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Virtual World Role Playing Games(VWRPGs)

CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member

We were talking about this in another thread. Just referring to sandbox and simulationy games as VWRPGs to avoid both confusion and those posters who insist on including the most ridiculous things in the definition of MMORPGs.

I have decided to use this acronym at all times in the future since I like regular mmorpgs but we have plenty of those and I really only want to discuss sandbox/virtual world type games.

I have these are personal qualifications for VWRPGs:

Significant player decisions

Persistent results of actions

Deep non combat systems like crafting and magic and building and politics and socializing

No instances and generally open worldish

Interactions across "zone borders" by the environment

No linear story and more open ended quests

Freedom of play style

 

I think it would be useful to for people interested in games with these features as VWRPGs not because I think that MMORPG should be used the way it is, but because it just saves so much arguing and certain posters who keep repeating the same points over and over even when they should know that that doesn't accomplish anything. It would just allow us to move passed the drama to more fruitful or at least more interesting discussions.

Does anyone have their own ideas of what sorts of features add to sandbox or virtual world games? Does a game need most or all or only some of these features to count?

How can we get more of these games? What are the best ones?

Do you agree or not agree that using a more specific term would save time and trouble?

Have you already started using this or similar terms?

Labels are used to save trouble. Instead of describing a genre each time you do it once and then use the label. MMORPG has become a totally worthless label with games like LoL and Diablo and shitty browser games getting forums or listings on this and other sites.

Themepark and sandbox are somewhat more useful but I would really like a word that I can hear and KNOW that I want to talk about that kind of game.

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Comments

  • ElderRatElderRat Syracuse, NYPosts: 899Member

    Consequence gaming?

    Currently bored with MMO's.

  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member

    Originally posted by ElderRat

    Consequence gaming?

    That's an alternate name? Any criteria? Consequence gaming seems like a subset of virtual world games. At least someone posted, I was worried I was gonna be on page two by now.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    VWRPG is a good term. There is no need to find other names. It is pretty clear what it means.

    I vote to use it.

  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member

    I still wish they had allowed us to have a sandbox only forum. Woulda saved us the trouble of doing this.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,590Member Uncommon

    I believe I had a similar conversation with a friend not too long ago, here is the email I sent him:

    I'll appologize in advance if this is not what you mean.

    [EmaiI]

    Below is a collection of things I have played and liked, basically all wrapped into a single game.



    The best game is about options. and many different choices. NEVER be locked into anything in the game. (save maybe breeds and gender) but I think those should be aesthetic only.



    The game itself would be a hybrid game. Galactic space travellers areland on a world where native people have inherent abilities like psionics or something. This will aloow for players to choose a tradiditional fantasy setting or Sci Fi setting in the same world.



    Game is classless. All abilities and skills are trainable to any toon at any point. You just have to want to level it. There is a little known game out there called Ryzom. The game is aging and almost no playerbase left. Which is a shame because they have a concept that is just so simple and yet so awesome. It's this. You can do whatever you

    want. If you apply the experience to it. You want to build a crafter, Then you go craft. . Then you decide to be a mage, well, just go take up casting. Then you decide you want hack at stuff with a big sword...then you go level that. TC...no limits. There is no overall cap or pool of experience. You have skills based on what you have leveled., You could be level 100 in crafting but level 20 in Fighting and maybe 40 in Magic. and 110 in gathering. But you simply change gears and do something else and level it. Its like having all your alts wrapped into one toon. It was all what you decided to pursue. It's like SWG only better. (Since this is what I loved about SWG. Difference in SWG was that if you leveled a Rifle master then decided you want to be a doctor, you have to give up your rifle skills. But in Ryzom, you could just be both. You are never done with your character. Make your role defined by the gear you wear. So if you are wearing healing gear, you aren't gonging to be very effective as a fighter. Changing gear would take just long enough to make you entirely unable to do it mid fight without issues. This would keep OPness down through role focusing. (in a way, it would be a bit like Rift's soul system, but based on equipped gear.



    Content:

    would be another issue. There needs to be stuff to do and gear to get and ways to advance your character based on weather or not teams are available. It is in this way that Anarchy is one of my favorites. There is literally so many things to do endgame it's ridiculous I can't even get into all the different things to do. It's a lot. The major flaw with it however, is that it's almost 100% team based. If your buds are offline, you might as well be too. You aren't doing much of any of it. So, for those times, there should be solo content. OK, so build a Themepark in your sandbox for solo stuff. You can get good gear and good experience, Respectable stuff. But the best stuff will

    be crafted, but at no time, will the solo player be out of something to do.



    Gear:

    Almost everything else that you ever use is created by other players. However. making them better is what you do endgame.Crafting. I like the crafting system in Ryzom. There are so many factors that go into the stuff you make. Materials can be gathered from killing mobs or harvested from the ground. The item can represent a particular slot component. So if you are making a ring for example, the "stone" setting could come from different sources, from something harvested like gemstone, or from a mob such as an eye. But it's not just about filling a slot, it's the type of material that determines the overal effect. so you can mix and match to create many different stat combinations. There is also material quality as well. That just scratches the surface.

    Pets:

    I cannot stand the game as a whole but, Rappelz has one of the best pet systems in an RPG, I am sure you are familiar. But breeding and combining pets. OK, lose the card mechanic, but adapt.

    Anyway, I think you get the idea, Take proven features in certain games and make one great one.

     

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by Cuathon

    I still wish they had allowed us to have a sandbox only forum. Woulda saved us the trouble of doing this.

    Start you own. It is not like forum software/hosting is hard to get.

    You should start a forum/page for your game anyway. It is better to have its own place to be discussed. At least, i am not likely to bother you there.

  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member

    Well its not exactly on topic. This is about defining a general catergory or subgenre as opposed to an ideal game, but I certainly agree with a lot of what you said.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,590Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Cuathon

    Well its not exactly on topic. This is about defining a general catergory or subgenre as opposed to an ideal game, but I certainly agree with a lot of what you said.

    Ok, I kinda misunderstood the topic then,

    However, I think the wo may overlap some. Assuming that we are talking about a niche product here.

     

    Let me rephrase that.

    I am not sure I could define the sub genre. Althought I can see where some of my ideas wouldn't belong in a sub category definition. Like the world setting. that's just a preference.

  • Mister_ReMister_Re Detroit, MIPosts: 142Member
    I use VWRPG. And I agree with your definition.
    I think only indie devs will give us on atm.
  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Cuathon

    I still wish they had allowed us to have a sandbox only forum. Woulda saved us the trouble of doing this.

    Start you own. It is not like forum software/hosting is hard to get.

    You should start a forum/page for your game anyway. It is better to have its own place to be discussed. At least, i am not likely to bother you there.

    Starting my own forum isn't the best method. Its incredibly hard to get forum traffic or even let people know about some random dudes forum. I doubt mmorpg.com would approve me advertising or talking about a personal forum on their site.

    And even if people knew about the site, what is the chance that they would check it often or spend a lot of time posting there? Plus the chance of new people ending up there would be small.

    I have been on a lot of small forums for games or topics. Glest has a for about the 3 forks of Glest that are all functioning games. Sure the graphical quality is sub Warlords battlecry, another completed commercial game with 3 titles that is practically dead. Both of which were awesomer than Warcraft ever was. Starcraft was better than them though.

    That forum is practically dead. They got maybe 20 people who still post.

    I will probably make a forum when I am much farther along in development though.

  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member

    Originally posted by Mister_Re

    I use VWRPG. And I agree with your definition.

    I think only indie devs will give us on atm.

    Now if only they had the money and time to make a game with fewer bugs, better advertising and better art assets.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,590Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Cuathon

    Originally posted by nariusseldon


    Originally posted by Cuathon

    I still wish they had allowed us to have a sandbox only forum. Woulda saved us the trouble of doing this.

    Start you own. It is not like forum software/hosting is hard to get.

    You should start a forum/page for your game anyway. It is better to have its own place to be discussed. At least, i am not likely to bother you there.

    Starting my own forum isn't the best method. Its incredibly hard to get forum traffic or even let people know about some random dudes forum. I doubt mmorpg.com would approve me advertising or talking about a personal forum on their site.

    And even if people knew about the site, what is the chance that they would check it often or spend a lot of time posting there? Plus the chance of new people ending up there would be small.

    I have been on a lot of small forums for games or topics. Glest has a for about the 3 forks of Glest that are all functioning games. Sure the graphical quality is sub Warlords battlecry, another completed commercial game with 3 titles that is practically dead. Both of which were awesomer than Warcraft ever was. Starcraft was better than them though.

    That forum is practically dead. They got maybe 20 people who still post.

    I will probably make a forum when I am much farther along in development though.

    Have you tried petitioning MMORPG?

    I'd sign it

  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member

    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    Originally posted by Cuathon


    Originally posted by nariusseldon


    Originally posted by Cuathon

    I still wish they had allowed us to have a sandbox only forum. Woulda saved us the trouble of doing this.

    Start you own. It is not like forum software/hosting is hard to get.

    You should start a forum/page for your game anyway. It is better to have its own place to be discussed. At least, i am not likely to bother you there.

    Starting my own forum isn't the best method. Its incredibly hard to get forum traffic or even let people know about some random dudes forum. I doubt mmorpg.com would approve me advertising or talking about a personal forum on their site.

    And even if people knew about the site, what is the chance that they would check it often or spend a lot of time posting there? Plus the chance of new people ending up there would be small.

    I have been on a lot of small forums for games or topics. Glest has a for about the 3 forks of Glest that are all functioning games. Sure the graphical quality is sub Warlords battlecry, another completed commercial game with 3 titles that is practically dead. Both of which were awesomer than Warcraft ever was. Starcraft was better than them though.

    That forum is practically dead. They got maybe 20 people who still post.

    I will probably make a forum when I am much farther along in development though.

    Have you tried petitioning MMORPG?

    I'd sign it



    I am pretty sure I would have to have much more work to show to get a petition accepted. Maybe in a few months or a year?

  • SythionSythion Salem, ORPosts: 422Member

    I like VWRPG much better than sandbox.

     

    Sandbox has a derogatory connotation that implies a world that cannot interact with you. You can build stuff in the sand, but there's no narrative except what the players make up while playing in their sand castles.

    I think what you are suggesting has a natural sense of narrative to it, even if it's not in the form of traditional quests.

     

    I hope this idea grows, because as long as the mmorpg community is divided between hardcore themepark rangers and sandboxers then we're going to struggle to find games that take the best of both worlds.

    image
  • DannyGloverDannyGlover Portland, ORPosts: 1,277Member

    +1 for VWRPG. I like it!

    I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.

  • mmoguy43mmoguy43 , CAPosts: 2,439Member Uncommon

    I've probably used a similar term but not consistantly. With it, I try to emphasize the need for player interaction. Not complete dependancy, but partial, just enough that players do not play entirely solo. That may not fit for a broad definition, though.

    I wonder what games the OP has in mind that could recieve the VWRPG label. Mount&Blade? Skyrim? SWG? Vanguard?

  • LarsaLarsa NurembergPosts: 990Member

    VWRPG?

    The board of carmaker Volkswagen (in many countries known as VW) approves ... I don't think that inventing a new name will have any lasting effect on the industry. :)

    I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.

  • MumboJumboMumboJumbo LondonPosts: 3,221Member

    Originally posted by Larsa

    VWRPG?

    The board of carmaker Volkswagen (in many countries known as VW) approves ... I don't think that inventing a new name will have any lasting effect on the industry. :)

    Haha... but a break-away definition in mmorpgs would be suitably contextual, so should be fine.  : ) Virtual World -RPG is needed for demarcation of the genre, I'd consider. To act as a qualification Boundary.

    Eg: In gw2guru forums many posters used sandbox to describe their view of this game

    1) sandbox-direction of themepark features

    2) spectrum view of where on the scale in comparision to other mmorpgs in a themepark heavily dominated landscape said features they felt in relation they lie! ie a very different median measure and probably logarithmically waaaay away from virtual world.

    eg full world virtual economy etc... tick all criteria to pass as V.W.-RPG

    HMMM....

    On second thoughts perhaps the RPG part needs a look at too?

    David Braben - Elite's 25th Anniversary

    Eg David Braben in his 25th anniversary of elite mentions this that you can choose trader/pirate/bounty hunter, but your CHOICE -> ACTION taken vs enter the world as a:

    a) warrior

    b) wizard

    c) rogue

    d) etc...

    i wonder if this definition also needs a BOUNDARY as well from: Set-Classes vs Open-Path (skills)?

    CONCLUSION:

    A lot of work required to define/use precedents for creation of said term! Eg Venn Diagrams for high level conceptual classification etc. : )

  • ThemePorkThemePork Boston, MAPosts: 312Member

    I like this! I was really getting tired of the sandbox label, it sounds so kindergarden...

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,995Member Uncommon

    One question, did you mean to sweep single player virtual world titles such as Skyrim into the defintion?  If not, then a better way to phrase it would be VWORPG to reflect the online component of the name and remain consistent with other conventions.

    I agree, labels are helpful, myself I feel that GW2 has either refined or redefined the MMO space by creating what should probably be called a MMOARPG (Action) since they've more or less stripped out character progression/distinction to the point that everyone quite easily ends up more or less the same, much like a FPS.

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,995Member Uncommon

    Now, as far as features I think a VWRPG should have, I personally feel it has to have some sort of properly designed player conflict system.

    I know, there will be people who argue that an all PVE system is fine, and I am not advocating that all virtual worlds must be lawless FFA, full loot games.

    But they should really have some area for player conflict, a la EVE's 0.0 space, DAOC's frontiers perhaps, but I really think virtual worlds have to provide a place for players to compete against each other.

    As someone else said, consequences should be a core feature.  It should hurt to lose, and therefore players should try very hard not to lose in the process of winning. 

    Of course, this restricts one's ability to take wild risks, but that's how it should be, big risk should result sometimes in great rewards, but most times end up in failure.

    Perhaps I favor VW's that are more realistic, and I suppose there are those who would prefer they don't come with the limitations of real life, so there is some lattitude in design here.  (for example, no need to program in bathroom mechanics into my games, I get enough of that in RL)  image

    But weight limits would be nice, bothers the heck out of me when characters can run around with a metric ton or two of gear and stuff, it really should be based on your character stats like in old school RPG's.

    In the end, I think VW's must force (yes, I used that word) their players to make choices, and those choices must have consequences, both positive and negative.

     

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common

    What is the point of defining something so closely? What should the rest of the games do? Should they be labelled as "the rest" or is it just a matter of "fuck the rest"?

    I can't help but imagine a bunch of kids building a treehouse and then deciding who should be invited.

    No. I see no point using the term as OP describes it. Much of the points mentioned are vague and subjective.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon

    Virtual Online World Role playing Game
    (VOWRPG) - Don't forget the online part

    image
    TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  • fenistilfenistil GliwicePosts: 3,005Member

    Originally posted by Mellkor

    Virtual Online World Role playing Game

    (VOWRPG) - Don't forget the online part

    +1

  • stormseekazstormseekaz STL, MOPosts: 168Member

    +1 to VWRPG as well.

    Mainly because the term "MMO" has been beaten to a bloody pulp and it's being thrown around for the absolute dumbest things.  Like people calling Black Light Retribution an MMOFPS.  No... its just a regular f'n online FPS with the level/unlock system that every damn FPS has nowadays.  Browser based online RTS... MMORTS?  What?

    So a new term without the "MMO" infront is a good change in my eyes...

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