I was interested in Salem until I saw perma death. (no thanks) The poor graphics didn't help either.
That's my main interest in the game, to each his own I guess.
The problem I have with perma death is if I want to be a pure crafter I'm just putting a bullseye on my back. I don't see the fun in this. I understand why the pvp crowd would like perma death. The issue is I'm a crafter at heart so I will pass.
I'm not gonna be playing it just for the pvp, I enjoy the fact that you'll be able to craft and build everything. I just imagine having friends and allies will go a long way at keeping what you build safe. That just sounds exciting to me, I understand what you're saying though.
Oh and the graphics might not be that great but it still beats minecraft's blockiness graphics. I'm just ready for a game that has fun gameplay, I'm starting to not care so much about graphics anymore.
I was interested in Salem until I saw perma death. (no thanks) The poor graphics didn't help either.
That's my main interest in the game, to each his own I guess.
The problem I have with perma death is if I want to be a pure crafter I'm just putting a bullseye on my back. I don't see the fun in this. I understand why the pvp crowd would like perma death. The issue is I'm a crafter at heart so I will pass.
I'm not gonna be playing it just for the pvp, I enjoy the fact that you'll be able to craft and build everything. I just imagine having friends and allies will go a long way at keeping what you build safe. That just sounds exciting to me, I understand what you're saying though.
Oh and the graphics might not be that great but it still beats minecraft's blockiness graphics. I'm just ready for a game that has fun gameplay, I'm starting to not care so much about graphics anymore.
Well let me know how it goes maybe you can convince me one day to hop on board. I miss sandbox play so much I'm might be willing to over look perma death if the game play is a lot of fun.
I was interested in Salem until I saw perma death. (no thanks) The poor graphics didn't help either.
That's my main interest in the game, to each his own I guess.
The problem I have with perma death is if I want to be a pure crafter I'm just putting a bullseye on my back. I don't see the fun in this. I understand why the pvp crowd would like perma death. The issue is I'm a crafter at heart so I will pass.
Unless you are part of a town with guards and stuff which imo is what makes the community.
I just learned that The Repopulation is totally abandoning crafters with their simplified resource system which will create armies of crafters who can make identical stuff....
source?
Post by Trixie in the Repop Gameplay forum
At this point, there is no plan to have the many different 'stats' for each resource that SWG did. BUT, each resource is going to have up to 5 different quality levels, and the quality of the end product is based on the quality of the lowest item. (kind of like the weakest link)
Also, you're not going to have fifteen different types of steel, you will have 'steel' with its quality levels. On the other hand, if you are making a dagger then you won't be required to use 'steel' you can use 'iron' or 'ore' or (I believe, but not 100% sure) several other main ingredients. If you put in iron, you get an iron dagger that is one thing, if you put in steel, you get a steel dagger with slightly different base stats.
The complexity of SWG crafting was based on having harvesters dropped everywhere in the world to get the 'best' spawn. Harvesters gathered many more times the amount that a single person could (even if you macro'd it). In Repop, harvesters will be a city structure, they will gather less than what a person can, and they will have 0 chance to get a surprise random high quality resource the way gathering yourself will.
Also, the spawns themselves are set up completely different. Instead of a static, timed spawn that people drop harvesters on and came back a week later, most of the resource gathering is going to be by exploring and doing it by yourself.
We were asking about how crafters materials would be, and if the crafting system allowed for people to differentiate themselves from one another, and she described a crafting system where a crafter would have the ability to swap out each of the requried base types, and that the overall quality of the item would be determined by the "level" of it's parts. However with only 6 distinct possibilities for materials...within a month of game release, we will see a situation where nobody would buy anything not made with all T6 materials. Having a game without levels means the gear isn't gated as in traditional games, and so anything other than the best stuff (seeing as how there are only 6 ypes of each mat) will be useless. This is one of the VERY few drawbacks to a level-less system IMHO.
It just made me finally accept that what I'm looking for in a game doesn't seem to exist, and thats sad because when I ask other dedicated crafters on forums it seems like a fairly common consensus that our "optimal" system could be implimented, but it never is.
Oh well, only time will tell, Repop is still very early in development, maybe I'm misunderstanding the crafting system (I REALLY hope I am) or maybe it will change with time.
I guess with a string of horrible releases...I'm a bit cynical when it comes to my expectations.
Hello mate, IMO the only sandbox worth playing is EVE.
I have tried so many over the years and none of them are any good. I just played Mortal Online for a few days, Awful Awful game.
Sorry I can't help you, the game you are looking for sounds good.
I just started Mortal online for 2-3 weeks ago. The rough old school UI + hardish learning curve made MO difficult to approach. I could play about an hour or two per day for the first week before frustration arrived.
Then I got over the UI and actually made decisions what direction I want to develop my character and it got a lot more interesting. Actually it was my 3 characters: 1 fighter(mage), 2nd miner and 3rd crafter and switching between those characters and their roles I found a lot of fun too.
I'd like to hear why kanester thinks it's awfull awfull game. I'd give it a shot
I got about a week into Mortal Online, and then I quit, the UI is awful, and the gameplay feels real clunky...I am looking for something a bit more recent feeling. If i wanted to play an old game, I could simply go play SWGemu.
They are preparing Awakening patch which is supposed to overhaul UI + other major features in Mortal Online. We'll see how that comes out, sadly small indie companies seem to take ages to bring these to daylight...
Originally posted by cronos1013 Originally posted by DannyGlover
Originally posted by cronos1013 I just learned that The Repopulation is totally abandoning crafters with their simplified resource system which will create armies of crafters who can make identical stuff....
source? Post by Trixie in the Repop Gameplay forum At this point, there is no plan to have the many different 'stats' for each resource that SWG did. BUT, each resource is going to have up to 5 different quality levels, and the quality of the end product is based on the quality of the lowest item. (kind of like the weakest link)
Also, you're not going to have fifteen different types of steel, you will have 'steel' with its quality levels. On the other hand, if you are making a dagger then you won't be required to use 'steel' you can use 'iron' or 'ore' or (I believe, but not 100% sure) several other main ingredients. If you put in iron, you get an iron dagger that is one thing, if you put in steel, you get a steel dagger with slightly different base stats.
The complexity of SWG crafting was based on having harvesters dropped everywhere in the world to get the 'best' spawn. Harvesters gathered many more times the amount that a single person could (even if you macro'd it). In Repop, harvesters will be a city structure, they will gather less than what a person can, and they will have 0 chance to get a surprise random high quality resource the way gathering yourself will.
Also, the spawns themselves are set up completely different. Instead of a static, timed spawn that people drop harvesters on and came back a week later, most of the resource gathering is going to be by exploring and doing it by yourself.
We were asking about how crafters materials would be, and if the crafting system allowed for people to differentiate themselves from one another, and she described a crafting system where a crafter would have the ability to swap out each of the requried base types, and that the overall quality of the item would be determined by the "level" of it's parts. However with only 6 distinct possibilities for materials...within a month of game release, we will see a situation where nobody would buy anything not made with all T6 materials. Having a game without levels means the gear isn't gated as in traditional games, and so anything other than the best stuff (seeing as how there are only 6 ypes of each mat) will be useless. This is one of the VERY few drawbacks to a level-less system IMHO. It just made me finally accept that what I'm looking for in a game doesn't seem to exist, and thats sad because when I ask other dedicated crafters on forums it seems like a fairly common consensus that our "optimal" system could be implimented, but it never is. Oh well, only time will tell, Repop is still very early in development, maybe I'm misunderstanding the crafting system (I REALLY hope I am) or maybe it will change with time. I guess with a string of horrible releases...I'm a bit cynical when it comes to my expectations.
hmm. well before throwing the baby out with the bathwater, maybe we should give the devs a chance to even make it into closed alpha testing? just sayin
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
You could always give Craft of Gods a try. It has a vast world to explore,tons of crafting and I think a RvR system. The skill trees can be mixed also, giving you the freedom to play your character how you want to. Haven't given this too much of a try myself, but the short time I did play it kind of reminded me of early EQ and I enjoyed it
I just learned that The Repopulation is totally abandoning crafters with their simplified resource system which will create armies of crafters who can make identical stuff....
source?
Post by Trixie in the Repop Gameplay forum
At this point, there is no plan to have the many different 'stats' for each resource that SWG did. BUT, each resource is going to have up to 5 different quality levels, and the quality of the end product is based on the quality of the lowest item. (kind of like the weakest link)
Also, you're not going to have fifteen different types of steel, you will have 'steel' with its quality levels. On the other hand, if you are making a dagger then you won't be required to use 'steel' you can use 'iron' or 'ore' or (I believe, but not 100% sure) several other main ingredients. If you put in iron, you get an iron dagger that is one thing, if you put in steel, you get a steel dagger with slightly different base stats.
The complexity of SWG crafting was based on having harvesters dropped everywhere in the world to get the 'best' spawn. Harvesters gathered many more times the amount that a single person could (even if you macro'd it). In Repop, harvesters will be a city structure, they will gather less than what a person can, and they will have 0 chance to get a surprise random high quality resource the way gathering yourself will.
Also, the spawns themselves are set up completely different. Instead of a static, timed spawn that people drop harvesters on and came back a week later, most of the resource gathering is going to be by exploring and doing it by yourself.
We were asking about how crafters materials would be, and if the crafting system allowed for people to differentiate themselves from one another, and she described a crafting system where a crafter would have the ability to swap out each of the requried base types, and that the overall quality of the item would be determined by the "level" of it's parts. However with only 6 distinct possibilities for materials...within a month of game release, we will see a situation where nobody would buy anything not made with all T6 materials. Having a game without levels means the gear isn't gated as in traditional games, and so anything other than the best stuff (seeing as how there are only 6 ypes of each mat) will be useless. This is one of the VERY few drawbacks to a level-less system IMHO.
It just made me finally accept that what I'm looking for in a game doesn't seem to exist, and thats sad because when I ask other dedicated crafters on forums it seems like a fairly common consensus that our "optimal" system could be implimented, but it never is.
Oh well, only time will tell, Repop is still very early in development, maybe I'm misunderstanding the crafting system (I REALLY hope I am) or maybe it will change with time.
I guess with a string of horrible releases...I'm a bit cynical when it comes to my expectations.
hmm. well before throwing the baby out with the bathwater, maybe we should give the devs a chance to even make it into closed alpha testing? just sayin
Honestly, I REALLY hope that I'm wrong, as so far the Repop seems like the closest thing to what I'm looking for. I wish that ArcheAge would allow NA players into the beta...
Originally posted by cronos1013 Honestly, I REALLY hope that I'm wrong, as so far the Repop seems like the closest thing to what I'm looking for. I wish that ArcheAge would allow NA players into the beta...
ArcheAge doesn't have a crafting system remotely close to SWG. Just letting you know since that seems to be a deal breaker for you.
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
I just learned that The Repopulation is totally abandoning crafters with their simplified resource system which will create armies of crafters who can make identical stuff....
source?
Post by Trixie in the Repop Gameplay forum
At this point, there is no plan to have the many different 'stats' for each resource that SWG did. BUT, each resource is going to have up to 5 different quality levels, and the quality of the end product is based on the quality of the lowest item. (kind of like the weakest link)
Also, you're not going to have fifteen different types of steel, you will have 'steel' with its quality levels. On the other hand, if you are making a dagger then you won't be required to use 'steel' you can use 'iron' or 'ore' or (I believe, but not 100% sure) several other main ingredients. If you put in iron, you get an iron dagger that is one thing, if you put in steel, you get a steel dagger with slightly different base stats.
The complexity of SWG crafting was based on having harvesters dropped everywhere in the world to get the 'best' spawn. Harvesters gathered many more times the amount that a single person could (even if you macro'd it). In Repop, harvesters will be a city structure, they will gather less than what a person can, and they will have 0 chance to get a surprise random high quality resource the way gathering yourself will.
Also, the spawns themselves are set up completely different. Instead of a static, timed spawn that people drop harvesters on and came back a week later, most of the resource gathering is going to be by exploring and doing it by yourself.
We were asking about how crafters materials would be, and if the crafting system allowed for people to differentiate themselves from one another, and she described a crafting system where a crafter would have the ability to swap out each of the requried base types, and that the overall quality of the item would be determined by the "level" of it's parts. However with only 6 distinct possibilities for materials...within a month of game release, we will see a situation where nobody would buy anything not made with all T6 materials. Having a game without levels means the gear isn't gated as in traditional games, and so anything other than the best stuff (seeing as how there are only 6 ypes of each mat) will be useless. This is one of the VERY few drawbacks to a level-less system IMHO.
It just made me finally accept that what I'm looking for in a game doesn't seem to exist, and thats sad because when I ask other dedicated crafters on forums it seems like a fairly common consensus that our "optimal" system could be implimented, but it never is.
Oh well, only time will tell, Repop is still very early in development, maybe I'm misunderstanding the crafting system (I REALLY hope I am) or maybe it will change with time.
I guess with a string of horrible releases...I'm a bit cynical when it comes to my expectations.
We'll have to see, but the resource problem you describe isn't too different to what happened in SWG. While the crafting system was great, crafters would not make items without using the very best resources available on the server, and combatants would generally only go to those crafters that had those resources to make the very best.
I just learned that The Repopulation is totally abandoning crafters with their simplified resource system which will create armies of crafters who can make identical stuff....
source?
Post by Trixie in the Repop Gameplay forum
At this point, there is no plan to have the many different 'stats' for each resource that SWG did. BUT, each resource is going to have up to 5 different quality levels, and the quality of the end product is based on the quality of the lowest item. (kind of like the weakest link)
Also, you're not going to have fifteen different types of steel, you will have 'steel' with its quality levels. On the other hand, if you are making a dagger then you won't be required to use 'steel' you can use 'iron' or 'ore' or (I believe, but not 100% sure) several other main ingredients. If you put in iron, you get an iron dagger that is one thing, if you put in steel, you get a steel dagger with slightly different base stats.
The complexity of SWG crafting was based on having harvesters dropped everywhere in the world to get the 'best' spawn. Harvesters gathered many more times the amount that a single person could (even if you macro'd it). In Repop, harvesters will be a city structure, they will gather less than what a person can, and they will have 0 chance to get a surprise random high quality resource the way gathering yourself will.
Also, the spawns themselves are set up completely different. Instead of a static, timed spawn that people drop harvesters on and came back a week later, most of the resource gathering is going to be by exploring and doing it by yourself.
We were asking about how crafters materials would be, and if the crafting system allowed for people to differentiate themselves from one another, and she described a crafting system where a crafter would have the ability to swap out each of the requried base types, and that the overall quality of the item would be determined by the "level" of it's parts. However with only 6 distinct possibilities for materials...within a month of game release, we will see a situation where nobody would buy anything not made with all T6 materials. Having a game without levels means the gear isn't gated as in traditional games, and so anything other than the best stuff (seeing as how there are only 6 ypes of each mat) will be useless. This is one of the VERY few drawbacks to a level-less system IMHO.
It just made me finally accept that what I'm looking for in a game doesn't seem to exist, and thats sad because when I ask other dedicated crafters on forums it seems like a fairly common consensus that our "optimal" system could be implimented, but it never is.
Oh well, only time will tell, Repop is still very early in development, maybe I'm misunderstanding the crafting system (I REALLY hope I am) or maybe it will change with time.
I guess with a string of horrible releases...I'm a bit cynical when it comes to my expectations.
We'll have to see, but the resource problem you describe isn't too different to what happened in SWG. While the crafting system was great, crafters would not make items without using the very best resources available on the server, and combatants would generally only go to those crafters that had those resources to make the very best.
I just learned that The Repopulation is totally abandoning crafters with their simplified resource system which will create armies of crafters who can make identical stuff....
source?
Post by Trixie in the Repop Gameplay forum
At this point, there is no plan to have the many different 'stats' for each resource that SWG did. BUT, each resource is going to have up to 5 different quality levels, and the quality of the end product is based on the quality of the lowest item. (kind of like the weakest link)
Also, you're not going to have fifteen different types of steel, you will have 'steel' with its quality levels. On the other hand, if you are making a dagger then you won't be required to use 'steel' you can use 'iron' or 'ore' or (I believe, but not 100% sure) several other main ingredients. If you put in iron, you get an iron dagger that is one thing, if you put in steel, you get a steel dagger with slightly different base stats.
The complexity of SWG crafting was based on having harvesters dropped everywhere in the world to get the 'best' spawn. Harvesters gathered many more times the amount that a single person could (even if you macro'd it). In Repop, harvesters will be a city structure, they will gather less than what a person can, and they will have 0 chance to get a surprise random high quality resource the way gathering yourself will.
Also, the spawns themselves are set up completely different. Instead of a static, timed spawn that people drop harvesters on and came back a week later, most of the resource gathering is going to be by exploring and doing it by yourself.
We were asking about how crafters materials would be, and if the crafting system allowed for people to differentiate themselves from one another, and she described a crafting system where a crafter would have the ability to swap out each of the requried base types, and that the overall quality of the item would be determined by the "level" of it's parts. However with only 6 distinct possibilities for materials...within a month of game release, we will see a situation where nobody would buy anything not made with all T6 materials. Having a game without levels means the gear isn't gated as in traditional games, and so anything other than the best stuff (seeing as how there are only 6 ypes of each mat) will be useless. This is one of the VERY few drawbacks to a level-less system IMHO.
It just made me finally accept that what I'm looking for in a game doesn't seem to exist, and thats sad because when I ask other dedicated crafters on forums it seems like a fairly common consensus that our "optimal" system could be implimented, but it never is.
Oh well, only time will tell, Repop is still very early in development, maybe I'm misunderstanding the crafting system (I REALLY hope I am) or maybe it will change with time.
I guess with a string of horrible releases...I'm a bit cynical when it comes to my expectations.
We'll have to see, but the resource problem you describe isn't too different to what happened in SWG. While the crafting system was great, crafters would not make items without using the very best resources available on the server, and combatants would generally only go to those crafters that had those resources to make the very best.
The problem with SWG's crafting system wasn't the crafting at all, it was that decay wasn't properly implimented. If decay was rapid enough to cause players to NEED to replace gear regularly, then players would have to way the benefits of using amazing gear, or stuff that was disposable. The only stuff that needed to be cycled was doctor buffs...and those frankly don't count.
One of the economic aspects of Eve Online that makes that game so successful is that when items break they're gone, and a similar principle could be implimented in a no space game. It doesn't have to be so draconian as Eve, but perhaps make it like warcraft..except that when you repair stuff, it permanantly loses effectiveness or durability. Make it so once you've repaired something 5 times...and it breaks again...it's just broken and unusable. Make it so that stuff can be salvaged for some of the materials, this would create a market for players to buy old broken gear, break it down into mats, and in turn sell that back to the crafters.
I agree that SWG"s crafting system has problems, and for that reason I'm not looking for a carbon copy, what I want is the next evolutionary step with that similar concept. If you had to replace the gun (or in Repop's case the components mounted to the gun) every 5 hours or so of grinding, you won't be using a super amazing piece of gear...you will use something that is disposable.
Look at early Ultima Online before Trammel and before the bless deeds came out...you wore basically what you weren't afraid to lose, you didn't run around with vanq swords all the time because once you lost them, bam they were gone. When you were running form place to place, you did it naked mile style.
I'm not suggesting they would need to go that draconian on you die and your stuff is gone, as that scares away a lot of players, and I'm not saying that we even should entertain the idea of full loot, as that scares away almost everyone but trolls and griefers. What I am saying is that if a proper decay system was implimented and combined with a crafting system that encouraged anything other than the mass producion of identical objects, the game would be much more appealing to gamers like me who have played MMO's from all different angles...and are looking for a crafter friendly one this time around.
First: thank you for this thread! I agree with almost all of the points made on some level. It has been pleasant to read from the first page on because of the well thought out ideas and lack of trolls. So thank you to everyone!
I'd hardly say full-loot is only for "trolls" or "griefers." I just feel "without risk there is no reward" proverb. I don't feel any thrill what-so-ever in modern mmo's. UO would get my heart pounding because I knew I legitimately stood to lose something valuable if I did something stupid. In fact, I would argue that full-loot has the exact opposite effect of your point: that for the most part it keeps away trolls and griefers because their existence is based off a game perpetuating the allowance of their stupid behavior; full loot keeps idiots at bay.
I'm not saying my logic is flawless. There are always exceptions but the idiots can't take the full loot for long in general. The other major plus for full-loot is that when combined with a good crafting system and a lack of uber loot drops it really creates a strong demand for crafters in a game. I think full-loot has to be carefully implemented in an exceptionally well-balanced game though. But, when I think full-loot I think pre-t2a UO and when I think pre-t2a UO I think the best MMO I've ever played and have never found a replacement.
then wait it out for Archage, besides that, sandbox is a quite dark path. Its a nitch style, and doesnt get to much attention.
R.I.P - SWG
I don't think DF is a true Sandbox game. It is a skill based yes but some of important Sandbox elements are missing. It would need more player freedom building cities, players houses, crows, mines, where players want not predetermined places. Houses should be more decorable. Cities and villages and even player houses should give a controll area which would produce higher amount of materia and other bonuses for their controllers. Armors and clothes should be dyeble and you should be able to wear some garments above armor. There is more but that was a fast cap of my 2 cents...
I just learned that The Repopulation is totally abandoning crafters with their simplified resource system which will create armies of crafters who can make identical stuff....
source?
Post by Trixie in the Repop Gameplay forum
At this point, there is no plan to have the many different 'stats' for each resource that SWG did. BUT, each resource is going to have up to 5 different quality levels, and the quality of the end product is based on the quality of the lowest item. (kind of like the weakest link)
Also, you're not going to have fifteen different types of steel, you will have 'steel' with its quality levels. On the other hand, if you are making a dagger then you won't be required to use 'steel' you can use 'iron' or 'ore' or (I believe, but not 100% sure) several other main ingredients. If you put in iron, you get an iron dagger that is one thing, if you put in steel, you get a steel dagger with slightly different base stats.
The complexity of SWG crafting was based on having harvesters dropped everywhere in the world to get the 'best' spawn. Harvesters gathered many more times the amount that a single person could (even if you macro'd it). In Repop, harvesters will be a city structure, they will gather less than what a person can, and they will have 0 chance to get a surprise random high quality resource the way gathering yourself will.
Also, the spawns themselves are set up completely different. Instead of a static, timed spawn that people drop harvesters on and came back a week later, most of the resource gathering is going to be by exploring and doing it by yourself.
We were asking about how crafters materials would be, and if the crafting system allowed for people to differentiate themselves from one another, and she described a crafting system where a crafter would have the ability to swap out each of the requried base types, and that the overall quality of the item would be determined by the "level" of it's parts. However with only 6 distinct possibilities for materials...within a month of game release, we will see a situation where nobody would buy anything not made with all T6 materials. Having a game without levels means the gear isn't gated as in traditional games, and so anything other than the best stuff (seeing as how there are only 6 ypes of each mat) will be useless. This is one of the VERY few drawbacks to a level-less system IMHO.
It just made me finally accept that what I'm looking for in a game doesn't seem to exist, and thats sad because when I ask other dedicated crafters on forums it seems like a fairly common consensus that our "optimal" system could be implimented, but it never is.
Oh well, only time will tell, Repop is still very early in development, maybe I'm misunderstanding the crafting system (I REALLY hope I am) or maybe it will change with time.
I guess with a string of horrible releases...I'm a bit cynical when it comes to my expectations.
We'll have to see, but the resource problem you describe isn't too different to what happened in SWG. While the crafting system was great, crafters would not make items without using the very best resources available on the server, and combatants would generally only go to those crafters that had those resources to make the very best.
The problem with SWG's crafting system wasn't the crafting at all, it was that decay wasn't properly implimented. If decay was rapid enough to cause players to NEED to replace gear regularly, then players would have to way the benefits of using amazing gear, or stuff that was disposable. The only stuff that needed to be cycled was doctor buffs...and those frankly don't count.
One of the economic aspects of Eve Online that makes that game so successful is that when items break they're gone, and a similar principle could be implimented in a no space game. It doesn't have to be so draconian as Eve, but perhaps make it like warcraft..except that when you repair stuff, it permanantly loses effectiveness or durability. Make it so once you've repaired something 5 times...and it breaks again...it's just broken and unusable. Make it so that stuff can be salvaged for some of the materials, this would create a market for players to buy old broken gear, break it down into mats, and in turn sell that back to the crafters.
I agree that SWG"s crafting system has problems, and for that reason I'm not looking for a carbon copy, what I want is the next evolutionary step with that similar concept. If you had to replace the gun (or in Repop's case the components mounted to the gun) every 5 hours or so of grinding, you won't be using a super amazing piece of gear...you will use something that is disposable.
Look at early Ultima Online before Trammel and before the bless deeds came out...you wore basically what you weren't afraid to lose, you didn't run around with vanq swords all the time because once you lost them, bam they were gone. When you were running form place to place, you did it naked mile style.
I'm not suggesting they would need to go that draconian on you die and your stuff is gone, as that scares away a lot of players, and I'm not saying that we even should entertain the idea of full loot, as that scares away almost everyone but trolls and griefers. What I am saying is that if a proper decay system was implimented and combined with a crafting system that encouraged anything other than the mass producion of identical objects, the game would be much more appealing to gamers like me who have played MMO's from all different angles...and are looking for a crafter friendly one this time around.
There was decay in SWG but they progressively gave into those that complained about item decay until eventually it no longer existed. Originally, SWG even had corpse runs where if you hadn't insured your items you'd have to go back to where your corpse was and pickup your stuff if you wanted them back, however they got rid of that very early on (within the first month). Until the NGE hit, items would decay as you used them and would be accelerated with the use of abilities (I think, it's been a while...)- the only way to avoid decay on an item was to die in PvP or to equip the item with an Anti Decay Kit.
The crucial thing missing was a reliable way to repair damaged items. I'm not sure if you played, but there were repair kits but 99.9% of the time they made the item worse. Had they fixed those up and made them actually work then I think the complaints about decay would have been allot less.
Did you see that The Repopulation will have meaningful decay?
then wait it out for Archage, besides that, sandbox is a quite dark path. Its a nitch style, and doesnt get to much attention.
R.I.P - SWG
I don't think DF is a true Sandbox game. It is a skill based yes but some of important Sandbox elements are missing. It would need more player freedom building cities, players houses, crows, mines, where players want not predetermined places. Houses should be more decorable. Cities and villages and even player houses should give a controll area which would produce higher amount of materia and other bonuses for their controllers. Armors and clothes should be dyeble and you should be able to wear some garments above armor. There is more but that was a fast cap of my 2 cents...
Also R.I.P. pre cu SWG
It's not a sandbox because it doesn't fit your extremely narrow description of a sandbox? Name one sandbox game that lets you do all the thing syou asked for. SWG was the only one I can think of. So you can't name that one.
My clan just returned to darkfall and we're having a great time. The population is scarce, but we have brought in over 30 players this week alone with more on the way.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
I just learned that The Repopulation is totally abandoning crafters with their simplified resource system which will create armies of crafters who can make identical stuff....
source?
Post by Trixie in the Repop Gameplay forum
At this point, there is no plan to have the many different 'stats' for each resource that SWG did. BUT, each resource is going to have up to 5 different quality levels, and the quality of the end product is based on the quality of the lowest item. (kind of like the weakest link)
Also, you're not going to have fifteen different types of steel, you will have 'steel' with its quality levels. On the other hand, if you are making a dagger then you won't be required to use 'steel' you can use 'iron' or 'ore' or (I believe, but not 100% sure) several other main ingredients. If you put in iron, you get an iron dagger that is one thing, if you put in steel, you get a steel dagger with slightly different base stats.
The complexity of SWG crafting was based on having harvesters dropped everywhere in the world to get the 'best' spawn. Harvesters gathered many more times the amount that a single person could (even if you macro'd it). In Repop, harvesters will be a city structure, they will gather less than what a person can, and they will have 0 chance to get a surprise random high quality resource the way gathering yourself will.
Also, the spawns themselves are set up completely different. Instead of a static, timed spawn that people drop harvesters on and came back a week later, most of the resource gathering is going to be by exploring and doing it by yourself.
We were asking about how crafters materials would be, and if the crafting system allowed for people to differentiate themselves from one another, and she described a crafting system where a crafter would have the ability to swap out each of the requried base types, and that the overall quality of the item would be determined by the "level" of it's parts. However with only 6 distinct possibilities for materials...within a month of game release, we will see a situation where nobody would buy anything not made with all T6 materials. Having a game without levels means the gear isn't gated as in traditional games, and so anything other than the best stuff (seeing as how there are only 6 ypes of each mat) will be useless. This is one of the VERY few drawbacks to a level-less system IMHO.
It just made me finally accept that what I'm looking for in a game doesn't seem to exist, and thats sad because when I ask other dedicated crafters on forums it seems like a fairly common consensus that our "optimal" system could be implimented, but it never is.
Oh well, only time will tell, Repop is still very early in development, maybe I'm misunderstanding the crafting system (I REALLY hope I am) or maybe it will change with time.
I guess with a string of horrible releases...I'm a bit cynical when it comes to my expectations.
We'll have to see, but the resource problem you describe isn't too different to what happened in SWG. While the crafting system was great, crafters would not make items without using the very best resources available on the server, and combatants would generally only go to those crafters that had those resources to make the very best.
The problem with SWG's crafting system wasn't the crafting at all, it was that decay wasn't properly implimented. If decay was rapid enough to cause players to NEED to replace gear regularly, then players would have to way the benefits of using amazing gear, or stuff that was disposable. The only stuff that needed to be cycled was doctor buffs...and those frankly don't count.
One of the economic aspects of Eve Online that makes that game so successful is that when items break they're gone, and a similar principle could be implimented in a no space game. It doesn't have to be so draconian as Eve, but perhaps make it like warcraft..except that when you repair stuff, it permanantly loses effectiveness or durability. Make it so once you've repaired something 5 times...and it breaks again...it's just broken and unusable. Make it so that stuff can be salvaged for some of the materials, this would create a market for players to buy old broken gear, break it down into mats, and in turn sell that back to the crafters.
I agree that SWG"s crafting system has problems, and for that reason I'm not looking for a carbon copy, what I want is the next evolutionary step with that similar concept. If you had to replace the gun (or in Repop's case the components mounted to the gun) every 5 hours or so of grinding, you won't be using a super amazing piece of gear...you will use something that is disposable.
Look at early Ultima Online before Trammel and before the bless deeds came out...you wore basically what you weren't afraid to lose, you didn't run around with vanq swords all the time because once you lost them, bam they were gone. When you were running form place to place, you did it naked mile style.
I'm not suggesting they would need to go that draconian on you die and your stuff is gone, as that scares away a lot of players, and I'm not saying that we even should entertain the idea of full loot, as that scares away almost everyone but trolls and griefers. What I am saying is that if a proper decay system was implimented and combined with a crafting system that encouraged anything other than the mass producion of identical objects, the game would be much more appealing to gamers like me who have played MMO's from all different angles...and are looking for a crafter friendly one this time around.
There was decay in SWG but they progressively gave into those that complained about item decay until eventually it no longer existed. Originally, SWG even had corpse runs where if you hadn't insured your items you'd have to go back to where your corpse was and pickup your stuff if you wanted them back, however they got rid of that very early on (within the first month). Until the NGE hit, items would decay as you used them and would be accelerated with the use of abilities (I think, it's been a while...)- the only way to avoid decay on an item was to die in PvP or to equip the item with an Anti Decay Kit.
The crucial thing missing was a reliable way to repair damaged items. I'm not sure if you played, but there were repair kits but 99.9% of the time they made the item worse. Had they fixed those up and made them actually work then I think the complaints about decay would have been allot less.
Did you see that The Repopulation will have meaningful decay?
Yea thats what I meant by lack of decay in SWG, what it progressed to rather than initially started. I remember carrying a few Vibroknuckles while soloing rancor missions. I honestly don't even remember ever using repair kits, although I quit before NGE when it was actually announced they were going themepark.
Having Repair kits that make an items worse are the ONLY way to guarantee replacement of items, and while I don't necessarily believe that damage stats should drop on a repaired item (or resistances on armor) I do feel that the durability should permanantly drop. Give each item a handful of good repairs before it's junk.
And I did see that on Repop...I'm just very concerned by the crafting system they have described, it seems overly simply, perhaps one step more complicated than Blizzard's system, and as a crafter that is troubling because that's not fun.
then wait it out for Archage, besides that, sandbox is a quite dark path. Its a nitch style, and doesnt get to much attention.
R.I.P - SWG
I don't think DF is a true Sandbox game. It is a skill based yes but some of important Sandbox elements are missing. It would need more player freedom building cities, players houses, crows, mines, where players want not predetermined places. Houses should be more decorable. Cities and villages and even player houses should give a controll area which would produce higher amount of materia and other bonuses for their controllers. Armors and clothes should be dyeble and you should be able to wear some garments above armor. There is more but that was a fast cap of my 2 cents...
Also R.I.P. pre cu SWG
It's not a sandbox because it doesn't fit your extremely narrow description of a sandbox? Name one sandbox game that lets you do all the thing syou asked for. SWG was the only one I can think of. So you can't name that one.
My clan just returned to darkfall and we're having a great time. The population is scarce, but we have brought in over 30 players this week alone with more on the way.
Ok you feel my description of Sandbox is extremely narrow. I'd say my list of things that should be in Sandbox game is pretty wide thats why Darkfall isn't "true Sandbox" in my opinion. It has: huge open world, skillbased system etc but it needs more sand in its box. Mortal Online is much more Sandboxy than Darkfall, even with its shitty old school UI, and especially after Awakenings patch hits in (in a year or two : ). And what is this nonsense that I can't name SWG as Sandbox because you did it before me?
I get the feeling you get irritated because I criticise DF. I played it over 18 months and had a blast+ton of fun with it. But I can still look at it pretty objectively and say it lacks huge amount of important Sandbox elements.
What sandbox games have you already played? There are quite a few out there. The most popular one is EVE, and I'll let someone else describe that, as I haven't had much experience with it.
Played: SWG, SWG:NGE, EQ2, Vanguard, LotRO, WoW, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, Dark Age of Camelot, Mortal Online, Rift, Guild Wars, Fallen Earth, EVE Online, Ryzom, Dungeons and Dragons Online, World of Tanks, Aion, Star Wars: The Old Republic, Guild Wars 2
I am not sure if it would be your cup of tea but it has some pretty nice features like:
All in game currency has to be crafted from ore
FFA pvp no full loot
4 nations to choose from that have constant political differences and wars.
each nation has a governor (who is a player) that the citizens elect along with his cabinet.
The only player housing you get unfortunately is called a haven bag which can be placed down almost anywhere and can be expanded by finding haven gems.
Each zone has an eco system that is player controled
etc..
If you don't like the art style and can get past it, its a pretty unique little title.
Oh and one other thing, People may call it a P2W cash shop but its far from it. In reality they sell a few weapons you can buy but these weapons are only good if you lvl them to 100 which takes a very long time. So for the most part weapons you can craft are better then them. It also only costs $6 a month.
This thread is based on a false assumption. At the time of writing there are 14 different types of metals in The Repopulation. And each of those metals has the aforementioned quality grades. Similar to SWG recipes call for a type of ingredient such as Metals. The type of Metal can create a different result, and each of those results can have different qualities.
I've played nearly any game tagged as a sandbox which isn't FFA PvP or full loot.
I actually play Eve Online, but although it is fun (being in a nulsec corp) It's not what I would consider a super rewarding experience. I have a couple pilots on 2 accounts, one who is a carrier ratter so I can use PLEX for game time, and the other is a capital crafter...I don't know, I'm just starting to get bored with the whole system...
Comments
I'm not gonna be playing it just for the pvp, I enjoy the fact that you'll be able to craft and build everything. I just imagine having friends and allies will go a long way at keeping what you build safe. That just sounds exciting to me, I understand what you're saying though.
Oh and the graphics might not be that great but it still beats minecraft's blockiness graphics. I'm just ready for a game that has fun gameplay, I'm starting to not care so much about graphics anymore.
Well let me know how it goes maybe you can convince me one day to hop on board. I miss sandbox play so much I'm might be willing to over look perma death if the game play is a lot of fun.
Unless you are part of a town with guards and stuff which imo is what makes the community.
Post by Trixie in the Repop Gameplay forum
At this point, there is no plan to have the many different 'stats' for each resource that SWG did. BUT, each resource is going to have up to 5 different quality levels, and the quality of the end product is based on the quality of the lowest item. (kind of like the weakest link)
Also, you're not going to have fifteen different types of steel, you will have 'steel' with its quality levels. On the other hand, if you are making a dagger then you won't be required to use 'steel' you can use 'iron' or 'ore' or (I believe, but not 100% sure) several other main ingredients. If you put in iron, you get an iron dagger that is one thing, if you put in steel, you get a steel dagger with slightly different base stats.
The complexity of SWG crafting was based on having harvesters dropped everywhere in the world to get the 'best' spawn. Harvesters gathered many more times the amount that a single person could (even if you macro'd it). In Repop, harvesters will be a city structure, they will gather less than what a person can, and they will have 0 chance to get a surprise random high quality resource the way gathering yourself will.
Also, the spawns themselves are set up completely different. Instead of a static, timed spawn that people drop harvesters on and came back a week later, most of the resource gathering is going to be by exploring and doing it by yourself.
We were asking about how crafters materials would be, and if the crafting system allowed for people to differentiate themselves from one another, and she described a crafting system where a crafter would have the ability to swap out each of the requried base types, and that the overall quality of the item would be determined by the "level" of it's parts. However with only 6 distinct possibilities for materials...within a month of game release, we will see a situation where nobody would buy anything not made with all T6 materials. Having a game without levels means the gear isn't gated as in traditional games, and so anything other than the best stuff (seeing as how there are only 6 ypes of each mat) will be useless. This is one of the VERY few drawbacks to a level-less system IMHO.
It just made me finally accept that what I'm looking for in a game doesn't seem to exist, and thats sad because when I ask other dedicated crafters on forums it seems like a fairly common consensus that our "optimal" system could be implimented, but it never is.
Oh well, only time will tell, Repop is still very early in development, maybe I'm misunderstanding the crafting system (I REALLY hope I am) or maybe it will change with time.
I guess with a string of horrible releases...I'm a bit cynical when it comes to my expectations.
They are preparing Awakening patch which is supposed to overhaul UI + other major features in Mortal Online. We'll see how that comes out, sadly small indie companies seem to take ages to bring these to daylight...
source?
Post by Trixie in the Repop Gameplay forum
At this point, there is no plan to have the many different 'stats' for each resource that SWG did. BUT, each resource is going to have up to 5 different quality levels, and the quality of the end product is based on the quality of the lowest item. (kind of like the weakest link)
Also, you're not going to have fifteen different types of steel, you will have 'steel' with its quality levels. On the other hand, if you are making a dagger then you won't be required to use 'steel' you can use 'iron' or 'ore' or (I believe, but not 100% sure) several other main ingredients. If you put in iron, you get an iron dagger that is one thing, if you put in steel, you get a steel dagger with slightly different base stats.
The complexity of SWG crafting was based on having harvesters dropped everywhere in the world to get the 'best' spawn. Harvesters gathered many more times the amount that a single person could (even if you macro'd it). In Repop, harvesters will be a city structure, they will gather less than what a person can, and they will have 0 chance to get a surprise random high quality resource the way gathering yourself will.
Also, the spawns themselves are set up completely different. Instead of a static, timed spawn that people drop harvesters on and came back a week later, most of the resource gathering is going to be by exploring and doing it by yourself.
We were asking about how crafters materials would be, and if the crafting system allowed for people to differentiate themselves from one another, and she described a crafting system where a crafter would have the ability to swap out each of the requried base types, and that the overall quality of the item would be determined by the "level" of it's parts. However with only 6 distinct possibilities for materials...within a month of game release, we will see a situation where nobody would buy anything not made with all T6 materials. Having a game without levels means the gear isn't gated as in traditional games, and so anything other than the best stuff (seeing as how there are only 6 ypes of each mat) will be useless. This is one of the VERY few drawbacks to a level-less system IMHO.
It just made me finally accept that what I'm looking for in a game doesn't seem to exist, and thats sad because when I ask other dedicated crafters on forums it seems like a fairly common consensus that our "optimal" system could be implimented, but it never is.
Oh well, only time will tell, Repop is still very early in development, maybe I'm misunderstanding the crafting system (I REALLY hope I am) or maybe it will change with time.
I guess with a string of horrible releases...I'm a bit cynical when it comes to my expectations.
hmm. well before throwing the baby out with the bathwater, maybe we should give the devs a chance to even make it into closed alpha testing? just sayin
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
You could always give Craft of Gods a try. It has a vast world to explore,tons of crafting and I think a RvR system. The skill trees can be mixed also, giving you the freedom to play your character how you want to. Haven't given this too much of a try myself, but the short time I did play it kind of reminded me of early EQ and I enjoyed it
Honestly, I REALLY hope that I'm wrong, as so far the Repop seems like the closest thing to what I'm looking for. I wish that ArcheAge would allow NA players into the beta...
ArcheAge doesn't have a crafting system remotely close to SWG. Just letting you know since that seems to be a deal breaker for you.
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
For now, for the Ultimate Sandbox, play Darkfall,
then wait it out for Archage, besides that, sandbox is a quite dark path. Its a nitch style, and doesnt get to much attention.
R.I.P - SWG
We'll have to see, but the resource problem you describe isn't too different to what happened in SWG. While the crafting system was great, crafters would not make items without using the very best resources available on the server, and combatants would generally only go to those crafters that had those resources to make the very best.
Obraik, a blast from the past
The problem with SWG's crafting system wasn't the crafting at all, it was that decay wasn't properly implimented. If decay was rapid enough to cause players to NEED to replace gear regularly, then players would have to way the benefits of using amazing gear, or stuff that was disposable. The only stuff that needed to be cycled was doctor buffs...and those frankly don't count.
One of the economic aspects of Eve Online that makes that game so successful is that when items break they're gone, and a similar principle could be implimented in a no space game. It doesn't have to be so draconian as Eve, but perhaps make it like warcraft..except that when you repair stuff, it permanantly loses effectiveness or durability. Make it so once you've repaired something 5 times...and it breaks again...it's just broken and unusable. Make it so that stuff can be salvaged for some of the materials, this would create a market for players to buy old broken gear, break it down into mats, and in turn sell that back to the crafters.
I agree that SWG"s crafting system has problems, and for that reason I'm not looking for a carbon copy, what I want is the next evolutionary step with that similar concept. If you had to replace the gun (or in Repop's case the components mounted to the gun) every 5 hours or so of grinding, you won't be using a super amazing piece of gear...you will use something that is disposable.
Look at early Ultima Online before Trammel and before the bless deeds came out...you wore basically what you weren't afraid to lose, you didn't run around with vanq swords all the time because once you lost them, bam they were gone. When you were running form place to place, you did it naked mile style.
I'm not suggesting they would need to go that draconian on you die and your stuff is gone, as that scares away a lot of players, and I'm not saying that we even should entertain the idea of full loot, as that scares away almost everyone but trolls and griefers. What I am saying is that if a proper decay system was implimented and combined with a crafting system that encouraged anything other than the mass producion of identical objects, the game would be much more appealing to gamers like me who have played MMO's from all different angles...and are looking for a crafter friendly one this time around.
First: thank you for this thread! I agree with almost all of the points made on some level. It has been pleasant to read from the first page on because of the well thought out ideas and lack of trolls. So thank you to everyone!
I'd hardly say full-loot is only for "trolls" or "griefers." I just feel "without risk there is no reward" proverb. I don't feel any thrill what-so-ever in modern mmo's. UO would get my heart pounding because I knew I legitimately stood to lose something valuable if I did something stupid. In fact, I would argue that full-loot has the exact opposite effect of your point: that for the most part it keeps away trolls and griefers because their existence is based off a game perpetuating the allowance of their stupid behavior; full loot keeps idiots at bay.
I'm not saying my logic is flawless. There are always exceptions but the idiots can't take the full loot for long in general. The other major plus for full-loot is that when combined with a good crafting system and a lack of uber loot drops it really creates a strong demand for crafters in a game. I think full-loot has to be carefully implemented in an exceptionally well-balanced game though. But, when I think full-loot I think pre-t2a UO and when I think pre-t2a UO I think the best MMO I've ever played and have never found a replacement.
I don't think DF is a true Sandbox game. It is a skill based yes but some of important Sandbox elements are missing. It would need more player freedom building cities, players houses, crows, mines, where players want not predetermined places. Houses should be more decorable. Cities and villages and even player houses should give a controll area which would produce higher amount of materia and other bonuses for their controllers. Armors and clothes should be dyeble and you should be able to wear some garments above armor. There is more but that was a fast cap of my 2 cents...
Also R.I.P. pre cu SWG
There was decay in SWG but they progressively gave into those that complained about item decay until eventually it no longer existed. Originally, SWG even had corpse runs where if you hadn't insured your items you'd have to go back to where your corpse was and pickup your stuff if you wanted them back, however they got rid of that very early on (within the first month). Until the NGE hit, items would decay as you used them and would be accelerated with the use of abilities (I think, it's been a while...)- the only way to avoid decay on an item was to die in PvP or to equip the item with an Anti Decay Kit.
The crucial thing missing was a reliable way to repair damaged items. I'm not sure if you played, but there were repair kits but 99.9% of the time they made the item worse. Had they fixed those up and made them actually work then I think the complaints about decay would have been allot less.
Did you see that The Repopulation will have meaningful decay?
It's not a sandbox because it doesn't fit your extremely narrow description of a sandbox? Name one sandbox game that lets you do all the thing syou asked for. SWG was the only one I can think of. So you can't name that one.
My clan just returned to darkfall and we're having a great time. The population is scarce, but we have brought in over 30 players this week alone with more on the way.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Yea thats what I meant by lack of decay in SWG, what it progressed to rather than initially started. I remember carrying a few Vibroknuckles while soloing rancor missions. I honestly don't even remember ever using repair kits, although I quit before NGE when it was actually announced they were going themepark.
Having Repair kits that make an items worse are the ONLY way to guarantee replacement of items, and while I don't necessarily believe that damage stats should drop on a repaired item (or resistances on armor) I do feel that the durability should permanantly drop. Give each item a handful of good repairs before it's junk.
And I did see that on Repop...I'm just very concerned by the crafting system they have described, it seems overly simply, perhaps one step more complicated than Blizzard's system, and as a crafter that is troubling because that's not fun.
Ok you feel my description of Sandbox is extremely narrow. I'd say my list of things that should be in Sandbox game is pretty wide thats why Darkfall isn't "true Sandbox" in my opinion. It has: huge open world, skillbased system etc but it needs more sand in its box. Mortal Online is much more Sandboxy than Darkfall, even with its shitty old school UI, and especially after Awakenings patch hits in (in a year or two : ). And what is this nonsense that I can't name SWG as Sandbox because you did it before me?
I get the feeling you get irritated because I criticise DF. I played it over 18 months and had a blast+ton of fun with it. But I can still look at it pretty objectively and say it lacks huge amount of important Sandbox elements.
Many will say...stop looking.It's just a waste of time given the lack of creativity by those who make the gaming direction decisions today.
What sandbox games have you already played? There are quite a few out there. The most popular one is EVE, and I'll let someone else describe that, as I haven't had much experience with it.
Played: SWG, SWG:NGE, EQ2, Vanguard, LotRO, WoW, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, Dark Age of Camelot, Mortal Online, Rift, Guild Wars, Fallen Earth, EVE Online, Ryzom, Dungeons and Dragons Online, World of Tanks, Aion, Star Wars: The Old Republic, Guild Wars 2
Uncharted water online (my fav sandbox)
Mabinogi
Wurm online
Istaria
Anarchy Online
Eve Online
Tales of the desert
take ur pick
Could try out Wakfu http://www.wakfu.com/na/mmorpg
I am not sure if it would be your cup of tea but it has some pretty nice features like:
All in game currency has to be crafted from ore
FFA pvp no full loot
4 nations to choose from that have constant political differences and wars.
each nation has a governor (who is a player) that the citizens elect along with his cabinet.
The only player housing you get unfortunately is called a haven bag which can be placed down almost anywhere and can be expanded by finding haven gems.
Each zone has an eco system that is player controled
etc..
If you don't like the art style and can get past it, its a pretty unique little title.
Oh and one other thing, People may call it a P2W cash shop but its far from it. In reality they sell a few weapons you can buy but these weapons are only good if you lvl them to 100 which takes a very long time. So for the most part weapons you can craft are better then them. It also only costs $6 a month.
This thread is based on a false assumption. At the time of writing there are 14 different types of metals in The Repopulation. And each of those metals has the aforementioned quality grades. Similar to SWG recipes call for a type of ingredient such as Metals. The type of Metal can create a different result, and each of those results can have different qualities.
https://www.therepopulation.com - Sci Fi Sandbox.
@Delimeat
I've played nearly any game tagged as a sandbox which isn't FFA PvP or full loot.
I actually play Eve Online, but although it is fun (being in a nulsec corp) It's not what I would consider a super rewarding experience. I have a couple pilots on 2 accounts, one who is a carrier ratter so I can use PLEX for game time, and the other is a capital crafter...I don't know, I'm just starting to get bored with the whole system...