Geez....another thread created that is attempting to negatively stereotype those that enjoy something the OP doesnt. Who wudda thunk it?
Rash assumptions from an ignorant person. I don't think I ever stated my own preference or opinion a single time in this thread. In fact, I merely stated that I, a roleplayer, often don't read the text. I never stated I did not enjoy it when I did, the reasons I skip the text, or if I had a desire or not to abolish writers in MMORPG's.
Typically the OP of many threads starts a conversation, not to discuss his own beliefs and force others in check with a closed mind, but to start interesting conversation and listen to other people's opinions or thoughts on the matter. This is often done through different tactics or strategies to get responses out of people.
Needlessly gloating and pretending to be intelligent by sarcastically predicting someone who you arrogantly think is predictable...is simple childish at best. I'm sorry, but fail. Total fail.
If you would like to know my opinion, simply ask. Assumptions never do anyone good, especially if you're looking for evidence to support your assumptions. (Assumptions are not evidence enough to support your other assumptions, just in case you thought differently...)
Negatively stereotype? The only people I negatively stereotype are those who refuse to read. Since you assume I, the OP, do NOT enjoy reading quest text ("something the OP doesnt [enjoy]") I assume that you think I'm negatively stereotyping the readers and the more intelligent, mature roleplaying crowd. Quite the opposite of reality indeed....
Might I suggest re-reading the Original Post and making sure you void yourself of all assumptions first?
What a fucking crock.
Dont shovel shit, and expect everyone to eat it pal. Proclaiming folks need VO cause they have ADD, or some other mental defecincy isnt planted in fact, it is simply stereotyping.
Like I said, the stereotypes could fall the other way as well, but I realize folks choose things on preference. Not some mystical IQ rating, or other apptitude in technical skills, which some of you would have us believe.
We know what you are about. Dont give us a thesis trying to dismiss it. The OP, plus your follow up posts were pretty evident. You want a sandbox, and without quests since no one can read anyways. Thus I think my reply was fair.
Quests are part of themepark gaming. It would be no different than me going on about sandboxes, and asking why they bother putting in Owen since that is one of the least utilized parts. Just because I dont enjoy it, doesnt mean that others wont.
Like I said, it is a preference thing, and since it appears enough people engage in quests, they will remain in gaming. Just the same as themeparks will keep having a much higher percentage of the total MMO playerbase. You are welcome to spin that one as well.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
I think people, like myself, tend to glaze over the text in MMOs because they are a different kind of game. Let me explain. Most single-player games focus on story and gameplay. MMORPGs are very mechanical. By that, I mean that numbers rule the day. The reason why we go out and kill ten boars isn't for the story, it's to get exp and money for better gear... i.e. rewards. Whereas a single-player RPG, you're killing the ten boars to progress the story. Keep in mind that I'm speaking generally here, and by ten boars, I'm referring to any random quest. Many games try to make an MMO based around a story, but it rubs many the wrong way. Like many, I think that lore is great in an MMO. It establishes atmosphere, and gives depth and purpose to the world. However, making it too much all about your character causes a disconnect, because you know that it's not... it's a massively multilpayer game in a wolrd that doesn't change based on your actions. There's no real end; the "end" in MMOs is guaged on how big your epeen is. It's a victory for mechanics, not plot, or characters, or anything else. That's why I think stories in MMOs never quite set right.
I want text.I often don't hear what the voice actors say properly.There is nothing wrong with my hearing either... lol.
They just speak wierdly or with an american accent I sometimes fail to hear a word so if I can read it all the better.In mmo's I always without fail read the text of every quest I do the first time I do a quest.
How many times do you get people not reading what the NPC says then has to ask in chat 'uhhh what do I do now?'so annoying.
No we don't. Look, at how many people complained they just spacebarred there way through SWTOR, they didn't care anymore about the storyline when voice acted than when having to read it.
Why? It's simple really, it's due to the fact there's quest helpers everywhere directing them right to their target.
Remove off them and make it so the quest text actually provides the instructions and clues they player needs to actually complete the mission and they'll have to care a lot more about what is written or said.
Otherwise you're correct, no real need to waste a lot of cash on story
Agreed. I don't remember the last time I read quest text. Why do I need to read five paragraphs of text to explain why I should kill 5 boars that are standing ten feet away?
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
I dont mind text, aslong as it provides a halfway believeable and meaningful reason for why i am supposed to kill that boars, bears or whatever.
Plus, the world around me has to at least try to represent what is being told via the quest text.
For example, WoW, Human starter zone. You are supposed to kill some boars, which are standing around, posing no obvious threat, like attacking the people there. There are Stormwind guards in full armor and weapons nearby, also just standing around, obviously not occupied with another task, like fighting. Why the heck should i do this?
I read the text for alittle in WoW... levelling a BE the first time through ghostlands was epic with the quest arc there! And then bringing the necklace to Sylvanas and her singing was badass.
But by the 8 or 9th character... I was skimming through everything, and then they added the ingame quest helper... I might as well have been illiturate.
I read the text for alittle in WoW... levelling a BE the first time through ghostlands was epic with the quest arc there! And then bringing the necklace to Sylvanas and her singing was badass.
But by the 8 or 9th character... I was skimming through everything, and then they added the ingame quest helper... I might as well have been illiturate.
I think people, like myself, tend to glaze over the text in MMOs because they are a different kind of game. Let me explain. Most single-player games focus on story and gameplay. MMORPGs are very mechanical. By that, I mean that numbers rule the day. The reason why we go out and kill ten boars isn't for the story, it's to get exp and money for better gear... i.e. rewards. Whereas a single-player RPG, you're killing the ten boars to progress the story. Keep in mind that I'm speaking generally here, and by ten boars, I'm referring to any random quest. Many games try to make an MMO based around a story, but it rubs many the wrong way. Like many, I think that lore is great in an MMO. It establishes atmosphere, and gives depth and purpose to the world. However, making it too much all about your character causes a disconnect, because you know that it's not... it's a massively multilpayer game in a wolrd that doesn't change based on your actions. There's no real end; the "end" in MMOs is guaged on how big your epeen is. It's a victory for mechanics, not plot, or characters, or anything else. That's why I think stories in MMOs never quite set right.
That is a HUGE factor. If the quality is absolutely terrible or predictable I'm more likely to skim then read. If it's interesting I'll read every word
How would a good text for a farmer to tell you to kill 10 rats look?
Even if you took the 10 best authors in the world they could not write a good flavortext for 90% of the MMO texts. And voice acting it wont help either.
What does help somewhat is if you at least see something happen and have to figure out how to deal with it. But those dang rats need to stop spawning after you killed them, at least for 5 minutes or so.
What we really need to get rid off is that idiotic quest window that tells you just what to do, just deal with the situation and get the flavor text after you actually help the farmer if you must have it.
How would a good text for a farmer to tell you to kill 10 rats look?
A well written description of the cutscene in Skyrim that ask you to kill all the bandits in a cave?
In a none instanced MMO that usually just would be you killing some of the bandits and leaving the rest.
It is a lot harder to write things for a MMO than a singleplayer game unless you instance up the entire game and frankly do that take away the massive part leaving a single player game for you.
How would a good text for a farmer to tell you to kill 10 rats look?
A well written description of the cutscene in Skyrim that ask you to kill all the bandits in a cave?
In a none instanced MMO that usually just would be you killing some of the bandits and leaving the rest.
It is a lot harder to write things for a MMO than a singleplayer game unless you instance up the entire game and frankly do that take away the massive part leaving a single player game for you.
Do a multi-player version of that (instanced group quests), or use phasing. The massive part is not conducive to adventure anyway. Small group content is the best.
Players who build a virtual world that evolves don't need a story. The world IS the story. Wher the players have written their own lore by the way they have played their game over time. This is very difficult to achieve in a Theme Park since the whole premise of a TP is "Hey! come play in our world"
The whole concept of "Quest" has been diminished to the point where current games are simply removing the entire concept and embedding them into the game invisible to the user.
But that's what you get when you take what amounts to an errand and label it as a "quest"
Anarchy Online had some of the best quest chains. They were long and difficult and actually done well. And when you were finsihed, it had some real meaning to your game.
Players who build a virtual world that evolves don't need a story. The world IS the story. Wher the players have written their own lore by the way they have played their game over time. This is very difficult to achieve in a Theme Park since the whole premise of a TP is "Hey! come play in our world"
The whole concept of "Quest" has been diminished to the point where current games are simply removing the entire concept and embedding them into the game invisible to the user.
But that's what you get when you take what amounts to an errand and label it as a "quest"
Anarchy Online had some of the best quest chains. They were long and difficult and actually done well. And when you were finsihed, it had some real meaning to your game.
Not all MMOs are virtual worlds. In fact, there is an increasing trend to go the other way ,... small group content with a lobby .. like in Diablo 3 (which is a ARPG with some MMO elements).
I think people, like myself, tend to glaze over the text in MMOs because they are a different kind of game. Let me explain. Most single-player games focus on story and gameplay. MMORPGs are very mechanical. By that, I mean that numbers rule the day. The reason why we go out and kill ten boars isn't for the story, it's to get exp and money for better gear... i.e. rewards. Whereas a single-player RPG, you're killing the ten boars to progress the story. Keep in mind that I'm speaking generally here, and by ten boars, I'm referring to any random quest. Many games try to make an MMO based around a story, but it rubs many the wrong way. Like many, I think that lore is great in an MMO. It establishes atmosphere, and gives depth and purpose to the world. However, making it too much all about your character causes a disconnect, because you know that it's not... it's a massively multilpayer game in a wolrd that doesn't change based on your actions. There's no real end; the "end" in MMOs is guaged on how big your epeen is. It's a victory for mechanics, not plot, or characters, or anything else. That's why I think stories in MMOs never quite set right.
thats why I like swtor
Admittedly, I've been an advocate against SW:TOR, but I'm not going to go into all of my reasoning now. However, I have no porblem with the people whom enjoy it. I'm glad that there is a variety of games to choose from... more or less. Hopefully, the trend to follow the WoW/EQ formula will die out soon. Personally, I've never really been able to get into most MMO chracter stories, though I haven't really enjoyed a single-player game's story recently, either. I would choose a good linear story over a myrid of shallow "choices" in a game any day. That's just me, though.
I'd imagine that creating all these quests with books worth of quest text (paragraph after paragraph of quest text eventually turns into an enormous amount of written work) would be very expensive, very time consuming, and to be honest: very very niche.
The amount of people who actually read the quest text are niche, almost as much so IMO as those who roleplay walk, desire FFA PvP, or seek a permadeath solution. Yet these writers take time, money, and most of all a significant portion of patching, updates, and expansion content.
If you do not know what I am talking about or who, you may be unaware of how many people play games like Mass Effect and literally skip through the entire storyline and dialogue just to beat the game...(if you don't know, Mass Effect is a heavily dialogue, story-driven game). Yet this game has voice acting and action in the scenes, making it far easier for the ADHD generation to handle. Now imagine those who actually read quest text...wow.
Even I, a lover of storylines and roleplaying, do not read the majority of quest text (or simply browse through it, often as a requirement to make the quest easier). Simply sad, very very sad.
Try going to any sort of article, such as one I recently read on AOL NEWS which stated "Catholic Priests help to prevent sexual abuse of minors." and there are, no kidding, scores of comments saying something similar to "Wow yet another Article of Catholic Priests molesting innocent kids. This needs to stop!" with comprehension failure with the TITLE itself, let alone the lengthy article painting the priests as GOOD people, not bad. ANother article the same week with two neighbors and the neighbor shot the other man when the man confronted him over the shooter's dog pooping on his lawn. Comments galore failing to comprehend that the dog owner WAS the shooter, and that the man pictured in the article was the murder victim NOT the criminal. Simply amazing, but obviously reading is niche in our society.
Want to mass market to as many people as possible? Get rid of all reading, and the money should flow in much faster.
Furthermore, forums across the internet-- plenty of evidence in this forum and the next, clearly shows that a large amount of people simply cannot read. Whether they fail to read or comprehend simple concepts because of laziness, trolling, or outright stupidity: they simply cannot read. Just now there are several threads with people who comment showing clear signs that didn't even read or comprehend past the very first line. A thread about a gay man roleplaying his avatar, in the second sentence of the thread, and someone even responded assuming he was straight and the thread were about a straight man embarassed by a female avatar turning out to be male.
Any argument on the internet seems to have a large majority of people (typically lurkers commenting and then vanishing, not the actual debaters) who seem to be unable to read. I am not even talking about the people who argue back and forth failing to empathize with one another. No, I am talking of the numerous lurkers who post a single short paragraph revealing a complete failure to understand the simple concepts the topic provides to discuss.
It is actually the NORM in MMORPG's for people to skip all quest text, no matter how lengthy or in depth the text gets. In fact, they tend to skip it ESPECIALLY when it is too lengthy. Yet quest text is still written.
Why even have quest text if people can't read? Do they really require the illusion of roleplaying to help prevent themselves from coming to terms with the reality that their game is shallow and their progression meaningless? How many gamers would cheer to see a developer say, "We fired 5 of our story writers and hired 3 new PvP developers to give an additional Battleground every major update!" The crowds would cheer in glory.
That would be on you. And it would also be on the people that don't read quest text... In the grand scheme of things I don't think it matters too much. I personally could care less if Gamer X reads the quest text or not. It doesn't affect my playtime in anyway.
As far as letting developers go because they don't want quest text? I would prefer the text over another PvP map anyday.
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
How would a good text for a farmer to tell you to kill 10 rats look?
If it was well-written, it wouldn't be rats. Much like how I'm 99% sure that there's not a single "kill 10 rats" quest in WOW, however there are many better-written quests about killing various types of enemies for better-justified reasons.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
How would a good text for a farmer to tell you to kill 10 rats look?
If it was well-written, it wouldn't be rats. Much like how I'm 99% sure that there's not a single "kill 10 rats" quest in WOW, however there are many better-written quests about killing various types of enemies for better-justified reasons.
A rat by any other name ...
My problem with quest text is that most quest-based MMOs are written like a glorified comic book. You aren't actually a participant in the story, you are just a passive consumer of story - albiet with a little more effort required to turn the pages.
I read the quest text when it is relevent, when it actually influences whether or not I accept the quest, when I want to learn the consequences of succeeding or failing. If there are no consequences and no real choice since it's just the next stop of the ride, then the quest text is really no different than the texture map of the rat's fur - something I'd probably notice if it was really badly done, but otherwise not something I'm going to give much conscious attention.
Personally, I read stories to visit worlds, not visit worlds to read a story.
Wasn't there a time where there were no quests or very little? Where you had to grind for hours?
Yeah, those were so popular! /sarcasm
I can't for the life of me see why people do not like quests/stories.
I prefered the social group leveling aspect even if it took "hours". But it sure beats the rage enducing grind through this dungeon 50x so you can get a drop or enough tokens to move onto the next tier so you can grind through it 50x to get enough tokens for the next tier, every time the npc's cursing that you stopped them each and every time you grind through them (And they aren't even really dungeons, they are "gauntlets" as in linear hallways with a start and an end that have no exploration aspect to them and the enemies stand in static spots waiting for you)
I hope you weren't implying that the current method didn't have a massive grind aspect to it. at least with the social group aspect you talked to people who weren't in rush grind mode all the time like the current "dungeon run" aspect, and when interrupted or delayed begin to rage (which is often the only communication you get from them)
Wasn't there a time where there were no quests or very little? Where you had to grind for hours?
Yeah, those were so popular! /sarcasm
I can't for the life of me see why people do not like quests/stories.
The first few times it's fun. After the 953,392,186,009,931 time it gets a little boring and repetitive. It doesn't even seem like they're trying anymore.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Comments
What a fucking crock.
Dont shovel shit, and expect everyone to eat it pal. Proclaiming folks need VO cause they have ADD, or some other mental defecincy isnt planted in fact, it is simply stereotyping.
Like I said, the stereotypes could fall the other way as well, but I realize folks choose things on preference. Not some mystical IQ rating, or other apptitude in technical skills, which some of you would have us believe.
We know what you are about. Dont give us a thesis trying to dismiss it. The OP, plus your follow up posts were pretty evident. You want a sandbox, and without quests since no one can read anyways. Thus I think my reply was fair.
Quests are part of themepark gaming. It would be no different than me going on about sandboxes, and asking why they bother putting in Owen since that is one of the least utilized parts. Just because I dont enjoy it, doesnt mean that others wont.
Like I said, it is a preference thing, and since it appears enough people engage in quests, they will remain in gaming. Just the same as themeparks will keep having a much higher percentage of the total MMO playerbase. You are welcome to spin that one as well.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
I think people, like myself, tend to glaze over the text in MMOs because they are a different kind of game. Let me explain. Most single-player games focus on story and gameplay. MMORPGs are very mechanical. By that, I mean that numbers rule the day. The reason why we go out and kill ten boars isn't for the story, it's to get exp and money for better gear... i.e. rewards. Whereas a single-player RPG, you're killing the ten boars to progress the story. Keep in mind that I'm speaking generally here, and by ten boars, I'm referring to any random quest. Many games try to make an MMO based around a story, but it rubs many the wrong way. Like many, I think that lore is great in an MMO. It establishes atmosphere, and gives depth and purpose to the world. However, making it too much all about your character causes a disconnect, because you know that it's not... it's a massively multilpayer game in a wolrd that doesn't change based on your actions. There's no real end; the "end" in MMOs is guaged on how big your epeen is. It's a victory for mechanics, not plot, or characters, or anything else. That's why I think stories in MMOs never quite set right.
I want text.I often don't hear what the voice actors say properly.There is nothing wrong with my hearing either... lol.
They just speak wierdly or with an american accent I sometimes fail to hear a word so if I can read it all the better.In mmo's I always without fail read the text of every quest I do the first time I do a quest.
How many times do you get people not reading what the NPC says then has to ask in chat 'uhhh what do I do now?'so annoying.
Agreed. I don't remember the last time I read quest text. Why do I need to read five paragraphs of text to explain why I should kill 5 boars that are standing ten feet away?
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
I dont mind text, aslong as it provides a halfway believeable and meaningful reason for why i am supposed to kill that boars, bears or whatever.
Plus, the world around me has to at least try to represent what is being told via the quest text.
For example, WoW, Human starter zone. You are supposed to kill some boars, which are standing around, posing no obvious threat, like attacking the people there. There are Stormwind guards in full armor and weapons nearby, also just standing around, obviously not occupied with another task, like fighting. Why the heck should i do this?
I think SWTOR does both these things rather well.
I read the text for alittle in WoW... levelling a BE the first time through ghostlands was epic with the quest arc there! And then bringing the necklace to Sylvanas and her singing was badass.
But by the 8 or 9th character... I was skimming through everything, and then they added the ingame quest helper... I might as well have been illiturate.
Taru-Gallante-Blood elf-Elysean-Kelari-Crime Fighting-Imperial Agent
illiterate?
thats why I like swtor
How would a good text for a farmer to tell you to kill 10 rats look?
Even if you took the 10 best authors in the world they could not write a good flavortext for 90% of the MMO texts. And voice acting it wont help either.
What does help somewhat is if you at least see something happen and have to figure out how to deal with it. But those dang rats need to stop spawning after you killed them, at least for 5 minutes or so.
What we really need to get rid off is that idiotic quest window that tells you just what to do, just deal with the situation and get the flavor text after you actually help the farmer if you must have it.
In a none instanced MMO that usually just would be you killing some of the bandits and leaving the rest.
It is a lot harder to write things for a MMO than a singleplayer game unless you instance up the entire game and frankly do that take away the massive part leaving a single player game for you.
Do a multi-player version of that (instanced group quests), or use phasing. The massive part is not conducive to adventure anyway. Small group content is the best.
Agreed.
Players who build a virtual world that evolves don't need a story. The world IS the story. Wher the players have written their own lore by the way they have played their game over time. This is very difficult to achieve in a Theme Park since the whole premise of a TP is "Hey! come play in our world"
The whole concept of "Quest" has been diminished to the point where current games are simply removing the entire concept and embedding them into the game invisible to the user.
But that's what you get when you take what amounts to an errand and label it as a "quest"
Anarchy Online had some of the best quest chains. They were long and difficult and actually done well. And when you were finsihed, it had some real meaning to your game.
Not all MMOs are virtual worlds. In fact, there is an increasing trend to go the other way ,... small group content with a lobby .. like in Diablo 3 (which is a ARPG with some MMO elements).
Admittedly, I've been an advocate against SW:TOR, but I'm not going to go into all of my reasoning now. However, I have no porblem with the people whom enjoy it. I'm glad that there is a variety of games to choose from... more or less. Hopefully, the trend to follow the WoW/EQ formula will die out soon. Personally, I've never really been able to get into most MMO chracter stories, though I haven't really enjoyed a single-player game's story recently, either. I would choose a good linear story over a myrid of shallow "choices" in a game any day. That's just me, though.
That would be on you. And it would also be on the people that don't read quest text... In the grand scheme of things I don't think it matters too much. I personally could care less if Gamer X reads the quest text or not. It doesn't affect my playtime in anyway.
As far as letting developers go because they don't want quest text? I would prefer the text over another PvP map anyday.
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
If it was well-written, it wouldn't be rats. Much like how I'm 99% sure that there's not a single "kill 10 rats" quest in WOW, however there are many better-written quests about killing various types of enemies for better-justified reasons.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
A rat by any other name ...
My problem with quest text is that most quest-based MMOs are written like a glorified comic book. You aren't actually a participant in the story, you are just a passive consumer of story - albiet with a little more effort required to turn the pages.
I read the quest text when it is relevent, when it actually influences whether or not I accept the quest, when I want to learn the consequences of succeeding or failing. If there are no consequences and no real choice since it's just the next stop of the ride, then the quest text is really no different than the texture map of the rat's fur - something I'd probably notice if it was really badly done, but otherwise not something I'm going to give much conscious attention.
Personally, I read stories to visit worlds, not visit worlds to read a story.
Wasn't there a time where there were no quests or very little? Where you had to grind for hours?
Yeah, those were so popular! /sarcasm
I can't for the life of me see why people do not like quests/stories.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I prefered the social group leveling aspect even if it took "hours". But it sure beats the rage enducing grind through this dungeon 50x so you can get a drop or enough tokens to move onto the next tier so you can grind through it 50x to get enough tokens for the next tier, every time the npc's cursing that you stopped them each and every time you grind through them (And they aren't even really dungeons, they are "gauntlets" as in linear hallways with a start and an end that have no exploration aspect to them and the enemies stand in static spots waiting for you)
I hope you weren't implying that the current method didn't have a massive grind aspect to it. at least with the social group aspect you talked to people who weren't in rush grind mode all the time like the current "dungeon run" aspect, and when interrupted or delayed begin to rage (which is often the only communication you get from them)
ROFLMAO. Oh so true.
The first few times it's fun. After the 953,392,186,009,931 time it gets a little boring and repetitive. It doesn't even seem like they're trying anymore.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
I totally agree with that to. When I start playing, I want to create my story. And curently I can only do that in "dungeons" and "raiding"
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I prefer voice acting. If I see a lot of text, I just skip it. A book is far better medium for that.
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