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Did the increase of players devalue the player?
Laughing-man
Member RarePosts: 3,654
I was reading a thread based off a thread on MMO champion that was linked from WoW's site.
This thought occured to me, I myself remember back in the "good ol days" of how other players were very helpful and how I myself was far more helpful to new players than I am now.
Did the success of MMO's, did the massive influx of players, devalue new players to us?
Do we treat new players worse because of simply HOW MANY there are?
If not then what is your theory? I myself agree with the premise that people are less helpful to each other in MMOs than they were.
Comments
I am going to have to agree with you on that, I also remember being nicer to people and people being nicer to me. I still remember when I first started WoW people would help me find groups(sometimes even give me a free run) and I even met one guy when I was just being a noob, we talked for a while and then he gave me 100g and told me to take care(boy was I flippin' shit, that was big bucks for a level 30 hunter).
As if that would ever happen now.
So much have been stripped away from MMOs that allowed you to help. Stuff like useful buffs. open dungeons, death penalties etc.
People really don't need help today. You can level to max within a month if you are super casual and dungeon finders assures you a group within minutes. Lack of death penalties means you can use it as a means of travel etc.
I don't think size has as much to do with it as the evolution of the genre do. Nobody cares because your progress is not dependant on other people. That's the difference between then and now IMO
Back in the day the main source of information for players was other players. this made for a much healthier and cohesive community. now adays if you havent read guide 1 2 and 3 or watched video a b and c people call you noob and get down right hostile. but then again it's now the norm to send people outside of the game to learn how to play it since the information is so wide spread and so comprehensive. a player can try to help a player but usally guide z42 on site y will usally not only answer the question but teach said player way more and show much higher detailed answer then another player in global chat or tells can allow for.
so i think that the lack of a reliance on other players has partialy contributed to this phenomenon. and of course then you add in the trolls flamers and haters and player interaction has just gone into the toilet for the most part in todays games.
I remember the first time I logged into UO, I met a guy who told me all about this University that taught new players how to play the game. Everyone was very friendly and they protected the new players from PKs and the like, they had forged an alliance with local PKers and RP guilds to protect the newbies.
I remember something similar in EQ, though it wasn't based around just helping new players, just an all social guild asked for me to join a few hours into it, while I was killing some gnolls and I died to Frippy darkpaw some guy saw me and helped me finish the quest and invited me to his guild.
I in turn returned the favors in both of these games, eventually teaching other new players how to play and how to survive and thrive in our online worlds.
I even recall DAoC being very similar in that respect, I ended up making a guild to help new players in that game, and we had a lot of people who played with us for years.
Move on to FFXI... Wow so many people helped each other out in that game back in the day.... I remember day one I was given 3 linkshells to talk to people in, and each of them was because a separate person had seen me trying to play the game and not doing so well so they helped me along. Each of those linkshells I kept for a long time, and I eventually helped with the forming of another linkshell that taught new players the ropes.
I even recall BC WoW. I used to do dungeon runs for people as a tank for no cost, no reason at all, merely to help others complete dungeons long after I had everything I needed. I found it fun to help others experience content for the first time...
Some time over the next few years that feeling just faded, I noticed others stopped giving a crap about helping people out unless it benefited them too...
I thought it was just me but the more and more people I talk to about it the more I see a growing trend.
Awhile back I was playing LOTRO and saw a low level player trying to kill a mob and losing - so I helped. They reported me for interfering. I was told not to help unless asked. So I rarely help now, don't want to be reported for being nice.
Currently bored with MMO's.
Thats terrible :-(
I'm sorry you had such an experience, it makes me wonder if MMO designers are thinking about the kind of things that made us like to play games together, like helping each other out.
Community for communitys sake.
You should have been lionized not demonized. :-(
What kind of person would treat people worse simply because of how many there are? I don't look kindly at people with "situational ethics and I do not mean to be offensive or elitist about it just blunt. (oh wait, I entirely do, because I consider these people lesser human beings that are full of s***.)
I value integrity, consistency, and ethical treatment of others. I will respect people who are consistent in their treatment of others, and value them when they have integrity.
This entire thread and everyone within it has what I call "doomsday perspective". This is something I find typical in people as they mature, age, or simply view through an altered perspective from their past. "Back in my day, people were nicer to one another." Sorry 22 year old gramps, people really haven't changed that much since 5, 10, even 50 years ago.
I do not go into great detail to know WHY people become doomsdayers, but for whatever reason they do. It's entirely their perspective though, as human beings rarely change, especially in less than a decade. WoW's initial release isn't that old. Hell, even UO's release isn't that old. Not when you're talking about an entire culture changing.
Doomsday Perspective is that false reality, likened to a doomsday in religion where "During the end times, things will get worse." Instead of relying on facts and real information (such as reports which state a DECREASE in violence, criminal activity, etc.) people instead rely on their...well, I honestly don't want to say "memory" because I rely on my memory, and my memory tells me nothing has changed.
In WoW, there are actually a ridiculous amount of people who are willing to help you. If you ask for help, you will literally get about 10 public insults by nasty, greedy nerds bubbling with excitement at their new-found prey. Meanwhile, you will receive private messages from 10x that amount asking what you need. I think "doomsday" players, especially in highly populated games like WoW or MMORPG-releases, will see the insults and mixed with the painful ouchies which damage their fragile ego, cry doomsday.
The more populated games actually have MORE people willing to help you, not less. MORE people willing to go a ridiculous length or give you a ridiculous amount of gold/help than ever before. That's because there's MORE of a chance those types are online, MORE of them playing the game total, MORE generosity, MORE assistance, MORE kind players. WoW's casual "even grandma plays" atmosphere also breeds people who take the game far less seriously, knowing that 100 gold isn't really that much money, especially to a level 80, and even if it was it doesn't matter because it's fake money they don't need. Many players find pleasure and entertainment in helping others, so they actually look forward to those asking for assistance. Just the same as many players find pleasure and entertainment in belittling others because they are sour people or immature youngsters looking to masturbate their ego or troll more. After all, trolling is fun. And to those who aren't sour individuals, so is helping others.
It would be a sad, sad human being (if you would want to call them that) who is only nice to people when the population is low. I honestly would rather someone be a total a-hole than to be someone with "situational ethics" void of integrity but not void of kindness. (Kindness without integrity or values is an asinine concept IMO, as it's very dishonest and preferably rejected, at least by me.) Although those who annoy me the most of all are those who CLAIM to be good, generous people, but are lying to boost their ego as they have "A rule" that they cannot help someone. I once met a max level who said "I'd love to help and want to, but I can't. I have a rule against giving money to others. It's just a rule I have." I could only laugh at their long-winded reply. What a liar, deceiving themselves into thinking they are generous. The type of person who wants to be a jerk AND boost their ego that they're a Saint.
Kick me while I'm down or lend me a hand; don't say you're reaching out with a boot up my ass.
Nothing has changed
This amazes me.
Instead of relying on you actual experience, reality: the facts... you rely on "people I talk to about it".
First off, you do not SEE the growing trend. What you saw, from what you stated, was the opposite. Very helpful people, followed by a bout of not-so-helpful people. Instead you rely on what you HEAR. What others tell you. What others affirm that is already in your mind as possible. What you SEE, according to your post, really seems to speak as the opposite of what you hear. The reason I am defining SEE and HEAR as different is incredibly important as what you say you saw is actual experiences that can make up facts, reality. What you hear is simply what you hear-- something that can easily be false, exagerated, or partially informed or entirely misinformed.
Then you discuss the topic with people. When you bring up a topic like this, it multiplies the "doomsday perspective". One man says "Are people more selfish today than they used to be?" Everyone will chip in and as predictable as the sun rises, they will agree and perhaps share a story. This snowball effect is actually PART of the "doomsday perspective" as people share their recent unfortunate doomsday events, having others immediately affirming their false perspective.
I hate to be so blunt and offensive, but it WAS just you. The people you talked to about it? It WAS just them. It's NOT a growing trend. People's natural doomsday perspective however, is very, very common.
Unless of course you're right, and the world is getting more violent, with heavy rises in crime, selfishness, evil, etc. However, reality and history beg to differ as modern society is far more civilized than EVER before. More tolerant, more accepting, less violent, less aggressive, fewer deaths, etc. The fact we don't openly attack other towns to raid them, commonly slaughter each other en mass, and battle our slaves to the death in arena combat...that's significantly less violent than in the past. Yet history also shows us that the human race, people, have not changed even a bit in thousands of years, if ever. We are still selfish and generous, still brutal and peaceful, still good and evil, lost and found, low in self esteem, and for most people high in selfish thought and full of ignorance.
For most people being polite and helpful is a sham. Eventually we all revert to our true colours.
Back in Febuary, after I was done with swtor I started up WoW to see how Cata had changed the world. Maybe I was new again, but I managed to help 3 people, just like it was the good old days. It's up to the individual to keep the spirit of good will alive. It's who you are at your core that determins who you will be. When I played Planetside I was a Combat Medic / Combat Engineer up to level 22.
The Bartle Test categories us as Socializers. Over time we can judge for our selves if the score should go up or come down. There is a psychology experiement that shows that people are less willing to help if more people are around. We beleive that some one else will help, and we are less needed. We don't treat other worse be caue there are more of them, but we feel less like heros. Playing the hero come naturally to me. It's what I do.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
I find most people in WoW are helpful.
Even a lot of the trolls who insult you will actualy help you out if you /tell them "Seriously though, can you help?"
I am itching to do real scientific research just to prove the overwhelming amount of players who are helpful in WoW, just to prove a point.
Unfortunately, I don't believe that facts would actually convince anyone differently of what they already forsee.
imho it is not exactly the number of people that matters here.....its the kind of people.
In the old days (going back to UO myself) all the people who played these games where adults, today the biggest group is kids who want to feel powerfull in this (anonymous) virtual world and they can get away with it......back in the old days of UO....people could call real people (GM's aka Game Masters) to resolve issues between players according the rules of the game.
These days when you report something you get an ingame mail saying (f*ck you) it is being looked in to, after that you dont even get feedback of what happend with it.
PS: I dont mean that all younger players are a-holes but lots of them love to get under the people's skin because you cant do anything about it......bullying isnt cool, but it still exists sadly. (one day they will grow up and realize it but that takes time).
Although I entirely agree it certainly feels that way, and I'd say it's more likely than not that you're right, but...
I am not entirely sure you are right to say that UO was mostly adults. When I played, I was a teenager, and I had a large amount of teenage friends who played as well. Even the oldest of my common friends were still only young adults in their early 20's, if that. Comparatively, finding a 30+ adult playing UO in its prime was rather difficult. It might have been because I was childish (being a child, of course) and I'm not saying I didn't know any adults, but the amount of 24-30 year olds were about as many as the 30+ year olds (including a 40+ and a 60+ year old!) and most were still in the age that is typical for gaming 13-28.
I'm NOT saying most weren't adults. I'm just saying that from what I know, it's POSSIBLE that most were actually young adults or teens, just the same as today. After all, I find just as many adults in WoW and SWTOR as I did in UO in its prime. This doesn't mean there were only kids in UO, but it DOES mean there are plenty of adults in WoW / SWTOR, and tons of them you can find online at any given moment.
So I'd argue that perhaps things haven't changed and there are just as many adults today as there were 10 years ago, and just as many kids. I believe we might only see more children in other games because there are MORE children (and MORE adults; more PEOPLE) but while adults are silent, children are typically vocal-- making there SEEM to be more children than adults, when there are simply more PEOPLE and the adults are just quieter.
I'm sure I wasn't the only teen or young adult setting off purple potions and throwing them at players and then running away to avoid the guards as I giggled to death.
Please do. While I appreciate your well-written response, I disagree with you on a few things. Yes, you're right, we don't have any statistical facts, but I don't acknowledge that as a valid argument as we don't have them. It's all from an empirical perspective, and can you blame them? Even though you're right, statistical evidence could prove this change, but you can't entirely dismiss several people having the same experience.
It's not a matter of doom-saying, but a personal experience these players share, myself included. I remember playing DAoC for three years and getting flamed once. ONCE. I can't even recount how many bad experiences I've had since vanilla WoW.
Again, not a matter of doom-saying, it's not, as you put it, foreseeing a change but noticing it. True, there are more helpful players than ever before, but you can't just ignore the fact that with them the unfriendly ones have become more as well - and looking at a felt percentage, the latter category is a lot larger than the former.
The reasoning for this perspective is not, as you said, that people are "only nice to people when the population is low", but rather with a growing population, behavior within a group changes, and that's not really a new observation. With a growing community, anonymity also grows, which was the base of many theses on why the tone within a community has become more hostile.
However, I'll give you this: Your point on having a doomsday perspective may come in to play here. Things most likely were not better "in the good old days", people have had bad experiences all along and there always have been bad people around. My argument is, however, that the tendency to value the past and being demotivated by a change in perception of today is not a reason to dismiss that opinion.
Let me point out that, in fact, I couldn't care less about these first world problems. I'm just having fun.
Smaller games tend to have friendlier communities. Its the size of the community, I think. Sure the game may affect it a little but I think the size is the primary thing.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
for me the difference from adult to kid is around the age of 18.......when i played UO i was in my 20's......but todays games are filled with 12 to 15 year old that realy think they can do just about anything anonymously.
Back in UO i dont think there were many 12 year old playing it.
To me an 18 year old is an adult (and i treat them like that too, with alot of respect).
Like i sayd b4 its not a diss at younger players......i have played with ex-guild members that where 30 or even 40+ that acted more childish then some of our 13 year old members.
But most adults tend to show more respect to other players tough imho.
I would blame on vanishing team gaming.
I still remember during the AO (Anarchy Online) days we use to do team missions and buff each other to fit items. After that came the days of solo grinding and crafting armor from farmed parts / crafting materials.
Thus came the days of open Pk.
During this change the multiplayer or role playing aspect of the game died. This thus killed the dependence among players. This killed interaction too. Along with all this came the auction house and trading became an automatic system.
Previously guilds had ample stuff going. Nowadays I log into any mmo and I see an ongoing chat with guild members hardly playing together. Most of the fantasy games released post 2008 had limited to no team gaming portions. We nowadays also have solo instances.
I have seen players nowadays look at mmo’s as a leveling competition. If you are pro and you know much about the game you will level like a rocket. This also kills the game as it opens many portions of the game within days and makes your in game economy suffer.
I have also felt the same feelings of lack of players helping each other or the community into nice conversations.
Players do not sit in front of instances anymore and yell for group. Players just queue up in auto group and join a party. The interaction part has changed from chat to voice servers too.
Somewhere the mmos have become more like a technician operating software and not a game where you play for fun.
We really do need mmos where interaction forms the basis of the game world.
Cheers
Sourajit Nandi
" Don't listen to anyone who tells you that you can't play this or that. That's nonsense. Make up your mind,and you'll never whine or repent about gaming hours anymore, then have a go at every Game. Open up the Internet, join in all the Mmorpgs you can. Go make the Guild. But never, never let them persuade you that things are too difficult or impossible. "
Once An Addict Always An Addict .
Yes, peoples in MMO's are less willing to help than in the past. Increase in player population is one reason.
Another one is that in the first MMO's you needed other players to be successful. Grouping/socializing was a must. Nowadays you can solo all or close to all content and socializing/communication is not required at all. Even if there is group content you don't need to talk to anyone. Just use a dungeon finder/LFG Tool or whatever and do the content with random pickups.
The typical player is different today compared to when the first MMORPG:s was released. Kill stealing and insults are common now. And cross server dungeon finders and cross server in general attracts the worst players. And makes everyone behave badly...
The games today are not intended to attract good people or to be nice virtual worlds. There is no reason to be nice when you play them and you will not be rewarded if you try. And people that try anyway will eventually give up when most other players behave like jerks and often get rewarded for that.
I normally would never kill steal in a game. But if someone is doing it to me I will perhaps do it myself when I later see that player and get a chance to do it. And perhaps KS anyone in that players guild if I get the impression they are all like that.
Eventually you will believe everyone is a jerk and there is no reason to be nice at all. You will become one yourself. The increase of players and modern MMO-design are both to blame. And are related.
This is pretty much what I mean. While it sounds a lot more pessimistic than I'd put it, this is pretty much it, and it reflects real life. People often try to be nice people, but when it's not rewarded or met with some form of punishment (e.g. your friendliness being abused), they begin to lean against that tendency. At best, they become more secluded (as happened with myself), at worst, well, Hurvart said it, they become what they despised.
Let me point out that, in fact, I couldn't care less about these first world problems. I'm just having fun.
I'm going to disagree with the premise of the OP, I really don't think the increased number of players has much to do with it, because basically, we still all play on servers with 2000-3000 active players at any one time, which is exactly how many I played with in DAOC back in 2002.
Also, I've played EVE which has over 65K players online with me at the same time, (OK, 10,000 each playing 6.5 accounts)
and found the community there to actually be better than the SWTOR community that I'm playing with now.
And this isn't to say the folks on my server are bad, I really couldn't say because as others have mentioned, game mechanics are such that I have no real need to interact with them, nor they me.
I am utterly self sufficent, either because when I have a question I can look it up online in seconds, and I never really need help. Oh sure, you can't do the +2 or +4 content w/o help, but I just skip it, plenty of other things to do to get to 50.
Back in the day I could have done the same, but it would have been very inefficent, therefore I was "encouraged" to group up with others in order to increase my leveling speed, improve rewards and reduce downtime between fights. (all common game mechanics that have largely been devalued in modern MMO's)
EVE had a different mechanic, it is a pretty hard game to understand, so even after studying all sorts of online guides I still needed the player base to answer many questions, and fortuately, never had a problem finding helpful folks to assist.
It's true, back in DAOC, my friends and I joined and one of them ran into a "vet" (game had been out for 6 months) and he gave him about 150 gold, which was truely a small fortune back in the day, especially to a bunch of noobs.
My friend gave each of us about 15 gold which greatly improved my playing experience and a great reason why I stayed with that title for over 2.75 years. (because the game was full of random acts of kindness you never see any more)
Again, I blame most of this on game mechanics. Back in DAOC, if you died you could release and rez, but it meant a long run back and you had to get to your grave to get back most (not all ) of the experience you lost. This could be hard to do in a challenging dungeon, and routinely the call would go out for a healer to come rez someone, and not only would a healer be willing to do it, but his entire party would fight their way to the downed player to rez them, with no payment expected and nothing more than a heartfelt thank you passed between the teams.
Contrast that with SWTOR, when I die I can just wait about 20 seconds and rez myself in total safety.
So I agree, I don't think the problem lies at all with the number of players, nor that the community is actually any worse today than it was back then. (well, it is a bit worse for a couple of reasons, but that is a post for a different thread) but rather players really aren't presented with the need to cooperate or assist, so left to themselves they rarely do anymore.
True, some of the perception is due to the Nostaligia Factor (the real term for this) where we see things in the past fondly, and probably overlook a lot of what was wrong, but in many cases as people have observered, the tone of these games has significantly changed even if it's a very difficult thing to measure.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
That's a good point. However, while player cooperation isn't enforced, couldn't that exactly be a reason for a "bad community"? After all, "bad community" could just be a label (fitting or not) for a certain behavior portrayed by that group; i.e. these aren't seperate factors but one stems from the other.
Let me point out that, in fact, I couldn't care less about these first world problems. I'm just having fun.
WoW is an untapped gold mine for psychology experiment. The experiemnt I saw on 20/20 had people lead into a room, as they entered hey past a workman on a ladder. From in side the room they hear the workman and laddr crash to the ground. In small groups people rushed to see if the could help. In large groups they waited. The finding being demonstarted was that in smaller gorups individuals were more likely to respond and come to help. In larger groups, people tend to expect someone else to go help.
I'm sure if you got funding and access to WoW's data you could show that a number of people are helpfull regardless of population or size.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
I think that the amount of players devalued the way games are developed. Since MMOs have gone from complex to linear, our average age drops 10 years.
Yet the origional thread that brought up this topic was about how people were nicer back a few years ago in the same games.
Look at WoW now, look at FFXI now, look at nearly any game that has survived a long time, the community is worse.
People just dont' wanna help each other any more.
Its all me, all the time.