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Why Can't MMOs Be Intellectually Challenging?

//\//\oo//\//\oo MalboroughPosts: 2,767Member

I don't understand the continued trend of time invested => advancement.

It has been that way for almost two decades; why can't we have puzzle oriented MMOs, or something that truly tests the abilities of the players? 

 

You don't necessarily need to have puzzles either to make something challenging. What if they took the challenging raid encounters found late game and put them in a less stat-demanding form at the beginning of the game?

 

I don't know about you, but I'm really tired of the KILL X/Y, GATHER I/J quests that are just timesinks and not challenges. You can still have RPG elements in a puzzle game i.e. advancement through improved ability instead of advancement through time invested.

 

 

This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.

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Comments

  • GeeTeeEffOhGeeTeeEffOh Newington, CTPosts: 731Member

    You could try this one Myst Online

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    Because you would soon have advancement by looking it up on the Internet, the advantage of time served is that it cannot be skipped (unless your game offers a Cash shop but that is a different debate), you would need to have non repeating puzzles to make it work.
  • Angier2758Angier2758 Mt. Prospect, ILPosts: 1,011Member

    Originally posted by RefMinor

    Because you would soon have advancement by looking it up on the Internet, the advantage of time served is that it cannot be skipped (unless your game offers a Cash shop but that is a different debate), you would need to have non repeating puzzles to make it work.

    There's ways around that... make things random and placed random (with some kind of logic behind it).

     

    But after being in a world first guild.. let me tell you they don't get world first because they are smart... they get world firsts because they shmooze and kiss ass to get access before other guilds.

     

    What does that mean?  It means that the vast majority of the people playing mmos (even the hardcore) are dumb.

  • KakkzookaKakkzooka Waterbury, CTPosts: 591Member

    I'd love to see an "Opening of the Gates of AQ" scenario where the players, as a whole, have to figure out how to open some locale/instance/dungeon in some new MMO. ::cough rhymes with "stilled whores" cough::

    Re: SWTOR

    "Remember, remember - Kakk says 'December.'"

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 18,043Member Uncommon

    Single player games like that were actually common in the 80s and 90s, Discworld was my favorite.

    The problem is that wikis tend to make it hard nowadays, it isn't much of a challenge if most of the players copy their answers from wiki.

  • Eleanor41Eleanor41 San Francisco, CAPosts: 5Member

    I  would need to have non repeating puzzles to make it work.

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon

    There are a few MMOs that can be intellectually challenging (or at least used to be). However, most of them tend not to do that well financially. Lets face it, the majority of people in this world aren't all that intelligent, and don't particularly enjoy games that are 'too hard'. One of the big advantages (and disadvantages) of an MMO is that it both needs and thrives on having a sizeable amount of players in game. You just can't do that if you make the majority of them feel inferior or left out.

    I'm all for smarter games, it's one of the reasons I'm looking forward to GW2 amongst others, but I also understand why these games don't appear very often.

  • //\//\oo//\//\oo MalboroughPosts: 2,767Member

    Originally posted by RefMinor

    Because you would soon have advancement by looking it up on the Internet, the advantage of time served is that it cannot be skipped (unless your game offers a Cash shop but that is a different debate), you would need to have non repeating puzzles to make it work.

     

       There are plenty of puzzles that don't have simple algorithms. It's easy enough to generate a puzzle with random parameters so that every path and solution would not be the same for every player. 

      How about REAL AI that would learn from your moves? There are so many possibilities that haven't been explored/implemented, because people still fall for the old "invest enough time and you can be shiny too" advancement.

     

    Testing skill and knowledge still falls under intellectual challenge; if you have to use certain skills dependent on the enemys move instead of a set rotation, or learn certain patterns, whether you can look them up, or not, it's still more challenging than spamming the same sequence of buttons over and over again..

    I don't mind end-game raids so much, because they do require some learning and skill. What really peeves me is how you have to do repetitive things to advance, instead of improve your actual ability at the game.

     

    There are plenty of people who hit max level, but have no idea how the game is actually to be played optimally (or even somewhat effectively). It's hard to blame them though when they had to do the same mindless task 1000 times to reach that point.

     

    This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.

  • //\//\oo//\//\oo MalboroughPosts: 2,767Member

    Originally posted by Loke666

    Single player games like that were actually common in the 80s and 90s, Discworld was my favorite.

    The problem is that wikis tend to make it hard nowadays, it isn't much of a challenge if most of the players copy their answers from wiki.

     

     

       Look at hard-mode raid encounters in WoW: A lot of people with sufficient gear aren't able to complete them due to insufficient ability, although they already know how the encounter will work, etc.

       Why can't those encounters be the centerpiece of the game? What if every mob required you to learn its abilities and adapted?

     

      Things that are tedious are boring.

    This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.

  • CastillleCastillle KhobarPosts: 2,703Member Uncommon

    SWTOR had one puzzle in one of the planets where there were electric poles connected to each other and a machine on each pole.  each time you pressed one, it would turn on/off all the ones connected to it (except for 2 of the poles which ignored one specific pole it was connected to) .  you had to turn on all the poles to power a canon and shoot down a ship o.o It was flat out awesome.

    There were 2 groups that werent able to do it and skipped it.  I was able to solve it after a bit of testing.  Ofc the rest of the time I Was there, people were always like "WTF THIS IS BUGGED!!!" -.-  So I think mainstream mmos cant be intellectually challenging unless they know its going to be puzzle oriented and ease them into different puzzle mechanics (Im assuming theyve never touched puzzle games) o.o

    More of those kinds of puzzles would be awesome but if something as simple as that makes most of the players just skip it...yknoe..its kinda hopeless.

    MMOPRPG would be awesome though...

     

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  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,481Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by //\//\oo

    I don't understand the continued trend of time invested => advancement.

    It has been that way for almost two decades; why can't we have puzzle oriented MMOs, or something that truly tests the abilities of the players? 

     

    You don't necessarily need to have puzzles either to make something challenging. What if they took the challenging raid encounters found late game and put them in a less stat-demanding form at the beginning of the game?

     

    I don't know about you, but I'm really tired of the KILL X/Y, GATHER I/J quests that are just timesinks and not challenges. You can still have RPG elements in a puzzle game i.e. advancement through improved ability instead of advancement through time invested.

     

     

    Suppose you could make a intellectually challenging game such that only 1 in 10,000 players could do well playing and the tens of millions of dollars in upfront dev costs to make your brainy game.  Now, for the sake of discussion, say you have a market of 10,000,000 mmorpg players.  What that would mean is that you are spending tens of millions of dollars to get 1,000 players who would do well at playing the game, assuming you could get them to come to your game in the first place.  It's a poor ROI.

  • //\//\oo//\//\oo MalboroughPosts: 2,767Member

    Originally posted by waynejr2

    Originally posted by //\//\oo

    I don't understand the continued trend of time invested => advancement.

    It has been that way for almost two decades; why can't we have puzzle oriented MMOs, or something that truly tests the abilities of the players? 

     

    You don't necessarily need to have puzzles either to make something challenging. What if they took the challenging raid encounters found late game and put them in a less stat-demanding form at the beginning of the game?

     

    I don't know about you, but I'm really tired of the KILL X/Y, GATHER I/J quests that are just timesinks and not challenges. You can still have RPG elements in a puzzle game i.e. advancement through improved ability instead of advancement through time invested.

     

     

    Suppose you could make a intellectually challenging game such that only 1 in 10,000 players could do well playing and the tens of millions of dollars in upfront dev costs to make your brainy game.  Now, for the sake of discussion, say you have a market of 10,000,000 mmorpg players.  What that would mean is that you are spending tens of millions of dollars to get 1,000 players who would do well at playing the game, assuming you could get them to come to your game in the first place.  It's a poor ROI.

     

      Not if you give players the option to choose, or if you implement things trivially and allow the existence of a wiki (which is essentially a choice).

    How about this as an idea: You can do something trivial n times to advance (for people who don't want to be as intellectually challenged), or solve something non-trivial as a quicker means of advancement granted you're capable enough?

     

     

    This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.

  • cutthecrapcutthecrap nobusinessofyoursPosts: 600Member

    Originally posted by Castillle

    SWTOR had one puzzle in one of the planets where there were electric poles connected to each other and a machine on each pole.  each time you pressed one, it would turn on/off all the ones connected to it (except for 2 of the poles which ignored one specific pole it was connected to) .  you had to turn on all the poles to power a canon and shoot down a ship o.o It was flat out awesome.

    There were 2 groups that werent able to do it and skipped it.  I was able to solve it after a bit of testing.  Ofc the rest of the time I Was there, people were always like "WTF THIS IS BUGGED!!!" -.-  So I think mainstream mmos cant be intellectually challenging unless they know its going to be puzzle oriented and ease them into different puzzle mechanics (Im assuming theyve never touched puzzle games) o.o

    More of those kinds of puzzles would be awesome but if something as simple as that makes most of the players just skip it...yknoe..its kinda hopeless.

    MMOPRPG would be awesome though...

     

    TSW will be interesting regarding this, since there'll be a hell of a lot of puzzles in the various missions. The guy who's the game director for The Secret World, Ragnar Tornquist, is the same guy responsible for puzzle adventure games Dreamfall and The Longest Journey.

  • eyeswideopeneyeswideopen Fresno, CAPosts: 2,414Member


    Why Can't MMOs Be Intellectually Challenging?

    Because most mmo players are already intellectually challenged.

    Don't bring calculus into a kindergarten class.

     

    -Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.-
    -And on the 8th day, man created God.-

  • GeeTeeEffOhGeeTeeEffOh Newington, CTPosts: 731Member


    Originally posted by eyeswideopen

    Why Can't MMOs Be Intellectually Challenging?
    Because most mmo players are already intellectually challenged.
    Don't bring calculus into a kindergarten class.
     

    That's kinda funny. LOL

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member

    In general, it takes a lot longer for a developer to create a good puzzle than it takes a community to tear it apart and solve it. 

  • FuryVFuryV BlahblahblahPosts: 342Member Uncommon

    "Why Can't MMOs Be Intellectually Challenging?"

     

    Simple... Because most of humanity isn't intellectually gifted.

  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member

    TTS will have some boss puzzles. Some puzzles might take months to complete, obviously not actual total time, but the time period. Puzzles will do things like unlock hidden cities with hoards of magical knowledge, this is one of the month long type ones, unleash free roam bosses on accident :), unlock fast travel between specific points and do various other things.

    Also players can design their own puzzles for various reasons.

    Puzzles might involve math, science, or historical knowledge in a general sense, ie knowledge of earth history puzzle types things will be clues, also teamwork and crafting and maybe magic. Puzzles will be one off activities because TTS is a virtual world and there are no phases, instances, or static resetting or spawning areas. There will even be some platformer style reflex puzzles.

    The whole world is essentially a puzzle as well. For instance climbing a mountain to create a rope climbing path or building a monkey bridge or something will allow travel between points to be sped up. And so forth.

    I really really don't care if having awesome puzzles puts off the faux gamer masses. Or if some people cannot complete them due to intellectual limits. And in the case of reflex puzzles, reflex limits.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    Originally posted by FuryV

    "Why Can't MMOs Be Intellectually Challenging?"

     Simple... Because most of humanity isn't intellectually gifted.

    True...but the vast majority consider themselves more gifted than the other guys.  A statistically suspect, but firmly held belief.

    I suspect that the true answer lies on the development side--puzzles (for example) are not terribly popular with gamers, and "good" ai (creature logic) is far less easy to design than most players believe it to be...and less useful than assumed.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • SythionSythion Salem, ORPosts: 422Member

    Originally posted by RefMinor

    Because you would soon have advancement by looking it up on the Internet, the advantage of time served is that it cannot be skipped (unless your game offers a Cash shop but that is a different debate), you would need to have non repeating puzzles to make it work.

    That's fine by me.

    I think the idea that people need to "serve their time" like they are in a prison in order to be successful needs to gtfo of the genre asap.

    image
  • bishboshbishbosh SydneyPosts: 388Member

    ermm OP i thought this was fairly well known

    most people are not very intelligent and they do not like to use their brains. make stupid games, that way you have a huge audience and lots of money. this applies to almost everything - movies, books, television shows etc etc

  • LarsaLarsa NurembergPosts: 990Member

    Originally posted by //\//\oo

    I don't understand the continued trend of time invested => advancement.

    ...

    I don't know about you, but I'm really tired of the KILL X/Y, GATHER I/J quests that are just timesinks and not challenges. You can still have RPG elements in a puzzle game i.e. advancement through improved ability instead of advancement through time invested.

    If anything the current trend is exactly the opposite to what you say in your post: the newer the game the less time is needed to advance. (Case in point SWToR, Rift, GW2, etc.). They're all made with the "casual" gamer in mind, the gamer that does not want to spend time, that does not want to organise anything, that does not want to accept a defeat but instead is interested to have some easy, fast action and get a pat on the back for it while being called heroic.

    BTW, when you're tired of the "KILL X/Y, GATHER I/J quests" then that only shows that you played too many themepark games. Just don't buy them anymore and you'll never have a "KILL X/Y, GATHER I/J quest" again. :)

    I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.

  • ElikalElikal ValhallaPosts: 7,906Member Uncommon

    Hahahaha... if I answer THAT question honestly I am getting banned.

    *gets in a corner and laughs like a madman* XD

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member

    Originally posted by Elikal

    Hahahaha... if I answer THAT question honestly I am getting banned.

    *gets in a corner and laughs like a madman* XD

    Getting banned is a good thing. It means you aren't afraid of the truth.

  • JakdstripperJakdstripper logan lake, BCPosts: 2,126Member Uncommon

    to tell you the truth 90% of people play games to relax and have some quick fun. if they have to sit there and solve puzzles for half an hour before they can get to some action most popel just wont play it. nobody want's to work in their games, they have RL for that.

     

     

    just look at the most popular games (CoD). it's fast, simple, instant gratification. it's how mmos are turning out to be more and more. log in, que up for pve or pvp, get some instant prize, log out.

     

     

    while i understand how games have to catter to a very large demographic to be succesful, it would be nice if devs would devise a "elite raiding" portion of games dedicated to those that want a very high technical difficulty that is based not on gear and numbers but more on puzzles, timing, and problem solving. still, it would be very expencive development aimed at a very small portion of subscribers.

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