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Crafting? certain? or by chance?
Dewm
Member UncommonPosts: 1,337
In the last couple of years we havn't seen any games that focus on crafting, even more so, we havn't seen any games where crafting a recepie is based on a chance,
Crafting wood sword 30% of failing.. etc..
So which do you prefer? the WoW-esq never fail... or the FFXIV chance of failure?
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Comments
I've always been partial to skill affecting either change of failure or quality of gear. RNG seems to just create frustration for the player, and perfect success changes a 'try' scenario into basic 'do' process which can get repetitive due to the lack of surprise or player controlled mitigating factors.
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I think there should be a chance that the quality of the item created is sub-par and vice versa.
I lean towards chance-of-failure while doing research for new patterns, never-fail while doing the actual crafting.
I find it's anti-climactic to gather all the materials and then arrive at the anvil not knowing if you have completed your quest or are going to have to go back and do it all over again.
For research, on the other hand, you really never know what the outcome of your experiment will be until you try it. Even in games without an actual research mechanic, the chance-of-skill-gain tends to fill this role.
If there is to be a chance of failure, shouldn't it depend on something you do, not just randomness?
I'd sya minigame with option to do it based off of skilllevel.
In FFXI depending on your level there is a higher chance/lower chance of success. So if I was a level 5 craftin a level 6 recepie then I would have a 60% chance of failure,
If I was level 5 crafting a level 5 it was 50%-50% etc...
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You didn't parse what I said. I said depend on something you do. Not depend on how much time you've spent grinding in the past. Something you do while crafting.
A Tale in the Desert and Puzzle Pirates found a lot of ways to do this.
So what you are saying is between a skill or a random system you would pick skill.
But if it happened to be random, you want it not to fail randomly but on skill.
Ok, got it.
Crafting system, generally, are way too quick. Making that uber sword should take weeks instead of minutes.
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Like AC's Atlan Weapons.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Anything less than a 100% success at anything you try to craft is a time sink. Period. Thats all it is. Heck, crafting is a time sink enough but I guess in some games you get some good stuff to share, sell, or use. But if it only works half the time, or has a chance of failure?
Time sink. And Im sorry, but anyone who likes time sinks in games where it turns your game into work or wastes your time when the game doesnt really necessarily have too? Thats nuts. They either haven't thought it through or they're crazy. Id imagine the former would the most common problem.
What you are forgetting is the Reason for Blizzard's success are their loot tables. They first discovered this in Diablo 1 & 2. and carried the lessons learned of Pavlovian Loot Drops over to WoW. People "Dream" of loot & drops.
You know what happens in games where crafted items are the focus, and crafters become renowned? Those same crafters become resented. Under Bartle 's K.A.S.E. crafters are Socializers with a bit of Achiever & Explorer. The customer base for all this lovely crafted goodness are Killers. The K type likes to feel solely responsible for their success. Depending on Socializers or S type game play is the ultimate in humiliation and frustration.
Last year ( '11 ), I read a post that referred to Aion's crafting as an example. K types felt pressured to take up crafting to make an End Game set of Wings, and this poster postulated that K types resented being forced to craft just to get these Wings. At first K types will go along with buying crafted items, but then they will roll their own Alt crafters to cut out the Main Player Crafters. Faced with a play style they don't enjoy, the K types will leave the game.
Devs know this. So crafting now follows the trend of a simple system and items that don't surpass Loot Drops, and PvP rewards. Just to keep the K types coming back.
Modern MMOs are not dumbed down for kids, or casual players. They are dumbed down for Hardcore Raiders and Hardcore PvPers ( Bartle Killers ).
BTW I like crafting failure. If I had my way, the phase of the moon, and blood types would affect crafting success rates.
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As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
All themeparks focus on PvE. Crafting is just a feature just to have one more thing to do in the game when you have downtime
I would love to see a themepark with crafting that allows you to be a complete crafter without having to raid or do any PvE to achieve everything crafting has to offer.
I have been spoiled by Vanguard about this.
There crafting is not a "click button and hope for the best" kind of crafting, but an involved minigame where yes, you have a chance of failure.
But if you're well equipped and/or high above the level of the recipe, and know what you're doing, though, the failure chance is extremely small.
Vanguard is one of the few games that does crafting right. It's a sphere by itself. It takes planning and strategy + stats management. Not to mention you have interesting quest lines completely seperate from PvE.
You can say a lot about the pipe puffing Brad but he clearly had the vision.
Wall of Text incoming:
I like to have many different systems. I am down for chance of failure, chance of not as good, chance of better, skill based, minigame based, may based, tool based.
But If I had to choose one way I would say this:
Optional minigame.
Base non minigame value is 100%.
Minigame value is from 100% to 200%.
For the pure how well you did the value is +60%.
There is then a chance to do exceptionally well.
And then the chance to do amazingly well.
The chance bonuses exist regardless of success. But are mediated by the skill. So if you totally bombed, the chance to do well is low and is a 4% bonus just for trying the minigame. Then a small chance for the second 4% bonus.
At 60% is when you get 20% bonuses.
At 30% you get like, 12% bonuses.
Also there should be a use for all weapons regardless of being 100% or 200%.
For instance you carry 1 sword for res gathering or grinding or training, and one sword for going on raids or dungeons or pvp or w/e dangerous and important things.
RNG is too much work. People will stand there keep clicking to get a good item, and then complain how boring it is.
This reminds me of fishing or archaelogy in WOW, which is hated by a lot of people.
I'd prefer an always make whatever with a random/skillbased etc. quality or durability.
Neither. Crafting should be based on playerskills, through mini-games of some sort, and the results should depend based on the type, amount and quality of the ressources. And it should be hard, because if everyone can do it, Dedicated Crafters loses their purposes.
This only makes sense in a themepark where spending 12 hours trying to get an optimal weapon doesn't matter because there is no risk involved. In an RTSy sandbox with real world changes and a dynamic world if you waste 12 hours of your time trying to get a 10% damage boost the demon army will lsaughter your guild and destroy your buildings and they will be gone forever.
Whereas in WoW no matter how much time you waste rerolling your sword of shiny purple Deathwing will never destroy the world.
All of the problems I have seen you bring up in recent threads are entirely created by themepark game mechanics.
I like 0% chance failure. I suppose I believe that the quality of items you can craft should depend on how experienced you are in that craft.
In real life, if I were to craft a shirt, it would be pretty terrible, but likely wearable. As I made more and more shirts, I would learn little tricks that got me better as time went on. At some point I would be a hell of a shirt maker.
But not at any point would I fail at making a shirt. They just might start out a bit lumpy and strange looking. I think this can go for armor or weapons as well. As long as you know the basics, you're always going to make some version of what you are trying to make. I suppose this is all based on the assumtion that the character has learned the basics at some point.
I sort of disagree.
While I do consider myself a craftoholic, I don't like the idea of crafting mini-games. Or at least not in any way they've been implemented so far.
The problem I have with them is that no matter how cool a mini-game is, playing through it thousands of times just to level your skill gets easily repetitive and tiresome.
I honestly loved the crafting system in Final Fantasy XI more than any other game. The actual process of crafting was quick and simple, but there were so many factors involved that determined chance of success. Your skill level, obviously (or levels, pural, since many recipies required skill in multiple trades); the current weather; day of the week; special crafting skills you earned from a guild; supposedly even the direction you faced while crafting all had bearing on your results. Ingredients were also not so easy to obtain as simply clicking on a node that reappeared every 2 minutes. The recipies were many and varied, also. Not divided into 10-level or 20-level tiers. Every item that every enemy dropped in that game had some use if not in a crafting recipe, then for a quest of mission of some sort somewhere. The items you made were highly sought after, as well.
The crafting action itself doesn't need to be overly convoluted, as long as the process as a whole has some depth and meaning to it.
I would actually like a minigame of some kind. But I would say that grinding skills to get useful items is the problem and not minigames. If you have to make 10000 crappy swords to make a good sword that is the problem. Any item you make should be useful.
Trouble is, if you remove the skill building, then anyone can make that awesome sword and it kind of loses its value. You chould change the system so that obtaining the materials alone is the trying part, but then crafting becomes no different than a gear grind.
If there were a way to create a mini-game that constantly changes that would be nice, but whether or not that's plausable from a development perspective is questionable.
No what I mean is that all items should be useful. So you would still have to make a lot of swords to get a top quality one, but the other ones you made would be more than vendor trash. I am all for endless skill building :P
I like the way LOTRO does it.
First tier is guaranteed to make an item as long as you have the mats. But the second tier has a chance to crit a higher stat and more desirable version of the item as long as you have an additional crit-potential-boosting ingredient. No guarantee to crit, though and the extra ingredients are usually quite expensive or rare to obtain.
Pretty frustrating to be at 78% crit chance and fail 3-5 times in a row!