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Why does SWTOR think it's 2004?

virindi1virindi1 antelope, CAPosts: 80Member

TL;DR SWTOR is an extremely unpolished version of WOW with a storyline and voice overs. This game might be good if the year was 2004, not 2012. MMORPGs are pushing away from the theme park EQ model and into a whole new era marked by exploring new player-empowering systems, combat, pvp, and group story lines.



I see MMORPGS as having two eras according to game play:

1. The UO sandbox era (1997-1999).

2. The EQ, two faction, theme park era (2000-2011).



We are beginning a new era right now moving away from the theme park, tab to target before spamming 1-9, quest grinding, two faction instanced PVP, and limitations on player freedom. Example: The old mindset is to limit player freedom to solve issues. Players keep killing each other? BAN PLAYER KILLING! Players keep stealing from one other? BAN STEALING! Open world PVP is imbalanced? INSTANCE PVP! The new mindset is to empower players with the tools needed to solve their own problems. Players keep killing each other? Implement a player ran justice system! Players keep stealing from one another? Implement a detective class/skill and jails! Open world PVP is imbalanced? ADD ANOTHER FACTION!



SWTOR is a $100 million release at the very tail end of this close minded era, unwittingly failing to realize they released all the same things players have been experiencing in an MMO since 2004 (2001?) and a single player storyline that has been experience over and over since the early 1990s, one could argue even the 1980s.  



If SWTOR wanted to do something revolutionary to MMO's, they would have improved upon Asheron's Call group storyline and made their storyline involve both small groups of people and entire server populations. Instead SWTOR makes their storyline single player and clearly not anywhere near as good as Bioware's other single player games. Boring lonely storyline is boring and lonely.



SWTOR is WOW combat. Tab, target, push 1-9. Games are done with that and moving to new combat systems, mirroring FPS games. If you don't know what I mean by this, check out the combat in Darkfall Online, TERA, and Guild Wars 2. Once again, SWTOR built a combat system based entirely on WOW/2004 which is built from DAOC/2001. It's been eight-eleven years of this shit, we're done with tab target 1-9.



PVPers know what I mean by two faction PVP. It's been at the point where we've avoided games with only two factions since 2007. DAOC knew in 2001 that only two factions would lead to imbalanced open world PVP and proved so by adding three factions which concluded in extremely balanced open world PVP. WOW can never have open world PVP, RIFT cannot, SWTOR is trying with Illium, but on EVERY server it's always the faction with the higher population that rolls the lower population faction. WOW fucked this up in 2004 and have been paying dearly for their mistake, losing huge chunks of the PVP market. Don't even bring up Warhammer Online... You'd think SWTOR would know better in 2012 than to repeat this same mistake, especially since the PVP Dev head is the same ass clown who ruined Warhammer Online. "I've ruined two major MMO's PVP systems the same exact way now derpa derp derp derp." Other game developers who actually take five seconds to study PVP and how to implement both open world and instanced are realizing this and adding in three plus factions or none at all. Imagine Alterac Valley with three plus factions or just an open world battleground with players fighting for control points (forts, castles, towers) and you'll begin to realize what these idiot developers have been holding back from us.



SWTOR has the same class system as WOW. One class with three talent trees. Only thing different is that maybe in six-eight months they will change it so you can have a one time switch to a sister class. Yay!! Wonderful! The same... exact... shit. At least try something new. How about spending experience points on skills (Shadowbane 2003)? Or getting talents improved upon by how often that talent, ability, spell is used? The system is SWTOR is old and clunky, based on WOW 2004. At least WOW continues to improve their talent system. Cataclysm allowed players to get a custom spell/ability with each tree, though the trees were much too linear and apparently will be fixed with the Pandamania expansion.



SWTOR is wholly unpolished. No customizable UI even though it's 2012 (this is rumored to be changed with the upcoming patch, four months too late), instance encounters are bugged to hell/bosses getting stuck and script triggers failing to trigger, horrid auction house UI, being stuck with only one talent build, can't compare armor for companions with mouse over, have to regroup after queuing as a group for PVP, no instance finder (single server or multi-server), can't drag items onto your characters picture to equip (both in game sprite and picture on the inventory screen), etc. etc. The amount of polish lacking from SWTOR is absolutely disgusting.

 

I haven't even looked at the crafting system very much, maybe someone can fill in this for me. It seemed pretty shit all around though.



No world to explore, much like WOW. SWTOR is based on completing quests and the single player storyline and because of this, much like WOW, there is no world to explore. Players are just running from one quest to another. There's no point in exploring, no reward in being curious about what's behind the waterfall or where a cool monster spawn is at. You'd have to play Ultima Online, Minecraft, Darkfall Online, Mortal Online, or Shadowbane Online to really understand. And no, adding a few hidden datacrons is not enough.



New MMOs are abundant in 2012 trying out new systems, combats, open world and player empowering systems. Archage, DF2.0, Mortal Online keeps chugging along (probably needs to sell it to someone who cares about adding more coders), Guild Wars 2, Firefall, Planetside 2, etc. etc. It's the new era of MMOs and all SWTOR did was release a bunch of shit that we've all experience before, improving on nothing. A shit version of WOW, but with lightsabers and voices.





 

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Comments

  • DewmDewm Soldotna, AKPosts: 1,341Member

    ..So..many..words.

     

    TL;DR  he doesn't like SWTOR

     

    ...and now the fanbois an attack..

     

    ....GO!

    Please check out my channel. I do gaming reviews, gaming related reviews & lets plays. Thanks!

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    Short answer - they started making the game in 2006 and by the time the "trends" in MMORPG's actually started changing (maybe late 2008 early 2009) they had already invested too much in the design to up and completely change it?

    They said in 2008 when announced that they had something like 12 full time writers working on the game since 2006, which tells me the plan/design for the game was pretty much finalized by then.

  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Den HelderPosts: 9,064Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Short answer - they started making the game in 2006 and by the time the "trends" in MMORPG's actually started changing (maybe late 2008 early 2009) they had already invested too much in the design to up and completely change it?

     

    This..

     

    And for a 2004 game its really really good.

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • PyrateLVPyrateLV Las Vegas, NVPosts: 1,096Member Common

    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Short answer - they started making the game in 2006 and by the time the "trends" in MMORPG's actually started changing (maybe late 2008 early 2009) they had already invested too much in the design to up and completely change it?

     

    I cant buy that.

    Many other games have been developed AND released during that time and they arent as dated as SWTOR.

    Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
    Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
    Playing: Skyrim
    Following: The Repopulation
    I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
    ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)

  • raistlinmraistlinm new orleans, LAPosts: 673Member

    When you release the game with those new era features you are talking about make sure to advertise it here for us.

  • DewmDewm Soldotna, AKPosts: 1,341Member

    Originally posted by raistlinm

    When you release the game with those new era features you are talking about make sure to advertise it here for us.

     

     

    FFXIV...oh wait.. nvm 

    Please check out my channel. I do gaming reviews, gaming related reviews & lets plays. Thanks!

  • TerranahTerranah Stockton, CAPosts: 3,605Member

    Honestly I think they just screwed up.  There's no excuse for this game with a 100 to 200 million dollar budget.  

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,473Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by PyrateLV

    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Short answer - they started making the game in 2006 and by the time the "trends" in MMORPG's actually started changing (maybe late 2008 early 2009) they had already invested too much in the design to up and completely change it?

     

    I cant buy that.

    Many other games have been developed AND released during that time and they arent as dated as SWTOR.

    Bulletpoint which specific points you don't believe so people can correct you.

  • LucienReneLucienRene Dallas, TXPosts: 20Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Terranah

    Honestly I think they just screwed up.  There's no excuse for this game with a 100 to 200 million dollar budget.  

     This.

  • ElikalElikal ValhallaPosts: 8,063Member

    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Short answer - they started making the game in 2006 and by the time the "trends" in MMORPG's actually started changing (maybe late 2008 early 2009) they had already invested too much in the design to up and completely change it?

    They said in 2008 when announced that they had something like 12 full time writers working on the game since 2006, which tells me the plan/design for the game was pretty much finalized by then.

    Sadly, I think this is the most logical explanation. I read an article years ago, how many companies are mired by so called "cannonball decisions". Like firing a cannonball, once a decision is made, they never alter it, whatever may be.

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • BigHatLoganBigHatLogan Bellingham, WAPosts: 688Member

    Originally posted by Dewm

    ..So..many..words.

     

    TL;DR  he doesn't like SWTOR

     

    ...and now the fanbois an attack..

     

    ....GO!

    SWTOR still has fanbois? 

    I agree with a lot of what the OP says, except that he said the WoW clone themepark era was over.  While we have a lot of innovative MMORPG's slated for release, I'll believe it when I see it.  What we really need is for SWTOR to tank and tank hard.  If it becomes a total disaster economically no future developers will follow the WoW clone model.

    Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!
    image
    I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!

  • Mad+DogMad+Dog EdinburghPosts: 656Member Uncommon

    SWTOR is a $100 million release at the very tail end of this close minded era, unwittingly failing to realize they released all the same things players have been experiencing in an MMO since 2004 (2001?) and a single player storyline that has been experience over and over since the early 1990s, one could argue even the 1980s.

     

    This one paragraph from the OP is so spot on. It would have been a real good game back 2005 or 2006, but not now.

     

    Now its just another TAB target game, nothing more.

    image
  • raistlinmraistlinm new orleans, LAPosts: 673Member

    Originally posted by sullivanj69

    Originally posted by Dewm

    ..So..many..words.

     

    TL;DR  he doesn't like SWTOR

     

    ...and now the fanbois an attack..

     

    ....GO!

    SWTOR still has fanbois? 

    I agree with a lot of what the OP says, except that he said the WoW clone themepark era was over.  While we have a lot of innovative MMORPG's slated for release, I'll believe it when I see it.  What we really need is for SWTOR to tank and tank hard.  If it becomes a total disaster economically no future developers will follow the WoW clone model.

    I don't agree with the overall tone of your post but you are right about the op's declaration of the end of the themepark era.  Themeparks still hold mostof this market share when these games begin to release and actually succeed then we can talk about the start of a new era.

    As it stands now we just have a new crop of innovative mmos to fail hard like we haven't watched that happen to every other game in the last five years.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    Also, I think it is fair to point out that development for Guild Wars 2 was started back in 2007.

    Had that much really changed between 2006 when BW started TOR and 2007 when Anet started GW2?

    Completely different design philosophy - Anet sought to reinvent and question convention as early as 2007 before it became "the thing to do" to try and differential yourself from WoW.

    They can't predict the future of course, but it just so happens they ended up being right that 5-6 years down the road people wouldn't want to be playing World of Warcraft in a different setting anymore.

     

  • SyllendaleSyllendale Fayetteville, NCPosts: 159Member Uncommon

    There will always be something wrong with everything if you think about it, more so when it comes with games. Everyone has so many different opinions as to what makes a good game that their opinions sorta blot out the others. I bet you they could make a pill you take just once for your life and you will not only lose whatever weight you wanted but will keep you at your optimal size till you die..... but people would be like.. "Why is the pill so big, cant they make it smaller?".. 

     

  • Matticus75Matticus75 Posts: 396Member Uncommon

    I think the Tab-Target aspect will pretty much remain with MMORPGS, Im starting to see a trend away from that, MMOFPS games

     

     

  • PyrateLVPyrateLV Las Vegas, NVPosts: 1,096Member Common

    Originally posted by BadSpock

    They can't predict the future of course, but it just so happens they ended up being right that 5-6 years down the road people wouldn't want to be playing World of Warcraft in a different setting anymore.

     

    ANet might have had a bit of forsight. Though as for SWTOR I dont know how BW/EA, or any Game Dev company couldnt forsee that people wouldnt want to play WoW in a different setting after all these years.

    People like variety. Thats a no-brainer in business

    These Themeparks are like the standard fastfood burger joints

    MacDonalds, Jack-in-the-Box, Wendys, Sonic, Carls Jr (WoW, AoC, RIFT, AION, STO, SWTOR, etc)

    Sure each one is a bit different in menu options, but in the end they are still burger joints.

    Burger, Fries, Drink

    All these Game Companies now are so focused on trying to make the "better burger"

     

    What about the Quiznos, Jimmy Johns, Subways? Popeyes, KFC, Church's? Tacobell, El Pollo Loco, Del Taco?

     

    THINK OUTSIDE THE BUN!!!

    Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
    Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
    Playing: Skyrim
    Following: The Repopulation
    I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
    ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,453Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Short answer - they started making the game in 2006 and by the time the "trends" in MMORPG's actually started changing (maybe late 2008 early 2009) they had already invested too much in the design to up and completely change it?

     

    This..

     

    And for a 2004 game its really really good.

    "This" to Spock and "This" to you.

    Spot on.

  • ValkaernValkaern OxfordPosts: 512Member

    Originally posted by BadSpock

    They said in 2008 when announced that they had something like 12 full time writers working on the game since 2006, which tells me the plan/design for the game was pretty much finalized by then.

    Which is utterly pathetic considering that 6 years worth of what 12 writers produce equates to about 2-3 weeks of player story, unless you reach the end and start all over because there's nothing worthwhile remaining to pursue.

    You'd think at some point during a meeting someone might have mentioned that for a persistant online game, offering extremely limited personal stories as the gimmick that sets the rest of this generic cliche apart is a bit short sighted. 

    Although the 'We've already committed to rubbish, might as well see it through' explanation for the games lack of quality seems appropriate, especially considering they weren't out to design a game to please gamers, they cloned a game to please the suits.

    It's astounding that with such an obscene amount of funding, time, and a simple established design (WoW obviously) to immitate in every aspect but voice overs, they still came out the other end with something clunky and flawed. Forget the fact that it's uninspired, unimaginative, and offers a level of challenge suited to comatose 4 year olds, the fact that they couldn't get MMO Basics 101 right is astounding on it's own.

    Ah well, it's good to have a cautionary tale of MMOs at the zenith of mediocrity for future generations to learn from.

     

  • MardukkMardukk Posts: 1,556Member Uncommon

    Well OP, there will be more FPS MMO's however, that is not where all MMO's are going, hate to break it to you.

     

    SWTOR is an excellent game for 2004, I agree.  I'm not going into why it wasn't enough for 2012 but I think that we all know it should have been better.

  • LeetheLeethe Posts: 876Member Uncommon

    While the game is a good effort by Bioware, ToR is unique out of all MMOs I know of  for one reason: Its reach actually exceeds its vision. Most of the time a company will promise much but lack the capability to deliver. Bioware could have delivered on so much more but kept its eyes gazing firmly toward the mud.

    What I mean is that Bioware is a gaming powerhouse, like them or hate them. The sheer amount of money and staff they threw at the project was staggering. It is down to a complete misdirection by producers and directors that their creative vision looked no further down the road than the present example of their main competition. Bioware is in space and travelling at lightspeed. To them, they're steaming along but by the time they get there, everyone has aged except them. Meanwhile the competition are going straight to warp. 

    There is NO miracle patch.

    95% of what you see in beta won't change by launch.

    Hope is not a stategy.
    ______________________________
    "This kind of topic is like one of those little cartoon boxes held up by a stick on a string, with a piece of meat under it. In other words, bait."

  • RobsolfRobsolf Grand Rapids, MIPosts: 4,246Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Elikal

    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Short answer - they started making the game in 2006 and by the time the "trends" in MMORPG's actually started changing (maybe late 2008 early 2009) they had already invested too much in the design to up and completely change it?

    They said in 2008 when announced that they had something like 12 full time writers working on the game since 2006, which tells me the plan/design for the game was pretty much finalized by then.

    Sadly, I think this is the most logical explanation. I read an article years ago, how many companies are mired by so called "cannonball decisions". Like firing a cannonball, once a decision is made, they never alter it, whatever may be.

    Yep.  You can't spend alot of time rewriting everything.  Some things you can.  Others, you can't.  There's an important phrase in the world of selling stuff, particularly intellectual property:

    "You gotta ship."

    Spending more and more money/time gets to a point to where it's detrimental to the product. 

    All that said, it's as advanced in most MMO aspects as anything else that has launched in the past couple years, AT LAUNCH.  Some others have features it doesn't have, it has features others don't have.

     

  • WellzyCWellzyC Stillwater, MNPosts: 557Member Uncommon

     

    There's a solution to all these SWTOR woes.  

     

    *whispers in the OP's ear*     -stop giving EA money.

    The way mmo's were: Community, Exploration, Character Development, Conquest.

    The way mmo's are now : Cut-Scenes,Cut-Scenes, solo Questing, Cut-Scenes...


    www.CeaselessGuild.com

  • StonesDKStonesDK SomewherePosts: 1,805Member

    Originally posted by virindi1

    TL;DR SWTOR is an extremely unpolished version of WOW with a storyline and voice overs. This game might be good if the year was 2004, not 2012. MMORPGs are pushing away from the theme park EQ model and into a whole new era marked by exploring new player-empowering systems, combat, pvp, and group story lines.



    I see MMORPGS as having two eras according to game play:

    1. The UO sandbox era (1997-1999).

    2. The EQ, two faction, theme park era (2000-2011).


     

    Sorry but I have to nitpick a bit here

    EQ started in 99 and was infact a 4 faction system. Halflings, Dwarves, Gnomes/Trolls, Dark Elves, Ogres/Half Elves, Woodelves, Highelves/Humans, Barbarians, Erudites

    The fact that the players ignored the 4 factions is irrelevant. There were quite a few purist guilds that stuck to the server rules as intended

     

     

    Carry on with the pointless rant

  • buegurbuegur Belle Fourche, SDPosts: 458Member

    Although I prefer a more sandbox type of game such as SWG was, I don't see that Theme park type games are becoming a minority.  Using Darkfall as the example for good a good sandbox game is a big Fail in my opinion! I don't think most sandbox type players are looking for gank PvP atmosphere for their MMO cravings and the small populations on those type of games seem to confirm that fact.  Twitch combat also seems to be frenge affair with little popularity in the mainstream.

     

    "Mortal Online keeps chugging along (probably needs to sell it to someone who cares about adding more coders), Guild Wars 2, Firefall, Planetside 2, etc. etc.  ""    """"""

    I don't consider Planetside a real MMO but a 1st person shooter with depth.  I will definetly play it when it releases but it won't fill in for my MMO fix.  Guild Wars 2 isn't released yet and once again it is debatable if it is a real MMO, butuntil we see it, i can't use it as a shining example for others to follow.  Mortal Online doesn't have that much of a following so if thats the big game example of the future, not many game producers will follow.

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