I agree that FPS games take more skill than any MMO battleground out there, although that isn't my biggest issue with MMO battlegrounds. My biggest issue is that, other than the fantasy type skills you can choose, MMO battlegrounds are inferior in almost every objectively viewed feature. For starters:
1) FPS battlegrounds support more players than most MMO battlegrounds. Very ironic, but FPS battlegrounds are more "massive"
Really? Last I looksed, with few exceptions, most fps limit to 24x24 or smaller. There are a number of MMOs where battle sizes are similar. And Guild wars 2 is promising MUCH larger fights.
Please list those MMO BATTLEGROUNDS that are greater than 24x24. There are very very few. We are talking about esport battlegrounds now, not open world PVP (which MMOs are far superior at open world over FPS) or the RvRvR non-esport. Remember, this was an esport discussion.
2) FPS battlegrounds have many different range tactics: melee, short, medium, and long (even across the map). MMO battlegrounds it is only melee or short range.
I've seen MMOs with multiple ranges. Cross-battlefield attacks being the only exception, probably because they tend to be overpowered. Let's not forget Call of Duty, where I can throw an axe 100m, bounce it off three walls, hit you in the shin, and you die.
Please list these MMO battlegrounds with multiple ranges. Every fantasy MMO battleground I've played have had a rather limited range, under 30-40 meters or so, which I'm lumping into short-range. If you want to call that medium range fine. But the fact is, there are no long range tactics which are very important to team play. And NO, long range tactics are not overpowered, they are situational. That axe which ricochet off the walls 100 meters away you've probably only seen on youtube because that is extraordinarily rare. That is why people post it to youtube.
3) FPS battlegrounds are 3 dimensional in tactics. There are buildins with multiple levels where you could have snipers on the roof, on the floor, etc. There are stairway battles, hallway battles, open field battles, etc. In an MMO battlefield, it is basically a 2D battlefield (with illusion of 3D) with most tactics being open field tactics
You've been playing too much WoW. There are many MMOs where pvp combat is multi-level. And we've already seen it in GW2's videos.
I have not seen true 3D tactics in any fantasy battelground nor GW2 videos. It is the illusion of 3D not truly 3D. There is a huge difference. This type of illusion the orginal Doom had in 1991.
4) FPS battlegrounds have diverse materials. There are glass surfaces which can break and are transparent. You have translucent surfaces, you have opaque surfaces. Some surfaces stop damage altogother, some mitigate it, others are basically like paper and only hide you not protect you. They also have different sound patterns. Different footsteps based on surface. Stealth is actually obtained via careful play not a "Invisible button" like in an MMO battlefield. MMO battlefields have none of the tactics of using the environment
I will agree that destructible terrain, glass, materials you can shoot through, etc would ne an improvement many MMOs need to make. I'd also point out I've seen destructible windows in teh clock tower in GW2. Hopefully it's something we can see more of.
I sure hope MMO battlegrounds start taking some baby steps in some of these features. I've seen one tower destroy in GW2 video but didn't see how it affected gameplay. The fact is though MMO battlegrounds are years behind the modern FPS.
5) FPS battlegrounds are much more dynamic. There are small intervals where a helicopter might be patrolling, either for you or against you. Your enemy might have radar out or maybe you do or maybe both do. In all the previous scenarios, your tactics must dynamically change to fit the scenario. And this just scratches the surface. There are many other dynamic scenarios that pop up making tactics very emergent. MMO battlegrounds on the other hand, purely static
First off, the examples you list tend to be part of only a few FPS. Second, there are a few MMOs that make use of things like this in pvp too. Though I'll agree SOMETIMES we could use more of it. Many times it's just a crappy gimmick.
Again what MMOs are you talking about? I haven't seen dynamic gameply like that in any MMO battleground. And if you think having radar, or a helicopter, or dogs, etc is a crappy gimmick you are probably the type of noob who ignores it and gets slaughtered. Tactics that need to change dynamically is something MMO battlegrounds haven't even attempted yet.
6) FPS battlegrounds are much more diverse. Usually at least 15 maps and at least 15 or so gametypes. And each and every map can support each and every gametype. In an MMO battelground, you are LUCKY if there are 7 maps and usually each map supports ONE gametype
With respect, I wonder how many FPS you've played. Map numbers notwithstanding (and I might point out, many games with that many maps only have them as payable DLC or player-made content), I can't think of many with 15 "unique" games modes. Typically it's Deathmatch, Team Deathmatch, CTF, King of the Hill, Horde, and Capture the resource points. Most every other "mode" out there is one of the above with a tiny twist.
In fact there are often well over 15 unique gamemodes. And you act like a "tiny twist" is meaningless. You mean a "tiny twist" like friend fire, or no radar, or bullets do more damage, etc? Those "Minor twists" that completely change how you need to play. In fact, many FPS games have oer 30 game types if you add up all the twists. MMO battleground variety is absolutly pathetic.
7) Graphics and sound are far superior and more important in a FPS battleground over an MMO battleground. In an FPS you actually need to listen to know where your enemies are.
Directional sound, I'll agree, is something MMOs need to use more. I would disagree that graphics and sound are always superior though. That varies WILDLY from game to game.
We are taliking the modern FPS versus the modern MMO. Sound and graphics are superior in the modern FPS in my opinion. Much more smoke/fog effects and dynamic debris blowing in the wind for instance that are actually meaninhful to gameplay. We could dive deeper on this but I actually don't care that much about the graphics aspect I figured I'd lump it in with sound, which I think is uber-important.
8) In addition to all the more advanced tactics in an FPS the above 7 points illustrate, FPS games also require skill in aiming. MMO battlegrounds are tab-target where twitch skill is meaningless.
Something that is becoming rapidly irrelevant. Many of the "new" generation of MMOs (GW2, Tera, TSW, Archeage) are starting to stray from that model. Thankfully.
GW2 is tab target.
I could really go on and on and on, but the fact is anybody that plays MMOs for the battelgrounds and esport are just wasting their time. FPS is far superior in every single way other than if you want to choose "fantasy" type skills. But you are giving up a lot for that. In fact, you are giving up in every possible way just to get the fantasy skills. Unless you just like the uber-simplified environments, uber simplified tactics, and uber simplified everything else.
MMO battlegrounds are basically where FPS battlegrounds were around 10 years ago. It is pathetic.
MMO battlegrounds have also been around a lot less time. I don't believe they are as far behind as you claim, though I'll admit MMOs focus less on the development and polish of their BGs. Probably because they aren't the one-trick pony FPS games are. I'm sure you've noticed many FPS games cutting back on or eliminating their single-player function altogether, to become nothing but a series of repetitive battlegrounds. MMOs spread development usually on multiple fields: Single player PVE, small group PVE, raid/large group PVE, small group PVP, and raid/large group PVP. Plus secondaries like exploring, crafting, and socializing. You can't fault a swiss army knife for not having as much damage potential as a broadsword, when it's designed to do about 80 things a broadsword can't.
First of all MMO battlegrounds have been around long enough now that I won't let that be an excuse. And FPS battlegrounds have gotten away somewhat from single-player campaigns but not single player modes. Survival modes, COOP missions, etc are very strong in some games. But you also neglect to mention that FPS games have actually caught up in many of the leveling and skill-based tailoring that used to be only the domain of RPG games. I can craft my FPS avatar with as much finesse and variety as in many MMORPG games.
Lotta broad generalization there. Comments in cyan.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
I thought mmorpgs were about progression, if I automatically wanted to get into the fray of things and have a game about 100% skill, wouldnt I play a twitched based FPS, mmorpgs should be 50% skill, 50% progression
I thought mmorpgs were about being big games with lots to do in them with a lot of people. There's no notes in my memo about neccessary char progression. Also, there is char progression, just not in the instanced PvP, it could be a good thing considering players who just want to PvP in "arenas" and dont give a crap about the big world. /shrug
I thought mmorpgs were about progression, if I automatically wanted to get into the fray of things and have a game about 100% skill, wouldnt I play a twitched based FPS, mmorpgs should be 50% skill, 50% progression
that is called sidekicking system. If you are level 1 and your friend is lvl 80 and he is bored playing alone you group up with your friend and you sidekick to lvl 80 to play with your friend. Upon leaving the group you level goes back to one and you get your lowbie crappy gear back. He can also sidekick to level 1 and progress with you on lowbie areas. Several mmos have that feature. I think the best reason to use sidekicking is the example i gave you about friends.
I am a PVE'r at heart...and like to role-play (light). I've never liked the pvp in games like WOW very much although I would attempt to pvp (even as low level player) if we were being invaded. Guess what happened. I couldn't even touch a level 80 char.
They could kill me with one swipe and there I'd be dead and watching them storm into my home city. Even if 10 of us lowbies were fighting a level 80 it made no difference...unless you were 80 you couldn't touch them. I hated having to stand and watch a bunch of level 80's storm into my home city and I felt helpless....they was NOTHING I could do to prevent the attack.
That was no real contest...the lvl 80 was getting kills but no challenge ... we were getting killed but no challenge...can't kill something you can't hit.
NOW, we will have challenge. Everytime you go into pvp, you will be facing folks that can fight back, that can kill and be killed.
For the FIRST time, I am excited about PVP.
Took the words out of my... ummm... fingers.
If there's anything more annoying than losing in PvP because you're lower level, it's winning because you're higher level.
Progression in PvP just doesn't work. Or I should say, it doesn't work for people that want an honest to goodness challenge. I think GW2 just might create a massive "Well, duh!!! Why didn't we think of that?" moment in development history with this.
Can't help but wonder if it may even have a Trammel effect on other MMOPvP games...
We shall see.
In GW 1 it wat treated the same way. Noone had adventage. You could create level 20 pvp character and compete with others. Only your skills mattered, no level or pro-uber gear. That's why I loved pvp in GW and I'm sure I'll like it in GW2.
I thought mmorpgs were about progression, if I automatically wanted to get into the fray of things and have a game about 100% skill, wouldnt I play a twitched based FPS, mmorpgs should be 50% skill, 50% progression
that is called sidekicking system. If you are level 1 and your friend is lvl 80 and he is bored playing alone you group up with your friend and you sidekick to lvl 80 to play with your friend. Upon leaving the group you level goes back to one and you get your lowbie crappy gear back. He can also sidekick to level 1 and progress with you on lowbie areas. Several mmos have that feature. I think the best reason to use sidekicking is the example i gave you about friends.
I'm pretty sure that levelling up only applies to PvP and WvW however... not PvE. In PvE, you'll be levelled down, but not up.
Originally posted by Volkon Originally posted by rojo6934
Originally posted by nomatics856
I thought mmorpgs were about progression, if I automatically wanted to get into the fray of things and have a game about 100% skill, wouldnt I play a twitched based FPS, mmorpgs should be 50% skill, 50% progression
that is called sidekicking system. If you are level 1 and your friend is lvl 80 and he is bored playing alone you group up with your friend and you sidekick to lvl 80 to play with your friend. Upon leaving the group you level goes back to one and you get your lowbie crappy gear back. He can also sidekick to level 1 and progress with you on lowbie areas. Several mmos have that feature. I think the best reason to use sidekicking is the example i gave you about friends. I'm pretty sure that levelling up only applies to PvP and WvW however... not PvE. In PvE, you'll be levelled down, but not up.
It used to be thought that sidekicking in GW2 was both ways but as yet we haven't seen any video or heard any reports of that being the case, I haven't seen anything where a player is sidekicking another player up to their level. We know there's an auto down kick for lower levels with no auto up kick for higher levels.
I thought mmorpgs were about progression, if I automatically wanted to get into the fray of things and have a game about 100% skill, wouldnt I play a twitched based FPS, mmorpgs should be 50% skill, 50% progression
that is called sidekicking system. If you are level 1 and your friend is lvl 80 and he is bored playing alone you group up with your friend and you sidekick to lvl 80 to play with your friend. Upon leaving the group you level goes back to one and you get your lowbie crappy gear back. He can also sidekick to level 1 and progress with you on lowbie areas. Several mmos have that feature. I think the best reason to use sidekicking is the example i gave you about friends.
I'm pretty sure that levelling up only applies to PvP and WvW however... not PvE. In PvE, you'll be levelled down, but not up.
It used to be thought that sidekicking in GW2 was both ways but as yet we haven't seen any video or heard any reports of that being the case, I haven't seen anything where a player is sidekicking another player up to their level. We know there's an auto down kick for lower levels with no auto up kick for higher levels.
Only because there was no need in the beta, the npc would level you up. you can sidekick up or down,
1. you auto level down to the content of the area you are in.
2. someone in your group can sidekick you to there level if they are higher then you.
edit* a quote from the gw2 wiki. i dont feel like looking up the anet blog about it
In PvE, a character wanting to play higher level content can be sidekicked by a higher-level character to increase their level. While in World PvP, any character will be sidekicked automatically to level 80 to fight against other worlds.[3]
I'm pretty sure that levelling up only applies to PvP and WvW however... not PvE. In PvE, you'll be levelled down, but not up.
It used to be thought that sidekicking in GW2 was both ways but as yet we haven't seen any video or heard any reports of that being the case, I haven't seen anything where a player is sidekicking another player up to their level. We know there's an auto down kick for lower levels with no auto up kick for higher levels.
It's still part of the game for sure.
In beta, a npc instantly makes you lvl 30 if you want to, but there was no high level players running around to buff people up.
The way it works, is that you have to be grouped with a higher level player. And you don't get new skills or anything. You just get enough hp to survive and be able to help out. and you need to be close to your "grouped mentor" or you will lose the effect and die horrible deaths with item decay of a thousand burning suns.
I thought mmorpgs were about progression, if I automatically wanted to get into the fray of things and have a game about 100% skill, wouldnt I play a twitched based FPS, mmorpgs should be 50% skill, 50% progression
that is called sidekicking system. If you are level 1 and your friend is lvl 80 and he is bored playing alone you group up with your friend and you sidekick to lvl 80 to play with your friend. Upon leaving the group you level goes back to one and you get your lowbie crappy gear back. He can also sidekick to level 1 and progress with you on lowbie areas. Several mmos have that feature. I think the best reason to use sidekicking is the example i gave you about friends.
I'm pretty sure that levelling up only applies to PvP and WvW however... not PvE. In PvE, you'll be levelled down, but not up.
I'm way late to this, but in case anyone hasn't said it:
When in WvW, whatever level you are "really" in the world, you'll collect gear and XP for that level. So while you'll be a "fake 80" in the mists, you'll still be REALLY leveling your character, finding loot for your character, and getting XP that's appropriate for your level. You can effectively play level 1-80 in the Mists and never touch the outside world, but you'd be missing a lot.
and even cooler still is that if you did level to 80 in WvW you don't really "miss" anything cause you can always go back there get scaled down and it will be just as challenging as it would have been.
you'd think these sorts of innovations would become industry standard, but fact is they will not. I mean alot of this stuff was already introduced yonks ago in gw1 and no one else seems to have picked it up. I guess because subscription games need to make you run on the hamster wheel in order to make revenue.
I thought mmorpgs were about progression, if I automatically wanted to get into the fray of things and have a game about 100% skill, wouldnt I play a twitched based FPS, mmorpgs should be 50% skill, 50% progression
that is called sidekicking system. If you are level 1 and your friend is lvl 80 and he is bored playing alone you group up with your friend and you sidekick to lvl 80 to play with your friend. Upon leaving the group you level goes back to one and you get your lowbie crappy gear back. He can also sidekick to level 1 and progress with you on lowbie areas. Several mmos have that feature. I think the best reason to use sidekicking is the example i gave you about friends.
I'm pretty sure that levelling up only applies to PvP and WvW however... not PvE. In PvE, you'll be levelled down, but not up.
It used to be thought that sidekicking in GW2 was both ways but as yet we haven't seen any video or heard any reports of that being the case, I haven't seen anything where a player is sidekicking another player up to their level. We know there's an auto down kick for lower levels with no auto up kick for higher levels.
Only because there was no need in the beta, the npc would level you up. you can sidekick up or down,
1. you auto level down to the content of the area you are in.
2. someone in your group can sidekick you to there level if they are higher then you.
edit* a quote from the gw2 wiki. i dont feel like looking up the anet blog about it
In PvE, a character wanting to play higher level content can be sidekicked by a higher-level character to increase their level. While in World PvP, any character will be sidekicked automatically to level 80 to fight against other worlds.[3]
This is correct.
CPVP: Everyone becomes a true level 80 with full skill unlocks, trait points and max stat gear. This isn't side-kicking, your CPVP character is more a maxed out clone/doppleganger of your PvE character.
WvW: Everyone is auto side-kicked up to an effective level of 80, but skills and trait points are basd on your true level and you bring your own gear.
PvE: Normal character progression. You are auto-side-kicked down for lower level content and can be actively side-kicked up by another player in your group.
Loot and Side-kicking: In WvW and PvE, loot you earn is based on your true level, not your side-kicked level. So, you @ level 30 you can do level 10 content, be scaled down to level 10, but get loot and XP appropriate for a level 30. Also, if you are sidekicked up to level 60 content by a friend, you don't get level 60 loot/XP, you get level 30 rewards.
When you are sidekicked down in level, you may not be able to obtain the rarest loot table items for your level. So, your level 30 character doing level 10 content would indeed get rolls on the level 30 loot table, but you may not have a chance at random epic gear from that table.
No idea if sidekicking up in level has any effect on your loot table rolls.
You can earn XP and loot in WvW. The goal is for leveling rate and loot accumulation in WvW to be on par with adventuring in the PvE world.
Right, and that's the problem. In a properly structured RPG world, those things wouldn't be separated from the virtual world, they would be a part of it, organic to it.
The type of gameplay you describes fits with an e-sport lobby game, and in fact, there are several out there that fill that need. Again, that has been one of the main problems with MMORPGs over the last ten years - they continue to relegate the persistent world to the status of a huge lobby.
GW2 is going down that same road.
Is it so difficult to accept that GW2 offers a variety of things for people?
1. MMORPG PvE in a persistent, dynamic world. Includes highly challenging dungeon content.
2. Large scale, persistent PvP (WvW) with character progression, drops, etc. in an MMORPG world separated from the PvE world. Also has dynamic events, local mobs, etc.
3. Lobby style competitive PvP where everyone is on an equal footing and personal skills make the difference.
One character, you have all of these available to you. Where's the problem?
Everyone has different preferences. I prefer that an MMORPG not divide all those aspects into several seperate "games within a game." I like a game in which everything you've listed, along with crafting, the economy, politics, and social activities are all interwoven into one deep, rich, meaningful game world, where the persistent world and virtual society actually have a meaning beyond serving as a hub from which people queue for instances or otherwise divide themselves from the game world.
GW2 appears to be continuing the trend of creating mostly useless gameworlds, and an over-emphasis on instances that provide simplistic themepark "rides" contributing to the uselessness of the virtual world.
Man we're not even in the game yet and people are finding faults... I would think discussions like this would come AFTER you've actually experienced the game, no?
I find it silly aswell that a MMORPG has the feature to skip all the levelling and unlock everything to play structured PvP right off the bat. Personally I would've liked to see a requirement (level a class to 80) before you could hop on to structured. It kinda spoils the fun of opening weapons skill and exploring for for healing/utility/elite skill when you can simply click a button to acquire them all even if it's only for structured PvP.
If I'm going to play GW2 I won't be touching the structured before I'm done with the PvE/WvWvW part of the game since for me it's a major spoiler to start playing around with a maxed toon
if it is anything like GW1 you dont get everything stright away. you still need to work for them.
and if pve is anything like GW1 its easier to buy the skills in pve than unlocking them in pvp (except for elite skills then of course)
so if your creating a pvp warrior straight away your skills will suck big time since you havent unlocked anything in either pvp or pve. same goes for weapons and all the other stuff...
Comments
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
I thought mmorpgs were about being big games with lots to do in them with a lot of people. There's no notes in my memo about neccessary char progression. Also, there is char progression, just not in the instanced PvP, it could be a good thing considering players who just want to PvP in "arenas" and dont give a crap about the big world. /shrug
that is called sidekicking system. If you are level 1 and your friend is lvl 80 and he is bored playing alone you group up with your friend and you sidekick to lvl 80 to play with your friend. Upon leaving the group you level goes back to one and you get your lowbie crappy gear back. He can also sidekick to level 1 and progress with you on lowbie areas. Several mmos have that feature. I think the best reason to use sidekicking is the example i gave you about friends.
In GW 1 it wat treated the same way. Noone had adventage. You could create level 20 pvp character and compete with others. Only your skills mattered, no level or pro-uber gear. That's why I loved pvp in GW and I'm sure I'll like it in GW2.
I'm pretty sure that levelling up only applies to PvP and WvW however... not PvE. In PvE, you'll be levelled down, but not up.
Oderint, dum metuant.
I'm pretty sure that levelling up only applies to PvP and WvW however... not PvE. In PvE, you'll be levelled down, but not up.
It used to be thought that sidekicking in GW2 was both ways but as yet we haven't seen any video or heard any reports of that being the case, I haven't seen anything where a player is sidekicking another player up to their level. We know there's an auto down kick for lower levels with no auto up kick for higher levels.
Only because there was no need in the beta, the npc would level you up. you can sidekick up or down,
1. you auto level down to the content of the area you are in.
2. someone in your group can sidekick you to there level if they are higher then you.
edit* a quote from the gw2 wiki. i dont feel like looking up the anet blog about it
In PvE, a character wanting to play higher level content can be sidekicked by a higher-level character to increase their level. While in World PvP, any character will be sidekicked automatically to level 80 to fight against other worlds.[3]
It's still part of the game for sure.
In beta, a npc instantly makes you lvl 30 if you want to, but there was no high level players running around to buff people up.
The way it works, is that you have to be grouped with a higher level player. And you don't get new skills or anything. You just get enough hp to survive and be able to help out. and you need to be close to your "grouped mentor" or you will lose the effect and die horrible deaths with item decay of a thousand burning suns.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uP3yDL-b2fY
and even cooler still is that if you did level to 80 in WvW you don't really "miss" anything cause you can always go back there get scaled down and it will be just as challenging as it would have been.
you'd think these sorts of innovations would become industry standard, but fact is they will not. I mean alot of this stuff was already introduced yonks ago in gw1 and no one else seems to have picked it up. I guess because subscription games need to make you run on the hamster wheel in order to make revenue.
My blog:
This is correct.
CPVP: Everyone becomes a true level 80 with full skill unlocks, trait points and max stat gear. This isn't side-kicking, your CPVP character is more a maxed out clone/doppleganger of your PvE character.
WvW: Everyone is auto side-kicked up to an effective level of 80, but skills and trait points are basd on your true level and you bring your own gear.
PvE: Normal character progression. You are auto-side-kicked down for lower level content and can be actively side-kicked up by another player in your group.
Loot and Side-kicking: In WvW and PvE, loot you earn is based on your true level, not your side-kicked level. So, you @ level 30 you can do level 10 content, be scaled down to level 10, but get loot and XP appropriate for a level 30. Also, if you are sidekicked up to level 60 content by a friend, you don't get level 60 loot/XP, you get level 30 rewards.
When you are sidekicked down in level, you may not be able to obtain the rarest loot table items for your level. So, your level 30 character doing level 10 content would indeed get rolls on the level 30 loot table, but you may not have a chance at random epic gear from that table.
No idea if sidekicking up in level has any effect on your loot table rolls.
You can earn XP and loot in WvW. The goal is for leveling rate and loot accumulation in WvW to be on par with adventuring in the PvE world.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
Everyone has different preferences. I prefer that an MMORPG not divide all those aspects into several seperate "games within a game." I like a game in which everything you've listed, along with crafting, the economy, politics, and social activities are all interwoven into one deep, rich, meaningful game world, where the persistent world and virtual society actually have a meaning beyond serving as a hub from which people queue for instances or otherwise divide themselves from the game world.
GW2 appears to be continuing the trend of creating mostly useless gameworlds, and an over-emphasis on instances that provide simplistic themepark "rides" contributing to the uselessness of the virtual world.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
Man we're not even in the game yet and people are finding faults... I would think discussions like this would come AFTER you've actually experienced the game, no?
if it is anything like GW1 you dont get everything stright away. you still need to work for them.
and if pve is anything like GW1 its easier to buy the skills in pve than unlocking them in pvp (except for elite skills then of course)
so if your creating a pvp warrior straight away your skills will suck big time since you havent unlocked anything in either pvp or pve. same goes for weapons and all the other stuff...