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Is the MMO genre being blended into others, like what happened to RPGs?

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by Cuathon

    Originally posted by nariusseldon


    Originally posted by Cuathon



    We have absolutely no idea how an AAA PvE focused sandbox would fare because WoW took over the world before one had time to be made.

     

    No. But are you willing to bet $50M to find out the answer?

    If I had hundreds of millions of dollars I would bet $25mil to try out a possibly lucrative idea. However I don't. I am willing to bet my whole life though, however much that is worth, and am doing so right now.

    Good for you. At least you put your time where your mouth is, which is better than 99.9% of the ranting people here.

    Personally, i won't spend that much of my life for entertainment but i suppose it is a larger part of your life than mine. Good luck!

  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Cuathon


    Originally posted by nariusseldon


    Originally posted by Cuathon



    We have absolutely no idea how an AAA PvE focused sandbox would fare because WoW took over the world before one had time to be made.

     

    No. But are you willing to bet $50M to find out the answer?

    If I had hundreds of millions of dollars I would bet $25mil to try out a possibly lucrative idea. However I don't. I am willing to bet my whole life though, however much that is worth, and am doing so right now.

    Good for you. At least you put your time where your mouth is, which is better than 99.9% of the ranting people here.

    Personally, i won't spend that much of my life for entertainment but i suppose it is a larger part of your life than mine. Good luck!

    Making an VWRPG IS entertainment. In a more abstract sense making an MMORPG fulfills all the desires fulfilled by playing an already made VWRPG. Its challenging intellectually, your actions matter, the game is persistent. What you do is permanent, unless your computer gets erased :) You work with others, either through utilizing their libraries, getting help on forums and blogs, discussing ideas, getting people to provide art assets, connecting with people who are interested in the same kinds of games and activities as you and so forth.

    Making my own VWRPG is 100x more fun than playing cookie cutter themeparks and I can still play games like TSW GW EvE and other games that are pushing in the direction I want to go.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by Cuathon

     

    Making an VWRPG IS entertainment. In a more abstract sense making an MMORPG fulfills all the desires fulfilled by playing an already made VWRPG. Its challenging intellectually, your actions matter, the game is persistent. What you do is permanent, unless your computer gets erased :) You work with others, either through utilizing their libraries, getting help on forums and blogs, discussing ideas, getting people to provide art assets, connecting with people who are interested in the same kinds of games and activities as you and so forth.

    Making my own VWRPG is 100x more fun than playing cookie cutter themeparks and I can still play games like TSW GW EvE and other games that are pushing in the direction I want to go.

    Keep posting your progress.

    Even though mostly likely i won't play your game, it is entertaining to see how the development progress goes.

    Good luck!

  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member

    My progress is constantly stalled by restrictive licenses and poor integration and documentation of libraries. I can see why more people don't push forward to make multiplayer or massively multiplayer games. Holy crap is it a pain.

    I yearn for my days with PHP. It was flawlessly integrated with css, html, javascript, jquery, and mysql.

    C++ is a crazy all over the place shitfest.

    To be fair, it has much more powerful capabilities. But god is it a pain.

  • Goatgod76Goatgod76 Stow, OHPosts: 1,214Member

    I have been saying for several years now nearly everything others here have said. Nice to see others finally waking up to see the light as well. Just too bad it is a bit too late. You can thank WoW for it. Mainstreaming MMORPG's and showing other companies the ridiculous cash you can make off them opened the door for cookie cutter games by the truck loads with as simplistic gameplay as possible to milk the zombie masses fo every cent they can.

    This is also why monthly fees have gone away. Companies know impatient players these days will pay more via cash shops to get that advantage and shiney faster. It's competition to be #1 in everything...like console FPS games, etc that matters more now than community and helping one another and making friends...as the genre started as.

  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member

    Originally posted by Goatgod76

    I have been saying for several years now nearly everything others here have said. Nice to see others finally waking up to see the light as well. Just too bad it is a bit too late. You can thank WoW for it. Mainstreaming MMORPG's and showing other companies the ridiculous cash you can make off them opened the door for cookie cutter games by the truck loads with as simplistic gameplay as possible to milk the zombie masses fo every cent they can.

    This is also why monthly fees have gone away. Companies know impatient players these days will pay more via cash shops to get that advantage and shiney faster. It's competition to be #1 in everything...like console FPS games, etc that matters more now than community and helping one another and making friends...as the genre started as.

    Join the OWRPG/VWRPG movement then :) At least 15 people understand that we have a problem.

  • ClassicstarClassicstar rotjeknorPosts: 2,690Member


    Originally posted by rungard
    The next ten years will be a golden age for mmorpgs.
    The first thing that will happen is that real time combat aka rts will become the norm as the technology is starting to mature for that. I dont know who, but i anticipate one or two companies that develop game engines will stand above the rest, and this technology will open the gates for a myriad of high quality mmo's in all kinds of themes.
    This sounds crazy, but i believe mmo's will go back to first person. Along with this shift will come the players demand for higher quality gameplay and immersion.
    the reasons for this are simple. It takes years to mmomature, and there are 10m or so doing that right now in wow, but its getting old and as players mature, they will have no choice but to crave deeper, more innovative gameplay and they will want a personal quality to the game (that truely only first person can provide)
    all of this will come together with the invention of the oled tv, which will change how we see games forever with the introduction of the 180 degree curved screen,  which will further serve to bolster the immersion in first person.
    The next thing that will happen will be the integration of the themepark with the sandbox as standard for all mmo's. Some will say it cant be done, but it can and will be done, and all players will be happier for it.
    Rulesets will change as well. Anything that can be done ingame through the use of graphics will be done that way and youll see a huge reduction in the use of UI's and text, and a huge increase in the use of voice. You will be able to pick the voice you want and the computer will modulate it in the game (what else are you going to do with all those cores).
    xbox kinnect technology will undergo some sort of super upgrade transformation, and it will somehow become a new device for windows pc's allowing players to comfortably play mmorpgs from the comfort of their living room while giving them unlimited freedom of play.
    Its not the end of mmo's.. but rather the begining.
     
     
     

    Ithink on most cases your right but you will also get a devided community a huge chunk of players will go mainstream and dont real matter there controlled by those companys but also a group who want total freedom in games and how they being manage.

    XBOX-BLIZZARD-APPLE and so many more wanne controll you wanne know everthing about you and your needs i think many starting to realise they dont want that and companys will catered to them.

    I think Arenanet/Bethesda for example has made a step in that direction let the players deside what they want at least for a themepark and solo RPG thats a huge step towards freedom but still not realy a sandbox.

    But indeed in next 5 years alone alot will change.

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by Cuathon

    My progress is constantly stalled by restrictive licenses and poor integration and documentation of libraries. I can see why more people don't push forward to make multiplayer or massively multiplayer games. Holy crap is it a pain.

    I yearn for my days with PHP. It was flawlessly integrated with css, html, javascript, jquery, and mysql.

    C++ is a crazy all over the place shitfest.

    To be fair, it has much more powerful capabilities. But god is it a pain.

    That is the issue. Having ideas is not nearly close to enough to make a good software product. There are TONS of implementation and technical issues.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by Cuathon

     

    Join the OWRPG/VWRPG movement then :) At least 15 people understand that we have a problem.

    Problem as in YOU do not like the games being produced right now?

    It is certainly NOT a problem for me. I have fun games to play. In fact, Diablo 3 is going to be entertaining for quite a while before MoP comes out. And i am not even counting all the F2P games I want to, but have little time to really play.

  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Cuathon


     

    Join the OWRPG/VWRPG movement then :) At least 15 people understand that we have a problem.

    Problem as in YOU do not like the games being produced right now?

    It is certainly NOT a problem for me. I have fun games to play. In fact, Diablo 3 is going to be entertaining for quite a while before MoP comes out. And i am not even counting all the F2P games I want to, but have little time to really play.

    Well if you don't have a problem, clearly you do not have a problem. But I have a problem, and goatgod has a problem, and the 20 posters in my VWRPG thread have a problem, so we are working to resolve the problem.

  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Cuathon

    My progress is constantly stalled by restrictive licenses and poor integration and documentation of libraries. I can see why more people don't push forward to make multiplayer or massively multiplayer games. Holy crap is it a pain.

    I yearn for my days with PHP. It was flawlessly integrated with css, html, javascript, jquery, and mysql.

    C++ is a crazy all over the place shitfest.

    To be fair, it has much more powerful capabilities. But god is it a pain.

    That is the issue. Having ideas is not nearly close to enough to make a good software product. There are TONS of implementation and technical issues.

    I would argue that 99% of people don't even have good ideas. 99% of those that do do not have my programming or math skills. 99% that do get pissed of by annoying licenses and the way different APIs are so restrictive and unable to work with other ones. 99% of the people who don't get put off have no money, much like me.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by Cuathon

     

    I would argue that 99% of people don't even have good ideas. 99% of those that do do not have my programming or math skills. 99% that do get pissed of by annoying licenses and the way different APIs are so restrictive and unable to work with other ones. 99% of the people who don't get put off have no money, much like me.

    And I would argue that you put 3 reasonable smart people in a room for 3 hours, you have more good ideas to implement for the rest of your life.

    Ideas are a dime a dozen. Good implementation .. not so much.

  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Cuathon


     

    I would argue that 99% of people don't even have good ideas. 99% of those that do do not have my programming or math skills. 99% that do get pissed of by annoying licenses and the way different APIs are so restrictive and unable to work with other ones. 99% of the people who don't get put off have no money, much like me.

    And I would argue that you put 3 reasonable smart people in a room for 3 hours, you have more good ideas to implement for the rest of your life.

    Ideas are a dime a dozen. Good implementation .. not so much.

    Ideas are a dime a dozen. Even implementations are. Good ideas and good implementation are not, and even rarer is to see them together.

  • CalerxesCalerxes LondonPosts: 1,630Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Cuathon

    My progress is constantly stalled by restrictive licenses and poor integration and documentation of libraries. I can see why more people don't push forward to make multiplayer or massively multiplayer games. Holy crap is it a pain.

    I yearn for my days with PHP. It was flawlessly integrated with css, html, javascript, jquery, and mysql.

    C++ is a crazy all over the place shitfest.

    To be fair, it has much more powerful capabilities. But god is it a pain.

     

    Having an Idea is the easy part isn't it? Why not start a blog on the ups and downs on creating an MMO and maybe others might rethink their fantastic idea "that'll make millions" or "all this games needs is..." and they might understand the workings of a machine they so easily criticise.

    This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  • FrostWyrmFrostWyrm Tempe, AZPosts: 1,036Member

    An MMO3DF (Massively Multiplayer Online 3D Fighter) could be interesting.

    It would be like an MMORPG except you use a joystick and fighting-game moves and combos to fight instead of menues and hotbars!

    ...that was semi-sarcasm, but who knows, if done well it might actually work.

  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member

    Originally posted by Calerxes

    Originally posted by Cuathon

    My progress is constantly stalled by restrictive licenses and poor integration and documentation of libraries. I can see why more people don't push forward to make multiplayer or massively multiplayer games. Holy crap is it a pain.

    I yearn for my days with PHP. It was flawlessly integrated with css, html, javascript, jquery, and mysql.

    C++ is a crazy all over the place shitfest.

    To be fair, it has much more powerful capabilities. But god is it a pain.

     

    Having an Idea is the easy part isn't it? Why not start a blog on the ups and downs on creating an MMO and maybe others might rethink their fantastic idea "that'll make millions" or "all this games needs is..." and they might understand the workings of a machine they so easily criticise.

    You want me to write a blog on top of all the other work I have to do? You monster!!! At this rate i'll never finish! :P

    If I ever finish I will certainly write a lot about how it went and the problems i encountered.

    Although all the lazy idea people are on hero engine nowadays and so my decision to avoid a premade and thus limited engine and the experiences from that might not apply to many of them.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by Cuathon

     

    You want me to write a blog on top of all the other work I have to do? You monster!!! At this rate i'll never finish! :P

    If I ever finish I will certainly write a lot about how it went and the problems i encountered.

    Although all the lazy idea people are on hero engine nowadays and so my decision to avoid a premade and thus limited engine and the experiences from that might not apply to many of them.

    You will probably never finish anyway.

    Even if we don't talk about art assets, a typical MMO has multi-persons programming team that work years to get everythign done. That is on top of IT staff that maintain test servers and what-not. That is assuming there *is* a design to code.

    You are still doing "research" in many of the elements of your game. And you are one-man. Even if your game is much smaller in scale, and make use of clever algorithms, we are still talking about 10s of man years of work.

    How much time are you willing to spend on this endeavor?

  • SythionSythion Salem, ORPosts: 422Member

    Originally posted by FrostWyrm

    An MMO3DF (Massively Multiplayer Online 3D Fighter) could be interesting.

    It would be like an MMORPG except you use a joystick and fighting-game moves and combos to fight instead of menues and hotbars!

    ...that was semi-sarcasm, but who knows, if done well it might actually work.

    Vindictus. It's okay for awhile, but like most games that try to blend into an mmorpg, the abnegation mechanics ruin the core gameplay.

    image
  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,010Member Uncommon

    What MMORPG's originally were have "evolved" (so the enlightened tell me) into games that most people enjoy. (well, most being everyone but me I guess)

    I'm just a Bitter Vet ™ or so I'm told, who wears thick rose colored nostalgia glasses and that the better MMO's and the communties are simply figments of my aging imagination.

    At the rate things are going, I'm probably going to have to return to EVE and play that for the rest of my life, because it will likely be the last great virtual world simulator left.

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Cuathon


     

    You want me to write a blog on top of all the other work I have to do? You monster!!! At this rate i'll never finish! :P

    If I ever finish I will certainly write a lot about how it went and the problems i encountered.

    Although all the lazy idea people are on hero engine nowadays and so my decision to avoid a premade and thus limited engine and the experiences from that might not apply to many of them.

    You will probably never finish anyway.

    Even if we don't talk about art assets, a typical MMO has multi-persons programming team that work years to get everythign done. That is on top of IT staff that maintain test servers and what-not. That is assuming there *is* a design to code.

    You are still doing "research" in many of the elements of your game. And you are one-man. Even if your game is much smaller in scale, and make use of clever algorithms, we are still talking about 10s of man years of work.

    How much time are you willing to spend on this endeavor?



    Many major games entirely roll their own tools, which I am not. Also most themepark games spend most of their time on balancing and creating "content". I am letting math do that. I don't have to create my world piece by piece or worry about many other things.

    In fact many games exist which are the product of one person but they generally have few serves and low advertising budgets.

    I am currently working on the code for crafting and magic and such. The way I structure objects will have far reaching effects on how long it takes to make the game, how well it works, how much it aligns with my vision and so forth.

  • Beatnik59Beatnik59 Chicago, ILPosts: 2,238Member Uncommon

    I think that gamers have to change before the games change.

    Gamers have lost tolerance for things they don't like.

    1)  PKers need targets.  The problem is, the majority doesn't like to be targets.  So they lobbied hard against open world PvP, the developers listened, and now the gankers have no more new games.

    2)  Roleplayers need environments and tools to weave complex plots.  The problem is, the majority doesn't like complicated plots.  So they lobbied hard against wasting developer time of social aspects, the developers listened, and now the roleplayers have no more new games.

    3)  Crafters and world builders need decay, markets, regional niches, good crafting systems, and patience.  The problem is, the majority doesn't like decay, doesn't like to spend time in markets, likes to get everything instantly without having to travel, would rather get to the action, and have no patience for an economy.  The developers listened, and as a result, nobody designs games that encourage crafting and complex systems anymore, and now the crafters and world builders have no more new games.

    4)  The powergamers and powerguilds want big encounters.  The problem is, the majority isn't a part of a powerguild.  So they lobbied hard against powerguild content, the developers listened, and now the powergamers have no more new games.

    So what do we have left?  In an attempt to not displease everybody, the new games don't really satisfy anybody, at least not the people who like MMOs for the things MMOs do well (PK, immersive roleplay, complex systems, achievement).

    In the early days, you had to be a tolerant player, subjecting yourself to things you didn't particularly like in order to get the good stuff you liked.  But you were rewarded for this tolerance by getting the things you did like in a way no other game could match.  This was a genre that encouraged a diverse and cosmopolitan notion of fun, but when those who really didn't understand this genre came into the picture, this notion of fun got destroyed.

    The downfall started with what I call "the great playstyle flame wars" that were waged between 2003 and 2005.  The wars generally started with threads that looked like this:

    "It isn't right that I have to pay $15/mo to subject myself to (PK, roleplay foofoo, timesinks, decay, spawn camping, gated content, sticking a headset in my ear to get in a guild)."

    And the piling-ons, pseudo-intellectual arguments, pleas for pathos, trolling defenders, and various insults meeting or exceeding Godwin's Law were heard from the plains of Trammel, to the heart of Coronet, to Paragon City, to Queynos, to Kalimdor, and many more places without end.  And the community managers, producers, designers and VCs shook with horror at what was unleashed, vowing never again to make a game which subjected anyone to anything even the slightest bit inconvenient.

    They created games where players don't have to be tolerant of other playstyles, because they took out all the material that caters to different playstyles.  They created games where nobody ever has a reason to be offended at paying the publisher for things they don't like, but they did this by taking out or watering down all the material that caters to different playstyles.

    Who can blame them?  It's the only thing they could have done for players who refuse to be tolerant of another's fun.

    __________________________
    "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
    --Arcken

    "...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
    --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

    "It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
    --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by Beatnik59

    I think that gamers have to change before the games change.

    Gamers have lost tolerance for things they don't like.

    1)  PKers need targets.  The problem is, the majority doesn't like to be targets.  So they lobbied hard against open world PvP, the developers listened, and now the gankers have no more new games.

    2)  Roleplayers need environments and tools to weave complex plots.  The problem is, the majority doesn't like complicated plots.  So they lobbied hard against wasting developer time of social aspects, the developers listened, and now the roleplayers have no more new games.

    3)  Crafters and world builders need decay, markets, regional niches, good crafting systems, and patience.  The problem is, the majority doesn't like decay, doesn't like to spend time in markets, likes to get everything instantly without having to travel, would rather get to the action, and have no patience for an economy.  The developers listened, and as a result, nobody designs games that encourage crafting and complex systems anymore, and now the crafters and world builders have no more new games.

    4)  The powergamers and powerguilds want big encounters.  The problem is, the majority isn't a part of a powerguild.  So they lobbied hard against powerguild content, the developers listened, and now the powergamers have no more new games.

    So what do we have left?  In an attempt to not displease everybody, the new games don't really satisfy anybody, at least not the people who like MMOs for the things MMOs do well (PK, immersive roleplay, complex systems, achievement).

    In the early days, you had to be a tolerant player, subjecting yourself to things you didn't particularly like in order to get the good stuff you liked.  But you were rewarded for this tolerance by getting the things you did like in a way no other game could match.  This was a genre that encouraged a diverse and cosmopolitan notion of fun, but when those who really didn't understand this genre came into the picture, this notion of fun got destroyed.

    The downfall started with what I call "the great playstyle flame wars" that were waged between 2003 and 2005.  The wars generally started with threads that looked like this:

    "It isn't right that I have to pay $15/mo to subject myself to (PK, roleplay foofoo, timesinks, decay, spawn camping, gated content, sticking a headset in my ear to get in a guild)."

    And the piling-ons, pseudo-intellectual arguments, pleas for pathos, trolling defenders, and various insults meeting or exceeding Godwin's Law were heard from the plains of Trammel, to the heart of Coronet, to Paragon City, to Queynos, to Kalimdor, and many more places without end.  And the community managers, producers, designers and VCs shook with horror at what was unleashed, vowing never again to make a game which subjected anyone to anything even the slightest bit inconvenient.

    They created games where players don't have to be tolerant of other playstyles, because they took out all the material that caters to different playstyles.  They created games where nobody ever has a reason to be offended at paying the publisher for things they don't like, but they did this by taking out or watering down all the material that caters to different playstyles.

    Who can blame them?  It's the only thing they could have done for players who refuse to be tolerant of another's fun.

    Apt observations.

    From a player's point of view, there is really no reason to tolerate anything in an entertainment product.

    If being a target is no fun for me, damn right I am not going to play a game to be one. And if there is a game that does not require me to commit my life to it before i can have fun, damn right i am going to choose it over another that requires me hours and hours of camping.

    I have no problem some dev creating games i do not enjoy BUT damn right i will never play/pay for games i don't find fun. The good news is there are plenty of GAMES, mmo or not, that i like. Diablo 3 will be an awesmoe gaming experience that will last at least a few months.

  • Beatnik59Beatnik59 Chicago, ILPosts: 2,238Member Uncommon

     

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

     

    Apt observations.

    From a player's point of view, there is really no reason to tolerate anything in an entertainment product.

    If being a target is no fun for me, damn right I am not going to play a game to be one. And if there is a game that does not require me to commit my life to it before i can have fun, damn right i am going to choose it over another that requires me hours and hours of camping.

    I have no problem some dev creating games i do not enjoy BUT damn right i will never play/pay for games i don't find fun. The good news is there are plenty of GAMES, mmo or not, that i like. Diablo 3 will be an awesmoe gaming experience that will last at least a few months.

    Fair point, and this is the reason why I expect this genre is going to move ever further away from the "massive multiplayer" aspect of MMOs.  Diablo 3 is a perfect example of games that have an "MMO-like" flavor, without being an MMO.

    The only direction publishers can go to make the games more accessable at this point is to take out or water down all the remaining MMO elements: the persistant world, the guilds, the multiple users: make it a chatroom/lobby and put all the content in our own user created instances.  Because what Satre said is true: "Hell is other people," and the only way we can take away the remaining "Hell" is to take away the "other people": the ones we don't know, the ones we don't care to know, and the ones we don't like.

    That way, nobody has to tolerate anything.

    Because I agree that, as an entertainment product, nobody has to tolerate anything.  Unfortunately, however, we do need tolerance when playing with other people, because all people are different and they all have slightly different conceptions of what fun is.  What one person finds fun is not something another person finds fun.

    That's something we forgot in the "great playstyle flame wars" in the latter half of the 2000s.  We kept on seeing things from our own points of view, but we never considered that the things we wanted to take away were fun for somebody, somewhere.

    That's why the PKers fought like crazy against Trammel.  They were the easiest targets, the PKers, but they weren't the last ones.

    The roleplayers were the next to go.  Games like EQ II had less roleplay tools, SWG refused to crack down on AFK entertaining, bots were rampant, and the encounters got so fast paced that everyone was forced to put a headset in their ears.

    Then the world builders and crafters were the next to go, with the insta-travel, the lack of housing or politics, and the loot-based economies.  It's what the combat crowd majority wanted, and they got their way.

    But even the twinks and powergamers were not immune, as the games started to scale back their encounters for the best loot, and started to cater to the casual player with a fat credit card limit and little sense with the RMT stuff.

    And so, all we are left with in our games is a kind of cookie-cutter, boring virtual "tourist" type who has no personality, no passion, no sense of fun, and is rather uninteresting to game with for any extended length.

    All the interesting people (the gankers, the roleplayers, the world builders, the community folks, the twinks, and the über) have been gone for half a decade, and for good reason.  They have no place to "live" anymore.  Their homes have been taken away and turned into tourist traps.

    __________________________
    "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
    --Arcken

    "...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
    --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

    "It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
    --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by Beatnik59

    Fair point, and this is the reason why I expect this genre is going to move ever further away from the "massive multiplayer" aspect of MMOs.  Diablo 3 is a perfect example of games that have an "MMO-like" flavor, without being an MMO.

    The only direction publishers can go to make the games more accessable at this point is to take out or water down all the remaining MMO elements: the persistant world, the guilds, the multiple users: make it a chatroom/lobby and put all the content in our own user created instances.  Because what Satre said is true: "Hell is other people," and the only way we can take away the remaining "Hell" is to take away the "other people": the ones we don't know, the ones we don't care to know, and the ones we don't like.

    That way, nobody has to tolerate anything.

    Because I agree that, as an entertainment product, nobody has to tolerate anything.  Unfortunately, however, we do need tolerance when playing with other people, because all people are different and they all have slightly different conceptions of what fun is.  What one person finds fun is not something another person finds fun.

     

    Couple of points.

    I think in terms of dealing players interaction, controlled lobby matching is the way to go, in terms of assessibiliy. More lobbies, more instances, more battlegrounds. Diablo 3, and MMOs are certainly going down this direction. The issue is to make playing with others painless including a) no need to spend time to find group, b) no need to stay around for people you do not like, and c) less need to constrain our own behavior (like the new loot system in WOW take away the ability to ninja).

    However, i think it is DIFFERENT in terms of interaction with the enviroment. There is no need to take away the open world. Devs only need to add a choice to SKIP long travel time (like what Blizz did). In this case, people who like to explore and walk around in the world still can, but those who hated the incovenient do not have to tolerate it.

    More choices is good. The key is not to impose one's choice on another. The key is to control the interaction between players so that one does not have to tolerate much. Consensual pvp is the best example.

     

  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Beatnik59



    Fair point, and this is the reason why I expect this genre is going to move ever further away from the "massive multiplayer" aspect of MMOs.  Diablo 3 is a perfect example of games that have an "MMO-like" flavor, without being an MMO.

    The only direction publishers can go to make the games more accessable at this point is to take out or water down all the remaining MMO elements: the persistant world, the guilds, the multiple users: make it a chatroom/lobby and put all the content in our own user created instances.  Because what Satre said is true: "Hell is other people," and the only way we can take away the remaining "Hell" is to take away the "other people": the ones we don't know, the ones we don't care to know, and the ones we don't like.

    That way, nobody has to tolerate anything.

    Because I agree that, as an entertainment product, nobody has to tolerate anything.  Unfortunately, however, we do need tolerance when playing with other people, because all people are different and they all have slightly different conceptions of what fun is.  What one person finds fun is not something another person finds fun.

     

    Couple of points.

    I think in terms of dealing players interaction, controlled lobby matching is the way to go, in terms of assessibiliy. More lobbies, more instances, more battlegrounds. Diablo 3, and MMOs are certainly going down this direction. The issue is to make playing with others painless including a) no need to spend time to find group, b) no need to stay around for people you do not like, and c) less need to constrain our own behavior (like the new loot system in WOW take away the ability to ninja).

    However, i think it is DIFFERENT in terms of interaction with the enviroment. There is no need to take away the open world. Devs only need to add a choice to SKIP long travel time (like what Blizz did). In this case, people who like to explore and walk around in the world still can, but those who hated the incovenient do not have to tolerate it.

    More choices is good. The key is not to impose one's choice on another. The key is to control the interaction between players so that one does not have to tolerate much. Consensual pvp is the best example.

     



    That doesn't work Narius. You cannot have fast travel while maintaining the experience of a world. Why would the devs spend money on the world when the majority only cares about the instances? You cannot give disparate groups optimal gameplay in the same game.

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