Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Fuzzy Avatars Solved! Please re-upload your avatar if it was fuzzy!

EVE Online: The End of The Mittani Era

2456712

Comments

  • MothanosMothanos ArnhemPosts: 1,860Member Uncommon

    Eve the most hardcore game out there.

    Life's are ruined in a split second.

    Moments of victory are shared between brothers.

    Miners smoking pot all day while bashing rocks hours on end.

     

    What The Mitany did was not something to be proud of, and he said he was sorry.

    He used his position in a bad way and should be punished a little.

     

    But things like this and much worse things happens evryday in eve....so i dont understand the fuzz about it tbh.

    Ive lost ships worth months of farming in a blink of an eye by not playing it save.

     

    Eve aint no home for cry baby's and weak at hart players, its a dog eat dog world and even the hunted get hunted.

    Take it like a man and move on.

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member

    Originally posted by RefMinor

    Originally posted by bunnyhopper

    Originally posted by RefMinor

    Oh my, let it go.... I think you have managed to put across your rage about it all in the last 'over 9000!' posts you have made about the subject.

     

    Perhaps make moaning about it part of your sig or something.

     

    After every post I let it go, but then someone seems to wait a while and then makes a dumb post and the circle repeats.

    So you think repeating yourself ad nauseam is going to actually make people change their minds on here then? Perhaps commendable, certainly delusional.

     

    Maybe the "circle wouldn't repeat" if you just ignored what you consider to be dumb posts after the nth time of trying to explain the same view point?

     

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper


    Originally posted by RefMinor


    Originally posted by bunnyhopper


    Originally posted by RefMinor

    Oh my, let it go.... I think you have managed to put across your rage about it all in the last 'over 9000!' posts you have made about the subject.

     

    Perhaps make moaning about it part of your sig or something.

     

    After every post I let it go, but then someone seems to wait a while and then makes a dumb post and the circle repeats.

    So you think repeating yourself ad nauseam is going to actually make people change their minds on here then? Perhaps commendable, certainly delusional.

     

    Maybe the "circle wouldn't repeat" if you just ignored what you consider to be dumb posts after the nth time of trying to explain the same view point?

     

     

    It's kind of becoming second nature now, it won't change the idiots minds but it helps ease mine.
  • OzmodanOzmodan Hilliard, OHPosts: 7,183Member Uncommon

    Gee Ross, LEARN to write!  It was painstaking trying to extract the storyline out of that dialog.

    I am always amazed that players think they can trust the goons, when they are completely untrustworthy.  As to Eve, as usual, everything gets blown out of proportion.  It is both sad and amusing at the same time.

  • ElderRatElderRat Syracuse, NYPosts: 899Member

    Originally posted by Zaltark

    Eve breeds cyber bullies. Have yal played the game? All you do is gank unknown people.

    that is not true. I have played and never ganked anyone - I mined and avoided being ganked.  Is there a contingent of gankers in game - of course would full loot whole word pvp game doesn't have them?  It is not the only thing you can do in game nor does  everyone do it.  That is my experience with the game that I am sharing.  Wonder if you have played the game? Just asking.

    Currently bored with MMO's.

  • EmwynEmwyn MoatshirePosts: 546Member

    ..

    the poster formerly known as melangel :P

  • FaelanFaelan CopenhagenPosts: 826Member Uncommon

    I'm so done with EVE. Not just the community which really showed its true colors this time around, but CCPs vision of the game which is so incompatible with what I want out of the game. Just a shame there's no good sandbox or space MMO alternative. But perhaps that's good for CCP, if you know what I mean.

    I'm a big ol' fluffy carewolf. Be afraid. Be very afraid.

  • vorpal28vorpal28 MIddlesbroughPosts: 103Member

    The reason for this is there is no free speech, and never has been, say something thats not agreed by the masses and you'll be censored so fast your feet won't touch the ground.

    Upshot being you don't dare say anything thats not mainstream in fear of being flamed to death.

    Here's a qoute for those who know and sums it up rather succinctly:

     "...Go back to bed, America. Your government has figured out how it all transpired. Go back to bed, America. Your government is in control again. Here. Here's American Gladiators. Watch this, shut up. Go back to bed, America. Here is American Gladiators. Here is 56 channels of it! Watch these pituitary retards bang their fucking skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom. Here you go, America! You are free to do as we tell you! You are free to do what we tell you!.."

     

    If you believe something say it, you can only be wrong, you might even be right, but it's your right to speak and be heard, right or wrong.

  • SkexRelboreSkexRelbore Austin, TXPosts: 30Member

    EVE is a game about blowing up each others stuff. Someone who can't grasp that really needs to find a new game to play. Anyone who threatens suicide over the loss of assets in this game really really needs to find a new game to play. 

    I personally think it was obvious that The MIttani didn't believe that The Wis was sincere in his threats as such I don't veiw his statement so much as an incitement to "bully" someoene with mental health problems but rather as a suggestion to call his bluff. 

    The Jager and the circumstances just made it seem meaner than the actual intent.

    Further calling someone playing a game in the way the game is designed to be played a "cyber bully" really dminishes the term.

    Suicide ganking a guy with a fleet of 20 mackinaws in EVE (can you say botter?) is not cyber bullying. Even telling your alliance and buddies to do so is not cyber bullying.

    It's called playing the game.

    http://www.stopcyberbullying.org/what_is_cyberbullying_exactly.html

    "Cyberbullying" is when a child, preteen or teen is tormented, threatened, harassed, humiliated, embarrassed or otherwise targeted by another child, preteen or teen using the Internet, interactive and digital technologies or mobile phones. It has to have a minor on both sides, or at least have been instigated by a minor against another minor. Once adults become involved, it is plain and simple cyber-harassment or cyberstalking. Adult cyber-harassment or cyberstalking is NEVER called cyberbullying.

    Neither party in this incident were minors so it was by definition not cyber bullying.

     

    Did The MIttani's actions cross a line? Well The Mittani seemed to think so, so I'll defer to him. He felt bad enough over his actions once he sobered up and everything sunk in that in addition to issuing both a public and private appology and resigning his CSM Chairmanship he also sent the "victim" a substantial sum of in game currency (about $700 worth).  

    Honestly the appology and isk should have been enough. But no not for those who only care about this issue as a tool to continue their vendetta's against The Mittani. Those who go on about how awful his behavior was while making threats against his wife and dog in order to "teach him a lesson". 

    And there is the fundamental truth of all this. None of the holier than thou bloviators care about the supposed victim in all this, they don't care about bullying or griefing all they see is a chance to tear down a hated enemy.  

    Alex plays a bad guy in a video game and for one short moment under very specific circumstances he slipped and let his in game character manifest into his real world words and even then it should have been obvious that he was speaking "in character" he was wearing a wizard's hat FFS! 

    The actions of his enemies are many times worse than what The Mittani has done, they've allowed their hatred of the Character cloud their view of the human playing it and have made real life threats against people who have no presense in the game world what so ever because of that hatred. 

    Seriously, hating Alex over the actions of The Mittani is like hating James Earle Jones over the actions of Darth Vader. But we've got people playing this game who are so unballanced that they don't see this. And they claim he's the sociopath.

     

     

  • EcocesEcoces Chicago, ILPosts: 879Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Mothanos

    But things like this and much worse things happens evryday in eve....so i dont understand the fuzz about it tbh.

    Ive lost ships worth months of farming in a blink of an eye by not playing it save.

     

    yes you losing months of farming time is MUCH worse than some jackass telling everyone they should try to get this guy to commit suicide.

     

    i think what video game players forget is to most people we're dorks, nerds and wastes of society. most people if you told them you spent the weekend getting money in a video game would give you a funny look and treat you as a no life loser. remember that next time you feel like you're better than another player, you're playing a video game you're a button pusher nothing more. thats my favorite comeback when some gaming "pro" tries to insult me

     

    "haha i kicked you're a** ... you suck!"

    "grats on being able to push buttons better than i can"

     

    now don't get me wrong there is nothing wrong with playing video games but when you get to the point where you think you're some "pro" player or l33t raider or even take it to the extreme that Mittani or whatever his name is did ... you need a reality check.

  • EcocesEcoces Chicago, ILPosts: 879Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by SkexRelbore

    It's called playing the game.

    http://www.stopcyberbullying.org/what_is_cyberbullying_exactly.html

    "Cyberbullying" is when a child, preteen or teen is tormented, threatened, harassed, humiliated, embarrassed or otherwise targeted by another child, preteen or teen using the Internet, interactive and digital technologies or mobile phones. It has to have a minor on both sides, or at least have been instigated by a minor against another minor. Once adults become involved, it is plain and simple cyber-harassment or cyberstalking. Adult cyber-harassment or cyberstalking is NEVER called cyberbullying.



     

    um playing the game is one thing, going to a party for the game and telling the people there to harrass this guy and try to get him to commit suicide IS cyber bullying.

    I can't believe people are defending this guy. you guys really make the rest of us gamers look bad by confirming the whole gamer stereotype of being bottom feeding no life losers.

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    Originally posted by SkexRelbore

    EVE is a game about blowing up each others stuff. Someone who can't grasp that really needs to find a new game to play. Anyone who threatens suicide over the loss of assets in this game really really needs to find a new game to play. 
    I personally think it was obvious that The MIttani didn't believe that The Wis was sincere in his threats as such I don't veiw his statement so much as an incitement to "bully" someoene with mental health problems but rather as a suggestion to call his bluff. 
    The Jager and the circumstances just made it seem meaner than the actual intent.
    Further calling someone playing a game in the way the game is designed to be played a "cyber bully" really dminishes the term.
    Suicide ganking a guy with a fleet of 20 mackinaws in EVE (can you say botter?) is not cyber bullying. Even telling your alliance and buddies to do so is not cyber bullying.
    It's called playing the game.
    http://www.stopcyberbullying.org/what_is_cyberbullying_exactly.html
    "Cyberbullying" is when a child, preteen or teen is tormented, threatened, harassed, humiliated, embarrassed or otherwise targeted by another child, preteen or teen using the Internet, interactive and digital technologies or mobile phones. It has to have a minor on both sides, or at least have been instigated by a minor against another minor. Once adults become involved, it is plain and simple cyber-harassment or cyberstalking. Adult cyber-harassment or cyberstalking is NEVER called cyberbullying.
    Neither party in this incident were minors so it was by definition not cyber bullying.
     
    Did The MIttani's actions cross a line? Well The Mittani seemed to think so, so I'll defer to him. He felt bad enough over his actions once he sobered up and everything sunk in that in addition to issuing both a public and private appology and resigning his CSM Chairmanship he also sent the "victim" a substantial sum of in game currency (about $700 worth).  
    Honestly the appology and isk should have been enough. But no not for those who only care about this issue as a tool to continue their vendetta's against The Mittani. Those who go on about how awful his behavior was while making threats against his wife and dog in order to "teach him a lesson". 
    And there is the fundamental truth of all this. None of the holier than thou bloviators care about the supposed victim in all this, they don't care about bullying or griefing all they see is a chance to tear down a hated enemy.  
    Alex plays a bad guy in a video game and for one short moment under very specific circumstances he slipped and let his in game character manifest into his real world words and even then it should have been obvious that he was speaking "in character" he was wearing a wizard's hat FFS! 
    The actions of his enemies are many times worse than what The Mittani has done, they've allowed their hatred of the Character cloud their view of the human playing it and have made real life threats against people who have no presense in the game world what so ever because of that hatred. 
    Seriously, hating Alex over the actions of The Mittani is like hating James Earle Jones over the actions of Darth Vader. But we've got people playing this game who are so unballanced that they don't see this. And they claim he's the sociopath.
     
     

     

    Hitting someone's ships in game is not bullying, using a public platform to call on people to do so in game with the stated aim of trying to get him to kill himself is a form of bullying, quite simple, comparing it to an actor in form of passive entertainment is a specious argument. I have no hatred of the Mittani, I don't regularly play eve, but both myself and the Mittani can see his actions were very wrong, but others seem hell bent on justifying or minimising them.
  • SkexRelboreSkexRelbore Austin, TXPosts: 30Member

    Originally posted by Ecoces

    Originally posted by SkexRelbore



    It's called playing the game.

    http://www.stopcyberbullying.org/what_is_cyberbullying_exactly.html

    "Cyberbullying" is when a child, preteen or teen is tormented, threatened, harassed, humiliated, embarrassed or otherwise targeted by another child, preteen or teen using the Internet, interactive and digital technologies or mobile phones. It has to have a minor on both sides, or at least have been instigated by a minor against another minor. Once adults become involved, it is plain and simple cyber-harassment or cyberstalking. Adult cyber-harassment or cyberstalking is NEVER called cyberbullying.



     

    um playing the game is one thing, going to a party for the game and telling the people there to harrass this guy and try to get him to commit suicide IS cyber bullying.

    I can't believe people are defending this guy. you guys really make the rest of us gamers look bad by confirming the whole gamer stereotype of being bottom feeding no life losers.


     

    No it's not. It may constitute harrassment but it's not cyberbullying.  Cyberbullying is a very specific thing that takes place between minors not adults.

    Calling this incident "Cyberbullying" is a missuse of the term. 

    Oh and I guess I didn't make it clear enough that the quote you decided to reply too is a cut and past from the stopcyberbullying website.

    Talk about making gamers look bad. 

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member

    Originally posted by Faelan

    I'm so done with EVE. Not just the community which really showed its true colors this time around, but CCPs vision of the game which is so incompatible with what I want out of the game. Just a shame there's no good sandbox or space MMO alternative. But perhaps that's good for CCP, if you know what I mean.

    There's no good sandbox space alternative because without the ffa, looting and political backstabbing there would be fuck all depth to the game in comparison to EVE. If you know what I mean.

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • DragonantisDragonantis DublinPosts: 974Member

    Everyone pays for thier actions one way or another. This man is no different.

  • n3v3rriv3rn3v3rriv3r NowherePosts: 349Member Uncommon

    "some" and you didnt... oh how cute

  • DinastyDinasty Posts: 110Member Uncommon

    I took nothing away from this article at all. The author is quite the windbag for sure.

     

    For one, he should get a permanent ban. This "temp ban" is a freaking joke, CCP is a failure here.

    And two, who gives a crap if it affects his real life? If you're a pathetic enough person to dish out the douchbaggery, whether it be in the virtual world or real, be ready and willing to face the consequences... period.

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    Originally posted by SkexRelbore


    Originally posted by Ecoces


    Originally posted by SkexRelbore




    It's called playing the game.


    http://www.stopcyberbullying.org/what_is_cyberbullying_exactly.html


    "Cyberbullying" is when a child, preteen or teen is tormented, threatened, harassed, humiliated, embarrassed or otherwise targeted by another child, preteen or teen using the Internet, interactive and digital technologies or mobile phones. It has to have a minor on both sides, or at least have been instigated by a minor against another minor. Once adults become involved, it is plain and simple cyber-harassment or cyberstalking. Adult cyber-harassment or cyberstalking is NEVER called cyberbullying.




     

    um playing the game is one thing, going to a party for the game and telling the people there to harrass this guy and try to get him to commit suicide IS cyber bullying.

    I can't believe people are defending this guy. you guys really make the rest of us gamers look bad by confirming the whole gamer stereotype of being bottom feeding no life losers.


     

    No it's not. It may constitute harrassment but it's not cyberbullying.  Cyberbullying is a very specific thing that takes place between minors not adults.

    Calling this incident "Cyberbullying" is a missuse of the term. 

    Oh and I guess I didn't make it clear enough that the quote you decided to reply too is a cut and past from the stopcyberbullying website.

    Talk about making gamers look bad. 

     

    And The National Crime Prevention Council defines it as "when the Internet, cell phones or other devices are used to send or post text or images intended to hurt or embarrass another person" Other researchers use similar language to describe the phenomenon with no age definition.

     

    We can all produce quotes and definitions, as someone who deals with workplace grievances I can produce many studies of workplace bullying which by definition cannot be limited to children and yet are still defined as bullying.
  • TalonsinTalonsin Posts: 1,468Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by SkexRelbore

    http://www.stopcyberbullying.org/what_is_cyberbullying_exactly.html

    "Cyberbullying" is when a child, preteen or teen is tormented, threatened, harassed, humiliated, embarrassed or otherwise targeted by another child, preteen or teen using the Internet, interactive and digital technologies or mobile phones. It has to have a minor on both sides, or at least have been instigated by a minor against another minor. Once adults become involved, it is plain and simple cyber-harassment or cyberstalking. Adult cyber-harassment or cyberstalking is NEVER called cyberbullying.

     

    You are so wrong on so many counts that it would take me much longer than I am willing to spend to help you sort out your mixed up ideas.  Let me start by posting this:

     

    The term "cyberbullying" was first coined and defined by Canadian educator and anti-bullying activist Bill Belsey, as "the use of information and communication technologies to support deliberate, repeated, and hostile behavior by an individual or group, that is intended to harm others." 

     

    The website you quoted is devoted to stopping teen cyberbullying hence they use the word teen it in their definition.  Most adults are not committing suicide from cyberbullying like teens are so the organization you quoted focuses on young adults.  Your analogy about James Earl Jones is complete nonsense since Mr. Jones did not ask people to email an emotionally unstable person and tell them to commit suicide.  A better analogy would be if Mittani found a kid with down syndrome who liked to eat boogers and then asked thousands of people to mail the kid boogers because he thought it was funny.  Either way, Mittani personally and NOT IN GAME asked thousands of real people (MANY OF WHOM ARE IN HIS ALLIANCE AND DO WHATEVER HE SAYS) to convince a known emotionally unstable person to take his own life. 

    You can paint it any way you like but it was wrong and regardless of the apology, shows what kind of person Alex truely is.

     

     

  • haplo602haplo602 Posts: 212Member Uncommon

    Ross: Learn to write. If a person NOT familiar with the story tries to read your piece, they have no clue what you are talking about. Even one familiar with the story has trouble extracting any meaning from you piece.

     

    To the topic at hand: This is just stupid overreaction. It's the usual metagaming scenario we can see often ingame and on the forums.

  • MadimorgaMadimorga Atlanta, GAPosts: 2,014Member Common
    While I don't play Eve, I often read your column. You have a richly beautiful style that shows great respect for the written word and for the intelligence of your readers.

    image

    I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

    ~Albert Einstein

  • haplo602haplo602 Posts: 212Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Talonsin

    Originally posted by SkexRelbore

    http://www.stopcyberbullying.org/what_is_cyberbullying_exactly.html

    "Cyberbullying" is when a child, preteen or teen is tormented, threatened, harassed, humiliated, embarrassed or otherwise targeted by another child, preteen or teen using the Internet, interactive and digital technologies or mobile phones. It has to have a minor on both sides, or at least have been instigated by a minor against another minor. Once adults become involved, it is plain and simple cyber-harassment or cyberstalking. Adult cyber-harassment or cyberstalking is NEVER called cyberbullying.

     

    You are so wrong on so many counts that it would take me much longer than I am willing to spend to help you sort out your mixed up ideas.  Let me start by posting this:

     

    The term "cyberbullying" was first coined and defined by Canadian educator and anti-bullying activist Bill Belsey, as "the use of information and communication technologies to support deliberate, repeated, and hostile behavior by an individual or group, that is intended to harm others." 

     

    The website you quoted is devoted to stopping teen cyberbullying hence they use the word teen it in their definition.  Most adults are not committing suicide from cyberbullying like teens are so the organization you quoted focuses on young adults.  Your analogy about James Earl Jones is complete nonsense since Mr. Jones did not ask people to email an emotionally unstable person and tell them to commit suicide.  A better analogy would be if Mittani found a kid with down syndrome who liked to eat boogers and then asked thousands of people to mail the kid boogers because he thought it was funny.  Either way, Mittani personally and NOT IN GAME asked thousands of real people (MANY OF WHOM ARE IN HIS ALLIANCE AND DO WHATEVER HE SAYS) to convince a known emotionally unstable person to take his own life. 

    You can paint it any way you like but it was wrong and regardless of the apology, shows what kind of person Alex truely is.

     

     


     

    And if this was done on the forums and not at fanfest, would that make a difference ? The message would be the same, the audience would be the same, the participants would be the same. But nobody would give a damn.

  • FaelanFaelan CopenhagenPosts: 826Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by bunnyhopper

    Originally posted by Faelan

    I'm so done with EVE. Not just the community which really showed its true colors this time around, but CCPs vision of the game which is so incompatible with what I want out of the game. Just a shame there's no good sandbox or space MMO alternative. But perhaps that's good for CCP, if you know what I mean.

    There's no good sandbox space alternative because without the ffa, looting and political backstabbing there would be fuck all depth to the game in comparison to EVE. If you know what I mean.


     

    I don't see why sandbox can't be done without FFA PvP. It would be different. It may not have the kind of depth you're looking for, but I'm sure it could be done with other kinds of depth that doesn't revolve around Internet drama and people being d*ckheads. But this is nor really a discussion suitable for this thread, so I'll leave it at that.

    I'm a big ol' fluffy carewolf. Be afraid. Be very afraid.

  • SkexRelboreSkexRelbore Austin, TXPosts: 30Member

    Originally posted by RefMinor

     

    Hitting someone's ships in game is not bullying, using a public platform to call on people to do so in game with the stated aim of trying to get him to kill himself is a form of bullying, quite simple, comparing it to an actor in form of passive entertainment is a specious argument. I have no hatred of the Mittani, I don't regularly play eve, but both myself and the Mittani can see his actions were very wrong, but others seem hell bent on justifying or minimising them.

     

     

    Do you even read what you are replying to? As I said The Mittani stepped over the line he recognizes that he stepped over that line and took actions to correct his mistake.

    But those who are calling this cyberbullying are for one misusing the term (which has a specific definition that makes it clear that it doesn't apply in this case) further those who continue to engage in character assasination of the person behind the character and most especially those who feel justified in making real life threats against the man and his family over the actions of his in game persona are doing something much much worse and far more vile than what Alex did when playing the part of The Mittani on the alliance pannel. 

    It comes down to what you think Alex's intent was, and whether you think Alex thought that The Wis was sincere in his threat (turned out he wasn't sincere at all BTW) . If he thought it was a sincere threat then yeah it's a pretty awful thing to say. However if he thought The Wis was just blowing smoke then it was just a dumb thing to say.

    The question is whether Alex's actions were dumb or evil. Personaly I fall on the thinking it was just dumb side. It was dumb because it should have been obvious how people would take it. It was dumb because of the risk that he may have been wrong on his read of The Wis's intent and the fact that  the downside of being wrong was far greater than the satisfaction of being right.

    People do dumb things all the damned time, even otherwise smart people. But we don't tar and feather every person who does so nor do we permanently pin inappropriate labels on them. 

    Oh and what's different between an actor playing a role and a gamer role playing a character? The Mittani is a character that Alex plays just as Skex is a Character I play. I'm not a spaceship captain any more than The Mittani is the king of a space empire. The only difference between that an what an actor does is who writes the script. 

    EVE is a GAME, It is a game that takes place in a setting where immmortals try to destroy and undermine each other to their own profit. It's a ruthless world where the most valuable commodity is trust. In this world The Mittani is the leader of most despised group of bad guys in the game who are known for scamming, suicide ganking and general asshattery. 

    The alliance pannel is an extension of that game. The people on it are all there in their respective "roles" so it's not particularly suprising or unexpected that there would be some bleed over of in game persona's. It was an alliance pannel with a presentation about the alliance as such Alex was clearly in the "role" of The Mittani (again the wizard's hat should be your first clue that the context was in character).

    Understand, I'm not justifying what Alex did, it was dumb everyone pretty much admits it was dumb. But it wasn't evil and it wasn't cyberbullying. 

     

     

  • keddrenkeddren Manassas Park, VAPosts: 2Member

    Originally posted by Talonsin












     Either way, Mittani personally and NOT IN GAME asked thousands of real people (MANY OF WHOM ARE IN HIS ALLIANCE AND DO WHATEVER HE SAYS) to convince a known emotionally unstable person to take his own life




    Except that's bullshit.  The story broke days after the event in question.  When contacted, the victim (who the author of this piece misidentified as a scam victim, by the way) said that he had not heard about the incident and that he had not been contacted by anyone.  





    So it turns out you're wrong and stupid and should feel bad about spreading disinformation.





     





    Edit: fuck me the formating on this comment system is retarded.




     




     

Sign In or Register to comment.