I guess since people also glitch, hack, and mod a game Anet should just endorse that as well?
I was trying to show you that these types of games will never be completely fair. Don't really know where you are going with this question.
I guess it doesn't concern you at all that this form of gold selling that Anet now endorses could get you a lifetime account ban in some games?
It wouldn't, they would never find out. Did you read why they won't be able to find out? If I am selling gold between comrades only we know. Sure it will show up this character traded that character x amount of gold on some server log. But they can't go banning accounts because they think it is gold selling. They have no proof all parties involved will just say they were sharing amongst pals. But of course we both no that isn't the case it is cheating.
I'm sorry but that argument is just a poor line of thinking.
Did you read the part about making everything soulbound even currency to make the game completely fair? Because that is what it would ultimately take in the end even if there was no cash shop. But you could still share your account over a vpn or sell/trade it. So what I am trying to get out of you is since you pretty much already know all of what I said about item selling and gold selling, why do you keep egging this thread on? I mean you seem like a pretty smart person yet you keep trying to sway people to look away from Guild Wars 2. Why is that?
Instead of me repeating my rather clear argument hoping you will understand it, I would love for you to tell me all the advantages you are going to get.
OMG
That's how I felt when I saw people actually thought this would be an issue.
You are now entering a no-spin zone. If you feel the need to jump through hoops to justify certain models of cash shops, kindly exit the thread. We don't need spin doctors and cash shop apologists polluting the conversation here. Thank you!
[...]
I feel this is a fair definition of an advantage as it relates to games with cash shops.
Sorry, but your feelings have no place in the spin zone that you've created. As such I strike you and everything you've written from the court of reasonable discussion.
I guess since people also glitch, hack, and mod a game Anet should just endorse that as well?
I was trying to show you that these types of games will never be completely fair. Don't really know where you are going with this question.
I guess it doesn't concern you at all that this form of gold selling that Anet now endorses could get you a lifetime account ban in some games?
It wouldn't, they would never find out. Did you read why they won't be able to find out? If I am selling gold between comrades only we know. Sure it will show up this character traded that character x amount of gold on some server log. But they can't go banning accounts because they think it is gold selling. They have no proof all parties involved will just say they were sharing amongst pals. But of course we both no that isn't the case it is cheating.
I'm sorry but that argument is just a poor line of thinking.
Did you read the part about making everything soulbound even currency to make the game completely fair? Because that is what it would ultimately take in the end even if there was no cash shop. But you could still share your account over a vpn or sell/trade it. So what I am trying to get out of you is since you pretty much already know all of what I said about item selling and gold selling, why do you keep egging this thread on? I mean you seem like a pretty smart person yet you keep trying to sway people to look away from Guild Wars 2. Why is that?
I'm not trying to "sway people to look away from GW2." Not at all. I am trying to influence GW2's direction in the only small tiny way I can. By speaking out about it and making it clear that some gamers, me at least, have a line in the sand that cannot be crossed when it comes to microtransactions. Sure I'm only one person, but there are a lot of people like me and we can influence the games direction still. Anet is listening and have already removed some items. They are well aware of the firestorm of controversy the cash shop is having right now.
I've been on/off the GW2 bandwagon multiple times over the last few months. There are things I like and things I don't but I would I think eventually have decided to buy it if not for their recent cash shop direction. The items in the cash shop are far more egregious than they initially let on and it is very annoying.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
As someone who only wants to PvE and has nil interest in WvWvW, you can have all the advantage you want. If you get ahead of me in leveling or have more gold, I couldn't care less, I'll get there in my own time.
I will still use the cash shop if I enjoy the game, as is my way with all F2P/B2P titles, I have no issues with spending some money on a regular basis, that's what keeps the servers up, after all.
I guess since people also glitch, hack, and mod a game Anet should just endorse that as well?
I was trying to show you that these types of games will never be completely fair. Don't really know where you are going with this question.
I guess it doesn't concern you at all that this form of gold selling that Anet now endorses could get you a lifetime account ban in some games?
It wouldn't, they would never find out. Did you read why they won't be able to find out? If I am selling gold between comrades only we know. Sure it will show up this character traded that character x amount of gold on some server log. But they can't go banning accounts because they think it is gold selling. They have no proof all parties involved will just say they were sharing amongst pals. But of course we both no that isn't the case it is cheating.
I'm sorry but that argument is just a poor line of thinking.
Did you read the part about making everything soulbound even currency to make the game completely fair? Because that is what it would ultimately take in the end even if there was no cash shop. But you could still share your account over a vpn or sell/trade it. So what I am trying to get out of you is since you pretty much already know all of what I said about item selling and gold selling, why do you keep egging this thread on? I mean you seem like a pretty smart person yet you keep trying to sway people to look away from Guild Wars 2. Why is that?
I'm not trying to "sway people to look away from GW2." Not at all. I am trying to influence GW2's direction in the only small tiny way I can. By speaking out about it and making it clear that some gamers, me at least, have a line in the sand that cannot be crossed when it comes to microtransactions. Sure I'm only one person, but there are a lot of people like me and we can influence the games direction still. Anet is listening and have already removed some items. They are well aware of the firestorm of controversy the cash shop is having right now.
I've been on/off the GW2 bandwagon multiple times over the last few months. There are things I like and things I don't but I would I think eventually have decided to buy it if not for their recent cash shop direction. The items in the cash shop are far more egregious than they initially let on and it is very annoying.
Trust me I understand where you are coming from, and I am sorry that I was yelling at you with my capitals. I just needed to get your viewpoint. I hate to break it to you though unless all items are soulbound even currency these games will never be fair. So I'll ask you this question like I did geeteefeeoh or however you spell it, you know who I am talking about, do you think ArenaNet should allow the players to run the servers? If they can't do it right then let us. But we both know that ain't happenin' unfortunately. :'( So we have to make compromises, and even without the cash shop we still have to compromise with the currency and items that could theoretically still be sold for real currency out of game along with accounts. I can still remember the amount of spam that took place in Guild Wars so it is going to happen one way or the other. But they are compromising with more of the playerbase as a whole by not pressuring their players to pay a reoccuring fee. This is all under the assumption that the game requires more server power to keep it running. I won't be able to pay those things. I don't agree with them. So if the game had a reoccuring fee I wouldn't be the one missing out, it's the players in game who are because I could be helping them.
Op: you want an open and honest discussion yet set bounderies that only a handful of people can truly identify themselves with. That's not wanting an open and honest discussion. That's a narrow minded discussion.
First of like most of your peers you assume an item sold in Cash Shop A is seen as P2W, because it gives a clear advatantage, that a similar item in Cash Shop B is also P2W The thing is you then fail to view said item as it relates to the game. In one it might be an advantage while in the other it is not. Context is everything, without it all discussion is meaningless.
Furthermore the discussion really isn't that hard, but the wrong viewpoint is being used in my opinion. The current viewpoint most used is that another player has an advantage when using such an item. It's the whole grass is always greener thing that people are stuck in. The viewpoint should be: does him/her using such and such item detract from MY gaming experience.
Does it matter that another player got to the end of the road faster then you. At first glance you can say he has an advantage, but like people who have been powerleveled there is a good chance that he/she lacks knowledge about the class he is playing, because he skipped facets of the game that taught how to handle certain situations. Having to learn a class is a lot harder at the end then it is on the way.
Aside from that there is the question does it matter if a player is higher level then me however the way he got there. Be it playing more or using some other method. If it detracts from YOUR game experience, becuase he can steal resources or he can gank you or any other reason that ruins your experience, then it boosts are P2W in my book. If on the other hand it is meaningless if another player is higher level then it is not P2W. It's all about context.
Let's take an example from a Cash Shop that is not GW2 related. AoC sells lower rank PvP gear in their shop. Is that P2W? When 2 players both start PvPing at the same time one with bought armor and the other without then the player without will view it as P2W. If that same player who bought armor faces someone who has maxed PvP armor is it still P2W or is it a way to catch up on the gear grind. You will have arguments for both sides because it is personal. So again it boils down to: does such an item detract from my gaming experience.
How about this argument. I've only had experience with corrupt goverments so all goverments are corrupt from my perspective meaning your goverment is corrupt. From my point of view I'm correct because that is my experience, but I'm not looking at the context at all then. It might well be corrupt, but it might not be. Corrupt is subjective as well of course.
For the record I didn't vote because I don't share your extremely black and white without context viewpoints
Not going to Lie, read the OP and skim the rest of the thread...
When you are opening a discussion to a topic, and you set the topic definitions (as per your understanding or opinion of the topic), you are not inviting discussion of any sort. All you are doing is inviting people who agree with your definitions of what an advantage is.
There is no Rat-Race in GW2 to be the first level 80 on your server, or even the world, so gaining boosts - such as the ones you have described - are not much of an advantage.
If someone can play the game 5 hours, and I only have time to spend 4 hours in the game, the person who spent 5 hours in-game has an advantage over me. If we want things to be fair, lets just have opening hours for MMO's from 6PM - 12AM, and if you dont start playing at 6PM, I'm sorry but you were late, youre fired.
There is a line with cash shops, that developers need to be careful of, because if they cross it they may alienate their community, but I don't see Cosmetic or Convenience Items such as temporary XP boosts as being over that line.
"The problem with quotes from the Internet is that it's almost impossible to validate their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln
I find purchasing advantages totally game-defeating. I don't even bother with games like that. If I buy better gear I'll just feel less good if I win (Did I win because I'm a good player or just because I have better stats?) and I'll feel worse if I loose (jeez, if i couldn't win with uber gear than I'm pretty bad...)
(Btw, his argument goes for PvE as well. Just substitute "win" with "complete that difficult dungeon which gives you prestige with other players")
So, by "paying to win" you actually pay to enjoy the game less. That's the way I see it. I'll happily cough up the dough for cosmetic items, subs, merchandise, whatever, if I enjoy the game, but I'll never pay for advantages because it is self-defeating. I'd be paying money to actually enjoy the game less.
Instead of me repeating my rather clear argument hoping you will understand it, I would love for you to tell me all the advantages you are going to get.
OMG
That's how I felt when I saw people actually thought this would be an issue.
It's irrelevant if arena net sell you gold directly or indirectly. All those pay 2 win games dont' sell gold directly. But everyone hate it. Because gold have meaning in those game.
I can use gold to buy many things in those game. Godly gear, skill boost upgrade, wings to boost upgrade, material to level up crafting, exp boost.
My point is I dont' know why you keep stressing arena net isn't selling you gold direcly. All those pay 2 win games that sell diamonds, stones, rubies, gems didn't sell me gold directly too.
The only thing that matter is if the gold or gem is even relevant. And hopely in GW2, gold or gem isn't important at all. If you really want to defend GW2 that much what you should stress is gold and gem isn't even important.
Quite honestly I can't even think of a mmorpg that sell gold directly. To my very limited mmorpg knowledge I think a few of them sell rubies, diamonds, stones. And people hate it.
You are now entering my thread and I will not tolerate anything other than sheer agreement with my opinion. To create the illusion of some sense of discussion, I will now create a narrow definition based on personal preference and misinformation so that I can properly smack down anyone that disagrees by saying they are off topic.
Let's talk about blah blah blah, subjective skew bias bias... modifying game rules even though it is a game rule... rant babble spew... repeat the same thing three times but rearrange the words... babblybablez
Let's not limit it to only paying for advantages. What about those who get advantages from having more game time? If you are going to be honest, that needs to be balanced as well. There are also computer and network advantages that can matter in some design approaches.
After you solve those small problems, what are you going to do to balance people with physical differences? Mental differences?
There are many factors that just don't include paying for advantages. Address all of them OR none of them.
Good points, WayneJr2.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I play MMOs to relax and get my mind off of the real world.
When there's a non-cosmetic cash shop in a game that offers any sort of advantage or boost, I find myself constantly running cost benefit analysis in my head as to whether I should spend a few bucks to same myself some time... which kills my immersion and enjoyment of the game.
This is even before considering what advantages player do or do not have from a cash shop.
The only hope for GW2 is that those who are in Beta are less spineless than those on these boards.
So people are spineless if they dont see things they way some of you do. They cant just actually like the way the system is. They cant be happy that they can buy cosmetics and account services with in game gold.
The only hope for GW2 is that those who are in Beta are less spineless than those on these boards.
So people are spineless if they dont see things they way some of you do. They cant just actually like the way the system is. They cant be happy that they can buy cosmetics and account services with in game gold.
The only hope for GW2 is that those who are in Beta are less spineless than those on these boards.
So people are spineless if they dont see things they way some of you do. They cant just actually like the way the system is. They cant be happy that they can buy cosmetics and account services with in game gold.
Really, cosmetic and account services ONLY?
thats not the point, i used what im gonna buy in the shop. no matter whats in the shop if someone actually likes it its there choice to stand up for it. If they sold weapons more powerfull then anything in the game I think it would be wrong but someone else who doesnt isnt spineless for saying so
The only hope for GW2 is that those who are in Beta are less spineless than those on these boards.
So people are spineless if they dont see things they way some of you do. They cant just actually like the way the system is. They cant be happy that they can buy cosmetics and account services with in game gold.
Really, cosmetic and account services ONLY?
thats not the point, i used what im gonna buy in the shop. no matter whats in the shop if someone actually likes it its there choice to stand up for it. If they sold weapons more powerfull then anything in the game I think it would be wrong but someone else who doesnt isnt spineless for saying so
It's very much EXACTLY the point.
Anet originally stated it would be limited to cosmetic and account services, but from what's been leaked this is very much not the cast.
They're a company out to make money, I get that. They will push the cash sho boundries as far as they can until gamers push back and draw the line in the sand as to what it generally found acceptable. Not speaking up against where you feel the line is and simply 'putting up' with things without saying a word is as RefMinor said, spineless.
Let's not limit it to only paying for advantages. What about those who get advantages from having more game time? If you are going to be honest, that needs to be balanced as well. There are also computer and network advantages that can matter in some design approaches.
After you solve those small problems, what are you going to do to balance people with physical differences? Mental differences?
There are many factors that just don't include paying for advantages. Address all of them OR none of them.
All of these are externalities that are not controllable by a developer. A developer-created cash shop, however, is. If you wish to discuss external factors that impact MMORPGs this is not the thread to do so. Please stay on topic.
So if you start 3 weeks before me and level to max, and I buy a xp boost potion, what advantage do I gain over you?
If your potion gets you 4 weeks of xp you may be able to get better armour and kill me in open PvP, you have purchased an advantage over me, do you approve of that?
Unless most armor has equal stats max level.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
You are now entering a no-spin zone. If you feel the need to jump through hoops to justify certain models of cash shops, kindly exit the thread. We don't need spin doctors and cash shop apologists polluting the conversation here. Thank you!
Starting a thread off using a line from Fox News is the worst way to start off a thread...following it up with what is basically you stating that you dont want to hear anyone that disagrees with you basically proves that anything you will be saying is worthless talking points that wont stand up to counterpoints.
Congrats.
GW2 should be a great game since its going to keep certain types of gamers away, the epeen waving gamers that are elite only in their own minds.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
I have 2 good gaming friends I've gamed with for over 15 years........thru MANY games.
We start a new game and, let's say we get to level 5 in our first session. I log in the next day, and they are both level 10 to my still level 5! Gadzooks! How can this be?
Ahhhh, now i see how! No, not any cash shop or tricks......they logged back in and played again! How UNFAIR is THAT! I had to go to work and spend some family time and they took UNFAIR advantage and played more!
This was/is a most interesting thread.......cut the cake anyway you wish, a few simple facts should be self evident.
A game must be profitable to stay alive. We cannot begrudge a company wanting to make money and for continuing to develop it's games, now can we?
AND.........MONEY and TIME are both forms of currency! Simple as that.
I say if you do not want to allow a person to use a cash shop......then limit everyones play time to 90 minures a day.......that's my normal in game time, so why should YOU get ANY advantage over me?
Yes......a silly solution. But to a VERY hot and heavily debated topic. There is no easy answer, save allowing our pocketbooks to speak for us.........perhaps if someone could devise a cash shop that somehow was more beneficial to those of us with limited time, it would be fairer.......
I do chuckle at the folks that protest the cash shops, yet feel that they get to play 75 hours a week to my 10 is NOT an unfair advantage.
The only hope for GW2 is that those who are in Beta are less spineless than those on these boards.
So people are spineless if they dont see things they way some of you do. They cant just actually like the way the system is. They cant be happy that they can buy cosmetics and account services with in game gold.
Really, cosmetic and account services ONLY?
thats not the point, i used what im gonna buy in the shop. no matter whats in the shop if someone actually likes it its there choice to stand up for it. If they sold weapons more powerfull then anything in the game I think it would be wrong but someone else who doesnt isnt spineless for saying so
It's very much EXACTLY the point.
Anet originally stated it would be limited to cosmetic and account services, but from what's been leaked this is very much not the cast.
They're a company out to make money, I get that. They will push the cash sho boundries as far as they can until gamers push back and draw the line in the sand as to what it generally found acceptable. Not speaking up against where you feel the line is and simply 'putting up' with things without saying a word is as RefMinor said, spineless.
Where your line is and where others are could be miles away. Someone isnt "putting up" with things if they like the addidtion. spinelss would be doing nothing about thing you are against, and as i stated not everyone is against whats happening.
eventually you will have to understand that because you feel its wrong not eveyone else does, and thoes that dont feel its wrong are not spineless but someone who likes things different then the way you do.
There are many people that stand up for things you dont believe in, things you feel wrong, immoral or unjustified. And that does not give you the right to call them spineless
The only hope for GW2 is that those who are in Beta are less spineless than those on these boards.
So people are spineless if they dont see things they way some of you do. They cant just actually like the way the system is. They cant be happy that they can buy cosmetics and account services with in game gold.
Really, cosmetic and account services ONLY?
thats not the point, i used what im gonna buy in the shop. no matter whats in the shop if someone actually likes it its there choice to stand up for it. If they sold weapons more powerfull then anything in the game I think it would be wrong but someone else who doesnt isnt spineless for saying so
It's very much EXACTLY the point.
Anet originally stated it would be limited to cosmetic and account services, but from what's been leaked this is very much not the cast.
They're a company out to make money, I get that. They will push the cash sho boundries as far as they can until gamers push back and draw the line in the sand as to what it generally found acceptable. Not speaking up against where you feel the line is and simply 'putting up' with things without saying a word is as RefMinor said, spineless.
Where your line is and where others are could be miles away. Someone isnt "putting up" with things if they like the addidtion. spinelss would be doing nothing about thing you are against, and as i stated not everyone is against whats happening.
eventually you will have to understand that because you feel its wrong not eveyone else does, and thoes that dont feel its wrong are not spineless but someone who likes things different then the way you do.
There are many people that stand up for things you dont believe in, things you feel wrong, immoral or unjustified. And that does not give you the right to call them spineless
Of course people's opinions differ, but if no one speaks up about where they feel where the line is and what they do and don't like, then how is Anet supposed to know how far they can push cash shops before pissing off a lot of potential customers?
I'm certain that Anet wants feedback from potential customers so they can come up with the most appropriate solution.
Yes it will eventually end up to where the Anet feels they can get the most money in the long run, but again, to do so they need feedback.
I can understand F2P titles. But the trend nowadays is to add a cash shop ON TOP of a box purchase, it seems. I think it's just wrong to ask us to pay "again" for a game that we already bought, but maybe thats just me.
About the "money VS time" argument... lol. You dont see people advocating steroids in the olympic games because they dont have time to train 10 hours a day. It amaze me how people can justify themselves by saying "its fine, I dont have time to play much, its fair!". (Oh, and what about someone that do have time AND money? )
Anyway. I really dont like where the trend is going. See D3 RMAH and GW2 cash shop. Next gen of MMO will be even worse than that. Sad.
I never have any problem with the idea of paying for advantages.
Usually i am on the other side playing for free. And if so, i think it is only fair for those who subsidize my gaming with some advantages. No problem at all.
Comments
That's how I felt when I saw people actually thought this would be an issue.
Sorry, but your feelings have no place in the spin zone that you've created. As such I strike you and everything you've written from the court of reasonable discussion.
Please come back when your mind is open.
I'm not trying to "sway people to look away from GW2." Not at all. I am trying to influence GW2's direction in the only small tiny way I can. By speaking out about it and making it clear that some gamers, me at least, have a line in the sand that cannot be crossed when it comes to microtransactions. Sure I'm only one person, but there are a lot of people like me and we can influence the games direction still. Anet is listening and have already removed some items. They are well aware of the firestorm of controversy the cash shop is having right now.
I've been on/off the GW2 bandwagon multiple times over the last few months. There are things I like and things I don't but I would I think eventually have decided to buy it if not for their recent cash shop direction. The items in the cash shop are far more egregious than they initially let on and it is very annoying.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
As someone who only wants to PvE and has nil interest in WvWvW, you can have all the advantage you want. If you get ahead of me in leveling or have more gold, I couldn't care less, I'll get there in my own time.
I will still use the cash shop if I enjoy the game, as is my way with all F2P/B2P titles, I have no issues with spending some money on a regular basis, that's what keeps the servers up, after all.
Trust me I understand where you are coming from, and I am sorry that I was yelling at you with my capitals. I just needed to get your viewpoint. I hate to break it to you though unless all items are soulbound even currency these games will never be fair. So I'll ask you this question like I did geeteefeeoh or however you spell it, you know who I am talking about, do you think ArenaNet should allow the players to run the servers? If they can't do it right then let us.
But we both know that ain't happenin' unfortunately. :'( So we have to make compromises, and even without the cash shop we still have to compromise with the currency and items that could theoretically still be sold for real currency out of game along with accounts. I can still remember the amount of spam that took place in Guild Wars so it is going to happen one way or the other. But they are compromising with more of the playerbase as a whole by not pressuring their players to pay a reoccuring fee. This is all under the assumption that the game requires more server power to keep it running. I won't be able to pay those things. I don't agree with them. So if the game had a reoccuring fee I wouldn't be the one missing out, it's the players in game who are because I could be helping them.
Op: you want an open and honest discussion yet set bounderies that only a handful of people can truly identify themselves with. That's not wanting an open and honest discussion. That's a narrow minded discussion.
First of like most of your peers you assume an item sold in Cash Shop A is seen as P2W, because it gives a clear advatantage, that a similar item in Cash Shop B is also P2W The thing is you then fail to view said item as it relates to the game. In one it might be an advantage while in the other it is not. Context is everything, without it all discussion is meaningless.
Furthermore the discussion really isn't that hard, but the wrong viewpoint is being used in my opinion. The current viewpoint most used is that another player has an advantage when using such an item. It's the whole grass is always greener thing that people are stuck in. The viewpoint should be: does him/her using such and such item detract from MY gaming experience.
Does it matter that another player got to the end of the road faster then you. At first glance you can say he has an advantage, but like people who have been powerleveled there is a good chance that he/she lacks knowledge about the class he is playing, because he skipped facets of the game that taught how to handle certain situations. Having to learn a class is a lot harder at the end then it is on the way.
Aside from that there is the question does it matter if a player is higher level then me however the way he got there. Be it playing more or using some other method. If it detracts from YOUR game experience, becuase he can steal resources or he can gank you or any other reason that ruins your experience, then it boosts are P2W in my book. If on the other hand it is meaningless if another player is higher level then it is not P2W. It's all about context.
Let's take an example from a Cash Shop that is not GW2 related. AoC sells lower rank PvP gear in their shop. Is that P2W? When 2 players both start PvPing at the same time one with bought armor and the other without then the player without will view it as P2W. If that same player who bought armor faces someone who has maxed PvP armor is it still P2W or is it a way to catch up on the gear grind. You will have arguments for both sides because it is personal. So again it boils down to: does such an item detract from my gaming experience.
How about this argument. I've only had experience with corrupt goverments so all goverments are corrupt from my perspective meaning your goverment is corrupt. From my point of view I'm correct because that is my experience, but I'm not looking at the context at all then. It might well be corrupt, but it might not be. Corrupt is subjective as well of course.
For the record I didn't vote because I don't share your extremely black and white without context viewpoints
Not going to Lie, read the OP and skim the rest of the thread...
When you are opening a discussion to a topic, and you set the topic definitions (as per your understanding or opinion of the topic), you are not inviting discussion of any sort. All you are doing is inviting people who agree with your definitions of what an advantage is.
There is no Rat-Race in GW2 to be the first level 80 on your server, or even the world, so gaining boosts - such as the ones you have described - are not much of an advantage.
If someone can play the game 5 hours, and I only have time to spend 4 hours in the game, the person who spent 5 hours in-game has an advantage over me. If we want things to be fair, lets just have opening hours for MMO's from 6PM - 12AM, and if you dont start playing at 6PM, I'm sorry but you were late, youre fired.
There is a line with cash shops, that developers need to be careful of, because if they cross it they may alienate their community, but I don't see Cosmetic or Convenience Items such as temporary XP boosts as being over that line.
"The problem with quotes from the Internet is that it's almost impossible to validate their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln
I find purchasing advantages totally game-defeating. I don't even bother with games like that. If I buy better gear I'll just feel less good if I win (Did I win because I'm a good player or just because I have better stats?) and I'll feel worse if I loose (jeez, if i couldn't win with uber gear than I'm pretty bad...)
(Btw, his argument goes for PvE as well. Just substitute "win" with "complete that difficult dungeon which gives you prestige with other players")
So, by "paying to win" you actually pay to enjoy the game less. That's the way I see it. I'll happily cough up the dough for cosmetic items, subs, merchandise, whatever, if I enjoy the game, but I'll never pay for advantages because it is self-defeating. I'd be paying money to actually enjoy the game less.
It's irrelevant if arena net sell you gold directly or indirectly. All those pay 2 win games dont' sell gold directly. But everyone hate it. Because gold have meaning in those game.
I can use gold to buy many things in those game. Godly gear, skill boost upgrade, wings to boost upgrade, material to level up crafting, exp boost.
My point is I dont' know why you keep stressing arena net isn't selling you gold direcly. All those pay 2 win games that sell diamonds, stones, rubies, gems didn't sell me gold directly too.
The only thing that matter is if the gold or gem is even relevant. And hopely in GW2, gold or gem isn't important at all. If you really want to defend GW2 that much what you should stress is gold and gem isn't even important.
Quite honestly I can't even think of a mmorpg that sell gold directly. To my very limited mmorpg knowledge I think a few of them sell rubies, diamonds, stones. And people hate it.
Good points, WayneJr2.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I play MMOs to relax and get my mind off of the real world.
When there's a non-cosmetic cash shop in a game that offers any sort of advantage or boost, I find myself constantly running cost benefit analysis in my head as to whether I should spend a few bucks to same myself some time... which kills my immersion and enjoyment of the game.
This is even before considering what advantages player do or do not have from a cash shop.
I'm certain there are at least a few... hopefully their efforts aren't in vain.
So people are spineless if they dont see things they way some of you do. They cant just actually like the way the system is. They cant be happy that they can buy cosmetics and account services with in game gold.
So people are spineless if they dont see things they way some of you do. They cant just actually like the way the system is. They cant be happy that they can buy cosmetics and account services with in game gold.
Really, cosmetic and account services ONLY?thats not the point, i used what im gonna buy in the shop. no matter whats in the shop if someone actually likes it its there choice to stand up for it. If they sold weapons more powerfull then anything in the game I think it would be wrong but someone else who doesnt isnt spineless for saying so
It's very much EXACTLY the point.
Anet originally stated it would be limited to cosmetic and account services, but from what's been leaked this is very much not the cast.
They're a company out to make money, I get that. They will push the cash sho boundries as far as they can until gamers push back and draw the line in the sand as to what it generally found acceptable. Not speaking up against where you feel the line is and simply 'putting up' with things without saying a word is as RefMinor said, spineless.
Unless most armor has equal stats max level.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Starting a thread off using a line from Fox News is the worst way to start off a thread...following it up with what is basically you stating that you dont want to hear anyone that disagrees with you basically proves that anything you will be saying is worthless talking points that wont stand up to counterpoints.
Congrats.
GW2 should be a great game since its going to keep certain types of gamers away, the epeen waving gamers that are elite only in their own minds.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
I have 2 good gaming friends I've gamed with for over 15 years........thru MANY games.
We start a new game and, let's say we get to level 5 in our first session. I log in the next day, and they are both level 10 to my still level 5! Gadzooks! How can this be?
Ahhhh, now i see how! No, not any cash shop or tricks......they logged back in and played again! How UNFAIR is THAT! I had to go to work and spend some family time and they took UNFAIR advantage and played more!
This was/is a most interesting thread.......cut the cake anyway you wish, a few simple facts should be self evident.
A game must be profitable to stay alive. We cannot begrudge a company wanting to make money and for continuing to develop it's games, now can we?
AND.........MONEY and TIME are both forms of currency! Simple as that.
I say if you do not want to allow a person to use a cash shop......then limit everyones play time to 90 minures a day.......that's my normal in game time, so why should YOU get ANY advantage over me?
Yes......a silly solution. But to a VERY hot and heavily debated topic. There is no easy answer, save allowing our pocketbooks to speak for us.........perhaps if someone could devise a cash shop that somehow was more beneficial to those of us with limited time, it would be fairer.......
I do chuckle at the folks that protest the cash shops, yet feel that they get to play 75 hours a week to my 10 is NOT an unfair advantage.
Where your line is and where others are could be miles away. Someone isnt "putting up" with things if they like the addidtion. spinelss would be doing nothing about thing you are against, and as i stated not everyone is against whats happening.
eventually you will have to understand that because you feel its wrong not eveyone else does, and thoes that dont feel its wrong are not spineless but someone who likes things different then the way you do.
There are many people that stand up for things you dont believe in, things you feel wrong, immoral or unjustified. And that does not give you the right to call them spineless
Of course people's opinions differ, but if no one speaks up about where they feel where the line is and what they do and don't like, then how is Anet supposed to know how far they can push cash shops before pissing off a lot of potential customers?
I'm certain that Anet wants feedback from potential customers so they can come up with the most appropriate solution.
Yes it will eventually end up to where the Anet feels they can get the most money in the long run, but again, to do so they need feedback.
I personally dont like cash shops.
I can understand F2P titles. But the trend nowadays is to add a cash shop ON TOP of a box purchase, it seems. I think it's just wrong to ask us to pay "again" for a game that we already bought, but maybe thats just me.
About the "money VS time" argument... lol. You dont see people advocating steroids in the olympic games because they dont have time to train 10 hours a day. It amaze me how people can justify themselves by saying "its fine, I dont have time to play much, its fair!". (Oh, and what about someone that do have time AND money? )
Anyway. I really dont like where the trend is going. See D3 RMAH and GW2 cash shop. Next gen of MMO will be even worse than that. Sad.
I never have any problem with the idea of paying for advantages.
Usually i am on the other side playing for free. And if so, i think it is only fair for those who subsidize my gaming with some advantages. No problem at all.