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No more sidekicking up?

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  • sonoggisonoggi tdot, ONPosts: 1,119Member

    great decision. sidekicking up didnt make sense. takes away the epicness of the encounter.

  • ZzadZzad Palma de MallorcaPosts: 1,316Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Serelisk

    Originally posted by Zzad

    I simply love it !

    You can still feel the thrill of leveling up!

    but you can go back & still be challenging.

    nuff said-

    I don't get it.

    I mean, I still think there's a thrill in leveling up because you gain access to skills and traits to customize your character with actual leveling, but as I see it with DE's, there are now large restrictions on the amount of content available for you and your friends to play together and still mutually benefit from

    It was like that in Guild Wars & i´m fine with it.

    In Guild Wars you couldn´t run "Kanaxai" or "Urgoz" at lvl 3...................

    Beeing able to kill the biggest Dragon in GW2 at level 1  just doesn´t feel right to me....

    kudos to Anet.

  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by colddog04

    I personally prefer it without sidekicking up. And I like that you can sidekick down.

    im happy with the current design too

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,481Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Serelisk

    EU Fan Day QA

    We had a chance to try the game and noticed that the side kicking system didn’t work inside instances. We were wondering if you are going to confirm this or if in the future or in the release there is a side kicking system inside instances or dungeons?

    Colin Johanson: There is side kicking in all of dungeons in the game. Each dungeon whether it is a story dungeon or an explorable dungeon has a correlated level that your character gets side kicked down to if you are over the level of the dungeon, but we do not sidekick you up to the level of the dungeon. So to do any of the dungeons in the game you need to get be high enough level to participate in it and then if you go over level for it, we’ll side kick you down to keep it challenging and fun for you. So for example the Ascalon Catacombs story dungeon is a level 30 and if you get up to say, level 38 we’ll side kick you down to the level of the dungeon so you can keep playing it with everyone and have it be fun and challenging for you.

    Eric Flannum: One thing to note is that, earlier we talked about how we were going allow players to sidekick up in level we actually don’t have that functionality in the game and the reason we don’t have it is because when we were going through the game we thought one of the really important moments in the game was kind of that moment where you ran into something and you weren’t quite powerful enough to overcome it, or skilled enough to overcome it, and we wanted to give people the ability to kind of be able to build their character in such a way that you could by those moments instead of just bypassing them by getting artificially side kicked up a level. And so we don’t have side kicking up anymore in the game anymore except for in WvW. So if you want to think of how our dynamic level adjustment works is that it automatically happens downwards in PvE and automatically happens upwards in WvW. And competitive PvP obviously you get set to equal level everybody. So that’s kind of how that works now.

     

    While some may not have known about this feature, as highlighted in this thread over at Guild Wars 2 Guru, there was, at some point, a feature planned where players would be able to have a higher level character sidekick them up to their level. This was supposed to be similar to systems in other games like CoH. They would still retain all their original traits, gear, and skills like in WvWvW. There would just be a base increase of stats so they could play with their friends in higher level PvE content.

    I'm actually really disappointed that this feature is no longer in the game's PvE. My understanding was that their vision for the game would include a lot of focus on being able to play with your friends. Now, obviously, I expected their to be SOME restrictions to this (like sidekicking up and doing dungeons would have been limited somehow) but it was my idea that the sidekicking up half of this feature for PvE had everything to do with them wanting to play together. Players can obviously still play together through auto scaling to lower leveling content, but this significantly limits the amount of content players can experience together at any given moment.

    Now, instead of a level 30 being able to sidekick up to level 60 content with their level 60 friend because they found an awesome event they wanted to experience with their friend, the level 30 now has to work through 30 levels in order to play with their friends, assuming they stayed the same level. While this may sound logical to some, who would refer to there being "no point in levels at all" if it were like that, I'd argue that Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2, from my perspective, were never truly about levels. Vertical progression seemed like a very limited and unimportant theme with the games. And Guild Wars 2 would still have points to levels, because you playing that higher leveled character through sidekicking would actually prove to be very challenging since you'd be without a lot of utility that true players of that level would likely have. And utility is ultimately an integral part of the game's combat. That's what the build system is based off.

    Also, I intentionally referred to these understandings as completely belonging to my own concieved notions of the game so I wouldn't come across as thinking that my possibly skewed perception is the fault of Arena Net for not living up to my ideals. However, I don't think i'm alone in thinking that this goes against one of ArenaNet's core phoilosophies for gameplay, which is that there should be very few barriers for friends to play together, and there are things ArenaNet was willing to sacrifice in order for this to be achieved.

    I guess not though. Thoughts?

     

    p.s. I thought there would be a thread on this, but I didn't see any when I searched. So if there is, then oh well~

    I am going to say that it is SIMILAR which is different from IDENTICAL.  I understand you are extremely upset about this but if you calm down you will see this isn't a bad thing. To put it in perspective imagine no sidekicking at all.

  • Bad.dogBad.dog Belleville, ONPosts: 1,108Member

    Originally posted by Serelisk

    Originally posted by Zzad

    I simply love it !

    You can still feel the thrill of leveling up!

    but you can go back & still be challenging.

    nuff said-

    I don't get it.

    I mean, I still think there's a thrill in leveling up because you gain access to skills and traits to customize your character with actual leveling, but as I see it with DE's, there are now large restrictions on the amount of content available for you and your friends to play together and still mutually benefit from

    I don't get it ...that you don't get it .It appears that most people who have posted here aren't interested in being sidekicked up for a number of different reason , but I have no clue why you would think you and your friends can't mutually benefit  from playing together ?

  • SereliskSerelisk somewhere, NYPosts: 836Member

    Originally posted by Zzad

    Originally posted by Serelisk


    Originally posted by Zzad

    I simply love it !

    You can still feel the thrill of leveling up!

    but you can go back & still be challenging.

    nuff said-

    I don't get it.

    I mean, I still think there's a thrill in leveling up because you gain access to skills and traits to customize your character with actual leveling, but as I see it with DE's, there are now large restrictions on the amount of content available for you and your friends to play together and still mutually benefit from

    It was like that in Guild Wars & i´m fine with it.

    In Guild Wars you couldn´t run "Kanaxai" or "Urgoz" at lvl 3...................

    This doesn't make sense and was virtually a non-issue because...

    1.) leveling from 1-20 in GW1 was NOT hard to do and could be completed in days. It served more as a tutorial. The game effectively started at level 20. The majority of the content was designed for level 20's. There also wasn't the technology in GW1 that supported scaling. There was just a hard mode version of content. And you could run those dungeons at any point the moment you hit level 20. However, you would be silly to do so as you likely wouldn't have the appropriate item customization on your gear or specific skills needed to do so.

    Also, I already said that the dungeon aspect could've been circumvented by just not allowing upscaling in dungeons.

    2.) I'm pretty confident in my understanding that a very major design philosophy Arena Net wanted to go with is removing many of the barriers that prevented people from playing together. Something that was never really an issue in GW1 because if you couldnb't be bothered to spend the very small amount of time it took to level to 20, then you weren't actually giving the system a chance. It takes considerably longer to gain levels in GW2 and as such is a very large barrier when people want to play together.

  • SereliskSerelisk somewhere, NYPosts: 836Member

    Originally posted by Baddogbill

    Originally posted by Serelisk


    Originally posted by Zzad

    I simply love it !

    You can still feel the thrill of leveling up!

    but you can go back & still be challenging.

    nuff said-

    I don't get it.

    I mean, I still think there's a thrill in leveling up because you gain access to skills and traits to customize your character with actual leveling, but as I see it with DE's, there are now large restrictions on the amount of content available for you and your friends to play together and still mutually benefit from

    I don't get it ...that you don't get it .It appears that most people who have posted here aren't interested in being sidekicked up for a number of different reason , but I have no clue why you would think you and your friends can't mutually benefit  from playing together ?

    I never said that o.o They can when downscaling, but they also could with upscaling. Since there's no upscaling, there is significantly LESS opportunity for players to do so.

  • Vore_TechzVore_Techz Kitchener, ONPosts: 122Member

    I'm glad they are not letting people side-kick up levels. It would ruin the game. Especially if they make a dungeon finder and you are doing high level explorable dungeons and you get stuck with a low level group with crappy gear and no skills.

    That would be highly frustrating.

    And people side-kicking up to level 80 content from low levels would also be dumb. By the time they were high level they would have already done all of the content and would have little to nothing to look forward to. The exciting part of leveling up is to see what opens up for you each level whether it is a new skill, a new zone, a new dungeon or a new chain of events.

    I'm all for the side-kicking system but only when you side-kick down in levels.

    (>^_^)> MMO Veteran <(^_^<)
    Currently Playing: Tera Online

  • FlawSGIFlawSGI Woodstock, GAPosts: 1,379Member Uncommon

    Well I never planned to use the sidekicking to move upwards so I can't say that this bothers me int he slightest. I love the scaling but being able to move freely both ways kinda made the levels actually meaningless for the most part. I do try to keep in mind that a lot of the system tweaks are happening and things are always subject to change for the betterment of their game so even this isn't final. I am not sure why someone would want to skip content even on an alt to jump ahead other than playing with a buddy, but this can still be handled by doing lower content with them so I dont think this is going to affect my gameplay. Thanx for the info.

    RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.

  • headphonesheadphones melbournePosts: 611Member

    i'm happy enough not to sidekick up. i think it's sensible.

  • illeriller Aspen''s 4th hole, COPosts: 510Member

    Originally posted by Serelisk

    Originally posted by Kaneth

    I'm ok with it. You still get sidekicked up for PvP which is an important feature for V8 (or W3) to work. On the PvE side, getting downkicked is more beneficial than the reverse, especially in terms of skills and abilities. Honestly, I like having more options for reusing previous content (sidekick down) content, rather than allowing folks to skip a significant portion of the game.

    There would be no skipping though. And these two systems are in no way mutually exclusive. Both were supposed to exist so that there would be very few barriers for people to play together.

    People keep talking about "skipping" content, but this is alarming to me because it calls into question the actual design of the game and how people are understanding it versus what I understand of it. Dynamic events are not ways to get to 80. They're certainly good for leveling, and getting those utilities mentioned in the OP, but leveling was, as I understood it, supposed to be largely irrelevant. 

     

    Yeah it was a nice thought while it lasted.  Level didn't matter much in GW1 so long as ya got your 30 Bonus Attribute points ahead of hitting 20.  But I guess enough traditional MMO'ers complained about that dynamic that Anet decided to compromise a bit.

  • SereliskSerelisk somewhere, NYPosts: 836Member

    Originally posted by FlawSGI

    Well I never planned to use the sidekicking to move upwards so I can't say that this bothers me int he slightest. I love the scaling but being able to move freely both ways kinda made the levels actually meaningless for the most part. I do try to keep in mind that a lot of the system tweaks are happening and things are always subject to change for the betterment of their game so even this isn't final. I am not sure why someone would want to skip content even on an alt to jump ahead other than playing with a buddy, but this can still be handled by doing lower content with them so I dont think this is going to affect my gameplay. Thanx for the info.

    Thanks for your explanation of your thoughts on the matter. I wasn't actually planning on using this either, unless it does happen that a higher level player wants me to come level with them and I'm lower level. I really like having the options for playing with my friends, and this severely restricts them.

    No one has really offered me an explanation why this would break the game or hamper their own gameplay experiences specifically for PvE content excluding dungeons, something I talked about in the OP. It really sucks to me that this is no longer in the game, but I guess I'll just have to deal with it.

    I would still like people to explain really why they feel the way they do about this.

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member

    I have always preferred mentoring down to sidekicking up. It makes more sense and works better, because higher level content should be designed around players with a certain amount of traits and skills available.

    Scaling down to areas to keep them fun and challenging is great too. Means more content to do at max level, rather than running around greyed out zones where you are invincible. In EQ2 it never made sense to me that all those undead mobs would just cower in fear because I am 10 levels higher than them, as if a skeleton magically bound to protect a crypt cares how powerful an intruder is (admittedly EQ2 also has a great mentoring and chronomentoring system, although it has been trivialised by gear since TSO).

    There are still many options for playing people that are a lower level than you. You can go help them out in areas suitable for them, or you can go participate in PvP with them.

  • illeriller Aspen''s 4th hole, COPosts: 510Member

    Umm Serelisk, I just offered you that explanation....

     

    It divides the population if you allow smurfs to get power-leveled in end-game areas with potentially unbalanced R-v-R mobs that can be exploited for faster XP when the leveling Curve math doesn't convert properly...

     

    This is not a subjective matter or victimless crime I'm pointing out here.  This is a mathematic Cancer on the population and City of Heroes, the ORIGINAL creator of the sidekick system, already established it as such.

  • RizelStarRizelStar Raleigh, NCPosts: 2,773Member

    Originally posted by Serelisk

    Originally posted by FlawSGI

    Well I never planned to use the sidekicking to move upwards so I can't say that this bothers me int he slightest. I love the scaling but being able to move freely both ways kinda made the levels actually meaningless for the most part. I do try to keep in mind that a lot of the system tweaks are happening and things are always subject to change for the betterment of their game so even this isn't final. I am not sure why someone would want to skip content even on an alt to jump ahead other than playing with a buddy, but this can still be handled by doing lower content with them so I dont think this is going to affect my gameplay. Thanx for the info.

    Thanks for your explanation of your thoughts on the matter. I wasn't actually planning on using this either, unless it does happen that a higher level player wants me to come level with them and I'm lower level. I really like having the options for playing with my friends, and this severely restricts them.

    No one has really offered me an explanation why this would break the game or hamper their own gameplay experiences specifically for PvE content excluding dungeons, something I talked about in the OP. It really sucks to me that this is no longer in the game, but I guess I'll just have to deal with it.

    I would still like people to explain really why they feel the way they do about this.

     I believe the best answer to your question is in the op you made, I could be wrong.

    They had one those moments where (It was good on paper and within the team) but as they beta tested, they prolly realised an big issue with it.

    I bet it had to do with loot you can get, by being sidekicked up.

    Well I'm about to go back and re read.

    I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

    I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

    P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

    Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  • cali59cali59 B, NYPosts: 1,634Member

    I don't know if I agree with their reasoning.  I agree with Serelisk that sidekicking up is more about playing with your friends regardless of location. 

    I don't really see it as being something where you have trouble with a particular encounter, find someone higher level to sidekick up with so you can try it again.  It seems like they're aware that the person you'd be sidekicking up to would be sidekicked down to the encounter so it would only buy you a level or a few.  It doesn't seem like they're taking into account that if you fail a particular encounter chances are it will have progressed to a new stage by the time you find someone to come sidekick with you. 

    Also, with the leveling curve being only 90 minutes, what's more likely?  That you're going to go back to town and rebuild specifically for that encounter, or that you're just going to gain a level on your own?  Probably you'll just go do other stuff and then coming back later to give it a try (probably specifically because you gained levels?).  Though I can see why that feeling of personal journey over the next 1.5, 3, or 4.5 hours might be more desireable than someone being able to just find a friend and push a button.

     

    I'm not too terribly disappointed to see it go, but I wouldn't mind seeing them revisit it in a modified form.  Maybe like was stated earlier, if you're in a party with 2-4 other people you can sidekick up to the lowest level of the rest of them, something to make it be much more clearly about bringing another player along on the adventure.  With instant teleportation back to lower level lands if the party breaks up, it's not like it would lead to a big inconvenience if someone has to leave.

     

    edit: regarding loot, as far as we know you get loot appropriate to your level in WvW when you sidekick up there.  It seems entirely reasonable that this would be the case in PVE as well.  Maybe there was some unforeseen difficulty, but I hope theyr'e just being honest that they didn't think it was a good idea.  I'm sure we all have aspects of the game that we'd do differently if it were up to us.

    "Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true – you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007

  • SereliskSerelisk somewhere, NYPosts: 836Member

    Originally posted by iller

    Umm Serelisk, I just offered you that explanation....

     

    It divides the population if you allow smurfs to get power-leveled in end-game areas with potentially unbalanced R-v-R mobs that can be exploited for faster XP when the leveling Curve math doesn't convert properly...

    The leveling curve is flat. So I don't understand what conversion needs to be taken into account. As well as this same issue being applicable for people leveling down.

    Potentially unbalanced RvR mobs? There's still upscaling in WvW to 80. o.o...

    Please be more explicit and clear in your definitions and analogies. I don't have experience with this system as it worked in EQ2 or CoH, but I'm confident in it's original intention for GW2. It was to allow friends to play together. 

  • Atlan99Atlan99 Calgary, ABPosts: 1,323Member

    Most games have buit in progression of some form. You start off fairly light then the enemies tend to get more numerous or bigger or some combination of the two. You also build up villians and enemies throughout a game. So when you finallyy kill the "Big Bad" you get a sense of accomplishment. Even movies tend to be like this.

    Sidekicking up would destroy any sense of progression and lessen any sense of accomplishment. Unless a game is built from the start around a different concept. If Guild Wars 2 started building their game like normal games they probably found that sidekicking up trivialized the later content of the game.

    Another thing that has also been mentioned is that it would cause gear issues unless they developed a whole new system of loot that was tied to your current level rather than content. Another case of probably ok if it was planned from the start but a major nuisance if discovered later in testing.

    Overall I understand the move and believe it was the right choice.

  • I understand the sentiment and agree its a valid concern since i probably would not sidekick up in a game like GW2, but why take a choice away from someone.   People are quite capable of making the choice themselves.

     

    In a game like City of Heroes sidekicking (and the reason its even called that) I wouldn't care since all that really changed is what villain group you went against.

    In GW2 I would want to get there on my own.  But I don't really think there is a reason to deny people the ability.

     

    Either way since I wouldn't have used it much its not much skin of my nose, but I don't think its a great reason to take something only not to work on it in the first place.

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member

    Originally posted by Serelisk

    I don't have experience with this system as it worked in EQ2 or CoH, but I'm confident in it's original intention for GW2. It was to allow friends to play together. 

    There are still plenty of ways to group together. Higher level players can go to lower level areas with friends, since it will remain challenging for them. Or they can all go PvP together.

    Its better if they dont scale low level players up, that way they can focus on making higher level dungeons challenging for people with the right amount of traits and skills unlocked.

  • itgrowlsitgrowls newport news, VAPosts: 2,951Member

    Originally posted by Serelisk

    Originally posted by Zzad

    I simply love it !

    You can still feel the thrill of leveling up!

    but you can go back & still be challenging.

    nuff said-

    I don't get it.

    I mean, I still think there's a thrill in leveling up because you gain access to skills and traits to customize your character with actual leveling, but as I see it with DE's, there are now large restrictions on the amount of content available for you and your friends to play together and still mutually benefit from

    actually no there's no restrictions on the content as most of it will be open world, ie if you leveled to 39 and your friend was still in a 21 zone you can go to your friend experience content you havent seen (as it will most likely be in an area different then the one you started in) and when they reach around the level you are they can go to your zone and continue. The idea that since only the dungeons will be restricted to the actual levels of the dungeons somehow keeps you from playing the whole game is something that is only whined about by people who really aren't paying attention to how things work in this game. Anet has literally thought of everything including, how to keep people from exploiting.

  • SereliskSerelisk somewhere, NYPosts: 836Member

    Originally posted by Atlan99

    Most games have buit in progression of some form. You start off fairly light then the enemies tend to get more numerous or bigger or some combination of the two. You also build up villians and enemies throughout a game. So when you finallyy kill the "Big Bad" you get a sense of accomplishment. Even movies tend to be like this.

    Sidekicking up would destroy any sense of progression and lessen any sense of accomplishment. Unless a game is built from the start around a different concept. If Guild Wars 2 started building their game like normal games they probably found that sidekicking up trivialized the later content of the game.

    Another thing that has also been mentioned is that it would cause gear issues unless they developed a whole new system of loot that was tied to your current level rather than content. Another case of probably ok if it was planned from the start but a major nuisance if discovered later in testing.

    Overall I understand the move and believe it was the right choice.

    But the thing is, Guild Wars 2 IS designed as a different type of game. The fact that sidekicking was planned to be in the game as early as downscaling is a testament to that. Dynamic events aren't the only way to gain levels. So the first problem would still exist if players just leveled via their personal story or they just leveled via WvWvW, two things Anet has repeatedly said is very possible. It was about giving players the freedom to play the way they want. if a low level player wants to play higher level content with his friend, he can no longer do so.

    Also, in WvWvW, there is a system where players receive loot that is specified to their level. The only problem with this applying to PvE, as I understand it, would be if there were fundamental technical difficulties with getting this system to translate into terms of PvE.

    I don't understand the issues with the upscaling system yet. People keep saying that it could've been because Arena Net unearthed a problem in the design implementation, but we don't actually know what that is and I'm not so much interested in why it's not in the game if we don't know why that is, rather, explicitly why people believe it shouldn't or should be in the game.

     

  • SereliskSerelisk somewhere, NYPosts: 836Member

    Originally posted by itgrowls

    Originally posted by Serelisk


    Originally posted by Zzad

    I simply love it !

    You can still feel the thrill of leveling up!

    but you can go back & still be challenging.

    nuff said-

    I don't get it.

    I mean, I still think there's a thrill in leveling up because you gain access to skills and traits to customize your character with actual leveling, but as I see it with DE's, there are now large restrictions on the amount of content available for you and your friends to play together and still mutually benefit from

    actually no there's no restrictions on the content as most of it will be open world, ie if you leveled to 39 and your friend was still in a 21 zone you can go to your friend experience content you havent seen (as it will most likely be in an area different then the one you started in) and when they reach around the level you are they can go to your zone and continue. The idea that since only the dungeons will be restricted to the actual levels of the dungeons somehow keeps you from playing the whole game is something that is only whined about by people who really aren't paying attention to how things work in this game. Anet has literally thought of everything including, how to keep people from exploiting.

    My problem is that the level 21 cannot go play with the level 39 when he wants to in the open world dynamic events now.

    I don't understand where your second point is coming from since I was mainly referring to the open world PvE.

    Also, what is exploitable about being able to be sidekicked up?

     

  • SereliskSerelisk somewhere, NYPosts: 836Member

    Originally posted by evilastro

    Originally posted by Serelisk

    I don't have experience with this system as it worked in EQ2 or CoH, but I'm confident in it's original intention for GW2. It was to allow friends to play together. 

    There are still plenty of ways to group together. Higher level players can go to lower level areas with friends, since it will remain challenging for them. Or they can all go PvP together.

    Its better if they dont scale low level players up, that way they can focus on making higher level dungeons challenging for people with the right amount of traits and skills unlocked.

    I've already addressed the dungeon part.

    The playing together aspect specifically refers to people not being able to play with their friends in dynamic events in the open world because the upscaling system no longer applies to that portion of PvE.

    I can't imagine it would be hard for them to design the system so that players can not apply upscaling to dungeons.

  • RizelStarRizelStar Raleigh, NCPosts: 2,773Member

    Alright so apparently they just want to ensure the game is challenging for everyone and won't be exploited lol.

     

    I mean that's pretty much just it, not really complex.

     

    I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

    I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

    P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

    Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

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