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Is the MMO genre being blended into others, like what happened to RPGs?

tixylixtixylix gfff, TNPosts: 1,208Member Uncommon

We're seeing MMOs go from large open worlds like UO,SWG,EVE,EQ and WoW to smaller battleground and instance based like SWTOR and even what WoW has turned into today. The problem I have with that is now every new shooter or online games in general have character progression and even character customization such as hats in TF2. I slowly wonder why we pay a monthly fee for the latest MMOS when their "worlds" are instanced zoned up like crazy and they're now smaller than standard online games. SWTOR for example just has you standing in the fleet station and entering raids or battlegrounds which don't even have 32 people as most standard online games of today. 

I used to love the open world WoW had with all the large scale PVP and how the instances were built into the world which you had to travel and fight the enemy outside them. Yet all they've done since is kill off the world and just have people standing in cities and instant travelling to battlegrounds and instances. Like why am I paying a subscription for what isn't even an MMO anymore?

Now MMOs are becoming smaller and instanced are the lines between MMOs and other genres being blurred? We now have standard online games with 64 players, character progression and customization and offering larger scale gameplay than MMOs.

I personally don't class todays MMOs as MMOs and just see them as like Guild Wars or Diablo. However we're not getting these MMO worlds anymore like we once did, which is such a shame as I thought as tech evolved we'd just get bigger and less zoned/instanced. Everyone is claiming GW2 will change all this, but from all the gameplay videos and info, it's all instant travel everywhere, killing off the world already and you'll just be in battlegrounds.

 

humph... just hate it.

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Comments

  • NevulusNevulus Miami Beach, FLPosts: 1,288Member Uncommon

    Welcome to the new age of MMOs, where they are nothing but lobby games.

    No more exploration, no more vast open worlds, no more actual character progression. Like I called it years ago, we will one day be paying cash shops and subs for simple FPS games and single player RPGs

  • musicmannmusicmann port allen, LAPosts: 1,107Member

    Yes, i do believe the lines are being blurred. For some reason, huge open virtual world games have become the bane of the genre because the majority of players that play mmo's today came into the genre sometime in the WOW era. They simply scoff at the idea of having a game that has more things to do than just leveling, warzone pvp and raids. They think the most important social system is a LFG tool. They can't imagine having player interdepency systems that bring people together in a social atmosphere that doesn't deal with combat.

    MMORPG's today have become nothing more than SPRPG's with coop functions.

  • CaldrinCaldrin CwmbranPosts: 4,533Member Uncommon

    This is why i stick to games by indie companies...

    Sure you have more bugs to put up with but you usually get amazing game play and open worlds.. and you dont have to play a dumbed down pile of crap LOL

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    We need VWRPG virtual world RPG as a separate genre as MMORPG is a lost cause.
  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,975Member Uncommon

    I am not really sure how GW2 will be right now, at least most of the game isn´t instanced so it could be worse but fast travel really have it´s downsides. They should have just gone to fast travel between towns instead of everywhere.

    And yeah, it sucks that everyone is hanging in towns and waiting for fast travel to instances, stuff like dungeon finders have made it even worse.

    But as I see it is the overuse of instances the real problem here. Most of the players are not really in the game but at a personal instance for them and maybe their group.

    At least GW2 wont be so bad there, it is my hope that someone else will continue and evolve the ideas until we get something that have the massive feel the old games had. But GW2s use of DEs instead of quests actually have a huge potential of turning the MMOs more massive again. I hope it leads to a turning point where players and devs realie that MMOs are more fun the more players are around.

  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member

    inb4 ns and ah.

    I think that maybe the problem is that real mmorpgs or as we now have to call them VWRPGs never had a big enough audience. You had UO and SWG and EvE and that was it for anything with over 50k subs. And that means that you can't get a lot of variety. There is no way to support 10 actually different AAA VWRPGs.

    Aside from the 3 big games, you had ATITD, DF, WURM and MO, and maybe UWO and POTBS. ATITD, DF, and MO have either lots of bugs or really low quality graphics. WURM is similar. They also have small subscriber bases. UWO maybe be higher quality but it is far more themeparky. I am not sure about POTBS. And Vanguard, which had lots of bugs.

    Games like EQ, SWTOR, WoW, and Rift have far more subs per game than anything remotely VWRPG. So most VWRPGs are labors of love. Wurm, DF, MO, ATITD all are. SWG ceased to exist. EvE is actually really high quality, but low subs. And super time intensive plus all the griefing. UO isn't doing terribly, buts its hardly on par graphically with the others.

    Still I think that we can get plenty of AA VWRPGs out there. Especially with increasing middleware and libraries and stuff.

  • LarsaLarsa NurembergPosts: 990Member

    Originally posted by tixylix

    ... I slowly wonder why we pay a monthly fee for the latest MMOS when their "worlds" are instanced zoned up like crazy and they're now smaller than standard online games. ...

    I probably sound like a broken record, but there's only one way: just don't buy these games anymore.

    There are enough indie/sandbox/hybrid games around. Sure, they lack mass appeal, they lack features, they lack polish, they're not the latest flavour of the month, they lack graphics - but they are MMORPGs.

    I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.

  • BetaguyBetaguy Halifax, NSPosts: 2,590Member

    Most def!

    image

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,660Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by musicmann

    MMORPG's today have become nothing more than SPRPG's with coop functions.

    I think that's a fair assessment of manyof them but if that's what people are willing to pay money for, isn't that a good thing?

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • ZekiahZekiah Aurora, COPosts: 2,499Member

    Originally posted by RefMinor

    We need VWRPG virtual world RPG as a separate genre as MMORPG is a lost cause.

    Lol, nailed it.

    That dying genre can keep their linear-grinding, oversized-weapon weilding, hand-holding garbage and we'll take the good stuff with us.

    And no, we won't let the door hit us on the way out, we're taking that with us too. image

    "Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,660Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by RefMinor

    We need VWRPG virtual world RPG as a separate genre as MMORPG is a lost cause.

    I'm actually rather surpised that none has really picked up the old Origin/UO term of Persistent State World and run with it. It seems like a great term for sandbox-focused games that want to draw an audience looking for more than lobby-based content but aren't really looking for a Second Life or There experience.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member

    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    Originally posted by RefMinor

    We need VWRPG virtual world RPG as a separate genre as MMORPG is a lost cause.

    I'm actually rather surpised that none has really picked up the old Origin/UO term of Persistent State World and run with it. It seems like a great term for sandbox-focused games that want to draw an audience looking for more than lobby-based content but aren't really looking for a Second Life or There experience.

    Virtual World vs Persistent State World

     

    Which of those is easier to say and easier to conceptualize?

     

    VW.

    PSW is never gonna take off.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by tixylix

    We're seeing MMOs go from large open worlds like UO,SWG,EVE,EQ and WoW to smaller battleground and instance based like SWTOR and even what WoW has turned into today. The problem I have with that is now every new shooter or online games in general have character progression and even character customization such as hats in TF2. I slowly wonder why we pay a monthly fee for the latest MMOS when their "worlds" are instanced zoned up like crazy and they're now smaller than standard online games. SWTOR for example just has you standing in the fleet station and entering raids or battlegrounds which don't even have 32 people as most standard online games of today. 

    I used to love the open world WoW had with all the large scale PVP and how the instances were built into the world which you had to travel and fight the enemy outside them. Yet all they've done since is kill off the world and just have people standing in cities and instant travelling to battlegrounds and instances. Like why am I paying a subscription for what isn't even an MMO anymore?

    Now MMOs are becoming smaller and instanced are the lines between MMOs and other genres being blurred? We now have standard online games with 64 players, character progression and customization and offering larger scale gameplay than MMOs.

    I personally don't class todays MMOs as MMOs and just see them as like Guild Wars or Diablo. However we're not getting these MMO worlds anymore like we once did, which is such a shame as I thought as tech evolved we'd just get bigger and less zoned/instanced. Everyone is claiming GW2 will change all this, but from all the gameplay videos and info, it's all instant travel everywhere, killing off the world already and you'll just be in battlegrounds.

     

    humph... just hate it.

     

    1) Most of the MMOs are F2P, or have an extended trial anyway (even WOW you can play up to L20 for free). So there is no cause to complain about sub fees.

    2) Yes, that is the trend. Small group instanced content is the way to go. That suits RPG. The original table top RPG is never about a large virtual world. It is always about small group adventures. And MMOs are turning into small group co-op RPGs. In fact, the new Diablo 3 is probably going to be a beacon in this trend.

    3) It is not about technology. It is about game design. Small group instanced content is more convenient, less demanding, more assessible, and more importantly, captured the essence of RPGs, and progression. Thus, it is popular.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by RefMinor

    We need VWRPG virtual world RPG as a separate genre as MMORPG is a lost cause.

     

    It *is* already a different genre. Look at Second Life and Eve. Not a very popular genre, but a genre nevertheless.

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon


    Originally posted by RefMinor

    We need VWRPG virtual world RPG as a separate genre as MMORPG is a lost cause.

     

    It *is* already a different genre. Look at Second Life and Eve. Not a very popular genre, but a genre nevertheless.

     

    Second life isn't really a game, but it has 800k odd players, Eve is pushing 450k paid subscriptions, not exactly a small niche, second life will have more players than SWTOR in a couple of months time.

    Edit: I think only Aion and WoW (and maybe Tor) have a larger player base than second life.
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,660Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by RefMinor

    We need VWRPG virtual world RPG as a separate genre as MMORPG is a lost cause.

    It *is* already a different genre. Look at Second Life and Eve. Not a very popular genre, but a genre nevertheless.

    Valid point.  :)

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by RefMinor

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by RefMinor

    We need VWRPG virtual world RPG as a separate genre as MMORPG is a lost cause.

     

    It *is* already a different genre. Look at Second Life and Eve. Not a very popular genre, but a genre nevertheless.

     

    Second life isn't really a game, but it has 800k odd players, Eve is pushing 450k paid subscriptions, not exactly a small niche, second life will have more players than SWTOR in a couple of months time. Edit: I think only Aion and WoW (and maybe Tor) have a larger player base than second life.

    You need to count the F2P games some way too since the MMO market is going that way. Very few will hold onto sub like WOW and TOR.

    If you look at all the MMO players (which is like ~45M in the US), SL and Eve are pretty small.

    But the point is that there are VW games, though not many, no doubt a response to what the market likes and dislikes.

  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by RefMinor


    Originally posted by nariusseldon


    Originally posted by RefMinor

    We need VWRPG virtual world RPG as a separate genre as MMORPG is a lost cause.

     

    It *is* already a different genre. Look at Second Life and Eve. Not a very popular genre, but a genre nevertheless.

     

    Second life isn't really a game, but it has 800k odd players, Eve is pushing 450k paid subscriptions, not exactly a small niche, second life will have more players than SWTOR in a couple of months time. Edit: I think only Aion and WoW (and maybe Tor) have a larger player base than second life.

    You need to count the F2P games some way too since the MMO market is going that way. Very few will hold onto sub like WOW and TOR.

    If you look at all the MMO players (which is like ~45M in the US), SL and Eve are pretty small.

    But the point is that there are VW games, though not many, no doubt a response to what the market likes and dislikes.



    If we had an EvE quality game that focused primarily on PvE but also with more sand, I am pretty sure it would do a lot better than EvE.

    PvP focus and spaceship format are obfuscating factors when using EvE as an example of a virtual world not making money.

    And Second Life isn't really a game in the same sense as EvE or any other VWRPG. Its not even an RPG in the traditional sense.

    We have absolutely no idea how an AAA PvE focused sandbox would fare because WoW took over the world before one had time to be made.

     

  • darkhalf357xdarkhalf357x Brooklyn, NYPosts: 1,164Member Uncommon

    We have absolutely no idea how an AAA PvE focused sandbox would fare because WoW took over the world before one had time to be made.

     

    100% agree.  The days of us playing a virtual world are pretty much over.  The MMO genre has beckoned the call of the console gamer, and their (more casual / action-oriented) interests outweigh anything we desire.  Thus the game companies will submit to their playstyle to make profit.

    I wouldnt be surprised if consoles started adding MMO concepts or MMOs started competing with consoles since gaming as an industry is going through a convergence of sorts, where today games can be played on multiple devices including mobile.  This has opened up PC gaming to a whole generation of gamers who were unaware/didnt care prior.

    Any developer/publisher in their right (business) mind would want to do COD numbers.  Catch is, you have to follow the model to get it.

    Hoping indie developers create something inspiring worth supporting.

    image
  • EmwynEmwyn MoatshirePosts: 546Member

    Originally posted by RefMinor

    We need VWRPG virtual world RPG as a separate genre as MMORPG is a lost cause.

    I think so too. imageMMORPG has become a catch all phrase for uh everything that includes more then a few players pretty much.

    Whoever said Second Life is a game, i'm not sure where game fits into it. It is a virtual world experience and not a nice one at that but that's my opinion image

    the poster formerly known as melangel :P

  • EmwynEmwyn MoatshirePosts: 546Member

    Originally posted by Loke666

    I am not really sure how GW2 will be right now, at least most of the game isn´t instanced so it could be worse but fast travel really have it´s downsides. They should have just gone to fast travel between towns instead of everywhere.

    And yeah, it sucks that everyone is hanging in towns and waiting for fast travel to instances, stuff like dungeon finders have made it even worse.

    But as I see it is the overuse of instances the real problem here. Most of the players are not really in the game but at a personal instance for them and maybe their group.

    At least GW2 wont be so bad there, it is my hope that someone else will continue and evolve the ideas until we get something that have the massive feel the old games had. But GW2s use of DEs instead of quests actually have a huge potential of turning the MMOs more massive again. I hope it leads to a turning point where players and devs realie that MMOs are more fun the more players are around.

    I think GW2 won't do badly Loke. I think it will probably be one of the best lately to come out. They've released enough info that anyone who complains they didn't get the experience they thought they would get must be living under a rock.

    I still have hope for the game which cannot be named for fear of it not releasing at all.

    the poster formerly known as melangel :P

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by Cuathon

    We have absolutely no idea how an AAA PvE focused sandbox would fare because WoW took over the world before one had time to be made.

     

    No. But are you willing to bet $50M to find out the answer?

  • ClassicstarClassicstar rotjeknorPosts: 2,690Member


    Originally posted by tixylix
    We're seeing MMOs go from large open worlds like UO,SWG,EVE,EQ and WoW to smaller battleground and instance based like SWTOR and even what WoW has turned into today. The problem I have with that is now every new shooter or online games in general have character progression and even character customization such as hats in TF2. I slowly wonder why we pay a monthly fee for the latest MMOS when their "worlds" are instanced zoned up like crazy and they're now smaller than standard online games. SWTOR for example just has you standing in the fleet station and entering raids or battlegrounds which don't even have 32 people as most standard online games of today. 
    I used to love the open world WoW had with all the large scale PVP and how the instances were built into the world which you had to travel and fight the enemy outside them. Yet all they've done since is kill off the world and just have people standing in cities and instant travelling to battlegrounds and instances. Like why am I paying a subscription for what isn't even an MMO anymore?
    Now MMOs are becoming smaller and instanced are the lines between MMOs and other genres being blurred? We now have standard online games with 64 players, character progression and customization and offering larger scale gameplay than MMOs.
    I personally don't class todays MMOs as MMOs and just see them as like Guild Wars or Diablo. However we're not getting these MMO worlds anymore like we once did, which is such a shame as I thought as tech evolved we'd just get bigger and less zoned/instanced. Everyone is claiming GW2 will change all this, but from all the gameplay videos and info, it's all instant travel everywhere, killing off the world already and you'll just be in battlegrounds.
     
    humph... just hate it.

    Todays generation want instant travel instant uberness no time sink no grind no thinking no chat with others and gear set 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10... endless raids and with macros and mods so they can also leave the keyboard thats these days standard.

    So hopefully GW2 is answer and salvation to this mindboggeling boring mmo's we have these days mainly themeparks have this problem.

    MB:MSI Z97XPOWER AC
    CPU:Intell Icore7 4790k
    GPU:MSI 2x AMD 290X
    MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
    PSU:Corsair AX1200i
    OS:Windows 8.1 64bit)not yet sure i upgrade to windows 10 need to know alot more with integrated cloud and other maybe spy stuff)

  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Cuathon



    We have absolutely no idea how an AAA PvE focused sandbox would fare because WoW took over the world before one had time to be made.

     

    No. But are you willing to bet $50M to find out the answer?

    If I had hundreds of millions of dollars I would bet $25mil to try out a possibly lucrative idea. However I don't. I am willing to bet my whole life though, however much that is worth, and am doing so right now.

  • rungardrungard st. john''s, NFPosts: 1,035Member

    The next ten years will be a golden age for mmorpgs.

    The first thing that will happen is that real time combat aka rts will become the norm as the technology is starting to mature for that. I dont know who, but i anticipate one or two companies that develop game engines will stand above the rest, and this technology will open the gates for a myriad of high quality mmo's in all kinds of themes.

    This sounds crazy, but i believe mmo's will go back to first person. Along with this shift will come the players demand for higher quality gameplay and immersion.

    the reasons for this are simple. It takes years to mmomature, and there are 10m or so doing that right now in wow, but its getting old and as players mature, they will have no choice but to crave deeper, more innovative gameplay and they will want a personal quality to the game (that truely only first person can provide)

    all of this will come together with the invention of the oled tv, which will change how we see games forever with the introduction of the 180 degree curved screen,  which will further serve to bolster the immersion in first person.

    The next thing that will happen will be the integration of the themepark with the sandbox as standard for all mmo's. Some will say it cant be done, but it can and will be done, and all players will be happier for it.

    Rulesets will change as well. Anything that can be done ingame through the use of graphics will be done that way and youll see a huge reduction in the use of UI's and text, and a huge increase in the use of voice. You will be able to pick the voice you want and the computer will modulate it in the game (what else are you going to do with all those cores).

    xbox kinnect technology will undergo some sort of super upgrade transformation, and it will somehow become a new device for windows pc's allowing players to comfortably play mmorpgs from the comfort of their living room while giving them unlimited freedom of play.

    Its not the end of mmo's.. but rather the begining.

     

     

     

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