without RMT, if you have an advantage it's because you played more, not because you paid more.
Making an advantage is not the same as buying one.
Ah, are we forgetting our history?
Hourly-rate games (the last was disappearing from the market right around the time UO was opening), paying more and playing more amounted >directly< to the same thing.
Subsciption-based games, the link between them became harder to see, but still existed to a degree--the guy who could afford to maintain a sub got the most practice; the guy who could afford multiple subs got his buffbots; the guy who could invest in multiple games got the most variety of experience.
The guy who could afford gold from illicit sources got the gear too.
Spending unequal money or unequal leisure time, generally rarely commented on, unless one of our overseas friends was involved.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
In every MMORPG I've ever played, regardless when I started, at the game's launch or 3 years in, there have always been players who have held an advantage over me because they either started earlier, played more often, had better hand eye coordination, better smarts, cheated with hacks, or sometimes were just plain luckier than I.
Point is, it's never been totally fair and balanced, and cash shop advantages are just one more to the list of imbalances I'll have to deal with in a MMORPG.
I've learned to accept that when playing MMORPG's there will always be folks who have advantages over me, and I just try to carve out my fun regardless.
It's not about balance between different skill sets, disabilities, etc., but about balance in the application of the game rules to all players rather than favoring those who pay for perks. As I said, there are too many externalities that are out of the control of developers for it to be possible for them to create a balanced experience between each and every player. Even limiting the amount of time someone can play won't help, because there may be some people that only have five minutes a day to play, or that have some terrible disability that no amount of limitation would ever bring balance to.
The idea is not to handicap everyone else, but rather to apply the game rules to everyone equally. No special treatment just because you paid the developers $5.
In every MMORPG I've ever played, regardless when I started, at the game's launch or 3 years in, there have always been players who have held an advantage over me because they either started earlier, played more often, had better hand eye coordination, better smarts, cheated with hacks, or sometimes were just plain luckier than I.
Point is, it's never been totally fair and balanced, and cash shop advantages are just one more to the list of imbalances I'll have to deal with in a MMORPG.
I've learned to accept that when playing MMORPG's there will always be folks who have advantages over me, and I just try to carve out my fun regardless.
It's not about balance between different skill sets, disabilities, etc., but about balance in the application of the game rules to all players rather than favoring those who pay for perks. As I said, there are too many externalities that are out of the control of developers for it to be possible for them to create a balanced experience between each and every player. Even limiting the amount of time someone can play won't help, because there may be some people that only have five minutes a day to play, or that have some terrible disability that no amount of limitation would ever bring balance to.
The idea is not to handicap everyone else, but rather to apply the game rules to everyone equally. No special treatment just because you paid the developers $5.
No, it's about all advantages. If time can be one, then paying money is another. STOP THINKING OF DISABILITIES, WHEN I SAID IT, I MEANT SOME PEOPLE CAN TWITCH BETTER THAN OTHERS. YOU UNDERSTAND THAT PHYISICAL ABILITIES IT NOT JUST ABOUT DISABILITIES? iF YOU DO, THEN YOU KNOWING ARE DISTORTING THE CASE BY BRINGING UP DISABILITIES.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
If we truely want to be honest, we need to admit all gamers look for different things in mmo's. The implication of this thread is that we should not have RMT's of any form.
And I say, we as gamers should have a variety of games of all styles and payment plans so something out there meets our individual needs. We should not have a moral imperative that all mmo's must fit our personal opinions and lifestyles.
I'm glad there is diversity in games. And like it or not, we need to be honest, we all want something different:
No special treatment just because you paid the developers $5.
As far as I know, that situation has never existed.
Buying a second account has always carried some inherent advantages that developers are loathe to pass up.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Than are you suggesting that no mmo ever should have an RMT? That the only advantage one can have would be the advantage of time they create for themselves?
So I should abandon my wife, child, job social and financial obligations to create 'time' for video games?
Surely not.
So, maybe you should get comfortable with the fact that different games are made for different demographics.
Some are made for those with 'time'. Some are made for those who don't have much time. Some are made for both, where you can gain advantage through time OR money.
In my opinion, you should be happy that there are more numerous varieties of games out there than ever before.
But if you are suggesting that all mmo's forever more should be made to cater only to those with what you deem the right amount of 'time', than I say,
I'm glad the free market doesn't work that way.
There are many many pay2win cash shop games out there, so its not like you need to fight for yet another one. In fact, your viewpoint has basically won out as all MMOs are going pay2win to some degree these days it seems. But I view it simply in terms of gaming ethics. I'm sure you think it silly, but high skill and hard work I respect. Paying money for advantage I don't. And hence, any game that allows for paid advantage I don't trust or respect and I won't play that game.
You complain of the hippie with more time, well why not complain about the teenager with more twitch skill in an FPSer?. Should an FPS game limit the controller sensitivity so highly skilled players are pushed down to your level?
For instance I hold my own in FPS games, especially for an older gamer. I'm always well over 1.0 k/d. But my son sets his controller to "insane" sensitivity which I could never do, and his twitch skill is just plain superior. But I don't begrudge him that and pay the game company to slow his controller down to my setting (merely "high").
That just seems against gaming ethics to do that.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Many people opposed to time items in cash shops are sandboxers. In a game which is world pvp or PvE RTS or any form of dynamic play being able to buy things can't possibly be fair.
In a themepark I really don't give a fuck if you hit the level cap 4x as fast as me because you dropped 100$. But in a game where players actions affect every other player time purchasing is a huge no no.
Even more so with non capped progression.
Now some might say, well why is it fair if one person spends a lot of time?
The reason is that rich people have everything in the real world. Cars, women(although obviously you can do this without money too) boats, planes, servants, epic food, awesome health care. Sorry if I wanted one place where some kid whose daddy is a millionaire can't have better stuff than me.
Some people say they shouldn't be punished for having a family. Well I shouldn't be punished because you decided to have a family either.
But in the end we only have one possible answer. If you want to pay, play a game where you can pay. I will lay one where you can't. We will both be happy.
Wow this is ridiculous. The way GW2 is doing this, no money is being created in game (all the gold had to be obtained by players), and it deters gold sellers (if they wanted to compete they would have to beat the going rate of gems). There is no advantage anywhere.
Are you 100% clear on the part where arenanet is not selling players gold directly? They are selling them small perks and cosmetic details that these players can then give to others. If you do not fully grasp how well this system works you need to take a long hard look at eve. The people that would have all the money in the game will still have all the money, they just have the option to get extra perks for some of it. People that are lagging behind in time to play or are interested in dealing with the unique market are addressed as well. It promotes trade and gives the developers a little extra money. It is a win all around scenario, which is why it works so well in eve.
I am concerned that you are having difficulty grasping the aspect where players are not purchasing gold. They have no guarantee of selling the gems to other players. Other players decide how much they are willing to pay for them. On top of that, since no gold is being created, no advantage is being created. If you are really so concerned about gold (which makes no sense at all with how GW2 is set up), then you need to realize that the "advantage" as you see it is simply transferring from one player that isn't you to another player that isn't you. You are completely unaffected.
Originally posted by Icewhite Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh without RMT, if you have an advantage it's because you played more, not because you paid more. Making an advantage is not the same as buying one.
Ah, are we forgetting our history? Hourly-rate games (the last was disappearing from the market right around the time UO was opening), paying more and playing more amounted >directly< to the same thing. Subsciption-based games, the link between them became harder to see, but still existed to a degree--the guy who could afford to maintain a sub got the most practice; the guy who could afford multiple subs got his buffbots; the guy who could invest in multiple games got the most variety of experience. The guy who could afford gold from illicit sources got the gear too. Spending unequal money or unequal leisure time, generally rarely commented on, unless one of our overseas friends was involved.
yes, because I have the opportunity to pay more than you.
Wow this is ridiculous. The way GW2 is doing this, no money is being created in game (all the gold had to be obtained by players), and it deters gold sellers (if they wanted to compete they would have to beat the going rate of gems). There is no advantage anywhere.
Are you 100% clear on the part where arenanet is not selling players gold directly? They are selling them small perks and cosmetic details that these players can then give to others. If you do not fully grasp how well this system works you need to take a long hard look at eve. The people that would have all the money in the game will still have all the money, they just have the option to get extra perks for some of it. People that are lagging behind in time to play or are interested in dealing with the unique market are addressed as well. It promotes trade and gives the developers a little extra money. It is a win all around scenario, which is why it works so well in eve.
I am concerned that you are having difficulty grasping the aspect where players are not purchasing gold. They have no guarantee of selling the gems to other players. Other players decide how much they are willing to pay for them. On top of that, since no gold is being created, no advantage is being created. If you are really so concerned about gold (which makes no sense at all with how GW2 is set up), then you need to realize that the "advantage" as you see it is simply transferring from one player that isn't you to another player that isn't you. You are completely unaffected.
I love how the defense of the GW2 cash shop changes every day as the scope of it expands more and more. So now it is ok simply because you buy gems to get gold rather than simply buying gold. It is still pay2win.
The reason EVE implemented it in a similar way was because of the deep and complex economy of that game which would have been destroyed by a pure money to ISK transaction. It is still a form of pay2win in EVE and few will say otherwise. It is just an acceptable form of pay2win because the veterans of EVE can profit from it so they don't mind noobs buying better ships and fittings than what they have earned in game. They are also comfortable in knowing you cannot buy skill points with ISK.
Comparing a theme park like GW2 to a sandbox like EVE is just plain silly anyway. Themeparks don't have meaningful economies usually so this charade of buying gems instead of gold directly is just a ruse.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
If you think eve players find plex to be pay2win you are shockingly misinformed.
And once again for clarity: THE POINT OF BUYING GEMS RATHER THAN GOLD MEANS NO GOLD IS CREATED. It means that there is no sudden advantage gained! That gold came from another player who was willing to part with it! If you are ignorant enough of GW2 that you think gold is going to give you some huge advantage, then think of this as somebody that had an advantage over you giving his advantage away to somebody else! Either way it doesn't affect you in the slightest! Since no gold is entering the economy, prices are unaffected!
In every MMORPG I've ever played, regardless when I started, at the game's launch or 3 years in, there have always been players who have held an advantage over me because they either started earlier, played more often, had better hand eye coordination, better smarts, cheated with hacks, or sometimes were just plain luckier than I.
Point is, it's never been totally fair and balanced, and cash shop advantages are just one more to the list of imbalances I'll have to deal with in a MMORPG.
I've learned to accept that when playing MMORPG's there will always be folks who have advantages over me, and I just try to carve out my fun regardless.
I've yet to play a game where someone didn't have some kind of advantage over me. I don't think I ever will. More importantly, I don't care.
If you think eve players find plex to be pay2win you are shockingly misinformed.
And once again for clarity: THE POINT OF BUYING GEMS RATHER THAN GOLD MEANS NO GOLD IS CREATED. It means that there is no sudden advantage gained! That gold came from another player who was willing to part with it! If you are ignorant enough of GW2 that you think gold is going to give you some huge advantage, then think of this as somebody that had an advantage over you giving his advantage away to somebody else! Either way it doesn't affect you in the slightest! Since no gold is entering the economy, prices are unaffected!
EVE players don't care if it is a form of pay2win, that is different than saying it isn't a form of pay2win. Having ISK is an advantage in EVE so buying it with real life money helps you. EVE vets just don't give a crap about it so all are happy.
And what you are saying is simply an in-game economy effect, it has nothing to do with whether a player has purchased an advantage with real life money or not. You don't need to try to explain it, we all get it. Implementing it this way is better for the in-game economy, but it doesn't change the fact that you can buy an advantage for yourself with real life money.
And back to EVE again. You do realize you can actually legally buy a veteran character with real life money using that same PLEX system. You can buy a 7-year veteran character if you are willing to spend around $750 or so I think was the going rate for a very veteran character last I saw. But according to you, that is not pay2win simply because the veteran that sold the character made money off it? Twisted logic...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
No, as an eve player myself, who is in a large alliance, I have yet to meet anybody that finds plex to be an ingame advantage. Most if not all of the people I know love it because as they get better at the game they keep using isk to buy plex. In gw2 right now there is nothing at all that costs an absurd amount of money that forces people to buy gems and sell them. Since that is the case I assumed you somehow thought there was an economic advantage. Since you acknowledge the economy is unaffected we can all rest easy knowing that this kind of transaction benefits all involved.
Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh without RMT, if you have an advantage it's because you played more, not because you paid more. Making an advantage is not the same as buying one.
Isn't getting a job which will make enough money so you can buy RMT items making your own advantage? I'm never going to be in a position where I can make 'time' to have an advantage in an mmo ever again. I have a wife, child, social and financial obligations well beyond anything that would allow me the time I had in '99-2004. Just ain't gonna happen. You can't be suggesting that I should abandon my other responsibilities to create 'time' for video games. You can't be suggesting that 'mmo's can never be for your demographic'. You can't be suggesting that I don't have a perfect right to spend my money how I choose. What you SHOULD be suggesting is that there should be some games available where time is the only advantage you can make for yourself. And guess what there are. So play them. And be glad my demographic has games suitable for my lifestyle. So I'll play those. Why would you want to shut down a system that others enjoy, just because you don't? I know it stinks that all mmos aren't made to specially cater to your needs, but there are millions of gamers out there with a different schedule than yours.
So let me get this straight. You pay 15 bucks I pay 15 bucks you get 1 month (AT time of purchase) I get 1 month (At time of purchase)
You take your family to Disneyland for two weeks while I raid and get gear but I paid to win because of a choice you made?....No, because you had the exact same opportunity as me to raid. Probably wouldn't be good for your marriage, but you could tell your family that you have chosen to earn epics instead of vacation. It's your choice to do it or not to do it. Weather you get those epics at this point has nothing to do with any money either of us spent that the other didn't
You can't make your decisions about how you chose to play your game my responsibility by telling me I paid to win because I have more after we both got the same portion for the same price.
Besides, I know plenty of people that spend tremendous amounts of time in a game and don't have all epics. They mostly have fun just running around doing whatever on a whim..don't have a lot to show for it, but they are always online.
Or what about the person who spends hours on the internet reading on their class. He has power. over someone who doesn't I mean where does it stop?
No, as an eve player myself, who is in a large alliance, I have yet to meet anybody that finds plex to be an ingame advantage. Most if not all of the people I know love it because as they get better at the game they keep using isk to buy plex. In gw2 right now there is nothing at all that costs an absurd amount of money that forces people to buy gems and sell them. Since that is the case I assumed you somehow thought there was an economic advantage. Since you acknowledge the economy is unaffected we can all rest easy knowing that this kind of transaction benefits all involved.
Yeah and I was an EVE player myself and veterans like it because they are selling the noobs their ISK for the plex and funding their own accounts. Veterans KNOW it is a form of pay2win but they themselves profit off it so they love it. Win-win. Similarly, many veterans sell characters they trained for big bucks as well. Again, they love this because they make money. But they know buying a 7-year veteran character is a form of pay2win, but they are the ones getting payed so they love it.
You are confusing whether they like it versus what they think it is.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Originally posted by Baitness No, as an eve player myself, who is in a large alliance, I have yet to meet anybody that finds plex to be an ingame advantage. Most if not all of the people I know love it because as they get better at the game they keep using isk to buy plex. In gw2 right now there is nothing at all that costs an absurd amount of money that forces people to buy gems and sell them. Since that is the case I assumed you somehow thought there was an economic advantage. Since you acknowledge the economy is unaffected we can all rest easy knowing that this kind of transaction benefits all involved.
Oh here we go with the GW2 is like EVE. I can guarantee you. If GW2 were REALLY like EVE, you'd go bat sh!7 nutz. Couldn't handle it. Come On, you know that EVE has the largest currency sinks ever built into an MMO. You'd never keep up in GW2.
Are you 100% clear on the part where arenanet is not selling players gold directly?
I am concerned that you are having difficulty grasping the aspect where players are not purchasing gold. They have no guarantee of selling the gems to other players. Other players decide how much they are willing to pay for them. On top of that, since no gold is being created, no advantage is being created. If you are really so concerned about gold (which makes no sense at all with how GW2 is set up), then you need to realize that the "advantage" as you see it is simply transferring from one player that isn't you to another player that isn't you. You are completely unaffected.
So you buy gem with real cash, and sell that for in game gold to other players. That is not buying gold? Get a reality check.
That being said the main thing is how much the gem and gold matters. If gold and gem isn't important anyway, it's not a big deal like you said.
But honestly reading through the examples, most of those are fair play.
Keys in TF2 don't unlock vertical upgrades. That is: no matter how many chests you unlock in TF2, nothing you get from those chests makes you more powerful than a very skilled player using the default gear.
Similarly, no amount of IP boosts in LoL changes the fact that a skilled player is going to demolish you.
"Statistical edge" is the only example provided of genuinely unfair gaming.
Again, keys in TF2 are the only way to unlock chests. It's a probability edge in the sense that you have 0% chance of getting what's in those crates unless you pay. But again: the upgrades are lateral unlocks and cosmetic items, so it doesn't matter.
Personally I find any lateral unlock to be acceptable, especially when those lateral items (content, weapons, whatever) are available without paying (as nearly everything is in LoL, Tribes, or TF2.)
MMORPGs like EQ2 and LOTRO are extremely close to the ideal (the ideal displayed by LoL, Tribes, and TF2.) They offer a few sort of dubious items which prevent me from using them as an example in most F2P threads, but they're pretty dang close to what F2P should be.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
If you think eve players find plex to be pay2win you are shockingly misinformed.
And once again for clarity: THE POINT OF BUYING GEMS RATHER THAN GOLD MEANS NO GOLD IS CREATED. It means that there is no sudden advantage gained! That gold came from another player who was willing to part with it! If you are ignorant enough of GW2 that you think gold is going to give you some huge advantage, then think of this as somebody that had an advantage over you giving his advantage away to somebody else! Either way it doesn't affect you in the slightest! Since no gold is entering the economy, prices are unaffected!
EVE players don't care if it is a form of pay2win, that is different than saying it isn't a form of pay2win. Having ISK is an advantage in EVE so buying it with real life money helps you. EVE vets just don't give a crap about it so all are happy.
And what you are saying is simply an in-game economy effect, it has nothing to do with whether a player has purchased an advantage with real life money or not. You don't need to try to explain it, we all get it. Implementing it this way is better for the in-game economy, but it doesn't change the fact that you can buy an advantage for yourself with real life money.
And back to EVE again. You do realize you can actually legally buy a veteran character with real life money using that same PLEX system. You can buy a 7-year veteran character if you are willing to spend around $750 or so I think was the going rate for a very veteran character last I saw. But according to you, that is not pay2win simply because the veteran that sold the character made money off it? Twisted logic...
Where are you going with this gainesvilleg? Even if the cash shop didn't exist the game could still be exploited because the currency at play isn't soulbound, and everyone could just share their account over a vpn line or trade/sell their account. Then we also could bring up multiboxing, and many other ways to manipulate these types of games.
In the instance of WoW you can still buy and sell gold maybe not through the game since that would be a huge red flag, but you could easily sell it out of game with no trace of what you are doing unless Blizzard is playing the dirty undercover trying to catch you in which case they would just lose a player they might not get back so it would be in their best interest not to pull this sort of sting operation. No there is no way they will find out unless they are monitoring everybody through some sort of chip in our brains, and yes you made me go here just to show you it isn't possible to deter gold selling. And to ultimately show you that they simply don't care because it keeps players subscribing. So where do you draw the line? Why are you even posting on MMORPG.com? You have this sort of persona that you are letting off with each and every post I come across that keeps leading me to believe you aren't even an MMORPG player.
In those examples you would be CHEATING. It would be bannable and against the rules. I guess since people also glitch, hack, and mod a game Anet should just endorse that as well? I guess it doesn't concern you at all that this form of gold selling that Anet now endorses could get you a lifetime account ban in some games?
I'm sorry but that argument is just a poor line of thinking. People justify doing all sorts of bad things because, hey, if you can't beat em join em. Why not just cheat on your taxes, steal from your companies office supplies, mod your multiplayer PVP game, research glitches, buy gold, etc. Everybody's doing it...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
I can't believe the complete lack of understanding of simple economics. There is no new money in the game. It does not affect you. One player previously had those funds to purchase with, now a different one does. There is nothing right now in game you can use that money on that can give you an advantage except for very very very very incredibly affordable items that are only of debatable advantage (siege stuff). There is no super skill you can only purchase with gold, no armor set that is better than all the rest, no advantage to be gained.
The reason it is key that arena net is not selling gold directly is that would cause inflation of gold prices, causing a scenario where only the people that purchased gold would be able to keep up. In this situation, that is completely avoided. It is a wonderful way to step around the problem which is why you do not hear complaints about it in eve - sidenote - if you think ships in eve are massively expensive, then you are flying above what you should be with your current skills - you're doing it wrong. In this situation where not only is there nothing to purchase to get an advantage with that money, but also prices are not inflated, you are completely in every way unaffected by this - EXCEPT that you now have the ability to either spend real money or in game money to get a new outfit that doesn't affect your stats.
I can't believe the complete lack of understanding of simple economics. There is no new money in the game. It does not affect you. One player previously had those funds to purchase with, now a different one does. There is nothing right now in game you can use that money on that can give you an advantage except for very very very very incredibly affordable items that are only of debatable advantage (siege stuff). There is no super skill you can only purchase with gold, no armor set that is better than all the rest, no advantage to be gained.
The reason it is key that arena net is not selling gold directly is that would cause inflation of gold prices, causing a scenario where only the people that purchased gold would be able to keep up. In this situation, that is completely avoided. It is a wonderful way to step around the problem which is why you do not hear complaints about it in eve - sidenote - if you think ships in eve are massively expensive, then you are flying above what you should be with your current skills - you're doing it wrong. In this situation where not only is there nothing to purchase to get an advantage with that money, but also prices are not inflated, you are completely in every way unaffected by this - EXCEPT that you now have the ability to either spend real money or in game money to get a new outfit that doesn't affect your stats.
LOL we all get it. You are just repeating yourself.
This method of pay2win is much better for the in-game economy, if that is important. It is still pay2win though.
But you can keep repeating how no gold is created and pretend that the player who gave Anet money for gems did not get any advantage for it. Maybe they should have made the transation $$$->gems->pearls->gold and made it even less pay2win LOL.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Instead of me repeating my rather clear argument hoping you will understand it, I would love for you to tell me all the advantages you are going to get.
Instead of me repeating my rather clear argument hoping you will understand it, I would love for you to tell me all the advantages you are going to get.
OMG
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Comments
Ah, are we forgetting our history?
Hourly-rate games (the last was disappearing from the market right around the time UO was opening), paying more and playing more amounted >directly< to the same thing.
Subsciption-based games, the link between them became harder to see, but still existed to a degree--the guy who could afford to maintain a sub got the most practice; the guy who could afford multiple subs got his buffbots; the guy who could invest in multiple games got the most variety of experience.
The guy who could afford gold from illicit sources got the gear too.
Spending unequal money or unequal leisure time, generally rarely commented on, unless one of our overseas friends was involved.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
It's not about balance between different skill sets, disabilities, etc., but about balance in the application of the game rules to all players rather than favoring those who pay for perks. As I said, there are too many externalities that are out of the control of developers for it to be possible for them to create a balanced experience between each and every player. Even limiting the amount of time someone can play won't help, because there may be some people that only have five minutes a day to play, or that have some terrible disability that no amount of limitation would ever bring balance to.
The idea is not to handicap everyone else, but rather to apply the game rules to everyone equally. No special treatment just because you paid the developers $5.
No, it's about all advantages. If time can be one, then paying money is another. STOP THINKING OF DISABILITIES, WHEN I SAID IT, I MEANT SOME PEOPLE CAN TWITCH BETTER THAN OTHERS. YOU UNDERSTAND THAT PHYISICAL ABILITIES IT NOT JUST ABOUT DISABILITIES? iF YOU DO, THEN YOU KNOWING ARE DISTORTING THE CASE BY BRINGING UP DISABILITIES.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
If we truely want to be honest, we need to admit all gamers look for different things in mmo's. The implication of this thread is that we should not have RMT's of any form.
And I say, we as gamers should have a variety of games of all styles and payment plans so something out there meets our individual needs. We should not have a moral imperative that all mmo's must fit our personal opinions and lifestyles.
I'm glad there is diversity in games. And like it or not, we need to be honest, we all want something different:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/345477/page/1
As far as I know, that situation has never existed.
Buying a second account has always carried some inherent advantages that developers are loathe to pass up.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
There are many many pay2win cash shop games out there, so its not like you need to fight for yet another one. In fact, your viewpoint has basically won out as all MMOs are going pay2win to some degree these days it seems. But I view it simply in terms of gaming ethics. I'm sure you think it silly, but high skill and hard work I respect. Paying money for advantage I don't. And hence, any game that allows for paid advantage I don't trust or respect and I won't play that game.
You complain of the hippie with more time, well why not complain about the teenager with more twitch skill in an FPSer?. Should an FPS game limit the controller sensitivity so highly skilled players are pushed down to your level?
For instance I hold my own in FPS games, especially for an older gamer. I'm always well over 1.0 k/d. But my son sets his controller to "insane" sensitivity which I could never do, and his twitch skill is just plain superior. But I don't begrudge him that and pay the game company to slow his controller down to my setting (merely "high").
That just seems against gaming ethics to do that.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Many people opposed to time items in cash shops are sandboxers. In a game which is world pvp or PvE RTS or any form of dynamic play being able to buy things can't possibly be fair.
In a themepark I really don't give a fuck if you hit the level cap 4x as fast as me because you dropped 100$. But in a game where players actions affect every other player time purchasing is a huge no no.
Even more so with non capped progression.
Now some might say, well why is it fair if one person spends a lot of time?
The reason is that rich people have everything in the real world. Cars, women(although obviously you can do this without money too) boats, planes, servants, epic food, awesome health care. Sorry if I wanted one place where some kid whose daddy is a millionaire can't have better stuff than me.
Some people say they shouldn't be punished for having a family. Well I shouldn't be punished because you decided to have a family either.
But in the end we only have one possible answer. If you want to pay, play a game where you can pay. I will lay one where you can't. We will both be happy.
Wow this is ridiculous. The way GW2 is doing this, no money is being created in game (all the gold had to be obtained by players), and it deters gold sellers (if they wanted to compete they would have to beat the going rate of gems). There is no advantage anywhere.
Are you 100% clear on the part where arenanet is not selling players gold directly? They are selling them small perks and cosmetic details that these players can then give to others. If you do not fully grasp how well this system works you need to take a long hard look at eve. The people that would have all the money in the game will still have all the money, they just have the option to get extra perks for some of it. People that are lagging behind in time to play or are interested in dealing with the unique market are addressed as well. It promotes trade and gives the developers a little extra money. It is a win all around scenario, which is why it works so well in eve.
I am concerned that you are having difficulty grasping the aspect where players are not purchasing gold. They have no guarantee of selling the gems to other players. Other players decide how much they are willing to pay for them. On top of that, since no gold is being created, no advantage is being created. If you are really so concerned about gold (which makes no sense at all with how GW2 is set up), then you need to realize that the "advantage" as you see it is simply transferring from one player that isn't you to another player that isn't you. You are completely unaffected.
Hourly-rate games (the last was disappearing from the market right around the time UO was opening), paying more and playing more amounted >directly< to the same thing.
Subsciption-based games, the link between them became harder to see, but still existed to a degree--the guy who could afford to maintain a sub got the most practice; the guy who could afford multiple subs got his buffbots; the guy who could invest in multiple games got the most variety of experience.
The guy who could afford gold from illicit sources got the gear too.
Spending unequal money or unequal leisure time, generally rarely commented on, unless one of our overseas friends was involved.
yes, because I have the opportunity to pay more than you.
I love how the defense of the GW2 cash shop changes every day as the scope of it expands more and more. So now it is ok simply because you buy gems to get gold rather than simply buying gold. It is still pay2win.
The reason EVE implemented it in a similar way was because of the deep and complex economy of that game which would have been destroyed by a pure money to ISK transaction. It is still a form of pay2win in EVE and few will say otherwise. It is just an acceptable form of pay2win because the veterans of EVE can profit from it so they don't mind noobs buying better ships and fittings than what they have earned in game. They are also comfortable in knowing you cannot buy skill points with ISK.
Comparing a theme park like GW2 to a sandbox like EVE is just plain silly anyway. Themeparks don't have meaningful economies usually so this charade of buying gems instead of gold directly is just a ruse.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
If you think eve players find plex to be pay2win you are shockingly misinformed.
And once again for clarity: THE POINT OF BUYING GEMS RATHER THAN GOLD MEANS NO GOLD IS CREATED. It means that there is no sudden advantage gained! That gold came from another player who was willing to part with it! If you are ignorant enough of GW2 that you think gold is going to give you some huge advantage, then think of this as somebody that had an advantage over you giving his advantage away to somebody else! Either way it doesn't affect you in the slightest! Since no gold is entering the economy, prices are unaffected!
I've yet to play a game where someone didn't have some kind of advantage over me. I don't think I ever will. More importantly, I don't care.
EVE players don't care if it is a form of pay2win, that is different than saying it isn't a form of pay2win. Having ISK is an advantage in EVE so buying it with real life money helps you. EVE vets just don't give a crap about it so all are happy.
And what you are saying is simply an in-game economy effect, it has nothing to do with whether a player has purchased an advantage with real life money or not. You don't need to try to explain it, we all get it. Implementing it this way is better for the in-game economy, but it doesn't change the fact that you can buy an advantage for yourself with real life money.
And back to EVE again. You do realize you can actually legally buy a veteran character with real life money using that same PLEX system. You can buy a 7-year veteran character if you are willing to spend around $750 or so I think was the going rate for a very veteran character last I saw. But according to you, that is not pay2win simply because the veteran that sold the character made money off it? Twisted logic...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
No, as an eve player myself, who is in a large alliance, I have yet to meet anybody that finds plex to be an ingame advantage. Most if not all of the people I know love it because as they get better at the game they keep using isk to buy plex. In gw2 right now there is nothing at all that costs an absurd amount of money that forces people to buy gems and sell them. Since that is the case I assumed you somehow thought there was an economic advantage. Since you acknowledge the economy is unaffected we can all rest easy knowing that this kind of transaction benefits all involved.
So let me get this straight.
You pay 15 bucks
I pay 15 bucks
you get 1 month (AT time of purchase)
I get 1 month (At time of purchase)
You take your family to Disneyland for two weeks while I raid and get gear but I paid to win because of a choice you made?....No, because you had the exact same opportunity as me to raid. Probably wouldn't be good for your marriage, but you could tell your family that you have chosen to earn epics instead of vacation. It's your choice to do it or not to do it. Weather you get those epics at this point has nothing to do with any money either of us spent that the other didn't
You can't make your decisions about how you chose to play your game my responsibility by telling me I paid to win because I have more after we both got the same portion for the same price.
Besides, I know plenty of people that spend tremendous amounts of time in a game and don't have all epics. They mostly have fun just running around doing whatever on a whim..don't have a lot to show for it, but they are always online.
Or what about the person who spends hours on the internet reading on their class. He has power. over someone who doesn't I mean where does it stop?
Yeah and I was an EVE player myself and veterans like it because they are selling the noobs their ISK for the plex and funding their own accounts. Veterans KNOW it is a form of pay2win but they themselves profit off it so they love it. Win-win. Similarly, many veterans sell characters they trained for big bucks as well. Again, they love this because they make money. But they know buying a 7-year veteran character is a form of pay2win, but they are the ones getting payed so they love it.
You are confusing whether they like it versus what they think it is.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Oh here we go with the GW2 is like EVE.
I can guarantee you. If GW2 were REALLY like EVE, you'd go bat sh!7 nutz. Couldn't handle it.
Come On, you know that EVE has the largest currency sinks ever built into an MMO. You'd never keep up in GW2.
So you buy gem with real cash, and sell that for in game gold to other players. That is not buying gold? Get a reality check.
That being said the main thing is how much the gem and gold matters. If gold and gem isn't important anyway, it's not a big deal like you said.
Cash shops don't bother me at all, if someone else needs to spend real money to get the same things I had fun getting in game I say let them.
Voted no.
But honestly reading through the examples, most of those are fair play.
Keys in TF2 don't unlock vertical upgrades. That is: no matter how many chests you unlock in TF2, nothing you get from those chests makes you more powerful than a very skilled player using the default gear.
Similarly, no amount of IP boosts in LoL changes the fact that a skilled player is going to demolish you.
"Statistical edge" is the only example provided of genuinely unfair gaming.
Again, keys in TF2 are the only way to unlock chests. It's a probability edge in the sense that you have 0% chance of getting what's in those crates unless you pay. But again: the upgrades are lateral unlocks and cosmetic items, so it doesn't matter.
Personally I find any lateral unlock to be acceptable, especially when those lateral items (content, weapons, whatever) are available without paying (as nearly everything is in LoL, Tribes, or TF2.)
MMORPGs like EQ2 and LOTRO are extremely close to the ideal (the ideal displayed by LoL, Tribes, and TF2.) They offer a few sort of dubious items which prevent me from using them as an example in most F2P threads, but they're pretty dang close to what F2P should be.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
In those examples you would be CHEATING. It would be bannable and against the rules. I guess since people also glitch, hack, and mod a game Anet should just endorse that as well? I guess it doesn't concern you at all that this form of gold selling that Anet now endorses could get you a lifetime account ban in some games?
I'm sorry but that argument is just a poor line of thinking. People justify doing all sorts of bad things because, hey, if you can't beat em join em. Why not just cheat on your taxes, steal from your companies office supplies, mod your multiplayer PVP game, research glitches, buy gold, etc. Everybody's doing it...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
I can't believe the complete lack of understanding of simple economics. There is no new money in the game. It does not affect you. One player previously had those funds to purchase with, now a different one does. There is nothing right now in game you can use that money on that can give you an advantage except for very very very very incredibly affordable items that are only of debatable advantage (siege stuff). There is no super skill you can only purchase with gold, no armor set that is better than all the rest, no advantage to be gained.
The reason it is key that arena net is not selling gold directly is that would cause inflation of gold prices, causing a scenario where only the people that purchased gold would be able to keep up. In this situation, that is completely avoided. It is a wonderful way to step around the problem which is why you do not hear complaints about it in eve - sidenote - if you think ships in eve are massively expensive, then you are flying above what you should be with your current skills - you're doing it wrong. In this situation where not only is there nothing to purchase to get an advantage with that money, but also prices are not inflated, you are completely in every way unaffected by this - EXCEPT that you now have the ability to either spend real money or in game money to get a new outfit that doesn't affect your stats.
LOL we all get it. You are just repeating yourself.
This method of pay2win is much better for the in-game economy, if that is important. It is still pay2win though.
But you can keep repeating how no gold is created and pretend that the player who gave Anet money for gems did not get any advantage for it. Maybe they should have made the transation $$$->gems->pearls->gold and made it even less pay2win LOL.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Instead of me repeating my rather clear argument hoping you will understand it, I would love for you to tell me all the advantages you are going to get.
OMG
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements