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Star Wars: The Old Republic: Verdict on the Fourth Pillar

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Comments

  • DranmarthDranmarth LeJunior, KYPosts: 17Member Uncommon

    The story aspect was great, and between that and my guild, is what kept me in the game for so long, but you can't ignore everything else except the story and be successful.

  • palulalulapalulalula vukovarPosts: 655Member

    Originally posted by skeeter667

    Having played this game since beta starting last july I can say that all this story does is to make an MMO more of a single player game with lots of people around you playing the same single player game.But does it make you fell heroic?Not really becuase at end game every toon that is 50 have all saved the galaxy through their own story line that more then likely they soloed through.Its nice to have a general theme to your journey to level cap but Biowares story doesn't really do much besides change your standing to light side or darkside the choices don't really change your staory at all which if the story was so important these choices would mean more then they do.IMO of course your miles may vary.




     

    Well you feel that way because you are not role player in your heart. Simple as that, and we have more and more players who want to play MMORPG but without RPG.

  • PyrateLVPyrateLV Las Vegas, NVPosts: 1,096Member Common

    Originally posted by palulalula



    Originally posted by skeeter667



    Having played this game since beta starting last july I can say that all this story does is to make an MMO more of a single player game with lots of people around you playing the same single player game.But does it make you fell heroic?Not really becuase at end game every toon that is 50 have all saved the galaxy through their own story line that more then likely they soloed through.Its nice to have a general theme to your journey to level cap but Biowares story doesn't really do much besides change your standing to light side or darkside the choices don't really change your staory at all which if the story was so important these choices would mean more then they do.IMO of course your miles may vary.










     

    Well you feel that way because you are not role player in your heart. Simple as that, and we have more and more players who want to play MMORPG but without RPG.

    So those that think that SWTOR is shallow and linear in story arent real RPers at heart?

    And what make you such an expert on what does and does not make a roleplayer and whether or not someone is one?

     

     

    Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
    Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
    Playing: Skyrim
    Following: The Repopulation
    I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
    ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)

  • jeremyjodesjeremyjodes antioch, ORPosts: 679Member

    The 4th pillar failed. It's the reason you got a partialy completed beta they now call an MMO. I tried not to spew hate, but I can't believe this company was allowed all these years to get by on the whole "story" aspect.

    This game is the most linear themepark trash I have ever tested/played. and all through beta and pre-release I held my tongue. I knew once it released the promises would come in waves. they might be new at the MMO game. but really were did a few hundred million dollars go?

    Sad to say but EA louse was right all along.

    I hate to make folks angry that might like the game, but after so many years of arrogant devs who spend more time hyping for PR then working out something fun and worth playing, we get yet another SW MMO thats failed because ego's won't listen to all the good people who spent years on those forums telling them if they go this route bad stuff might happen.

    I hope they do well. I hope they make the game worth the effort for the players, but the only thing to save any game is when players revolt with their wallets and even then you the odds are stacked because the bean counters design MMO's these days.

    image

  • OlgarkOlgark BostonPosts: 319Member Uncommon

    I am on a EU PVE-RPG server in SWTOR and its basicaly empty, even at peak times for the EU timezone. Trying to find a group to do flashpoiints is nearly impossible.

    As for the VO and storyline I like it and even though I have gone through some of the early parts to them or done flashpoints over and over I have never space bared my way through them. Although most groups start to spam at me to spacebar. I refuse to do this.

    As for the future of SWTOR it will be F2P by the end of next year I think. We will see server merges this year.





    To make a succsesfull MMO you need three things and these three things work only in a sandbox MMO.


    1) Harvesting resources.


    2) Crafting /Player driven market where everything is made by the players.


    3) Destruction of property in pvp. Player cities, ships and equipment.

    image

  • Hopscotch73Hopscotch73 DublinPosts: 971Member

    Honestly, I think the main issue with the stories is inconsistency, some of them are truly wonderful (Agent) some are bizarre (Inquisitor) and some are deathly boring (Consular).

    The Trooper storyline is saved for me in the low parts by rolling a female because Jennifer Hale can make anything sound interesting.

    I think that they were trying to provide a story for everyone instead of just telling 8 amazing stories and to heck with the demographics.

    They have promised more story content this year, and to be honest, I'm interested in seeing how life is for my Operative based on the choices I made at the end of my storyline. If nothing much has changed, I'm gonna be very disappointed. However, this is where the branching thing gets hinky...considering the way things end for most classes, for there to be continuity going forward they must have some crazy branches on that storytelling tree of theirs.

    As others have said, more work needs to be done on areas other than story to make the game complete. Part of the problem with bringing SPG style storytelling into the MMO space is that people will then play the game like an SPG or a CORPG unless there's a concerted effort made to funnel them out of that mindset, and in SWTOR all the funnelling is down that linear path to the next chunk of story.

    I still play SWTOR, I'll play the classes I enjoy to 50, and then I'll see how I feel about the shape the endgame is in. I don't get angry or defensive about criticisms thrown at the game, I agree with some criticisms even if I find the rage attached to some of them a bit baffling. I had around 6 months of testing pre-launch, and I knew what I was getting in to. Slam my tastes all you want, I'm used to being seen as an oddball... 

  • wyldmagikwyldmagik SouthamptonPosts: 307Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Hopscotch73

    Honestly, I think the main issue with the stories is inconsistency, some of them are truly wonderful (Agent) some are bizarre (Inquisitor) and some are deathly boring (Consular).

    The Trooper storyline is saved for me in the low parts by rolling a female because Jennifer Hale can make anything sound interesting.

    I think that they were trying to provide a story for everyone instead of just telling 8 amazing stories and to heck with the demographics.

    They have promised more story content this year, and to be honest, I'm interested in seeing how life is for my Operative based on the choices I made at the end of my storyline. If nothing much has changed, I'm gonna be very disappointed. However, this is where the branching thing gets hinky...considering the way things end for most classes, for there to be continuity going forward they must have some crazy branches on that storytelling tree of theirs.

    As others have said, more work needs to be done on areas other than story to make the game complete. Part of the problem with bringing SPG style storytelling into the MMO space is that people will then play the game like an SPG or a CORPG unless there's a concerted effort made to funnel them out of that mindset, and in SWTOR all the funnelling is down that linear path to the next chunk of story.

    I still play SWTOR, I'll play the classes I enjoy to 50, and then I'll see how I feel about the shape the endgame is in. I don't get angry or defensive about criticisms thrown at the game, I agree with some criticisms even if I find the rage attached to some of them a bit baffling. I had around 6 months of testing pre-launch, and I knew what I was getting in to. Slam my tastes all you want, I'm used to being seen as an oddball... 



    ^ ^ fresh air... nice to see :)

  • Mors.MagneMors.Magne LondonPosts: 1,420Member

    I think SWTOR-type games are being superceeded by the Eve-DUST combination.

    Rather than using financial clout, CCP are progressing by using concepts and making use of the full range of technology.

  • DauzqulDauzqul Detroit, MIPosts: 1,402Member Uncommon

    I enjoyed the story at first. However, the "I'm a special little snowflake" aura quickly rubbed off when watching others just blast through the same exact quests. But more importantly, the story started to become long and annoying - glorified versions of doing the same old bullshit, e.g., click on supply crates to recover stolen supplies (did that one at least 100 times), kill these and bring me their meat, etc.

     

    It got old too fast. What made me cancel was the fact that there was nothing to do other than Warzones outside of the story.

    In all honestly, SWTOR was probably the worst MMO I've ever experienced. It felt nothing more than a marketing cash cow. The Star Wars franchise is starting to feel cheap.

  • JILogan11JILogan11 AdelaidePosts: 18Member

    How has SWTOR still got a 8.5 / 7.9 rating? Why not count up the positive and negative posts and rate it that way? By my count that would make about a 2 out of 10.

    Story... It didn't compel me to play or keep playing. I couldn't even bring myself to play through the whole 30 'free' days. The VO was interesting enough with the companion but having no choice of companion and seeing everybody run around with the same 1 made me lose my interest in mine. I made my way through 20 days and had several Alts (no main) on both sides up to having 3 in the high 20s. Around day 15 I noticed that I would sign in and wait in the queue and the wait kept getting shorter and shorter but by day 18 I mostly wasn't interested in logging any character in.

    I vaguely remember a story about a runaway lab experiment that got force powers from eating dead Jedi parts fed to him by his trainer.... That should say a lot about the '4th Pillar' and that was only 2 months ago that I quit playing SWTOR.

    On the other hand... Even though I quit playing over 4 years ago and I'm not a PvPer for the most part, I still remember many fever pitched, epic, sweating bullets, screaming, shouting, keyboard pounding battles (was it the Arathi Highlands, the mountains and snow) in WoW. Many of the top PvPers were legndary and players would brag that they played in the same match with them. Can't rememeber any stories.

    EVE (as far as I can tell) has no story but Corporations actually change the Galaxy and wars rage on for years. I have played in small stints off and on over the years.

    I won't go into the many reasons I feel that the gameplay side of SWTOR is disappointing but I think (in addition to what everybody else is saying about the story having no consequences) that one of the things that make the story irrelevant is that there are only 2 sides and everybody and all the NPCs knows that. There aren't any subgroups with their own long drawn out dramas and storylines.

    There is no choice. Even though I don't remember any of the stories from WoW I do remember that many of my toons kind of gravitated to certain areas because of the atmosphere and interesting questlines (the area with all the Zombies and Werewolves springs to mind) regardless of my race or class. That was my choice. I wanted to go THERE. I wanted to do THOSE quests. I wanted to gain THAT faction's favour to reap THOSE rewards and titles. SWTOR has very little of those choices and the ones they do in no way improve upon the gaming experience above what WoW was doing 7 years ago.

    There isn't even any personal implications or consequences to the stories. No matter what you do, you get exactly the same quests in the same order from start to end (at least up to 30).

     

    I created a new account and logged in over the last free weekend.... once. I rolled a new character in a class I hadn't tried before because I wanted to see if the gameplay had improved or the story was better for that 1. I played for a few hours but didn't bother logging in the next day.

    I never thought anybody could screw up a huge gig like Star Trek Online did but SWTOR has found new and more expensive depths in which to sink.

  • maniacfoxmaniacfox SheffieldPosts: 171Member Common

    Forget ME or Dragon Age, gimme a Baldur's Gate MMO!

  • darkhalf357xdarkhalf357x Brooklyn, NYPosts: 1,164Member Uncommon

    Bioware painted themselves in a corner because the story (for all intensive purposes) can only be lived once. It creates a specific playthrough as opposed to letting the player create the playthrough.  But then at cap they switch from the 'fourth pillar' to standard MMO, just not as polished as others.  The game doesnt have a true identity and I feel thats part of the reason why people dislike it.

    If they were able to add new story content, say every month of so for all the classes with different branches, then we would be talking about a game changer.  But suspsect something of that magnitude would be either too complex or costly to produce (quality) on a consistent basis.

    While I must say the VO do make it hard to go back to reading text, and would love if future MMOs just had voice.  I dont need to watch a movie but if the NPCs could speak, it would be a huge plus and allow greater immersion into LORE (as most people dont read the text to begin with).

    image
  • JeroKaneJeroKane OsloPosts: 5,353Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by darkhalf357x

    Bioware painted themselves in a corner because the story (for all intensive purposes) can only be lived once. It creates a specific playthrough as opposed to letting the player create the playthrough.  But then at cap they switch from the 'fourth pillar' to standard MMO, just not as polished as others.  The game doesnt have a true identity and I feel thats part of the reason why people dislike it.

    If they were able to add new story content, say every month of so for all the classes with different branches, then we would be talking about a game changer.  But suspsect something of that magnitude would be either too complex or costly to produce (quality) on a consistent basis.

    While I must say the VO do make it hard to go back to reading text, and would love if future MMOs just had voice.  I dont need to watch a movie but if the NPCs could speak, it would be a huge plus and allow greater immersion into LORE (as most people dont read the text to begin with).




     

    Back at launch EverQuest 2 actually did it better with Voice Overs and still does.

    They made voice overs on NPC's that really mattered to create a living breathing world with great atmosphere.

    NPC's in Quenos and Freeport walking up to you, greeting in Full Voice over, main story questline NPC's with Voice overs, etc.

    The VO's were done in a balanced way and you were even able to download additional VO packs for other NPC's for free!

     

    SWTOR has spend nearly their ENTIRE budget on Voice Overs and everything else (you know the ACTUAL gameplay that matters) suffered from it. Too many things were scrapped, unfinished or plain non existent that make an MMORPG an MMORPG with longterm appeal!

  • ElikalElikal ValhallaPosts: 8,063Member

    I wasn't that impressed tbh. I mean I liked the personal story and the decisions a lot. Really. But overall, it was 1-2 single player stories and then it was game over for me. I had fun with those 2 stories, Jedi Knight and Sith Inq., but I didn't feel I wanted to spent time beyond that in SWTOR, and story didn't make me stay. It was good, it was nice, but it just wasn't a MMO I experienced.

    And while I liked the story much, I know I can live quite well without VO and choices, if the next MMO has other things I like.

    Personal note. I hope Bioware never makes another MMO. But that's just how I feel.

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • AnkurAnkur MarrakeshPosts: 334Member

    i enjoyed Smuggler and BH stories. Got myself some decent gear from operation and now i will wait till new content is released. it is all right we are not obliged to play MMOS for ever. People should quit when bored and come back later when there are new things to do. i cancelled my sub for now atleast till 1.2

  • musicmannmusicmann port allen, LAPosts: 1,107Member

    Originally posted by Elikal

    I wasn't that impressed tbh. I mean I liked the personal story and the decisions a lot. Really. But overall, it was 1-2 single player stories and then it was game over for me. I had fun with those 2 stories, Jedi Knight and Sith Inq., but I didn't feel I wanted to spent time beyond that in SWTOR, and story didn't make me stay. It was good, it was nice, but it just wasn't a MMO I experienced.

    And while I liked the story much, I know I can live quite well without VO and choices, if the next MMO has other things I like.

    Personal note. I hope Bioware never makes another MMO. But that's just how I feel.

    The real shame of it all is that they made a boring and crappy game using the SW IP. If they wanted to screw something up they should have used their own IP and made a ME game instead.

  • IshkalIshkal Schaumburg, ILPosts: 42Member

    if 90% of players spacebar then they did not make the difference they intended. Even if 25% of player rly like it it was wasted money that could have been used on real development thats missing even now months after release. I do not like it and here is why.

    1. I only get an hour a day to play after work or afew hours after school and who rly wants to just do 3 quests while they listen to 20 minutes of dialogue

    2.Connection issues, Zomg who hasnt sat there even after watching the whole cut scene just to stare at " waiting on other players " flashing at you for 30sec to 1min that time ads up over flashpoints/quests to be an insane amount of time over the life of a charater.

    3. This is an mmo an if the story accentuated the MMO then ya a nice addition. It  does not however in even one single way. This is not a single player game guys. Is there anything that the story affect on an MMO lvl? Your interaction with other players? The game content? How bout the gear that drops? Does the story help you in pvp? Oh I know the story an choices must affect the end game story line so that you and you friends can enjoy a unique experience based on all of your personalities,nope not that either.

    (Just my opnion in response to the direct question posted by the Author)

  • UnlightUnlight Ottawa, ONPosts: 2,540Member

    Originally posted by DeaconX

    Please DO NOT blame the idea of intrudicing a more meaningful and deep narrative into MMORPG's as the problem.  Blame WEAK writing and design.

    True, so long as it doesn't come at the expense of game play. 

    To me, a good story is important to an MMO.  However, good game play is pivotal.  This game may have had the former, but I never saw any indication of the latter.  One can get away with that for a single player game, but for an MMO that will live or die by it's ability to retain players, it's just unacceptable.  Stories will lose their impact after you've experienced ithem once, no matter how good they were.  It's just not something that will keep people hooked for the long term.  Solid, exciting game play will keep people returning though.

  • MythrylMythryl Hoffman Estates, ILPosts: 18Member Common

    Originally posted by darkhalf357x

    Bioware painted themselves in a corner because the story (for all intensive purposes) can only be lived once. It creates a specific playthrough as opposed to letting the player create the playthrough.  But then at cap they switch from the 'fourth pillar' to standard MMO, just not as polished as others.  The game doesnt have a true identity and I feel thats part of the reason why people dislike it.

    If they were able to add new story content, say every month of so for all the classes with different branches, then we would be talking about a game changer.  But suspsect something of that magnitude would be either too complex or costly to produce (quality) on a consistent basis.

    While I must say the VO do make it hard to go back to reading text, and would love if future MMOs just had voice.  I dont need to watch a movie but if the NPCs could speak, it would be a huge plus and allow greater immersion into LORE (as most people dont read the text to begin with).

    I believe you mean "for all intents and purposes".

     

  • iamflymoloiamflymolo Hampton, TNPosts: 152Member

    I think Bioware has proven that a good story and some fine voice acting can do a lot for a game. Unfortunately, Bioware didn't really care to make a good game beyond this element so they're sort of standing on one pillar. But there are still an awful lot of people playing this somewhat lack-luster game so clearly the story accounts for a lot in gaming. I'm sure Blizzard is already lining up a lot of actors for their new mmo due to the success of swtor and a lot of other companies will follow suit. The first game that actually succeeds in making a solid game with swtor quality story telling might end up being the much-sought-out "wow killer."

  • musicmannmusicmann port allen, LAPosts: 1,107Member

    Originally posted by Unlight

    Originally posted by DeaconX

    Please DO NOT blame the idea of intrudicing a more meaningful and deep narrative into MMORPG's as the problem.  Blame WEAK writing and design.

    True, so long as it doesn't come at the expense of game play. 

    To me, a good story is important to an MMO.  However, good game play is pivotal.  This game may have had the former, but I never saw any indication of the latter.  One can get away with that for a single player game, but for an MMO that will live or die by it's ability to retain players, it's just unacceptable.  Stories will lose their impact after you've experienced ithem once, no matter how good they were.  It's just not something that will keep people hooked for the long term.  Solid, exciting game play will keep people returning though.

    But if the game was built up for bringing in and capturing KOTOR fans first and mmo gamers second, then the picture becomes much clearer on why TOR is set up the way it is. To me, it's the reason why they kept everything so secret almost all the way up to launch day. They knew they needed the pre-orders and capture those initial sales to be able to try and make up as much as they could to cover the cost of the game's developement. They were able to use the SW IP to get those people to buy those 6 month sub package to keep those sub numbers looking high.

    Now all of this is my opinon only, but i don't think Bioware's focus was to keep players for long term or once they reached level 50. The game is just not setup to do so.

  • HurricanePipHurricanePip Sommerille, MAPosts: 167Member

    I don't fault people for enjoying TOR.  I can't speak for them and the game is a solid MMO experience.  However, like other have said ... and the author specifically ... the voiceover are in many cases like listening to some read the quest boxes to you. 

    It's a cool idea in theory, but due to the very standard hotkey gameplay, doesn't add as much to the game as expected.  Playing TOR just made me appriciate the nuances of single player RPGs more than bridge the gap between the two.

    I guess I enjoyed CoH and WoW, but thempark MMOs just don't do it for me anymore.  The longer I played themepark MMOs, the more I wanted something more ...

    I don't know ... once gcd MMO with a Hot, DoT, DD, Hamstring, etc ability is the same as the next no matter what graphical skin you put on it.

    If you don't worry about it, it's not a problem.

  • Moaky07Moaky07 Flushing, MIPosts: 2,096Member

    Originally posted by musicmann

    Originally posted by Neloth

    It made the difference for me, TOR is the only mmo I consider worth my time and I think many casual players like it, the space-bar crowd and hardcore folks should look for another game IMO.

    You're correct. TOR is the most boring and casual game on the planet. The rub is, It's the only so called mmo that is using the SW IP, and it may be the last. So that leaves fans that want a more open and deeper SW mmorpg , kinda left out in the cold. If Bioware wanted to screw something up, in my book, they should have used their own ME IP.

    That is the thing though isnt it?

     

    You had a SW sandbox, it tanked liked a mofo, and it was shut down. If you wanna blame someone, blame yourselves. Rather than 2 or 3 subs, if you wanted it so bad, then you should of carried 5 or more each.  Folks did everything they could to badmouth SWG into the grave after NGE, and now they bitch cause it is gone. I mean you cant make this stuff up.

     

    What it comes down to is this: The sandbox MMO crowd provides enough support for a smaller studio.

     

    Until you show you can provide the needed income for the proverbial AAA variety, you will take what you can get, and ya better hope ya like it. 

     

    As far as story.....I like BW story based games.  The game fits my casual style to MMO gaming these days.

    Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.

  • Moaky07Moaky07 Flushing, MIPosts: 2,096Member

    Originally posted by musicmann

    Originally posted by Elikal

    I wasn't that impressed tbh. I mean I liked the personal story and the decisions a lot. Really. But overall, it was 1-2 single player stories and then it was game over for me. I had fun with those 2 stories, Jedi Knight and Sith Inq., but I didn't feel I wanted to spent time beyond that in SWTOR, and story didn't make me stay. It was good, it was nice, but it just wasn't a MMO I experienced.

    And while I liked the story much, I know I can live quite well without VO and choices, if the next MMO has other things I like.

    Personal note. I hope Bioware never makes another MMO. But that's just how I feel.

    The real shame of it all is that they made a boring and crappy game using the SW IP. If they wanted to screw something up they should have used their own IP and made a ME game instead.

    Dont go there.

     

    Koster launched a buggy, no content having, POS title in SWG. Regardless if you like TOR or not, we arent crashing to desktop constantly, and there are things for everythintg to do.

     

    SWG was the most expensive MMO made at the time, and it was an epic failure. When they have totally revamped TOR twice, then come talk to us.

    Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.

  • ignore_meignore_me Apple Valley, CAPosts: 1,987Member

    Originally posted by Moaky07

    Originally posted by musicmann


    Originally posted by Neloth

    It made the difference for me, TOR is the only mmo I consider worth my time and I think many casual players like it, the space-bar crowd and hardcore folks should look for another game IMO.

    You're correct. TOR is the most boring and casual game on the planet. The rub is, It's the only so called mmo that is using the SW IP, and it may be the last. So that leaves fans that want a more open and deeper SW mmorpg , kinda left out in the cold. If Bioware wanted to screw something up, in my book, they should have used their own ME IP.

    That is the thing though isnt it?

     

    You had a SW sandbox, it tanked liked a mofo, and it was shut down. If you wanna blame someone, blame yourselves. Rather than 2 or 3 subs, if you wanted it so bad, then you should of carried 5 or more each.  Folks did everything they could to badmouth SWG into the grave after NGE, and now they bitch cause it is gone. I mean you cant make this stuff up.

     

    What it comes down to is this: The sandbox MMO crowd provides enough support for a smaller studio.

     

    Until you show you can provide the needed income for the proverbial AAA variety, you will take what you can get, and ya better hope ya like it. 

     

    As far as story.....I like BW story based games.  The game fits my casual style to MMO gaming these days.

    This is really good, AAA quality oversimplification.

    SWG would still be live if the IP didn't have an expensive license, and if it wasn't nearly 8 years old. At some point you trade in the old car for a new one even if the old car was a great car. Problem is that the new car turned out to be a piece of crap marketed aggressively, and overhyped with innuendo suggesting more than was delivered. This was done mainly through omission and secrecy, not active message control or distortions. SO it's not a matter of they told me what to expect, but more like they let the train go nuts without thinking about how the hype trajectory would end.

    As for the sandbox hating, I'm not buying it anymore. It's a false dichotomy. 'Them lousy sandboxers' sounds like old man ranting. These are design features, not political ideologies for fuck's sake.

    I am happy for you that you like the game though. And I mean that because I remember what it was like.

     

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

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