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So now level 1s will be allowed to hit 80 automatically, given PVP gear, skills and traits... really

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  • MavacarMavacar GothenburgPosts: 328Member
    Originally posted by Siveria

    Meh they need to remove pvp gear or I won't bother with this game, I am so sick of games having 2 diff gear sets one for pve 1 for pvp, its stupid, everyone should have to raid for their gear, this ruins pvp in so many mmo's its not funny. Guess thats strike 2 in GW2's coffin, one more and I won't bother with it myself. They need to keep all gear to be pve raids so it preserves some sense of balance, otherwise it alieantes pve players from trying pvp, look at dark age fo camelot, it worked perfectly in that game, why do all these newer mmo's insist on having special pvp earnable gear and and such? Then again, not that I expect a decent mmo to come out ever again personally till wow dies. Tired of these casual mmo's where you can hit cap without any player interaction its kinda stupid, its supposed to be a mmorpg, its supposed to be social and have grouping, it is not supposed to bascally be a glorified single player game till cap.

     

    Then you're in luck there isn't any pvp gear
  • ConnmacartConnmacart OsloPosts: 681Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Mavacar

    Originally posted by Siveria

    Meh they need to remove pvp gear or I won't bother with this game, I am so sick of games having 2 diff gear sets one for pve 1 for pvp, its stupid, everyone should have to raid for their gear, this ruins pvp in so many mmo's its not funny. Guess thats strike 2 in GW2's coffin, one more and I won't bother with it myself. They need to keep all gear to be pve raids so it preserves some sense of balance, otherwise it alieantes pve players from trying pvp, look at dark age fo camelot, it worked perfectly in that game, why do all these newer mmo's insist on having special pvp earnable gear and and such? Then again, not that I expect a decent mmo to come out ever again personally till wow dies. Tired of these casual mmo's where you can hit cap without any player interaction its kinda stupid, its supposed to be a mmorpg, its supposed to be social and have grouping, it is not supposed to bascally be a glorified single player game till cap.

     

    Then you're in luck there isn't any pvp gear

    Technically there is actually. PvPers can buy gear with glory. It's just that it has the same stats as PvE end gear.

     

  • JupstoJupsto englandPosts: 2,087Member

    Originally posted by Mavacar

    Originally posted by Siveria

    Meh they need to remove pvp gear or I won't bother with this game, I am so sick of games having 2 diff gear sets one for pve 1 for pvp, its stupid, everyone should have to raid for their gear, this ruins pvp in so many mmo's its not funny. Guess thats strike 2 in GW2's coffin, one more and I won't bother with it myself. They need to keep all gear to be pve raids so it preserves some sense of balance, otherwise it alieantes pve players from trying pvp, look at dark age fo camelot, it worked perfectly in that game, why do all these newer mmo's insist on having special pvp earnable gear and and such? Then again, not that I expect a decent mmo to come out ever again personally till wow dies. Tired of these casual mmo's where you can hit cap without any player interaction its kinda stupid, its supposed to be a mmorpg, its supposed to be social and have grouping, it is not supposed to bascally be a glorified single player game till cap.

     

    Then you're in luck there isn't any pvp gear

    I don't think you have to "raid" for your gear either tho. infact I don't think there are technically raids like in other mmos, nor is pvp gear based anyway.

    if its like gw1 and I suspect it is all classes will have the same level on gear in pvp. of course you can customise it, maybe you have to pve to get some of the customisations but they are not nessarily more powerful, thats something I heard in a video anyway.

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  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member

    Originally posted by Consensus

    Originally posted by Mavacar


    Originally posted by Siveria

    Meh they need to remove pvp gear or I won't bother with this game, I am so sick of games having 2 diff gear sets one for pve 1 for pvp, its stupid, everyone should have to raid for their gear, this ruins pvp in so many mmo's its not funny. Guess thats strike 2 in GW2's coffin, one more and I won't bother with it myself. They need to keep all gear to be pve raids so it preserves some sense of balance, otherwise it alieantes pve players from trying pvp, look at dark age fo camelot, it worked perfectly in that game, why do all these newer mmo's insist on having special pvp earnable gear and and such? Then again, not that I expect a decent mmo to come out ever again personally till wow dies. Tired of these casual mmo's where you can hit cap without any player interaction its kinda stupid, its supposed to be a mmorpg, its supposed to be social and have grouping, it is not supposed to bascally be a glorified single player game till cap.

     

    Then you're in luck there isn't any pvp gear

    I don't think you have to "raid" for your gear either tho. infact I don't think there are technically raids like in other mmos, nor is pvp gear based anyway.

    if its like gw1 and I suspect it is all classes will have the same level on gear in pvp. of course you can customise it, maybe you have to pve to get some of the customisations but they are not nessarily more powerful, thats something I heard in a video anyway.

    That's accurate. PvP gear has it's own look, each dungeon has it's own look, etc. Level 80 gear is all comparable in stats. You can even transfer those level 80 stats onto level 20 gear if you like how that looks better.

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  • KalferKalfer HappylandPosts: 779Member

    It's really an amazing system.

     

    Competitive PvP - From level 1, everyone can have fun and be equal. It's about skill, being balanced and as fun and fast and frantic complementing classic GW, first person action games and fun fast gameplay sessions.

    People can unlock more cool looking gear but it won't make a impact, because it's already max. 

     

     

    WvWvW - This is made to be unbalanced, and unfair. Thats the tag line. And Balthazar said; "let there be zerg" and thus red team was swarmped. 

    In WvW everything from PvE carries over. your gear, skills, level, everything. And you can lvl to 80 if you so desire. 

     

     

    So you get best of both worlds. In fact it's better than both worlds, because one of them contains 3 worlds, so hah!

     

     

     

    Thirdly, you in competitive PvP you make the e-sport games - you can set is up as 1 vs 1. or all the way up to 10 vs 10. Having a 10 vs 10 is a pretty big battle to set up. you can make that into a G v G. You can make that your tournament format. you can set a password, and invite friends(or enemies). 

  • KalferKalfer HappylandPosts: 779Member

    Originally posted by Volkon

    That's accurate. PvP gear has it's own look, each dungeon has it's own look, etc. Level 80 gear is all comparable in stats. You can even transfer those level 80 stats onto level 20 gear if you like how that looks better.

     

    With everything being able to use transmutation stones COMBINED with the OUTRAGOUS Dye system, it further diminishes the cash shop. people can make all the gear from lvl 1 all the way up to lvl 80 their preferenced gear.

     

    Results:

     

    1) no more clones.

    2) everyone can look super unique

    3) an entire games worth of equipment is suddenly possibily end game. Great for one like me who does not want to look like a glowing power ranger rainbow balloon at lvl 80.

  • KakkzookaKakkzooka Waterbury, CTPosts: 591Member

    Originally posted by Kalfer

    Originally posted by Volkon

    That's accurate. PvP gear has it's own look, each dungeon has it's own look, etc. Level 80 gear is all comparable in stats. You can even transfer those level 80 stats onto level 20 gear if you like how that looks better.

     

    With everything being able to use transmutation stones COMBINED with the OUTRAGOUS Dye system, it further diminishes the cash shop. people can make all the gear from lvl 1 all the way up to lvl 80 their preferenced gear.

     

    Results:

     

    1) no more clones.

    2) everyone can look super unique

    3) an entire games worth of equipment is suddenly possibily end game. Great for one like me who does not want to look like a glowing power ranger rainbow balloon at lvl 80.



    I want my character to look like Nyan Cat after a platefull of special brownies.

    Re: SWTOR

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  • ConnmacartConnmacart OsloPosts: 681Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Kalfer

    Originally posted by Volkon

    That's accurate. PvP gear has it's own look, each dungeon has it's own look, etc. Level 80 gear is all comparable in stats. You can even transfer those level 80 stats onto level 20 gear if you like how that looks better.

     

    With everything being able to use transmutation stones COMBINED with the OUTRAGOUS Dye system, it further diminishes the cash shop. people can make all the gear from lvl 1 all the way up to lvl 80 their preferenced gear.

     

    Results:

     

    1) no more clones.

    2) everyone can look super unique

    3) an entire games worth of equipment is suddenly possibily end game. Great for one like me who does not want to look like a glowing power ranger rainbow balloon at lvl 80.

    So can I assume you don't have any chaos items in GW1, since that would perfectly fit your glowing power ranger rainbow balloon analogy :p

  • terrantterrant Virginia Beach, VAPosts: 1,683Member

    Originally posted by gainesvilleg

    I agree that FPS games take more skill than any MMO battleground out there, although that isn't my biggest issue with MMO battlegrounds.  My biggest issue is that, other than the fantasy type skills you can choose, MMO battlegrounds are inferior in almost every objectively viewed feature.  For starters:

    1) FPS battlegrounds support more players than most MMO battlegrounds.  Very ironic, but FPS battlegrounds are more "massive"

    Really? Last I looksed, with few exceptions, most fps limit to 24x24 or smaller. There are a number of MMOs where battle sizes are similar.  And Guild wars 2 is promising MUCH larger fights. 

    2) FPS battlegrounds have many different range tactics:  melee, short, medium, and long (even across the map).  MMO battlegrounds it is only melee or short range.

    I've seen MMOs with multiple ranges. Cross-battlefield attacks being the only exception, probably because they tend to be overpowered. Let's not forget Call of Duty, where I can throw an axe 100m, bounce it off three walls, hit you in the shin, and you die.

    3) FPS battlegrounds are 3 dimensional in tactics.  There are buildins with multiple levels where you could have snipers on the roof, on the floor, etc.  There are stairway battles, hallway battles, open field battles, etc.  In an MMO battlefield, it is basically a 2D battlefield (with illusion of 3D) with most tactics being open field tactics

    You've been playing too much WoW. There are many MMOs where pvp combat is multi-level. And we've already seen it in GW2's videos.

    4) FPS battlegrounds have diverse materials.  There are glass surfaces which can break and are transparent.  You have translucent surfaces, you have opaque surfaces.  Some surfaces stop damage altogother, some mitigate it, others are basically like paper and only hide you not protect you.  They also have different sound patterns.  Different footsteps based on surface.  Stealth is actually obtained via careful play not a "Invisible button" like in an MMO battlefield.  MMO battlefields have none of the tactics of using the environment

    I will agree that destructible terrain, glass, materials you can shoot through, etc would ne an improvement many MMOs need to make. I'd also point out I've seen destructible windows in teh clock tower in GW2. Hopefully it's something we can see more of.

    5) FPS battlegrounds are much more dynamic.  There are small intervals where a helicopter might be patrolling, either for you or against you.  Your enemy might have radar out or maybe you do or maybe both do.  In all the previous scenarios, your tactics must dynamically change to fit the scenario.  And this just scratches the surface.  There are many other dynamic scenarios that pop up making tactics very emergent.  MMO battlegrounds on the other hand, purely static

    First off, the examples you list tend to be part of only a few FPS. Second, there are a few MMOs that make use of things like this in pvp too. Though I'll agree SOMETIMES we could use more of it. Many times it's just a crappy gimmick. 

    6) FPS battlegrounds are much more diverse.  Usually at least 15 maps and at least 15 or so gametypes.  And each and every map can support each and every gametype.  In an MMO battelground, you are LUCKY if there are 7 maps and usually each map supports ONE gametype

    With respect, I wonder how many FPS you've played. Map numbers notwithstanding (and I might point out, many games with that many maps only have them as payable DLC or player-made content), I can't think of many with 15 "unique" games modes. Typically it's Deathmatch, Team Deathmatch, CTF, King of the Hill, Horde, and Capture the resource points. Most every other "mode" out there is one of the above with a tiny twist. 

    7) Graphics and sound are far superior and more important in a FPS battleground over an MMO battleground.  In an FPS you actually need to listen to know where your enemies are.

    Directional sound, I'll agree, is something MMOs need to use more. I would disagree that graphics and sound are always superior though. That varies WILDLY from game to game.

    8) In addition to all the more advanced tactics in an FPS  the above 7 points illustrate, FPS games also require skill in aiming.  MMO battlegrounds are tab-target where twitch skill is meaningless.

    Something that is becoming rapidly irrelevant. Many of the "new" generation of MMOs (GW2, Tera, TSW, Archeage) are starting to stray from that model. Thankfully.

    I could really go on and on and on, but the fact is anybody that plays MMOs for the battelgrounds and esport are just wasting their time.  FPS is far superior in every single way other than if you want to choose "fantasy" type skills.  But you are giving up a lot for that.  In fact, you are giving up in every possible way just to get the fantasy skills.  Unless you just like the uber-simplified environments, uber simplified tactics, and uber simplified everything else.

    MMO battlegrounds are basically where FPS battlegrounds were around 10 years ago.  It is pathetic.

    MMO battlegrounds have also been around a lot less time. I don't believe they are as far behind as you claim, though I'll admit MMOs focus less on the development and polish of their BGs. Probably because they aren't the one-trick pony FPS games are. I'm sure you've noticed many FPS games cutting back on or eliminating their single-player function altogether,  to become nothing but a series of repetitive battlegrounds. MMOs spread development usually on multiple fields: Single player PVE, small group PVE, raid/large group PVE, small group PVP, and raid/large group PVP. Plus secondaries like exploring, crafting, and socializing. You can't fault a swiss army knife for not having as much damage potential as a broadsword, when it's designed to do about 80 things a broadsword can't.

    Lotta broad generalization there. Comments in cyan.

  • ZylaxxZylaxx Erlanger, KYPosts: 2,574Member

    Originally posted by nomatics856

    I thought mmorpgs were about progression, if I automatically wanted to get into the fray of things and have a game about 100% skill, wouldnt I play a twitched based FPS, mmorpgs should be 50% skill, 50% progression

    Enjoy playing some other elitist game that caters to your needs.  No sense in making a post that you dislike the game.  I know it suprises me too but GW2 isnt for everyone *gasp*.

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  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by gainesvilleg

    I agree that FPS games take more skill than any MMO battleground out there, although that isn't my biggest issue with MMO battlegrounds.  My biggest issue is that, other than the fantasy type skills you can choose, MMO battlegrounds are inferior in almost every objectively viewed feature.  For starters:

    1) FPS battlegrounds support more players than most MMO battlegrounds.  Very ironic, but FPS battlegrounds are more "massive"

    2) FPS battlegrounds have many different range tactics:  melee, short, medium, and long (even across the map).  MMO battlegrounds it is only melee or short range.

    3) FPS battlegrounds are 3 dimensional in tactics.  There are buildins with multiple levels where you could have snipers on the roof, on the floor, etc.  There are stairway battles, hallway battles, open field battles, etc.  In an MMO battlefield, it is basically a 2D battlefield (with illusion of 3D) with most tactics being open field tactics

    4) FPS battlegrounds have diverse materials.  There are glass surfaces which can break and are transparent.  You have translucent surfaces, you have opaque surfaces.  Some surfaces stop damage altogother, some mitigate it, others are basically like paper and only hide you not protect you.  They also have different sound patterns.  Different footsteps based on surface.  Stealth is actually obtained via careful play not a "Invisible button" like in an MMO battlefield.  MMO battlefields have none of the tactics of using the environment

    5) FPS battlegrounds are much more dynamic.  There are small intervals where a helicopter might be patrolling, either for you or against you.  Your enemy might have radar out or maybe you do or maybe both do.  In all the previous scenarios, your tactics must dynamically change to fit the scenario.  And this just scratches the surface.  There are many other dynamic scenarios that pop up making tactics very emergent.  MMO battlegrounds on the other hand, purely static

    6) FPS battlegrounds are much more diverse.  Usually at least 15 maps and at least 15 or so gametypes.  And each and every map can support each and every gametype.  In an MMO battelground, you are LUCKY if there are 7 maps and usually each map supports ONE gametype

    7) Graphics and sound are far superior and more important in a FPS battleground over an MMO battleground.  In an FPS you actually need to listen to know where your enemies are.

    8) In addition to all the more advanced tactics in an FPS  the above 7 points illustrate, FPS games also require skill in aiming.  MMO battlegrounds are tab-target where twitch skill is meaningless.

    I could really go on and on and on, but the fact is anybody that plays MMOs for the battelgrounds and esport are just wasting their time.  FPS is far superior in every single way other than if you want to choose "fantasy" type skills.  But you are giving up a lot for that.  In fact, you are giving up in every possible way just to get the fantasy skills.  Unless you just like the uber-simplified environments, uber simplified tactics, and uber simplified everything else.

    MMO battlegrounds are basically where FPS battlegrounds were around 10 years ago.  It is pathetic.

    While you do make some valid points, you also completely failed to follow my point (yes there was a message under that picture). You are in the GW2 forums, not the general MMO forums, please READ up on the game before posting.

    Almost none of your points apply to this game.

    The only points that are really valid in this context, are 1, 6, & 7 (8 is debateable). Furthermore, outside of this game, there ARE FPS MMOs. Not a ton, but you have planetside, APB, and soon to be planetside 2 / TSW. And while graphically they may not be as good as Crysis, it's not a huge gamebreaker for most people. Furthermore, it's been known for years now that it's impossible to make an MMO with the same graphics of a FPS without instancing the crap out of it. FPS games have dedicated servers for each game, and most have more localized maps. MMOs do not. So while your battleground may only have ~10 people in it, the server is supporting more than 10 players in OTHER battlegrounds. Kind of a big difference.

    Anyway, back to GW2: There is many different tactics (melee, short range, long range, traps, across-the-map (trebuchets)), there are 3 dimensional tactics (not on par w/ a game like BF3, but lets get realistic here), there are diverse materials (glass, water, stone, fabric, wood, etc.), there are dynamic elements, and there is a certain degree of aiming. All of this can be seen in any of the plethora of Battle of Khylo videos, not to mention some of the WvW videos in which a siege is taking place.

    The reason I posted was not to point out that FPS games take more skill that just twitch (although I do agree with you on that), it was more because doing even a small amount of research into the combat of this game shows how GW2 (the game whos forums we're in) has far more to the combat than twitch skills. Even on a very basic level.

  • MavacarMavacar GothenburgPosts: 328Member

    Originally posted by Kakkzooka

    Originally posted by Kalfer


    Originally posted by Volkon

    That's accurate. PvP gear has it's own look, each dungeon has it's own look, etc. Level 80 gear is all comparable in stats. You can even transfer those level 80 stats onto level 20 gear if you like how that looks better.

     

    With everything being able to use transmutation stones COMBINED with the OUTRAGOUS Dye system, it further diminishes the cash shop. people can make all the gear from lvl 1 all the way up to lvl 80 their preferenced gear.

     

    Results:

     

    1) no more clones.

    2) everyone can look super unique

    3) an entire games worth of equipment is suddenly possibily end game. Great for one like me who does not want to look like a glowing power ranger rainbow balloon at lvl 80.



    I want my character to look like Nyan Cat after a platefull of special brownies.



    Made me think of this ^^

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diRurYCvngg

  • Goll25Goll25 bath, PAPosts: 187Member

    gw1 had, it they could only participate in pvp. I see no problem here, rather a good thing to increase competitiveness. 

  • BillMurphyBillMurphy Managing Editor Berea, OHPosts: 2,356MMORPG.COM Staff Uncommon

    I'm way late to this, but in case anyone hasn't said it:

    When in WvW, whatever level you are "really" in the world, you'll collect gear and XP for that level.  So while you'll be a "fake 80" in the mists, you'll still be REALLY leveling your character, finding loot for your character, and getting XP that's appropriate for your level.  You can effectively play level 1-80 in the Mists and never touch the outside world, but you'd be missing a lot.

  • gainesvilleggainesvilleg Gainesville, FLPosts: 1,053Member

    Originally posted by terrant

    Originally posted by gainesvilleg

    I agree that FPS games take more skill than any MMO battleground out there, although that isn't my biggest issue with MMO battlegrounds.  My biggest issue is that, other than the fantasy type skills you can choose, MMO battlegrounds are inferior in almost every objectively viewed feature.  For starters:

    1) FPS battlegrounds support more players than most MMO battlegrounds.  Very ironic, but FPS battlegrounds are more "massive"

    Really? Last I looksed, with few exceptions, most fps limit to 24x24 or smaller. There are a number of MMOs where battle sizes are similar.  And Guild wars 2 is promising MUCH larger fights. 

    Please list those MMO BATTLEGROUNDS that are greater than 24x24.  There are very very few.  We are talking about esport battlegrounds now, not open world PVP (which MMOs are far superior at open world over FPS) or the RvRvR non-esport.  Remember, this was an esport discussion.

    2) FPS battlegrounds have many different range tactics:  melee, short, medium, and long (even across the map).  MMO battlegrounds it is only melee or short range.

    I've seen MMOs with multiple ranges. Cross-battlefield attacks being the only exception, probably because they tend to be overpowered. Let's not forget Call of Duty, where I can throw an axe 100m, bounce it off three walls, hit you in the shin, and you die.

    Please list these MMO battlegrounds with multiple ranges.  Every fantasy MMO battleground I've played have had a rather limited range, under 30-40 meters or so, which I'm lumping into short-range.  If you want to call that medium range fine.  But the fact is, there are no long range tactics which are very important to team play.  And NO, long range tactics are not overpowered, they are situational.  That axe which ricochet off the walls 100 meters away you've probably only seen on youtube because that is extraordinarily rare.  That is why people post it to youtube.

    3) FPS battlegrounds are 3 dimensional in tactics.  There are buildins with multiple levels where you could have snipers on the roof, on the floor, etc.  There are stairway battles, hallway battles, open field battles, etc.  In an MMO battlefield, it is basically a 2D battlefield (with illusion of 3D) with most tactics being open field tactics

    You've been playing too much WoW. There are many MMOs where pvp combat is multi-level. And we've already seen it in GW2's videos.

    I have not seen true 3D tactics in any fantasy battelground nor GW2 videos.  It is the illusion of 3D not truly 3D.  There is a huge difference.  This type of illusion the orginal Doom had in 1991.

    4) FPS battlegrounds have diverse materials.  There are glass surfaces which can break and are transparent.  You have translucent surfaces, you have opaque surfaces.  Some surfaces stop damage altogother, some mitigate it, others are basically like paper and only hide you not protect you.  They also have different sound patterns.  Different footsteps based on surface.  Stealth is actually obtained via careful play not a "Invisible button" like in an MMO battlefield.  MMO battlefields have none of the tactics of using the environment

    I will agree that destructible terrain, glass, materials you can shoot through, etc would ne an improvement many MMOs need to make. I'd also point out I've seen destructible windows in teh clock tower in GW2. Hopefully it's something we can see more of.

    I sure hope MMO battlegrounds start taking some baby steps in some of these features.  I've seen one tower destroy in GW2 video but didn't see how it affected gameplay.  The fact is though MMO battlegrounds are years behind the modern FPS.

    5) FPS battlegrounds are much more dynamic.  There are small intervals where a helicopter might be patrolling, either for you or against you.  Your enemy might have radar out or maybe you do or maybe both do.  In all the previous scenarios, your tactics must dynamically change to fit the scenario.  And this just scratches the surface.  There are many other dynamic scenarios that pop up making tactics very emergent.  MMO battlegrounds on the other hand, purely static

    First off, the examples you list tend to be part of only a few FPS. Second, there are a few MMOs that make use of things like this in pvp too. Though I'll agree SOMETIMES we could use more of it. Many times it's just a crappy gimmick. 

    Again what MMOs are you talking about?  I haven't seen dynamic gameply like that in any MMO battleground.  And if you think having radar, or a helicopter, or dogs, etc is a crappy gimmick you are probably the type of noob who ignores it and gets slaughtered.  Tactics that need to change dynamically is something MMO battlegrounds haven't even attempted yet.

    6) FPS battlegrounds are much more diverse.  Usually at least 15 maps and at least 15 or so gametypes.  And each and every map can support each and every gametype.  In an MMO battelground, you are LUCKY if there are 7 maps and usually each map supports ONE gametype

    With respect, I wonder how many FPS you've played. Map numbers notwithstanding (and I might point out, many games with that many maps only have them as payable DLC or player-made content), I can't think of many with 15 "unique" games modes. Typically it's Deathmatch, Team Deathmatch, CTF, King of the Hill, Horde, and Capture the resource points. Most every other "mode" out there is one of the above with a tiny twist. 

    In fact there are often well over 15 unique gamemodes.  And you act like a "tiny twist" is meaningless.  You mean a "tiny twist" like friend fire, or no radar, or bullets do more damage, etc?  Those "Minor twists" that completely change how you need to play.  In fact, many FPS games have oer 30 game types if you add up all the twists.  MMO battleground variety is absolutly pathetic.

    7) Graphics and sound are far superior and more important in a FPS battleground over an MMO battleground.  In an FPS you actually need to listen to know where your enemies are.

    Directional sound, I'll agree, is something MMOs need to use more. I would disagree that graphics and sound are always superior though. That varies WILDLY from game to game.

    We are taliking the modern FPS versus the modern MMO.  Sound and graphics are superior in the modern FPS in my opinion.  Much more smoke/fog effects and dynamic debris blowing in the wind for instance that are actually meaninhful to gameplay.  We could dive deeper on this but I actually don't care that much about the graphics aspect I figured I'd lump it in with sound, which I think is uber-important.

    8) In addition to all the more advanced tactics in an FPS  the above 7 points illustrate, FPS games also require skill in aiming.  MMO battlegrounds are tab-target where twitch skill is meaningless.

    Something that is becoming rapidly irrelevant. Many of the "new" generation of MMOs (GW2, Tera, TSW, Archeage) are starting to stray from that model. Thankfully.

    GW2 is tab target. 

    I could really go on and on and on, but the fact is anybody that plays MMOs for the battelgrounds and esport are just wasting their time.  FPS is far superior in every single way other than if you want to choose "fantasy" type skills.  But you are giving up a lot for that.  In fact, you are giving up in every possible way just to get the fantasy skills.  Unless you just like the uber-simplified environments, uber simplified tactics, and uber simplified everything else.

    MMO battlegrounds are basically where FPS battlegrounds were around 10 years ago.  It is pathetic.

    MMO battlegrounds have also been around a lot less time. I don't believe they are as far behind as you claim, though I'll admit MMOs focus less on the development and polish of their BGs. Probably because they aren't the one-trick pony FPS games are. I'm sure you've noticed many FPS games cutting back on or eliminating their single-player function altogether,  to become nothing but a series of repetitive battlegrounds. MMOs spread development usually on multiple fields: Single player PVE, small group PVE, raid/large group PVE, small group PVP, and raid/large group PVP. Plus secondaries like exploring, crafting, and socializing. You can't fault a swiss army knife for not having as much damage potential as a broadsword, when it's designed to do about 80 things a broadsword can't.

    First of all MMO battlegrounds have been around long enough now that I won't let that be an excuse.  And FPS battlegrounds have gotten away somewhat from single-player campaigns but not single player modes.  Survival modes, COOP missions, etc are very strong in some games.  But you also neglect to mention that FPS games have actually caught up in many of the leveling and skill-based tailoring that used to be only the domain of RPG games.  I can craft my FPS avatar with as much finesse and variety as in many MMORPG games.

    Lotta broad generalization there. Comments in cyan.

     

    GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
    1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
    2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements

  • KuinnKuinn MestaPosts: 2,093Member

    Originally posted by nomatics856

    I thought mmorpgs were about progression, if I automatically wanted to get into the fray of things and have a game about 100% skill, wouldnt I play a twitched based FPS, mmorpgs should be 50% skill, 50% progression

     

    I thought mmorpgs were about being big games with lots to do in them with a lot of people. There's no notes in my memo about neccessary char progression. Also, there is char progression, just not in the instanced PvP, it could be a good thing considering players who just want to PvP in "arenas" and dont give a crap about the big world. /shrug

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid hell, NJPosts: 6,766Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by nomatics856

    I thought mmorpgs were about progression, if I automatically wanted to get into the fray of things and have a game about 100% skill, wouldnt I play a twitched based FPS, mmorpgs should be 50% skill, 50% progression

    that is called sidekicking system. If you are level 1 and your friend is lvl 80 and he is bored playing alone you group up with your friend and you sidekick to lvl 80 to play with your friend. Upon leaving the group you level goes back to one and you get your lowbie crappy gear back. He can also sidekick to level 1 and progress with you on lowbie areas. Several mmos have that feature. I think the best reason to use sidekicking is the example i gave you about friends.

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  • aithieelaithieel WroclawPosts: 232Member

    Originally posted by Robsolf

    Originally posted by garretth





    I am a PVE'r at heart...and like to role-play (light).  I've never liked the pvp in games like WOW very much although I would attempt to pvp (even as low level player) if we were being invaded.   Guess what happened.   I couldn't even touch a level 80 char.

    They could kill me with one swipe and there I'd be dead and watching them storm into my home city.   Even if 10 of us lowbies were fighting a level 80 it made no difference...unless you were 80 you couldn't touch them.   I hated having to stand and watch a bunch of level 80's storm into my home city and I felt helpless....they was NOTHING I could do to prevent the attack.

    That was no real contest...the lvl 80 was getting kills but no challenge ... we were getting killed but no challenge...can't kill something you can't hit.

    NOW, we will have challenge.  Everytime you go into pvp, you will be facing folks that can fight back, that can kill and be killed.

    For the FIRST time, I am excited about PVP.  

     

    Took the words out of my... ummm... fingers.

    If there's anything more annoying than losing in PvP because you're lower level, it's winning because you're higher level.

    Progression in PvP just doesn't work.  Or I should say, it doesn't work for people that want an honest to goodness challenge.  I think GW2 just might create a massive "Well, duh!!!  Why didn't we think of that?" moment in development history with this.

    Can't help but wonder if it may even have a Trammel effect on other MMOPvP games...

    We shall see.

     

    In GW 1 it wat treated the same way. Noone had adventage. You could create level 20 pvp character and compete with others. Only your skills mattered, no level or pro-uber gear. That's why I loved pvp in GW and I'm sure I'll like it in GW2.

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  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member

    Originally posted by rojo6934

    Originally posted by nomatics856

    I thought mmorpgs were about progression, if I automatically wanted to get into the fray of things and have a game about 100% skill, wouldnt I play a twitched based FPS, mmorpgs should be 50% skill, 50% progression

    that is called sidekicking system. If you are level 1 and your friend is lvl 80 and he is bored playing alone you group up with your friend and you sidekick to lvl 80 to play with your friend. Upon leaving the group you level goes back to one and you get your lowbie crappy gear back. He can also sidekick to level 1 and progress with you on lowbie areas. Several mmos have that feature. I think the best reason to use sidekicking is the example i gave you about friends.

    I'm pretty sure that levelling up only applies to PvP and WvW however... not PvE. In PvE, you'll be levelled down, but not up.

    Oderint, dum metuant.
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  • EvilGeekEvilGeek londonPosts: 1,225Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Volkon

    Originally posted by rojo6934

    Originally posted by nomatics856

    I thought mmorpgs were about progression, if I automatically wanted to get into the fray of things and have a game about 100% skill, wouldnt I play a twitched based FPS, mmorpgs should be 50% skill, 50% progression
    that is called sidekicking system. If you are level 1 and your friend is lvl 80 and he is bored playing alone you group up with your friend and you sidekick to lvl 80 to play with your friend. Upon leaving the group you level goes back to one and you get your lowbie crappy gear back. He can also sidekick to level 1 and progress with you on lowbie areas. Several mmos have that feature. I think the best reason to use sidekicking is the example i gave you about friends.


    I'm pretty sure that levelling up only applies to PvP and WvW however... not PvE. In PvE, you'll be levelled down, but not up.

    It used to be thought that sidekicking in GW2 was both ways but as yet we haven't seen any video or heard any reports of that being the case, I haven't seen anything where a player is sidekicking another player up to their level. We know there's an auto down kick for lower levels with no auto up kick for higher levels.

    image
  • st4t1ckst4t1ck jonesboro, GAPosts: 600Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by EvilGeek

     




    Originally posted by Volkon





    Originally posted by rojo6934






    Originally posted by nomatics856



    I thought mmorpgs were about progression, if I automatically wanted to get into the fray of things and have a game about 100% skill, wouldnt I play a twitched based FPS, mmorpgs should be 50% skill, 50% progression






    that is called sidekicking system. If you are level 1 and your friend is lvl 80 and he is bored playing alone you group up with your friend and you sidekick to lvl 80 to play with your friend. Upon leaving the group you level goes back to one and you get your lowbie crappy gear back. He can also sidekick to level 1 and progress with you on lowbie areas. Several mmos have that feature. I think the best reason to use sidekicking is the example i gave you about friends.





    I'm pretty sure that levelling up only applies to PvP and WvW however... not PvE. In PvE, you'll be levelled down, but not up.



     

    It used to be thought that sidekicking in GW2 was both ways but as yet we haven't seen any video or heard any reports of that being the case, I haven't seen anything where a player is sidekicking another player up to their level. We know there's an auto down kick for lower levels with no auto up kick for higher levels.

    Only because there was no need in the beta, the npc would level you up.  you can sidekick up or down,

    1. you auto level down to the content of the area you are in.

    2. someone in your group can sidekick you to there level if they are higher then you.

    edit* a quote from the gw2 wiki. i dont feel like looking up the anet blog about it

    In PvE, a character wanting to play higher level content can be sidekicked by a higher-level character to increase their level. While in World PvP, any character will be sidekicked automatically to level 80 to fight against other worlds.[3]

  • KalferKalfer HappylandPosts: 779Member

    Originally posted by EvilGeek



    Originally posted by Volkon

    I'm pretty sure that levelling up only applies to PvP and WvW however... not PvE. In PvE, you'll be levelled down, but not up.

    It used to be thought that sidekicking in GW2 was both ways but as yet we haven't seen any video or heard any reports of that being the case, I haven't seen anything where a player is sidekicking another player up to their level. We know there's an auto down kick for lower levels with no auto up kick for higher levels.

    It's still part of the game for sure. 

     

    In beta, a npc instantly makes you lvl 30 if you want to, but there was no high level players running around to buff people up.

     

    The way it works, is that you have to be grouped with a higher level player. And you don't get new skills or anything. You just get enough hp to survive and be able to help out. and you need to be close to your "grouped mentor" or you will lose the effect and die horrible deaths with item decay of a thousand burning suns. 

     

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid hell, NJPosts: 6,766Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Volkon

    Originally posted by rojo6934


    Originally posted by nomatics856

    I thought mmorpgs were about progression, if I automatically wanted to get into the fray of things and have a game about 100% skill, wouldnt I play a twitched based FPS, mmorpgs should be 50% skill, 50% progression

    that is called sidekicking system. If you are level 1 and your friend is lvl 80 and he is bored playing alone you group up with your friend and you sidekick to lvl 80 to play with your friend. Upon leaving the group you level goes back to one and you get your lowbie crappy gear back. He can also sidekick to level 1 and progress with you on lowbie areas. Several mmos have that feature. I think the best reason to use sidekicking is the example i gave you about friends.

    I'm pretty sure that levelling up only applies to PvP and WvW however... not PvE. In PvE, you'll be levelled down, but not up.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uP3yDL-b2fY

    :)

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  • JupstoJupsto englandPosts: 2,087Member

    Originally posted by BillMurphy

    I'm way late to this, but in case anyone hasn't said it:

    When in WvW, whatever level you are "really" in the world, you'll collect gear and XP for that level.  So while you'll be a "fake 80" in the mists, you'll still be REALLY leveling your character, finding loot for your character, and getting XP that's appropriate for your level.  You can effectively play level 1-80 in the Mists and never touch the outside world, but you'd be missing a lot.

    and even cooler still is that if you did level to 80 in WvW you don't really "miss" anything cause you can always go back there get scaled down and it will be just as challenging as it would have been.

    you'd think these sorts of innovations would become industry standard, but fact is they will not. I mean alot of this stuff was already introduced yonks ago in gw1 and no one else seems to have picked it up. I guess because subscription games need to make you run on the hamster wheel in order to make revenue.

    My blog: image

  • fiontarfiontar Dana, MAPosts: 3,719Member

    Originally posted by st4t1ck

    Originally posted by EvilGeek

     




    Originally posted by Volkon






    Originally posted by rojo6934






    Originally posted by nomatics856



    I thought mmorpgs were about progression, if I automatically wanted to get into the fray of things and have a game about 100% skill, wouldnt I play a twitched based FPS, mmorpgs should be 50% skill, 50% progression






    that is called sidekicking system. If you are level 1 and your friend is lvl 80 and he is bored playing alone you group up with your friend and you sidekick to lvl 80 to play with your friend. Upon leaving the group you level goes back to one and you get your lowbie crappy gear back. He can also sidekick to level 1 and progress with you on lowbie areas. Several mmos have that feature. I think the best reason to use sidekicking is the example i gave you about friends.






    I'm pretty sure that levelling up only applies to PvP and WvW however... not PvE. In PvE, you'll be levelled down, but not up.




     

    It used to be thought that sidekicking in GW2 was both ways but as yet we haven't seen any video or heard any reports of that being the case, I haven't seen anything where a player is sidekicking another player up to their level. We know there's an auto down kick for lower levels with no auto up kick for higher levels.

    Only because there was no need in the beta, the npc would level you up.  you can sidekick up or down,

    1. you auto level down to the content of the area you are in.

    2. someone in your group can sidekick you to there level if they are higher then you.

    edit* a quote from the gw2 wiki. i dont feel like looking up the anet blog about it

    In PvE, a character wanting to play higher level content can be sidekicked by a higher-level character to increase their level. While in World PvP, any character will be sidekicked automatically to level 80 to fight against other worlds.[3]

    This is correct.

    CPVP: Everyone becomes a true level 80 with full skill unlocks, trait points and max stat gear. This isn't side-kicking, your CPVP character is more a maxed out clone/doppleganger of your PvE character.

    WvW: Everyone is auto side-kicked up to an effective level of 80, but skills and trait points are basd on your true level and you bring your own gear.

    PvE: Normal character progression. You are auto-side-kicked down for lower level content and can be actively side-kicked up by another player in your group.

    Loot and Side-kicking: In WvW and PvE, loot you earn is based on your true level, not your side-kicked level. So, you @ level 30 you can do level 10 content, be scaled down to level 10, but get loot and XP appropriate for a level 30. Also, if you are sidekicked up to level 60 content by a friend, you don't get level 60 loot/XP, you get level 30 rewards.

    When you are sidekicked down in level, you may not be able to obtain the rarest loot table items for your level. So, your level 30 character doing level 10 content would indeed get rolls on the level 30 loot table, but you may not have a chance at random epic gear from that table.

    No idea if sidekicking up in level has any effect on your loot table rolls.

    You can earn XP and loot in WvW. The goal is for leveling rate and loot accumulation in WvW to be on par with adventuring in the PvE world.

    Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
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