Doesn't matter who you pay, company or other players, if the cost is RL cash then it's pay to win. I won't stop crying about it, I won't deal with it, if enough people grow spines it may change, it's more manly to be able to deal with dissenting voices than plead for them to stop.
By that standard almost every MMO you can think of is Pay to Win. Just because Blizzard wants to give a way in which you can do it IN GAME doesn't change the fact that every MMO out there you can do it out of game. I doubt I will ever use the in game rl transactions...but I can see why they are doing what they are doing. Truth be told, you really can't do anything about it. Times change just like everything else. You have to accept the fact that RL auctions will be apart of the gaming future (and past) and nothing you believe in or whatever will change that. People will complain about it until everyone just buckles down and accepts it for what it is.
Stop crying, deal with it, it isn't going to change. Man up will ya....
Doesn't matter who you pay, company or other players, if the cost is RL cash then it's pay to win. I won't stop crying about it, I won't deal with it, if enough people grow spines it may change, it's more manly to be able to deal with dissenting voices than plead for them to stop.
Good luck with that...
Also by your logic every game must be pay to win then, because I can't think of one game out there where you can't go on a website and buy gold, powerlevel, items (when available) you just choose to accept that because it is not as visible or in your face, well cool your ego unless your that one guy that has never done anything in their life that wasn't outside the lines.
Again, buying power is only the case when you are purchasing an item that has no other means of obtaining other than real cash.
Lastly, what you are missing is the vocal minority is split on the subject so even if you manage to gather all 1/2 of them and decide to march on Blizzard and protest, your cries will fall on deaf ears as the silent majority and the other half of the vocal minority either doesn't care or really wants this.
You can always move to Korea, or run for government from where ever you are from to stop it
Its gonna be nice to sit on my butt and make a few bucks here and there doing something i enjoy for once. This is win for everyone. Don't like it? Then dont use it. Its that simple.
Its gonna be nice to sit on my butt and make a few bucks here and there doing something i enjoy for once. This is win for everyone. Don't like it? Then dont use it. Its that simple.
This. I don't see why people are so mad about being able to buy items in it. People did it off the walls in Diablo 2, 24/7 buying and selling for real money. There will always be people who pay for power in games, legal or not, so why not benefit from them and make a few bucks off of it. It's still going to be the same item grind for the people who want it to be.
Its gonna be nice to sit on my butt and make a few bucks here and there doing something i enjoy for once. This is win for everyone. Don't like it? Then dont use it. Its that simple.
I love how people will sku definitions just to spin a topic in favor of their own opinion.
Pay to win is when the company themselves generates advantages through their own cash shop...
Items such as XP boosters, weapon boosters or just plain items of power are examples of pay to win items.
A RM auction house is player generated, meaning that someone has to find the item first... they are all in game for everyone to find and aquire, some people invest enormous amounts of time to get the item... some may find the item the first kill and just be really lucky... Some people may already have something better and choose to sell it.
Stop being such broke bitches, hell if you are reading these forums there is a chance that you are more of a dedicated player than 90% of the people who purchase the game and you will more than likely be one of the people putting in the time with opportunity to profit from the sale of an item.
If your fear is that the bots and farmers will "ruin" the game well they will be their own worst enemy, if they flood the market with items they lose value, you may be able to get a hard to find item relatively cheap, or you can always undercut them to bring the market down... eventually if it is not profitable for them (after buying the box, paying fees, and having to take the cash instantly upon sale) they will just go find some other game to invade.
If you feel that Blizzard is giving up and throwing their hands up in the air setting a bad precedent then take a look at the "war on drugs" the gaming industry doesn't stand a chance against the farmers out there because they have bigger guns and more manpower than the industry wants to invest to fight it.
You can gripe about this and say "the sky is falling" and "doom and gloom" are upon the industry but lets face it times they are a changing. I hope and pray every game company follows this trend, REALLY, for the simple reason is I can play a game and maybe put a little extra scratch in my pocket...
Stop crying, deal with it, it isn't going to change. Man up will ya....
Doesn't matter who you pay, company or other players, if the cost is RL cash then it's pay to win. I won't stop crying about it, I won't deal with it, if enough people grow spines it may change, it's more manly to be able to deal with dissenting voices than plead for them to stop.
This trend won't change. What the real issue is that how far is such a system acceptable? If you were to expand the term P2W then you could say that Gotham City Impostors (which offers DLC for 50% faster XP for unlocks) is a P2W game even though it's highly and purely a skill based FPS.
In D3 it should be called P2W-W. RMT in D3 improves the gaming experience for buyers and sellers and it doesn't affect anyone else. Nobody is losing due to D3 RMT. This is because D3 is designed to be a solo/small lobby game and if you actually join a public game you are aware that someone might be using a "storebrought" item. But this doesn't differ from D2 where people could still be using (against the rules bought items). The mentioned public games are CO-OP so you only benefit from playing with people who have spend money to improve their characters. So in the end it's a WIN-WIN-WIN system where the buyer/seller and the 3rd party (you playing with a heavy spender) benefits. Once the PvP is introduced in D3 I assume it could cause the game turning P2W but it's still capped at the best gear possible from finding within the game. There's no "external" buffing involved.
The whole shebang about GW2 cash shop system has only been an issue because these PvE buffs affect your WvWvW toons aswell. Meaning that people who pay more are winning more in PvP enviroment. That's a problem. In GW2 let's say you buy a 25% speed buff from the cash shop. You then face this enemy in WvWvW and notice he moves 25% faster because he paid and you didn't. This is stupid game breaking bad design and totally unacceptable.
Talking about P2W in PvE games is just silly, seriously.
I dont understand the hate for it, no you cant become rich and quit your day job for it, but it can help you pay a bill or two, buy groceries etc, point is its a nice incentive to allow plays to get cash while playing something fun as hell, and no its not a pay 2 win scheme and different from diablo 2 because people were doing this in diablo 2, just with ebay, diablojsp etc, this is just an official, secure and safe way to do it. And its not really a pay 2 win because what are the chances you are going to see multiple grandfathers and windforces for cheap, those weapons will probably sell for hundreds, if not thousands, which is not farfetched as some gamers will do crazy things for items.
I see nothing wrong with it, its just a more secure and safe way to buy and sell real life money thats been going on in almost every online game today.
There will be farmers with multiple bots running 24/7 that sell items on the RMAH. I dont think they can stop that. And doubt they want to stop it. More items sold = more profit for Blizzard.
It makes a difference if something is legal or not. More players(both sellers and buyers) will do it when its legal. Because a lot of players that dont want to buy from some illegal hacker-site will do it when its legal and offered by Blizzard. So it will get worse and much more common and accepted. So you could say it means Blizzard decided to give up trying to stop them and to join them instead. Its like if the police decided to stop trying to prevent some crimes and started to commit them themselves and do it better than the criminals. I guess some will recognize there is a moral problem. We would not accept this if it was other real life crimes. Because if criminals are doing bad things its terrible. But I know that the rules or the law and the authoritys are on my side. That they recognize it is wrong... When the state or the police or some authority we want to trust is doing it its much much worse. In that case the whole system or the law itself would be corrupted. If you are really hardcore no compromise anti real money trading this is the way it appears.
William J. Bennett is that you?
I also have trouble seeing anything massively "wrong" with this. I think Blizzard is fully realizing that they can't prevent the black market, so the only option they have is to legitimize it and at least profit and try to control it.
Sure there'll be people who claim it's pay 2 win, but that's like saying WoW is Pay 2 Win because you can buy gold from a farmer and get rare items off the auction house with that money.
Or are we actually splitting hairs here and deciding that if it's legitmized by the company it's "pay 2 win" and if there's a black market the game is occupying some moral high ground?
It has nothing to do with P2W as far as I'm concerned. The problem is that real money is flowing in and OUT of the game now because players have been incentivized to turn it into a business. When all the good gear is being sold for real money, it doesn't leave much for those players who want to enjoy the actual game part of it and not go into business. They won't be able to trade for good stuff within the game and instead will be left with either paying money or doing without, if they want some rare item.
At least while it wasn't officially permitted, people purchasing on the black market ran the risk of losing something if they tried it. They could have their credit card compromised, their account hacked or their identity stolen. That tended to keep people with more than two brain cells to rub together, away from third party farmers. Now, those same farming scum will be operating within the game with impunity because Blizzard has given them the green light. Now everyone is a potential customer for them, not just the morons, because the risk has disappeared. And who can't lose under these conditions? Blizzard. It's all profit for them, no matter who is doing the buying and selling. This was not done with the players' interests in mind, only their own.
Now if this scheme was being pulled off by some unknown developer in Korea, I wouldn't care one bit. But because it's Blizzard, there's a real threat that others will copy the model. I can easily forego playing D3, but it's going to suck if others start following in their footsteps. I do not want to see my games turned into business endeavours for players. If they want to earn real money, get a job. Games should remain just that -- games.
I dont understand the hate for it, no you cant become rich and quit your day job for it, but it can help you pay a bill or two, buy groceries etc, point is its a nice incentive to allow plays to get cash while playing something fun as hell, and no its not a pay 2 win scheme and different from diablo 2 because people were doing this in diablo 2, just with ebay, diablojsp etc, this is just an official, secure and safe way to do it. And its not really a pay 2 win because what are the chances you are going to see multiple grandfathers and windforces for cheap, those weapons will probably sell for hundreds, if not thousands, which is not farfetched as some gamers will do crazy things for items.
I see nothing wrong with it, its just a more secure and safe way to buy and sell real life money thats been going on in almost every online game today.
Maybe I am a purist, I just want to play games without the taint of RL buying power coming into the equation.
You and I seem to be a dying breed unfortunately.
We could be a dying breed, but more importantly we are the political-economic minority. There are more people out there willing to buy their way to an advantage (or having game design revolve around rmt) or are okay with that premise than there are those of us who would rather just game.
The bottom line is that we don't have the economic muscle to make the difference. The kind of gameplay we like is less profitable than the rmt model. We're never going to get back to game design model where you just play the game. It's not just MMOs, or mult-player lobby games like this. It's single player games. It's socially networked (Facebook) games. It's relentless and pervasive.
Definitely seems that way.
And you know what the real crazy thing is...money seriously has nothing to do with my issue. I wouldn't mind paying $80 for a game if that's what it took to get game-altering RMT out.
I just want a game to be about the game and only the game. I don't want it to have an ulterior motive of selling you in-game stuff.
And I'm not totally draconian about this concept either. I don't mind, and would even support, companies releasing (reasonably priced) new content made AFTER RELEASE as paid DLC. To me, this is just like a "micro-expansion" and I see no issue with it.
I just don't like buying game-altering goods like in game money, exp boosts, etc.
Its gonna be nice to sit on my butt and make a few bucks here and there doing something i enjoy for once. This is win for everyone. Don't like it? Then dont use it. Its that simple.
The stuff that you're selling for real cash would have been stuff that others would have been trading for in-game without this RMT model. Now that you and (I'm sure) most others can turn a buck on it, there's very little chance that anything worthwhile will be available for players who want no part of RMT. So they in fact have little choice in the matter. If they want some hard to get gear, they can play the lottery and hope for that rare drop (possibly waiting months without success), or they pony up real cash for it.
Sorry bud, that ain't no choice. You just don't see it because the situation currently caters to your preference. I mean, you have a choice too. You could always sell that ultra-rare drop for in-game gold instead of a decent wad of cash. What are the odds of that happening? Yeah, and that's what I think everyone else will be saying too. Hence, no trading for good gear unless you use real money.
1. This game is not an MMO, so please stop comparing it to such. PTW is so much more of an issue in a straight up normal MMORPG. This game is far more single-playerish to warrant a comparison. (Yes I know what site we are on)
2. Do you remember the D2 auction house? Yeah the text spamming crap. The RLAH and normal AH are both heads and shoulders above than what D2 offered. So saying that the RLAH will take away from the normal AH is still a mute arguement from my point of view considering ANY AH is an upgrade from an already amazing game (D2).
3. Pay to Win was a huge deal in D2. Having it a huge deal in D3 is actually not a big deal. I honestly can't remember a bigger "black market" market than what D2 had. There were so many farmer shops on the webz for this game it is truely stupid of Blizzard not to include a regulated, mandated RLAH.
4. Money is good for a game in whatever means they see fit. RLAH taxes, Guild Wars 2 Cash Shop, monthly payments...whatever. You don't get whatever you want for free in the real world nor in fake worlds. You need to accept that.
5. If someone wants to Pay to Win this game, let them. I hardly see any way it will actually affect YOU. This isn't some persistent world MMO with 1k people on it and you know everyone. You will not know 99.9999999999% of the population of this game. So if xXSephirothXx wants to pay for his shinies with RL money so be it.
personally I'm neutral to it but its not something to be lightly dismissed either
It's arguably even worse in other games, because you generally did not have to pay to essentially cheat in other games. Imagine if Konami charged you $0.99 every time you entered the 99 lives code in Contra?
The way I see it, the game is about finding gear and loot. If you just buy loot with real money you are essentially skipping the game. If you bought a game just so you could pay up in order to skip playing it, why did you even get it in the first place?
Secondly, I feel rich people have enough advantages IRL for them to have advantages in games also based on their wealth.
Thirdly, it's an established system within the game itself, so now rather than a select few hardcore individuals doing it, it's a generally accepted norm available to everyone, anywhere, with ease. This makes transactions far more widespread, tremendously amplifying the issue.
The upside to this is that I have other players potentially paying for the production of content Blizzard might add to the game.
I dont understand the hate for it, no you cant become rich and quit your day job for it, but it can help you pay a bill or two, buy groceries etc, point is its a nice incentive to allow plays to get cash while playing something fun as hell, and no its not a pay 2 win scheme and different from diablo 2 because people were doing this in diablo 2, just with ebay, diablojsp etc, this is just an official, secure and safe way to do it. And its not really a pay 2 win because what are the chances you are going to see multiple grandfathers and windforces for cheap, those weapons will probably sell for hundreds, if not thousands, which is not farfetched as some gamers will do crazy things for items.
I see nothing wrong with it, its just a more secure and safe way to buy and sell real life money thats been going on in almost every online game today.
Maybe I am a purist, I just want to play games without the taint of RL buying power coming into the equation.
The upside to this is that I have other players potentially paying for the production of content Blizzard might add to the game.
You're dreaming dude. I wouldn't bank on that at all. They already make people pay for expansions (*cough* updates) in a P2P game.
Quite a few game charged for expansions. That said WoW had alot of expansion worthy updates that were free. To call the expansions just updates though is just biased hate.
Comments
Have fun with shopping onlineBy that standard almost every MMO you can think of is Pay to Win. Just because Blizzard wants to give a way in which you can do it IN GAME doesn't change the fact that every MMO out there you can do it out of game. I doubt I will ever use the in game rl transactions...but I can see why they are doing what they are doing. Truth be told, you really can't do anything about it. Times change just like everything else. You have to accept the fact that RL auctions will be apart of the gaming future (and past) and nothing you believe in or whatever will change that. People will complain about it until everyone just buckles down and accepts it for what it is.
Good luck with that...
Also by your logic every game must be pay to win then, because I can't think of one game out there where you can't go on a website and buy gold, powerlevel, items (when available) you just choose to accept that because it is not as visible or in your face, well cool your ego unless your that one guy that has never done anything in their life that wasn't outside the lines.
Again, buying power is only the case when you are purchasing an item that has no other means of obtaining other than real cash.
Lastly, what you are missing is the vocal minority is split on the subject so even if you manage to gather all 1/2 of them and decide to march on Blizzard and protest, your cries will fall on deaf ears as the silent majority and the other half of the vocal minority either doesn't care or really wants this.
You can always move to Korea, or run for government from where ever you are from to stop it
What are your other Hobbies?
Gaming is Dirt Cheap compared to this...
Its gonna be nice to sit on my butt and make a few bucks here and there doing something i enjoy for once. This is win for everyone. Don't like it? Then dont use it. Its that simple.
This. I don't see why people are so mad about being able to buy items in it. People did it off the walls in Diablo 2, 24/7 buying and selling for real money. There will always be people who pay for power in games, legal or not, so why not benefit from them and make a few bucks off of it. It's still going to be the same item grind for the people who want it to be.
This sums up my opinion very well
This trend won't change. What the real issue is that how far is such a system acceptable? If you were to expand the term P2W then you could say that Gotham City Impostors (which offers DLC for 50% faster XP for unlocks) is a P2W game even though it's highly and purely a skill based FPS.
In D3 it should be called P2W-W. RMT in D3 improves the gaming experience for buyers and sellers and it doesn't affect anyone else. Nobody is losing due to D3 RMT. This is because D3 is designed to be a solo/small lobby game and if you actually join a public game you are aware that someone might be using a "storebrought" item. But this doesn't differ from D2 where people could still be using (against the rules bought items). The mentioned public games are CO-OP so you only benefit from playing with people who have spend money to improve their characters. So in the end it's a WIN-WIN-WIN system where the buyer/seller and the 3rd party (you playing with a heavy spender) benefits. Once the PvP is introduced in D3 I assume it could cause the game turning P2W but it's still capped at the best gear possible from finding within the game. There's no "external" buffing involved.
The whole shebang about GW2 cash shop system has only been an issue because these PvE buffs affect your WvWvW toons aswell. Meaning that people who pay more are winning more in PvP enviroment. That's a problem. In GW2 let's say you buy a 25% speed buff from the cash shop. You then face this enemy in WvWvW and notice he moves 25% faster because he paid and you didn't. This is stupid game breaking bad design and totally unacceptable.
Talking about P2W in PvE games is just silly, seriously.
It has nothing to do with P2W as far as I'm concerned. The problem is that real money is flowing in and OUT of the game now because players have been incentivized to turn it into a business. When all the good gear is being sold for real money, it doesn't leave much for those players who want to enjoy the actual game part of it and not go into business. They won't be able to trade for good stuff within the game and instead will be left with either paying money or doing without, if they want some rare item.
At least while it wasn't officially permitted, people purchasing on the black market ran the risk of losing something if they tried it. They could have their credit card compromised, their account hacked or their identity stolen. That tended to keep people with more than two brain cells to rub together, away from third party farmers. Now, those same farming scum will be operating within the game with impunity because Blizzard has given them the green light. Now everyone is a potential customer for them, not just the morons, because the risk has disappeared. And who can't lose under these conditions? Blizzard. It's all profit for them, no matter who is doing the buying and selling. This was not done with the players' interests in mind, only their own.
Now if this scheme was being pulled off by some unknown developer in Korea, I wouldn't care one bit. But because it's Blizzard, there's a real threat that others will copy the model. I can easily forego playing D3, but it's going to suck if others start following in their footsteps. I do not want to see my games turned into business endeavours for players. If they want to earn real money, get a job. Games should remain just that -- games.
Definitely seems that way.
And you know what the real crazy thing is...money seriously has nothing to do with my issue. I wouldn't mind paying $80 for a game if that's what it took to get game-altering RMT out.
I just want a game to be about the game and only the game. I don't want it to have an ulterior motive of selling you in-game stuff.
And I'm not totally draconian about this concept either. I don't mind, and would even support, companies releasing (reasonably priced) new content made AFTER RELEASE as paid DLC. To me, this is just like a "micro-expansion" and I see no issue with it.
I just don't like buying game-altering goods like in game money, exp boosts, etc.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
The stuff that you're selling for real cash would have been stuff that others would have been trading for in-game without this RMT model. Now that you and (I'm sure) most others can turn a buck on it, there's very little chance that anything worthwhile will be available for players who want no part of RMT. So they in fact have little choice in the matter. If they want some hard to get gear, they can play the lottery and hope for that rare drop (possibly waiting months without success), or they pony up real cash for it.
Sorry bud, that ain't no choice. You just don't see it because the situation currently caters to your preference. I mean, you have a choice too. You could always sell that ultra-rare drop for in-game gold instead of a decent wad of cash. What are the odds of that happening? Yeah, and that's what I think everyone else will be saying too. Hence, no trading for good gear unless you use real money.
I thought D3 was going to launch some servers with no rl ah
after reading the faq - its clear theres no option for that
Blizzards excuse is they dont want to divide the community
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/services/auction-house/info
the issue some people have w RL AH is
some players will be buying their way to upgrade gear, Pay to Win style
yes, players have always done this in all mmos but its more annoying when the company is encouraging it
EQ2 fan sites
1. This game is not an MMO, so please stop comparing it to such. PTW is so much more of an issue in a straight up normal MMORPG. This game is far more single-playerish to warrant a comparison. (Yes I know what site we are on)
2. Do you remember the D2 auction house? Yeah the text spamming crap. The RLAH and normal AH are both heads and shoulders above than what D2 offered. So saying that the RLAH will take away from the normal AH is still a mute arguement from my point of view considering ANY AH is an upgrade from an already amazing game (D2).
3. Pay to Win was a huge deal in D2. Having it a huge deal in D3 is actually not a big deal. I honestly can't remember a bigger "black market" market than what D2 had. There were so many farmer shops on the webz for this game it is truely stupid of Blizzard not to include a regulated, mandated RLAH.
4. Money is good for a game in whatever means they see fit. RLAH taxes, Guild Wars 2 Cash Shop, monthly payments...whatever. You don't get whatever you want for free in the real world nor in fake worlds. You need to accept that.
5. If someone wants to Pay to Win this game, let them. I hardly see any way it will actually affect YOU. This isn't some persistent world MMO with 1k people on it and you know everyone. You will not know 99.9999999999% of the population of this game. So if xXSephirothXx wants to pay for his shinies with RL money so be it.
p2w is not unique to mmos
p2w is a valid concern for any online game
personally I'm neutral to it but its not something to be lightly dismissed either
EQ2 fan sites
It's arguably even worse in other games, because you generally did not have to pay to essentially cheat in other games. Imagine if Konami charged you $0.99 every time you entered the 99 lives code in Contra?
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
And what techniques are they going to use to prevent item selling in the other server type?
The way I see it, the game is about finding gear and loot. If you just buy loot with real money you are essentially skipping the game. If you bought a game just so you could pay up in order to skip playing it, why did you even get it in the first place?
Secondly, I feel rich people have enough advantages IRL for them to have advantages in games also based on their wealth.
Thirdly, it's an established system within the game itself, so now rather than a select few hardcore individuals doing it, it's a generally accepted norm available to everyone, anywhere, with ease. This makes transactions far more widespread, tremendously amplifying the issue.
The upside to this is that I have other players potentially paying for the production of content Blizzard might add to the game.
You're dreaming dude. I wouldn't bank on that at all. They already make people pay for expansions (*cough* updates) in a P2P game.
Like GW2? lol'd
Good, calling it like I see it.