YES! Way back, when Everquest first came out in 1999, we were SO happy to actually be able to play a game with hundreds if not thousands of other players. It was a dream come true.
Who cared if it was grindy, had a weak story, was gear gated, and had the worst quest system ever.
It was all about playing with others....grouped on the Orc Highway and shouting out incoming SG!
Heck, you could go to a spawn area, and other groups would rotate with you for the spawns.
We would even rotate loot!
But....as time wore on the A$$hats began to come aware of Everquest...and griefed, exploited, kill stealed, loot mongered their way to MMO hell.
Thus, we went from a community of 90% good players and 10% A$$hats in 1999-2001 to 75% A$$hats and 25% good players.
Its a reflection of society today..the kids are spoiled, the grown ups greedy, and people just are not worth grouping with unless they are RL friends or guildmates.
Hard to say. It does feel like communities in general have gone downhill... a lot... compared to the old days. I still remember logging into EQ for the very first time. Within minutes, a player started talking to me, showing me around the dwarven city, buffing me, giving me some coin and telling where to go kill stuff and where to go to next when I had gained a couple of levels.
I can't really put a finger on something specific though and name that the sole reason. I think it's a combination of many things. I don't think the increase of players has much to do with it. The number of people that the average MMO server can hold hasn't changed dramatically since the days of EQ. WoW has hundreds of servers, but you only really interact with one server at a time. I'm more inclined to blame how easy and quick it is to solo a character to max level combined with the ease of erasing your past (server/name/faction change) combined with a change in the type of people playing MMOs.
In old EQ it took forever to level and few classes could solo. So you had to rely more on other people and once you started acting like a jerk... karma would get you as word spread on the server. The slow pace of the game also meant people would talk more during downtime, giving that word a chance to spread even further and make friends. In WoW and similar modern day MMOs I rarely get a chance to talk in group chat since the game is too fast paced for typing, not to mention that people seem to be more in a hurry these days.
Dunno... could be a lot of other things as well... being the reason.
One thing I can say for sure is that I'm less likely to help people these days. Since the MMOs are so easy these days, I don't really feel that people need my help (nor do I need their help). If I see someone in WoW who might be in danger of dying, me helping would prevent a 2-3 min corpse run and an insignificant amount of repair cost. In old EQ it could mean hours of trying to retrieve a corpse and recovering lost XP. Furthermore, I've found that helping people in WoW and similar MMOs sometimes end up with the other person constantly asking me for help, boosting, money/items, guild membership and what not whenever I log in. Basically, you give them a finger and they grab the whole arm plus some. Or you encounter someone who flips out because he/she would rather die than get help. That combined with how easy the game is to solo and lack of death penalty makes me think twice before helping... which kinda sucks when I think about it.
I'm a big ol' fluffy carewolf. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
What kind of person would treat people worse simply because of how many there are? I don't look kindly at people with "situational ethics and I do not mean to be offensive or elitist about it just blunt. (oh wait, I entirely do, because I consider these people lesser human beings that are full of s***.)It is my personal belief that we all do this, without really thinking about it. When new players were a resource, something we needed because YAY more Subs for the game we like = longer life time of our MMO = more content added etc. Now that we're used to WoW's large numbers and the vast number of new players we encounter on a day to day basis I feel like perhaps we treat people a bit worse, without intending to do so.
I value integrity, consistency, and ethical treatment of others. I will respect people who are consistent in their treatment of others, and value them when they have integrity. I'd also like to think that most people will hopefully treat others that way as well, I'd like to believe MOST of humanity believes in the golden rule, treat others like you would like to be treated.
This entire thread and everyone within it has what I call "doomsday perspective". This is something I find typical in people as they mature, age, or simply view through an altered perspective from their past. "Back in my day, people were nicer to one another." Sorry 22 year old gramps, people really haven't changed that much since 5, 10, even 50 years ago. I'm not saying its the end, or even that its bad, I'm just saying its a shift. If you genuinely think that people are just as nice as they used to be "online" specifically, then thats fine, however, I personally think we have started to treat people worse on the internet.
I do not go into great detail to know WHY people become doomsdayers, but for whatever reason they do. It's entirely their perspective though, as human beings rarely change, especially in less than a decade. WoW's initial release isn't that old. Hell, even UO's release isn't that old. Not when you're talking about an entire culture changing. I'm sure far more things have happened than just MMO's evolving, sure UO was from '97, so its only 15. In the past we'd expect it to take much longer for a culture to change, yet see how fast our language progresses now, see how quickly fads catch on, change, and die. Musicians rise to fame and fall to passéin mere months. The world is connected, and information can travel in such a way that we have started to change quicker, or so is my theory.
Doomsday Perspective is that false reality, likened to a doomsday in religion where "During the end times, things will get worse." Instead of relying on facts and real information (such as reports which state a DECREASE in violence, criminal activity, etc.) people instead rely on their...well, I honestly don't want to say "memory" because I rely on my memory, and my memory tells me nothing has changed. If its just my memory fine, then what evidence do we show what sort of empirical information can we logically weigh to figure out if its my memory or if there is measurable change? Merely waving it off as its my memory does not give us a solid answer either way really.
In WoW, there are actually a ridiculous amount of people who are willing to help you. If you ask for help, you will literally get about 10 public insults by nasty, greedy nerds bubbling with excitement at their new-found prey. Meanwhile, you will receive private messages from 10x that amount asking what you need. I think "doomsday" players, especially in highly populated games like WoW or MMORPG-releases, will see the insults and mixed with the painful ouchies which damage their fragile ego, cry doomsday. I was one of the people who would whisper you trying to help you out, in fact I was on my server one of the few people who tried to help the folks who were trolled by telling them the correct answer to their question. Yet I myself have stopped giving out gold to new players, or giving them tours, or even making new player friendly guilds. There are levels of nice, I feel like the level of nice ness has declined.
The more populated games actually have MORE people willing to help you, not less. MORE people willing to go a ridiculous length or give you a ridiculous amount of gold/help than ever before. That's because there's MORE of a chance those types are online, MORE of them playing the game total, MORE generosity, MORE assistance, MORE kind players. WoW's casual "even grandma plays" atmosphere also breeds people who take the game far less seriously, knowing that 100 gold isn't really that much money, especially to a level 80, and even if it was it doesn't matter because it's fake money they don't need. Many players find pleasure and entertainment in helping others, so they actually look forward to those asking for assistance. Just the same as many players find pleasure and entertainment in belittling others because they are sour people or immature youngsters looking to masturbate their ego or troll more. After all, trolling is fun. And to those who aren't sour individuals, so is helping others. So there is nothing to the idea that more of something reduces the value of that thing? I understand your point, if 5% of the player base is bad apples and 5% are saints, then logically if you just increase the number of players over all then you'll have more good people, and more bad people, at roughly the same ratio as before. Sure. Yet again I'm curious if those people who are saintly are perhaps less inclined to assist others as they would be if there were say less of them in need?
It would be a sad, sad human being (if you would want to call them that) who is only nice to people when the population is low. I honestly would rather someone be a total a-hole than to be someone with "situational ethics" void of integrity but not void of kindness. (Kindness without integrity or values is an asinine concept IMO, as it's very dishonest and preferably rejected, at least by me.) Although those who annoy me the most of all are those who CLAIM to be good, generous people, but are lying to boost their ego as they have "A rule" that they cannot help someone. I once met a max level who said "I'd love to help and want to, but I can't. I have a rule against giving money to others. It's just a rule I have." I could only laugh at their long-winded reply. What a liar, deceiving themselves into thinking they are generous. The type of person who wants to be a jerk AND boost their ego that they're a Saint. Yet it seems like that is the reality of the situation, small towns have very close knit communities where everyone cares for each other, my mother lives in one and she is a music director, goes to people's houses and sings for funerals for free and such, knows everyone in the town and can say hello by name. Get to a big city? You can't learn everyone's name, so you don't try. There have been studies done where the mob mentality of watching a crime happen is encouraged by others NOT acting, if we all do a little less, together we do a lot less.
Kick me while I'm down or lend me a hand; don't say you're reaching out with a boot up my ass.
Nothing has changed
I agree with this, I'm not saying anything is new.
Edit: By this I mean change Isn't a new thing, we change in cycles, there is ebb and flow.
I was reading a thread based off a thread on MMO champion that was linked from WoW's site.
This thought occured to me, I myself remember back in the "good ol days" of how other players were very helpful and how I myself was far more helpful to new players than I am now.
Did the success of MMO's, did the massive influx of players, devalue new players to us?
Do we treat new players worse because of simply HOW MANY there are?
If not then what is your theory? I myself agree with the premise that people are less helpful to each other in MMOs than they were.
I don´t think so.
I think that the game forms the players. If a game reward people for being selfish ninja looting jerks than that will be what most of the players are.
The early MMOs were a lot more social than the modern games and people who were treating other players badly were frozen out.
Today you can run random cross server dungeons with people you most likely never meet again and ninja looting stuff is more rewarding than being a nice guy.
Games need to start reward helpful and nice players again instead of jerks and to promote social interaction.
Sure, the early players were from a smaller group of gamers than today and probably had a little more in common but that in itself can not explain what have happened to the players. And theories that young poeple today are ruder than earlier generations was old when Plato complained about it.
It is the games fault, the instancing, the soloing and most of all the need and greed mechanics.
Hard to say. It does feel like communities in general have gone downhill... a lot... compared to the old days. I still remember logging into EQ for the very first time. Within minutes, a player started talking to me, showing me around the dwarven city, buffing me, giving me some coin and telling where to go kill stuff and where to go to next when I had gained a couple of levels.
I can't really put a finger on something specific though and name that the sole reason. I think it's a combination of many things. I don't think the increase of players has much to do with it. The number of people that the average MMO server can hold hasn't changed dramatically since the days of EQ. WoW has hundreds of servers, but you only really interact with one server at a time. I'm more inclined to blame how easy and quick it is to solo a character to max level combined with the ease of erasing your past (server/name/faction change) combined with a change in the type of people playing MMOs. This is how I feel in many ways, I'm not exactly certain as to what is causing this, or even if its really happening, however, my theory if it WAS happening is that since the number of over all players to MMOs has increased and the number of people we interact with in MMO's has increased to an extent ( people seem to quit and re sub with a lot more frequency ) Thats just off the top of my head. That and in WoW we have the random dungeon finder, which honestly a lot of folks probably really enjoy trolling in there, I know I've been trolled in LFD, you never have to see em again.
In old EQ it took forever to level and few classes could solo. So you had to rely more on other people and once you started acting like a jerk... karma would get you as word spread on the server. The slow pace of the game also meant people would talk more during downtime, giving that word a chance to spread even further and make friends. In WoW and similar modern day MMOs I rarely get a chance to talk in group chat since the game is too fast paced for typing, not to mention that people seem to be more in a hurry these days. I agree with this, with more focus on grouping there is more reliance on others, trust and relationships form, we have meaningful community interaction based around that. Also when you had to play one character longer as you said, people knew who was a bad apple and who was a good one. Downtime CAN increase community, I've believed that for a long time, it just needs to be cleverly balanced. Time sink's for the sake of time sink's are bad, however waiting on a boat or something for a short time can be immersive, and community building.
Dunno... could be a lot of other things as well... being the reason.
One thing I can say for sure is that I'm less likely to help people these days. Since the MMOs are so easy these days, I don't really feel that people need my help (nor do I need their help). If I see someone in WoW who might be in danger of dying, me helping would prevent a 2-3 min corpse run and an insignificant amount of repair cost. In old EQ it could mean hours of trying to retrieve a corpse and recovering lost XP. Furthermore, I've found that helping people in WoW and similar MMOs sometimes end up with the other person constantly asking me for help, boosting, money/items, guild membership and what not whenever I log in. Basically, you give them a finger and they grab the whole arm plus some. Or you encounter someone who flips out because he/she would rather die than get help. That combined with how easy the game is to solo and lack of death penalty makes me think twice before helping... which kinda sucks when I think about it. I feel much the same way, I used to try to save people from dying a lot more often, or handed out gold more etc. I do feel jaded, and it does suck. Perhaps as you stated the reduction of penalty has combined with several other aspects to just give us a bit of an excuse to allow this whole trend to continue.
Thanks for your post!
Wow so many well thought out posts guys thanks :-)
YES! Way back, when Everquest first came out in 1999, we were SO happy to actually be able to play a game with hundreds if not thousands of other players. It was a dream come true.
Who cared if it was grindy, had a weak story, was gear gated, and had the worst quest system ever.
It was all about playing with others....grouped on the Orc Highway and shouting out incoming SG!
Heck, you could go to a spawn area, and other groups would rotate with you for the spawns.
We would even rotate loot!
But....as time wore on the A$$hats began to come aware of Everquest...and griefed, exploited, kill stealed, loot mongered their way to MMO hell. Ah an interesting premise, so the loss of the nitche aspect of MMO's contributed to the downfall of the community and the downfall of the humanitarian aspect of the genre? I could see this being a possible contributing factor.
Thus, we went from a community of 90% good players and 10% A$$hats in 1999-2001 to 75% A$$hats and 25% good players.
Its a reflection of society today..the kids are spoiled, the grown ups greedy, and people just are not worth grouping with unless they are RL friends or guildmates. Has THIS really change much though? I mean I feel like greed is a persisting human trait, and kids have always been spoiled. Just my two cents.
I was reading a thread based off a thread on MMO champion that was linked from WoW's site.
This thought occured to me, I myself remember back in the "good ol days" of how other players were very helpful and how I myself was far more helpful to new players than I am now.
Did the success of MMO's, did the massive influx of players, devalue new players to us?
Do we treat new players worse because of simply HOW MANY there are?
If not then what is your theory? I myself agree with the premise that people are less helpful to each other in MMOs than they were.
If your child fell, you'd be very concerned and immediately check to see if they are ok. If a person up the block fell, you'd possible hope they didn't get hurt or maybe even walk over to see if they are ok (unlikely). If I told you that someone five towns over fell, you'd more than likely wonder why I am telling you or why I would think you'd care.
People care less and less about those further and further removed from their immediate circle. This is true in life and games. This is why I feel MMOs should offer more features to allow people to divide into smaller communities of like-minded individuals within the greater server/game community.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I think that the amount of players devalued the way games are developed. Since MMOs have gone from complex to linear, our average age drops 10 years.
Yet the origional thread that brought up this topic was about how people were nicer back a few years ago in the same games.
Look at WoW now, look at FFXI now, look at nearly any game that has survived a long time, the community is worse.
People just dont' wanna help each other any more.
Its all me, all the time.
It's a "me, me. me" generation. Take a look a Facebook and Twitter. I could care less if someone just "checked in at McDonalds" or if someone is complaining about the weather. SOCIAL BACTERIA.
Most people that played in the early days were folks with creative imaginiations. As of now, everyone plays, e.g., the nerd, the jock, the hottie, the fatty, the executive, the unemployed, the emo, and the thug.
I think that the amount of players devalued the way games are developed. Since MMOs have gone from complex to linear, our average age drops 10 years.
Yet the origional thread that brought up this topic was about how people were nicer back a few years ago in the same games.
Look at WoW now, look at FFXI now, look at nearly any game that has survived a long time, the community is worse.
People just dont' wanna help each other any more.
Its all me, all the time.
It's a "me, me. me" generation. Take a look a Facebook and Twitter. I could care less if someone just "checked in at McDonalds" or if someone is complaining about the weather. SOCIAL BACTERIA.
Most people that played in the early days were folks with creative imaginiations. As of now, everyone plays, e.g., the nerd, the jock, the hottie, the fatty, the executive, the unemployed, the emo, and the thug.
I miss it was it was just nerds. I'm a nerd.
Hehe I can identify with the sentiment, yet I wonder if its the inclusion of the jerks to the nerd world thats making the nerds agitated so now we're acting more like jerks ourselves?
Also yeah I kinda don't like twitter and facebook and all that, yet its nice some times to be able to tell others interesting facts and such... There are down sides, some of which you listed and some of which would take a decade to list heh.
I do miss the smaller community aspect of a lot of games...
I notice a few other posters echoed similar thoughts, that we should have ways to divide ourselves into smaller groups so we CAN afford to care about other people. Its an interesting thought.
Sure, the early players were from a smaller group of gamers than today and probably had a little more in common but that in itself can not explain what have happened to the players. And theories that young poeple today are ruder than earlier generations was old when Plato complained about it.
Some of the most awesome, helpful and skilled (all at the same time) players I've encountered in WoW have been in their mid-teens. Some of the worst foul-mouthed drama queens I've encountered turned out to be 30+. I've seen my nephew play when he was in his early/mid-teens and he is a lot more helpful than I've ever been in WoW. Funny thing is, he would beg for gold and boosts on his low level characters, something that a lot of old-school players tend to consider a big no-no, but once he had high level characters and plenty of gold, he would return the favor and give gold/boosts to random people. Maybe he is special. Maybe I've just been lucky to have such good experience with younger players, but it has giving me enough personal experience to not immidiately judge a player by his/her age (something I used to do back in the day). That's also why I'm not worried one bit when the haters say that Blizzard is pandering to the younger crowd in MoP.
I'm a big ol' fluffy carewolf. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Again, I blame most of this on game mechanics. Back in DAOC, if you died you could release and rez, but it meant a long run back and you had to get to your grave to get back most (not all ) of the experience you lost. This could be hard to do in a challenging dungeon, and routinely the call would go out for a healer to come rez someone, and not only would a healer be willing to do it, but his entire party would fight their way to the downed player to rez them, with no payment expected and nothing more than a heartfelt thank you passed between the teams.
...
Nice story here - and I remember the times well when I played a cleric in DAoC.
The loot distribution in groups at that time is a good indicator too. After DAoC I played Ryzom and on private NWN servers (never played WoW) and after a few years I tried LotRO. I was shocked when I first saw this (to me) new loot window (with need, greed, pass) and couldn't even understand what it's good for and why I should hit these darn buttons anyway.
Back when I played DAoC loot just randomly went into someone's bag and a message in the chat window was shown to all group members. Practically all groups operated on the premise that whoever could use the particular item best would get it. Thus, when waiting to regen, people would just give the loot that landed in their bag to the player that could make best use of it. No BoE or BoP nonsense. No questions asked, no payment or other favour expected.
Very occasionally, mostly at lower levels, you would have a player in a PUG that would not pass over the loot to the group member and would keep it instead. Very soon these players would be known in the realm as loot whores and consequently they couldn't find groups anymore. In DAoC that meant that your progression was basically stalled. And that's the beauty of that mechanic: It made quite clear to people that they have 2 alternatives. Play nice or you don't play at all.
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Back when in old UO there were many newbies I would help out with free stuff, give them a over view of different features and show them so places to start. A few of them have become good rl friends because of UO. But with the influx of new people there is also an influx of douche bags and scammers that are just looking for free handouts. I'm not saying there is more of a % now then there was but with more of us so there is more of them.
Plus the way game mechanics are now it really puts everyone against everyone else. I could help some newbie back in UO and not hurt them now I'm killing there xp. MMOs have become esports where everyone has to compete againsts everyone else for everything.
Did the success of MMO's, did the massive influx of players, devalue new players to us?
No, about 10 years ago the influx diluted the community of helpful, sociable and articulate players that existed at that time with a horde of "I wanna win and I wanna win NOW!" console-kiddies. These players think a good game experience is to rack up a kill count and climb the scoreboard no matter what game they are playing and have zero interest in helping anyone else along the way.
As a result we now have games where no-one talks, no-one groups, Gear Score (or whatever yardstick is used to quantify the equipment you wear) is paramount to 'how good you are' and the very concept of "Community" in a game is an alien concept to all but a tiny fraction of the player base. No wonder games now pander to the vast majority and are thus shallow, bland and repetitive - because THAT is where the big bucks are.
I remember the first time I logged into UO, I met a guy who told me all about this University that taught new players how to play the game. Everyone was very friendly and they protected the new players from PKs and the like, they had forged an alliance with local PKers and RP guilds to protect the newbies.
I remember something similar in EQ, though it wasn't based around just helping new players, just an all social guild asked for me to join a few hours into it, while I was killing some gnolls and I died to Frippy darkpaw some guy saw me and helped me finish the quest and invited me to his guild.
I in turn returned the favors in both of these games, eventually teaching other new players how to play and how to survive and thrive in our online worlds.
I even recall DAoC being very similar in that respect, I ended up making a guild to help new players in that game, and we had a lot of people who played with us for years.
Move on to FFXI... Wow so many people helped each other out in that game back in the day.... I remember day one I was given 3 linkshells to talk to people in, and each of them was because a separate person had seen me trying to play the game and not doing so well so they helped me along. Each of those linkshells I kept for a long time, and I eventually helped with the forming of another linkshell that taught new players the ropes.
I even recall BC WoW. I used to do dungeon runs for people as a tank for no cost, no reason at all, merely to help others complete dungeons long after I had everything I needed. I found it fun to help others experience content for the first time...
Some time over the next few years that feeling just faded, I noticed others stopped giving a crap about helping people out unless it benefited them too...
I thought it was just me but the more and more people I talk to about it the more I see a growing trend.
I had different experiences than you did......EQ and DAoC had great, friendly playerbases......UO and FFXI were disasters, especially UO.....I was ganked more in 15 minutes of UO than I have been the 15 years since I tried it.....FFXI I asked questions for two hours and never got a single response.
I've not seen any change in how helpful or unhelpful people are in MMORPG or games in general. Some games have a much lower tolerance level than others though. I've noticed my tolerance level for new players can depend on the game I'm playing. The single biggest factor in my 'helpfulness' is my current mood. This is followed closely by my opinion of the person asking for help. Is it a good investment of my time? Will this person learn to do things for themselves in the game, or will they be a constant drain on my time and resources? I have no interest in supporting other players...I expect them to stand on their own. However, I'll happily invest time in another player if it looks like they'll 'get it' and get on with the game, whether it looks like they're going to hang around or not.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I'm going to disagree with the premise of the OP, I really don't think the increased number of players has much to do with it, because basically, we still all play on servers with 2000-3000 active players at any one time, which is exactly how many I played with in DAOC back in 2002. The number of players per server hasn't changed, the pace at which they subscribe, unsub, and come back has increased. Making the players you encounter much greater in number. Or at least it is in my experience.
OK, I'll have to agree with you there. Due to the lack of options more than anything else, players stuck with MMORPG's longer than they do today. (and they were much bigger time sinks)
Also, I've played EVE which has over 65K players online with me at the same time, (OK, 10,000 each playing 6.5 accounts) and found the community there to actually be better than the SWTOR community that I'm playing with now. Yet EvE is the host of the most notorious player griefing in the MMO world. Perhaps there is something to be said in relation to those two things?
I wouldn't make too much of a correlation there. EVE is a griefer paradise because CCP explicitly permits (and perhaps promotes) it. Has nothing to do with the playerbase or size of population, just part of the game. As for the friendliness, mostly due to the complexity of the game people need help mastering it and players are actually willing to share their experience when asked correctly. Also, the game rewards team play significantly, so while you can solo your whole career (many do, though I don't recommend it), the game really shines when you're part of a team, be it an industrial corp in Concord space or a 0.0 holding alliance. Speaking of alliances, this feature alone makes several thousand people your instant friend (until they stab you in the back, heh).
It's true, back in DAOC, my friends and I joined and one of them ran into a "vet" (game had been out for 6 months) and he gave him about 150 gold, which was truely a small fortune back in the day, especially to a bunch of noobs. I must say I've had a similar experience, I used to give out gold and recieve a lot more gold in MMOs for no reason other than to just be nice.
Heh, maybe you were the person who gave out gold to my friend. Pay it forward, I frequently have.
Again, I blame most of this on game mechanics. Back in DAOC, if you died you could release and rez, but it meant a long run back and you had to get to your grave to get back most (not all ) of the experience you lost. This could be hard to do in a challenging dungeon, and routinely the call would go out for a healer to come rez someone, and not only would a healer be willing to do it, but his entire party would fight their way to the downed player to rez them, with no payment expected and nothing more than a heartfelt thank you passed between the teams. This is very similar to FFXI, yet when I went back to the game a year and a half ago, everybody was far more selfish and far less helpful to new players or returning ones. I don't think its just the mechanics that have changed, I think its a paradigm shift.
Well, I'm told FFXI is now very solo friendly compared to back in the day, though I have read there's quite a bit of class/gear elitism in it now, if you aren't properly spec'd/geared you can forget about being included in groups. DAOC wasn't like that back in the day, only a few "elite" teams would really care about such matters.
Contrast that with SWTOR, when I die I can just wait about 20 seconds and rez myself in total safety. I never gave anyone anything for free in SWTOR, in fact I intentionally gouged a few people and had them pay far more then the AH price because they didn't know how to use the AH. Maybe I've just become more of a jerk myself.
Heh. I was running through fleet the other night and someone shouted asking if anyone had 100 Level 1 powerstones. My first inclination was to send him a tell and just give them some (I had 88) which I would have done in an earlier day, like in DAOC or even early WOW. But no, greed overcame me (perhaps because I'm playing the Dark side?) and I checked the AH and saw there were none for sale. A quick check of level 2 powerstones had the price at around 130-140 each, so I priced mine at about 100..... LOL, no I didn't, I put them up in 4 groups of 22 at 200 a piece and within 30 minutes "someone" bought them all making me a 20 grand profit. While it was nice to make some big cash (I only had about 5K on my level 14 toon at the time) in that earlier time giving those away might have made me a friend, or even gotten me a good guild invite. But in today's world I know (or expected) little gratitude or reward, so I'm better off keeping the cash.
So I agree, I don't think the problem lies at all with the number of players, nor that the community is actually any worse today than it was back then. (well, it is a bit worse for a couple of reasons, but that is a post for a different thread) but rather players really aren't presented with the need to cooperate or assist, so left to themselves they rarely do anymore. I think its a little bit from A and a little bit from B.
Probably true.
True, some of the perception is due to the Nostaligia Factor (the real term for this) where we see things in the past fondly, and probably overlook a lot of what was wrong, but in many cases as people have observered, the tone of these games has significantly changed even if it's a very difficult thing to measure.
I don't think its nostalgia, I genuinely do not care as much about new players as I used to, and I am not alone. No you are not alone, I'm right there with you, but can't say I like this change in my behavior.
Edit: Thanks so much for the reply, I really like a lot of the discussion thats going on :-D Thanks for writing so much!
No problem, it was a good thread topic, and when I have time I always enjoy a good conversation, even when playing MMORPG's, go figure.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I don't think the larger number of players "devalued the player."
I think it's the game design / mechanics that devalued the player. Game mechanics that alter what should be a Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game to be more of a Single Player title. Games have made it more beneficial, namely convenient, to solo-play instead of adventuring in a group. Some games go in the deeper end to make players more self-sufficient and no minimizing the services or assistance of another player. I'll even go on to say that allowing multiple characters per server, per account, further kills that last need of working with other players.
If the game makes it more beneficial to play by yourself, why would anyone consider another player as important to them? There are MMORPGs out there that you can literally go from tutorial to level cap / end game just by playing by yourself, and not having to buy items / get help from another player.
Again, game design trends of the last several years have greatly devalued what a player means to another.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
I played EQ for a few days in the early 2000's but never could get into it. Then when FFXI launched I picked it up and loved that game. I played non-stop for almost 4 years... So I know a little about "old school games"
When it came to my expeirence with FFXI, I found peopel extremly helpful, I had people PL me, give me gil (gold) and revive me.. and so on..
But deffinitly not now. so what has changed?
Couple of ideas that I think might have something to do with it.
1. Diffrent players. We just don't have the same nerd-only players now days...
2. The games are diffrent now, When I played FFXI it took a LONG time to level. (after 4 years I never capped a single class) And since leveling took so long it wasn't the main focus of the game (at least I didn't feel like it was). So often I would take a week hiadus (sp?) from leveling or crafting and I would go farm and then pass the gil out to noobs, or help them get through quest. stuff like that. Now days its "just got the game...must get capped in 1 month, hurry hurry hurry"
3. Games just arn't as group based anymore, in WoW you can see 90% of the ingame content without partying once. With group based games people (I think) tended to be nicer to other people because, who knows maybe you'll have to group with them tomorrow.
soo in short, I think its a combo of things. I do long for the old days.. but I'll probably never see them again.
Comments
Excellent post OP....
YES! Way back, when Everquest first came out in 1999, we were SO happy to actually be able to play a game with hundreds if not thousands of other players. It was a dream come true.
Who cared if it was grindy, had a weak story, was gear gated, and had the worst quest system ever.
It was all about playing with others....grouped on the Orc Highway and shouting out incoming SG!
Heck, you could go to a spawn area, and other groups would rotate with you for the spawns.
We would even rotate loot!
But....as time wore on the A$$hats began to come aware of Everquest...and griefed, exploited, kill stealed, loot mongered their way to MMO hell.
Thus, we went from a community of 90% good players and 10% A$$hats in 1999-2001 to 75% A$$hats and 25% good players.
Its a reflection of society today..the kids are spoiled, the grown ups greedy, and people just are not worth grouping with unless they are RL friends or guildmates.
Sad but true...
Hard to say. It does feel like communities in general have gone downhill... a lot... compared to the old days. I still remember logging into EQ for the very first time. Within minutes, a player started talking to me, showing me around the dwarven city, buffing me, giving me some coin and telling where to go kill stuff and where to go to next when I had gained a couple of levels.
I can't really put a finger on something specific though and name that the sole reason. I think it's a combination of many things. I don't think the increase of players has much to do with it. The number of people that the average MMO server can hold hasn't changed dramatically since the days of EQ. WoW has hundreds of servers, but you only really interact with one server at a time. I'm more inclined to blame how easy and quick it is to solo a character to max level combined with the ease of erasing your past (server/name/faction change) combined with a change in the type of people playing MMOs.
In old EQ it took forever to level and few classes could solo. So you had to rely more on other people and once you started acting like a jerk... karma would get you as word spread on the server. The slow pace of the game also meant people would talk more during downtime, giving that word a chance to spread even further and make friends. In WoW and similar modern day MMOs I rarely get a chance to talk in group chat since the game is too fast paced for typing, not to mention that people seem to be more in a hurry these days.
Dunno... could be a lot of other things as well... being the reason.
One thing I can say for sure is that I'm less likely to help people these days. Since the MMOs are so easy these days, I don't really feel that people need my help (nor do I need their help). If I see someone in WoW who might be in danger of dying, me helping would prevent a 2-3 min corpse run and an insignificant amount of repair cost. In old EQ it could mean hours of trying to retrieve a corpse and recovering lost XP. Furthermore, I've found that helping people in WoW and similar MMOs sometimes end up with the other person constantly asking me for help, boosting, money/items, guild membership and what not whenever I log in. Basically, you give them a finger and they grab the whole arm plus some. Or you encounter someone who flips out because he/she would rather die than get help. That combined with how easy the game is to solo and lack of death penalty makes me think twice before helping... which kinda sucks when I think about it.
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I don´t think so.
I think that the game forms the players. If a game reward people for being selfish ninja looting jerks than that will be what most of the players are.
The early MMOs were a lot more social than the modern games and people who were treating other players badly were frozen out.
Today you can run random cross server dungeons with people you most likely never meet again and ninja looting stuff is more rewarding than being a nice guy.
Games need to start reward helpful and nice players again instead of jerks and to promote social interaction.
Sure, the early players were from a smaller group of gamers than today and probably had a little more in common but that in itself can not explain what have happened to the players. And theories that young poeple today are ruder than earlier generations was old when Plato complained about it.
It is the games fault, the instancing, the soloing and most of all the need and greed mechanics.
Wow so many well thought out posts guys thanks :-)
If your child fell, you'd be very concerned and immediately check to see if they are ok. If a person up the block fell, you'd possible hope they didn't get hurt or maybe even walk over to see if they are ok (unlikely). If I told you that someone five towns over fell, you'd more than likely wonder why I am telling you or why I would think you'd care.
People care less and less about those further and further removed from their immediate circle. This is true in life and games. This is why I feel MMOs should offer more features to allow people to divide into smaller communities of like-minded individuals within the greater server/game community.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It's a "me, me. me" generation. Take a look a Facebook and Twitter. I could care less if someone just "checked in at McDonalds" or if someone is complaining about the weather. SOCIAL BACTERIA.
Most people that played in the early days were folks with creative imaginiations. As of now, everyone plays, e.g., the nerd, the jock, the hottie, the fatty, the executive, the unemployed, the emo, and the thug.
I miss it was it was just nerds. I'm a nerd.
Hehe I can identify with the sentiment, yet I wonder if its the inclusion of the jerks to the nerd world thats making the nerds agitated so now we're acting more like jerks ourselves?
Also yeah I kinda don't like twitter and facebook and all that, yet its nice some times to be able to tell others interesting facts and such... There are down sides, some of which you listed and some of which would take a decade to list heh.
I do miss the smaller community aspect of a lot of games...
I notice a few other posters echoed similar thoughts, that we should have ways to divide ourselves into smaller groups so we CAN afford to care about other people. Its an interesting thought.
Some of the most awesome, helpful and skilled (all at the same time) players I've encountered in WoW have been in their mid-teens. Some of the worst foul-mouthed drama queens I've encountered turned out to be 30+. I've seen my nephew play when he was in his early/mid-teens and he is a lot more helpful than I've ever been in WoW. Funny thing is, he would beg for gold and boosts on his low level characters, something that a lot of old-school players tend to consider a big no-no, but once he had high level characters and plenty of gold, he would return the favor and give gold/boosts to random people. Maybe he is special. Maybe I've just been lucky to have such good experience with younger players, but it has giving me enough personal experience to not immidiately judge a player by his/her age (something I used to do back in the day). That's also why I'm not worried one bit when the haters say that Blizzard is pandering to the younger crowd in MoP.
I'm a big ol' fluffy carewolf. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Nice story here - and I remember the times well when I played a cleric in DAoC.
The loot distribution in groups at that time is a good indicator too. After DAoC I played Ryzom and on private NWN servers (never played WoW) and after a few years I tried LotRO. I was shocked when I first saw this (to me) new loot window (with need, greed, pass) and couldn't even understand what it's good for and why I should hit these darn buttons anyway.
Back when I played DAoC loot just randomly went into someone's bag and a message in the chat window was shown to all group members. Practically all groups operated on the premise that whoever could use the particular item best would get it. Thus, when waiting to regen, people would just give the loot that landed in their bag to the player that could make best use of it. No BoE or BoP nonsense. No questions asked, no payment or other favour expected.
Very occasionally, mostly at lower levels, you would have a player in a PUG that would not pass over the loot to the group member and would keep it instead. Very soon these players would be known in the realm as loot whores and consequently they couldn't find groups anymore. In DAoC that meant that your progression was basically stalled. And that's the beauty of that mechanic: It made quite clear to people that they have 2 alternatives. Play nice or you don't play at all.
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Back when in old UO there were many newbies I would help out with free stuff, give them a over view of different features and show them so places to start. A few of them have become good rl friends because of UO. But with the influx of new people there is also an influx of douche bags and scammers that are just looking for free handouts. I'm not saying there is more of a % now then there was but with more of us so there is more of them.
Plus the way game mechanics are now it really puts everyone against everyone else. I could help some newbie back in UO and not hurt them now I'm killing there xp. MMOs have become esports where everyone has to compete againsts everyone else for everything.
Why is this obsession of people need to be nice in a game?
Have a few friends and be strangers to others. I don't see anything wrong with it.
No, about 10 years ago the influx diluted the community of helpful, sociable and articulate players that existed at that time with a horde of "I wanna win and I wanna win NOW!" console-kiddies. These players think a good game experience is to rack up a kill count and climb the scoreboard no matter what game they are playing and have zero interest in helping anyone else along the way.
As a result we now have games where no-one talks, no-one groups, Gear Score (or whatever yardstick is used to quantify the equipment you wear) is paramount to 'how good you are' and the very concept of "Community" in a game is an alien concept to all but a tiny fraction of the player base. No wonder games now pander to the vast majority and are thus shallow, bland and repetitive - because THAT is where the big bucks are.
I had different experiences than you did......EQ and DAoC had great, friendly playerbases......UO and FFXI were disasters, especially UO.....I was ganked more in 15 minutes of UO than I have been the 15 years since I tried it.....FFXI I asked questions for two hours and never got a single response.
I've not seen any change in how helpful or unhelpful people are in MMORPG or games in general. Some games have a much lower tolerance level than others though. I've noticed my tolerance level for new players can depend on the game I'm playing. The single biggest factor in my 'helpfulness' is my current mood. This is followed closely by my opinion of the person asking for help. Is it a good investment of my time? Will this person learn to do things for themselves in the game, or will they be a constant drain on my time and resources? I have no interest in supporting other players...I expect them to stand on their own. However, I'll happily invest time in another player if it looks like they'll 'get it' and get on with the game, whether it looks like they're going to hang around or not.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I don't think the larger number of players "devalued the player."
I think it's the game design / mechanics that devalued the player. Game mechanics that alter what should be a Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game to be more of a Single Player title. Games have made it more beneficial, namely convenient, to solo-play instead of adventuring in a group. Some games go in the deeper end to make players more self-sufficient and no minimizing the services or assistance of another player. I'll even go on to say that allowing multiple characters per server, per account, further kills that last need of working with other players.
If the game makes it more beneficial to play by yourself, why would anyone consider another player as important to them? There are MMORPGs out there that you can literally go from tutorial to level cap / end game just by playing by yourself, and not having to buy items / get help from another player.
Again, game design trends of the last several years have greatly devalued what a player means to another.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
I played EQ for a few days in the early 2000's but never could get into it. Then when FFXI launched I picked it up and loved that game. I played non-stop for almost 4 years... So I know a little about "old school games"
When it came to my expeirence with FFXI, I found peopel extremly helpful, I had people PL me, give me gil (gold) and revive me.. and so on..
But deffinitly not now. so what has changed?
Couple of ideas that I think might have something to do with it.
1. Diffrent players. We just don't have the same nerd-only players now days...
2. The games are diffrent now, When I played FFXI it took a LONG time to level. (after 4 years I never capped a single class) And since leveling took so long it wasn't the main focus of the game (at least I didn't feel like it was). So often I would take a week hiadus (sp?) from leveling or crafting and I would go farm and then pass the gil out to noobs, or help them get through quest. stuff like that. Now days its "just got the game...must get capped in 1 month, hurry hurry hurry"
3. Games just arn't as group based anymore, in WoW you can see 90% of the ingame content without partying once. With group based games people (I think) tended to be nicer to other people because, who knows maybe you'll have to group with them tomorrow.
soo in short, I think its a combo of things. I do long for the old days.. but I'll probably never see them again.
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