well, the mobs don't stay on one target, they tend to jump from target to target, which renders the tank mostly useless.
Why, oh why , is there continual emphasis on the "we don't have a trinity" aspect of this game?
For those who are burying their heads in the sand.... THERE IS A TRINITY. You will still have healers, you will still have tanks, and you will still have Dps. They have changed the system so some extent but it is alive and well. What Guild Wars 2 trinity doesn't have : Whack-a-mole heals, Taunts. What it does have : Single Target Heals, Rescues, Group heals, AoE Heals, Regens- HoT's ( Which have always been stronger then flat heals in Guild Wars, Damage mitigation abilities, shields, reflects.
For the love of everything that is holy in Mmo's stop confusing the playerbase by stating Guild Wars 2 doesn't have a trinity. It absolutely does, its changed ... but its still present.
-- Yes I have pre-purchased , Yes I'm looking forward to the game. Yes I will running a pvp team as a Healer/support.
You can't really call it a Trinity system when every single profession and every single player playing those professions is going to not only be capable of doing each of those 3 roles but expected to fluidly switch between them based upon dynamic combat conditions and be self reliant.
Yeah major difference is that if you are NOT good enough, you have the trinity to fall back on in TERA so that good tanks/healers can save your unskilled butt.
Sounds a lot more like hand holding to me
To say GW2 combat is not about skill is... laughable at best, grossly uninformed at worst.
Perhaps should re-read the OP and watch some more videos (especially conquest PvP ones)
GW2 combat is still about hitting 1,2,3,dodge,1,2,3, run around while spamming 1,2,3, WOW you showed them!
I watched the PAX video and that's all he did. He turned toward the boss,hit tab, and then spammed his abilities as he was running around. Then got too close and was killed..... There is skill in dodging but none in aiming. Better than SWTOR and WOW but only half the combat is real.
Yeah major difference is that if you are NOT good enough, you have the trinity to fall back on in TERA so that good tanks/healers can save your unskilled butt.
Sounds a lot more like hand holding to me
To say GW2 combat is not about skill is... laughable at best, grossly uninformed at worst.
Perhaps should re-read the OP and watch some more videos (especially conquest PvP ones)
GW2 combat is still about hitting 1,2,3,dodge,1,2,3, run around while spamming 1,2,3, WOW you showed them!
I watched the PAX video and that's all he did. He turned toward the boss,hit tab, and then spammed his abilities as he was running around. Then got too close and was killed..... There is skill in dodging but none in aiming. Better than SWTOR and WOW but only half the combat is real.
There are no rotations and you don't spam anything other than the "basic" attack really, so you may have watched but you certainly didn't understand.
Every single skill (except for basic attack) is situational and the person who blows all their skills up front is going to lose/die 99% of the time.
It's all about cooldown management and timing.
A huge part of the game also is choosing what skills you even have on your bar in the first place as you only get access to 10 at a time. That's it.
It's a system of opportunity cost. In order to have X you can't also have Y at the same time, etc.
So a lot of the skill is in build making before combat even starts.
It doesn't really, there is that water-support rain for elementalist as far as I remember and some other spiffy stuff. And, well, the mobs don't stay on one target, they tend to jump from target to target, which renders the tank mostly useless.
Engineer Skills :
Utility - Healing Turret, Applies regenration to nearby allies. Reviving Burst : Overcharges your turret providing increased healing and resurrecting nearby allies.
Utility - Med Kit : Drops Banadges which provide a little healing, Antidote - Effects remover.
Weapon Kits : Elixer Gun : Elixer Spray - Poisons enemies, removes conditions from allies. Super Elixer : Creates a healing area as well as heals allies on impact. Utility - Healing Mist -- Add a regeneration effect to your allies.
Ult : Supply Drop
Elementalist Skills :
Water Blast : Small Heal - Spamable.
Geyser : Aoe heal
Healing Rain : Regen and condition Remover
Cone of Cold : Cone heal/damage
Cleansing Wave : Heal and Condition remover
Water Trident : Heal / Damage
----
Granted not one character will have access to all of these abilities at once, But there is still a significant enough amount of heals to support a party member loading as a Healer/Support.
Why, oh why , is there continual emphasis on the "we don't have a trinity" aspect of this game?
For those who are burying their heads in the sand.... THERE IS A TRINITY. You will still have healers, you will still have tanks, and you will still have Dps. They have changed the system so some extent but it is alive and well. What Guild Wars 2 trinity doesn't have : Whack-a-mole heals, Taunts. What it does have : Single Target Heals, Rescues, Group heals, AoE Heals, Regens- HoT's ( Which have always been stronger then flat heals in Guild Wars, Damage mitigation abilities, shields, reflects.
For the love of everything that is holy in Mmo's stop confusing the playerbase by stating Guild Wars 2 doesn't have a trinity. It absolutely does, its changed ... but its still present.
-- Yes I have pre-purchased , Yes I'm looking forward to the game. Yes I will running a pvp team as a Healer/support.
You can't really call it a Trinity system when every single profession and every single player playing those professions is going to not only be capable of doing each of those 3 roles but expected to fluidly switch between them based upon dynamic combat conditions and be self reliant.
I think you can, I think the trinity system as its core is having someone in those positions. If you have someone healing damage, someone tanking damage and someone doing the damage the trinity is fullfilled. It really doesn't matter how many people can do those roles, how unique the system is to fullfil those roles, or that there isn't whack-a-mole heals or taunts ... its still a Trinity.
The only reason people are raving about the statement " We don't have a Trinity" is because its giving them this unrealistic perspective that competitive groups won't need someone fullfilling the standard roles. Competitive teams will absolutely always have someone filling the Tank and Healer roles, theres just no way around it with the current skills in the game. The hype is setting alot of people up for a fall when the game goes live, they are going to run into content where they absolutely need a few heals and condition removers and/or someone to mitigate significant burst. If they would simply state that they are attempting to change up the typical trinity, to make it more flexible I would be on board with the rest of the team. Instead they are implying the Trinity doesn't exsist at all .... people will be upset when they learn it does.
its a holy hybrid game. Everyone can heal a little, tank a little, and do damage. You can then choose traits to boost the heals, the tanking. But it never comes to the level of the dedicated healers in other games.
Comments
I can't wait to try this out. I'm reserving judgement until I actually play for a few weeks, but the paradigm shift suggested by this game's design is very exciting for me. Most of the people that seem to be against the changes sound like they just don't like the idea of things being different or being more focused on skill and practice. In my opinion, that will just preclude or deter those type of min/max brain dead raiders from coming into the GW2 community.
I dont think so. Just like I can appreciate both action RPGs, turn based RPGs and hotbar MMOs at the moment.
It leads to some nice improvements, like not requiring specific classes for content (like EQ always needing a bard, enchanter, shaman and cleric or druid for anything difficult) and PvP which doesnt rely on pocket healers. But I think it is still possible to enjoy and appreciate holy trinity games in a post-GW2 world.
The encounters are just different. There are things that trinity games can do that GW2 cannot, and vice versa.
Dear David North.
If a game allows your character to select between light, medium or heavy armour then isn't that a new type of holy trinity. It's not as if ArenaNet have abolished the holy trinity they just got rid of dedicated healers and gave its players another trinity.
One....Light armour
Two.....medium armour
Three...heavy armour
now David 1 + 1 + 1 equals three.
What is the dictionary definition of trinity well, David, a group of three things is a simple one.
So, yet another MMORPG aritcle that fails on definition. GW2 does indeed have a trinity in its gameplay.
More like
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cFucXYlw94
I still don't think ridding of the formula is a good idea, sure, don't make it nessisary to have, but at least let people have the option to tank if they want and to heal if they want.
I would agree it is an evolution, in fact I feel it really defines the term MMOARPG (Action) and you will likely see more titles that follow this same design.
I still believe you'll see titles going forward based on the trinity design as well, unless of course GW2 steamrolls the genre like WOW did so many years ago.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Can't blame the healer or tank anymore in a wipe.
Dear Illyssia,
have you ever tried playing class that uses speed and dodging as the main combat mechanic and wear 50 kg heavy plate armor? No, because it doesn't make any sense.
Guild Wars 2 Youtube Croatian Maniacs
My Guild Wars titles
The trinity is a stupid and boring way to make a game. It promotes elitism and places to much emphasis on 2 roles while the 3rd gets a pass. I much prefer the way Asherons Call or GW2 does it, each person is responsible for their own safety and well being.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Why do people get all uppety over GW2 combat when it is litterally half as good as TERA's? GW2 has dodge but still forces tab targetting. It's like having aimbot on the whole time.
This seems to be a common theme around here that only "twitch" = player skills. Maybe it just comes across this way but isn't actually what people are thinking, or I'm taking it wrong because I can't believe that people would honestly think this.
Because for all the things TERA does to make combat more active, it's still a holy-trinity based game with animation locking for a lot of/most abilities.
Pass and pass.
So I'd say TERA is literally 1/3rd to 1/4th as good as GW2's.
This is one of the few points so far I remain skeptical.
First, every attempt to make "jack of all trades" characters just was one more step away from real teamplay, towards "groups of soloers", where everyone plays alone, even in a group. People no longer need each other and depend on each others, than when you break down functions into class, as in the Trinity. Trinity meant, you do one thing, but you are really good at it, while usually jack of all trades meant, you do everything, but nothing really good.
Second, I like to play Healers as support characters in some MMOs, because it was more relaxed, laid back gameplay. And I liked that.
Finally, the movement actiony combat sounds... strenuous. I am not so sure in my advanced age of 41, I really have the patience and concentration to play lolcoptering for more than an hour before I am fatigued.
I hope I can find a class which needs LESS running and jumping though. ^^
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Higher levels/glyphs remove/reduce locking/slowness, but besides that the combat is more about timing and resources than spamming buttons. You don't need the trinity if you're good enough. Risk vs reward when you fight. All about your skill. I see you guys still need your hand held.
Never played with in an all-controllers and defenders group, I take it?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Yeah major difference is that if you are NOT good enough, you have the trinity to fall back on in TERA so that good tanks/healers can save your unskilled butt.
Sounds a lot more like hand holding to me
To say GW2 combat is not about skill is... laughable at best, grossly uninformed at worst.
Perhaps should re-read the OP and watch some more videos (especially conquest PvP ones)
Really?
REALLY?
Why, oh why , is there continual emphasis on the "we don't have a trinity" aspect of this game?
For those who are burying their heads in the sand.... THERE IS A TRINITY. You will still have healers, you will still have tanks, and you will still have Dps. They have changed the system to some extent but it is alive and well. What Guild Wars 2 trinity doesn't have : Whack-a-mole heals, Taunts. What it does have : Single Target Heals, Rescues, Group heals, AoE Heals, Regens- HoT's ( Which have always been stronger then flat heals in Guild Wars), Damage mitigation abilities, shields, reflects.
For the love of everything that is holy in Mmo's stop confusing the playerbase by stating Guild Wars 2 doesn't have a trinity. It absolutely does, its changed ... but its still present.
-- Yes I have pre-purchased , Yes I'm looking forward to the game. Yes I will running a pvp team as a Healer/support.
It doesn't really, there is that water-support rain for elementalist as far as I remember and some other spiffy stuff. And, well, the mobs don't stay on one target, they tend to jump from target to target, which renders the tank mostly useless.
lmao at people complaining that the game sounds too skill based
god forbid that the game actually tries to engage players, as opposed to turning your brain off when you mindlessly grind
You can't really call it a Trinity system when every single profession and every single player playing those professions is going to not only be capable of doing each of those 3 roles but expected to fluidly switch between them based upon dynamic combat conditions and be self reliant.
GW2 combat is still about hitting 1,2,3,dodge,1,2,3, run around while spamming 1,2,3, WOW you showed them!
I watched the PAX video and that's all he did. He turned toward the boss,hit tab, and then spammed his abilities as he was running around. Then got too close and was killed..... There is skill in dodging but none in aiming. Better than SWTOR and WOW but only half the combat is real.
There are no rotations and you don't spam anything other than the "basic" attack really, so you may have watched but you certainly didn't understand.
Every single skill (except for basic attack) is situational and the person who blows all their skills up front is going to lose/die 99% of the time.
It's all about cooldown management and timing.
A huge part of the game also is choosing what skills you even have on your bar in the first place as you only get access to 10 at a time. That's it.
It's a system of opportunity cost. In order to have X you can't also have Y at the same time, etc.
So a lot of the skill is in build making before combat even starts.
Engineer Skills :
Utility - Healing Turret, Applies regenration to nearby allies. Reviving Burst : Overcharges your turret providing increased healing and resurrecting nearby allies.
Utility - Med Kit : Drops Banadges which provide a little healing, Antidote - Effects remover.
Weapon Kits : Elixer Gun : Elixer Spray - Poisons enemies, removes conditions from allies. Super Elixer : Creates a healing area as well as heals allies on impact. Utility - Healing Mist -- Add a regeneration effect to your allies.
Ult : Supply Drop
Elementalist Skills :
Water Blast : Small Heal - Spamable.
Geyser : Aoe heal
Healing Rain : Regen and condition Remover
Cone of Cold : Cone heal/damage
Cleansing Wave : Heal and Condition remover
Water Trident : Heal / Damage
----
Granted not one character will have access to all of these abilities at once, But there is still a significant enough amount of heals to support a party member loading as a Healer/Support.
I think you can, I think the trinity system as its core is having someone in those positions. If you have someone healing damage, someone tanking damage and someone doing the damage the trinity is fullfilled. It really doesn't matter how many people can do those roles, how unique the system is to fullfil those roles, or that there isn't whack-a-mole heals or taunts ... its still a Trinity.
The only reason people are raving about the statement " We don't have a Trinity" is because its giving them this unrealistic perspective that competitive groups won't need someone fullfilling the standard roles. Competitive teams will absolutely always have someone filling the Tank and Healer roles, theres just no way around it with the current skills in the game. The hype is setting alot of people up for a fall when the game goes live, they are going to run into content where they absolutely need a few heals and condition removers and/or someone to mitigate significant burst. If they would simply state that they are attempting to change up the typical trinity, to make it more flexible I would be on board with the rest of the team. Instead they are implying the Trinity doesn't exsist at all .... people will be upset when they learn it does.
its a holy hybrid game. Everyone can heal a little, tank a little, and do damage. You can then choose traits to boost the heals, the tanking. But it never comes to the level of the dedicated healers in other games.