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Star Wars: The Old Republic: Verdict on the Fourth Pillar

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  • ariestearieste toronto, ONPosts: 3,308Member Common

    Originally posted by RefMinor

    Originally posted by CujoSWAoA

    MikeB you already listed this game as your 10th favorite Star Wars game of all time.

    Which just in itself proves that you've no idea what a good Star Wars game even is.

     

    And there are only 8 SW games :D

    for real?  i'm not arguing, just trying to actually count.. let's see...

     

    Rebel Assault

    Rebel Assault 2

    Rebellion

    Dark Forces

    Jedi Knight

    Jedi Knight 2

    KOTOR

    KOTOR2

    SWG

    X-Wing

    Tie-Fighter

    X vs TF

    TOR

    The Force Unleashed

    The Force Unleashed 2

    uhm..there was another RTS one that i forget the name of... i think there are definitely more than 8 PC ones... 

     

    i probably missed a few...

    "I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

    - Raph Koster

    Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
    Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2
    Currently Playing: EQ2, Firefall

  • musicmannmusicmann port allen, LAPosts: 1,107Member

    Originally posted by PyrateLV

    Originally posted by CyclopsSlay

    At no point did the storyline feel even remotely exciting or engaging.  It was the same old recycled drivel every MMO out there has dragged out to the point of agony by the over usage of cutscenes.





    It is bad enough to see the text box giving pointless reasons why I need to go kill 10 Womp rats, now I need to watch and listen to the drivel as well?





    The I finish the great innovative and involoving storyline and they tell me I am the unverses one and ONLY appointed saviour, and they give me a title to prove it. Then 5 minutes later I have seen the 20th other person run past with the same 'unique' title...





    OH, where did the "your choices will influence the storyline" part get lost? 





     





    Sorry, the 4th Pillar is a 2D cardboard cut-out, totally lacking in any degree of depth.  Hell, Diplomacy in Vanguard tells 10x the story for a fraction of the effort, and everyone knows what a shining star VG is these days, eh?










     

    Red part made me laugh and realize how true this is.

    SWTOR as a whole reminds me of the lifesize cardboard cutouts you see in comic stores.

    They look real from a distance, but then when you really get a closer look its just a 2d fake.

     

    Yep. About as 2D and deep as the water in the game itself.

  • MrPatMrPat Blainville, QCPosts: 11Member

    That's the revolution people ... having a tape recorder telling you the story. (WOOHOO, i feel young again with the bell telling me when to turn the page)

    Like i said THE story, not yours. YOURS come from real MMO where you are impacting the play field. I'll repeat what other said ... whatever the state of the fourth pillar, the other three are not strong enough (at the moment) to hold up the building.

    Tired of hearing the DEVS ... "Yes story, you like story, more story, yeah". I absolutely DISLIKE having to regrind characters over and over again for no real purpose but giving them my entertainment money.

  • ignore_meignore_me Apple Valley, CAPosts: 1,987Member

    Can they recognize this need to adapt though? I kind of doubt it.  

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • musicmannmusicmann port allen, LAPosts: 1,107Member

    Originally posted by ignore_me

    Can they recognize this need to adapt though? I kind of doubt it.  

    They can't and won't. They are the masters of the gaming world, they know best.

  • ThemePorkThemePork Boston, MAPosts: 312Member

    I didn't find the "story" entertaining at all, but then again I never did manage to get into solo RPGs (and that's what TOR feels like, at least when you're leveling).

    I'm really surprised at how fast I got bored with this game, being a SW fan and all.

    Oh well next time a game boasts story as their main attraction I'll make sure to look the other way...

     

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member

    My problem with the "fourth pillar" was that it really doesn't offer you anything that you can't get much better quality of in an SPRPG.

    The stories in SWTOR were literally crippled by the typical themepark MMORPG conceits like kill 10 x quests, slow pacing, and a static world.  Compare this to an SPRPG like Bioware's own Baldur's Gate where things in the world actually change based on the story and the story is paced well.

    To me, the SPRPG just does such a better job at conveying a story than an MMORPG does.  IMO, an MMORPG should let you know the background story of the world and then basically get out of your way.  Any story stuff in an MMORPG should largely be told through gameplay, and not through scripted cinematics.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • CujoSWAoACujoSWAoA Nooo, AKPosts: 1,781Member

    Originally posted by RefMinor

    Originally posted by CujoSWAoA

    MikeB you already listed this game as your 10th favorite Star Wars game of all time.

    Which just in itself proves that you've no idea what a good Star Wars game even is.

     

    And there are only 8 SW games :D

     

    Cute.

    There's more than 8.... you under-educated individual.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Episode-related titles


    Episode I: The Phantom Menace


    Episode II: Attack of the Clones


    Star Wars: The Clone Wars


    Episode III: Revenge of the Sith


    Episode IV: A New Hope


    Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back


    Episode VI: Return of the Jedi


    Series titles


    Super Star Wars


    X-Wing


    Rebel Assault

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    Rogue Squadron

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    Racer

    (Racing)


    Galactic Battlegrounds

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    Starfighter

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    Galaxies

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    Knights of the Old Republic

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    Battlefront

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    Lego Star Wars

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    The Force Unleashed

    (Action-adventure)


    Other

    (MMORPG)


    Other titles


    1980s


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    StarWars.com



    • Carbon Connection


    • Force Flight


    • Garbage Masher


    • Sharpshooter Clone Training (2008)


    • Live Fire (2008)


    • Clones vs. Droids[14]

  • ignore_meignore_me Apple Valley, CAPosts: 1,987Member

    Originally posted by musicmann

    Originally posted by ignore_me

    Can they recognize this need to adapt though? I kind of doubt it.  

    They can't and won't. They are the masters of the gaming world, they know best.

    That's the truth, and I actually became angry reading that. Arrogant bastards. If you watched the guild summit you saw this. I know they were prepared to deal with rabid detractors, but as a PR note, a few times they came off like Bill Lundbergh from Office space.

    "Um yeah... I want to read your grammatically incorrect bio. Can you just put those subs on my desk ok that would be great"

    /parks porsche in handicapped spot

     

    I also cringe at Erickson's attempt to get the crowd to cheer by mentioning future "real"  Bioware storytelling. I know why he would do it, but the crowd reaction was tepid, as was mine.

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • ZorgoZorgo Deepintheheartof, TXPosts: 2,226Member

    Originally posted by RefMinor

    Considering VO made SWTOR the most expensive CORPG in the history of the world by a factor of two and all indications are that the numbers are tanking at an unhealthy rate, I think you will need to get your storyline fix from SPRPGs going forward. SWTOR was a step back for the MMORPG genre.

    And by 'numbers are tanking' I assume you  mean 'dropping at nearly the exact same rate and percentage points in nearly the exact same way under nearly an exact same timeframe as every mmo after release save for EVE and WoW"

     

  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member

    Originally posted by skeeter667

    Having played this game since beta starting last july I can say that all this story does is to make an MMO more of a single player game with lots of people around you playing the same single player game.But does it make you fell heroic?Not really becuase at end game every toon that is 50 have all saved the galaxy through their own story line that more then likely they soloed through.

    The story does no such thing...the way the story was implimented did that.

    Also as for not feeling heroic because everyone saves the galaxy in the end...umm, if each class saves the galaxy, each class is heroic...also, being heroic does not equal only what happens in the end, its what happens GETTING there.

    The story is great, the implimentation of the story via instanced everything was poor.

    I have called this a single player game with online multi-player capabilities for a long time, calling this an MMO is like calling unreal or quake an mmo in my eyes...they were also played by millions online. The only time this game felt like an MMO to me was during the stress test of the fleets at the end of beta. After that, I never saw more than a few dozen people in one place at a time and my server had near 2 hour long queues during early release.

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • AsamofAsamof La Canada, CAPosts: 738Member Uncommon

    hamfisting a single player style story into an MMO is the completely wrong way to approach it. Since the majority of the budget has to go to the endless hours of player voice acting (another fluff feature), the rest of the game suffers

    just to list a few: outdated game mechanics, little race diversity (color swapped humans lol), insane amount of dialogue/va (remember everyone: quality > quantity), less player choices/branching paths

    really, if gamers wanted a good story game, they'd pick up a single player title. I've never heard anyone say that the MMO genre was hurting because of the lack of narrative

    developers should be trying to push the genre by exploring concepts like the persistent world and player interaction, not by forcing in unessecary single player elements in

  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member

    Single player storylines which are repeated over and over by X number of players does the opposite of immersing me into the game, it kills immersion. I played a Jedi Guardian and repeteadly I had quests to save this planet or city or a group of people, yet when I finished it (or not) the planet, or whatever, I was supposed to save just moved on seemingly unaffected.

    This was specially the case in the last zone of the story arc of a Jedi Guardian where the Republic are battling the Empire and when this finishes you are supposedly pushed out the Empire from the planet. Yet the moment you leave your private instance, the same stationary Empire soldiers are there, just as nothing has happened. This makes no sense and is for me a sign that single player storylines makes absolutely no sense in an MMORPG which you share with thousands of other people. It simply is not a good fit.

    Now if on the other hand the story, and the outcome of which, somehow did affect the persistant world which you share with others I could agree that it would be the fourth pillar. Yet it does not, in SW:TOR, and not sure if at all possible in an MMORPG setting. And more importantly why are dev. created stories the fourth pillar? In an MMORPG it should be player created stories which are important and drives people to play the game and seek fame.

    So no, SW:TOR single player storylines is a big fail in MMORPGs. It is neither as good as in a single player RPG where your choices actually have real consequences nor does it bring anything positivie to the genre which should focus on bringing players together, rather than separating them into separate storylines, isolated from others.

  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member

    Originally posted by Asamof

    hamfisting a single player style story into an MMO is the completely wrong way to approach it. Since the majority of the budget has to go to the endless hours of player voice acting (another fluff feature), the rest of the game suffers

    Thats an illusion.

    Many MMOs have class quests, this games class quests stand out because you arent just running up to the quest giver, clicking on them and accepting it without even reading the quest story.

    As for the voice acting, you have no idea how much money was even spent on making the game let alone how much was spent on the acting...if you stop and look at what is in the game it becomes plain to see that those that are in charge of it know little to nothing about MMOs let alone RPGs.

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    Originally posted by arieste


    Originally posted by RefMinor


    Originally posted by CujoSWAoA

    MikeB you already listed this game as your 10th favorite Star Wars game of all time.


    Which just in itself proves that you've no idea what a good Star Wars game even is.

     

    And there are only 8 SW games :D

    for real?  i'm not arguing, just trying to actually count.. let's see...

     

    Rebel Assault

    Rebel Assault 2

    Rebellion

    Dark Forces

    Jedi Knight

    Jedi Knight 2

    KOTOR

    KOTOR2

    SWG

    X-Wing

    Tie-Fighter

    X vs TF

    TOR

    The Force Unleashed

    The Force Unleashed 2

    uhm..there was another RTS one that i forget the name of... i think there are definitely more than 8 PC ones... 

     

    i probably missed a few...

     

    Then it's the 16+a few+2th best SW game ever made. :D
  • NixlNixl Ctown, VAPosts: 67Member

    I was a very big Kotor fan, especially of Kotor 2, and I felt utterly disapointed by BW's direction of the story. I did not belleve in the 4th Pillar, because I honestly felt there was little to no writing to hold up such a pillar to begin with.  It felt like Bioware went for the safest, most standard story possible.  For a Bioware story I think they focused too much on action hero semantics and not setting.  

    Ultimately I believe that the validity of the "4th Pillar" depends on what the player is looking for in a story.  I wanted to explore the the mysteries of the force and hear out scholars/teachers like Kreia in Kotor 2 try to show me new perspectives. I wanted something new story-wise that I had not yet seen in Star Wars.  Instead, it felt like it was a Star Wars story with little to no ife in the world, characters, or the force.  The themepark ride was so strict that you never got the chance to get off and go down an unbeaten path.  You are just a heroic guy/gal that picks up a weapon, go to point A, and kills rats/stops the bad guy.  Plenty of MMOs do this, but (1) its the Kotor series, which in my opinion warrants more and (2) Bioware never really let's you go off the rails. 

     

     I wish Bioware tried to make the characters unique in the story by doing something different than the rest of the galaxy.  For instance, at times in Mass Effect you went against the logic and opinion of the galazy and did you own thing (sometimes lol).  In TOR you are just part of this all consuming logic of the universe that is never question and never broken for something different.  You get blue points or red points.   

  • cutthecrapcutthecrap nobusinessofyoursPosts: 600Member

    Originally posted by Yamota

    Now if on the other hand the story, and the outcome of which, somehow did affect the persistant world which you share with others I could agree that it would be the fourth pillar. Yet it does not, in SW:TOR, and not sure if at all possible in an MMORPG setting. And more importantly why are dev. created stories the fourth pillar? In an MMORPG it should be player created stories which are important and drives people to play the game and seek fame.

    Because classic questing or mob grinding can be even more tedious for leveling, and that is the alternative. You might dislike story based questing, but to many it's a more entertaining means of leveling your character than mob grinding or classic textwall questing is. I notice how people who criticise story based questing never talk about that it's an alternative for even a more tedious form of leveling that it's intended a replacement for, like classic questing and mob grinding.

    In short, if you dislike leveling with a more extensive story to it, I don't see how you can defend mob grinding or classic questing as better.

  • achesomaachesoma Portland, ORPosts: 1,000Member Uncommon

    Honestly, I really felt the stories were very subpar, especially seeing what BW was capable of in the past.  And I considered myself a pretty big BW fanboi.  Not to mention, all the story in the world can't help mediocre and dated gameplay mechanics.  Doing all the same kill and retrieve quests from planet to planet is beyond tedious.  Everything I did in SWTOR I just felt "been there, done that" the whole time.  Story is just icing on the cake.  Only there is no cake and the icing isn't that good. 

    image

  • CujoSWAoACujoSWAoA Nooo, AKPosts: 1,781Member

    Originally posted by RefMinor

    Originally posted by arieste

    Originally posted by RefMinor


    Originally posted by CujoSWAoA

    MikeB you already listed this game as your 10th favorite Star Wars game of all time.

    Which just in itself proves that you've no idea what a good Star Wars game even is.

     

    And there are only 8 SW games :D

    for real?  i'm not arguing, just trying to actually count.. let's see...

     

    Rebel Assault

    Rebel Assault 2

    Rebellion

    Dark Forces

    Jedi Knight

    Jedi Knight 2

    KOTOR

    KOTOR2

    SWG

    X-Wing

    Tie-Fighter

    X vs TF

    TOR

    The Force Unleashed

    The Force Unleashed 2

    uhm..there was another RTS one that i forget the name of... i think there are definitely more than 8 PC ones... 

     

    i probably missed a few...

     

    Then it's the 16+a few+2th best SW game ever made. :D

    Don't forget the complete list of all games that I put up for your education, buddy.

    I mean, I want you to be a little more educated there, buddy.

  • ignore_meignore_me Apple Valley, CAPosts: 1,987Member

    Originally posted by cutthecrap

    Originally posted by Yamota



    Now if on the other hand the story, and the outcome of which, somehow did affect the persistant world which you share with others I could agree that it would be the fourth pillar. Yet it does not, in SW:TOR, and not sure if at all possible in an MMORPG setting. And more importantly why are dev. created stories the fourth pillar? In an MMORPG it should be player created stories which are important and drives people to play the game and seek fame.

    Because classic questing or mob grinding can be even more tedious for leveling, and that is the alternative. You might dislike story based questing, but to many it's a more entertaining means of leveling your character than mob grinding or classic textwall questing is. I notice how people who criticise story based questing never talk about that it's an alternative for even a more tedious form of leveling that it's intended a replacement for, like classic questing and mob grinding.

    In short, if you dislike leveling with a more extensive story to it, I don't see how you can defend mob grinding or classic questing as better.

    I agree that it's better for leveling (at least the first time through), but it defines your experience to the exclusion of other possibilities. So it's a bit of a two way street. With mob grinding and textwall it was so not about you that it was boring, but also didn't put you in a mold. Proof that the leveling is entertaining is the reaction that happened when the story hose got cut off at level 50. Then you had a "classic" situation but with few classes, few choices of activities, low population (due to server structure because of engine performance), and no ability to see or effect any change in the static worlds.

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • ignore_meignore_me Apple Valley, CAPosts: 1,987Member

    Originally posted by CujoSWAoA

    Originally posted by RefMinor


    Originally posted by arieste


    Originally posted by RefMinor


    Originally posted by CujoSWAoA

    MikeB you already listed this game as your 10th favorite Star Wars game of all time.

    Which just in itself proves that you've no idea what a good Star Wars game even is.

     

    And there are only 8 SW games :D

    for real?  i'm not arguing, just trying to actually count.. let's see...

     

    Rebel Assault

    Rebel Assault 2

    Rebellion

    Dark Forces

    Jedi Knight

    Jedi Knight 2

    KOTOR

    KOTOR2

    SWG

    X-Wing

    Tie-Fighter

    X vs TF

    TOR

    The Force Unleashed

    The Force Unleashed 2

    uhm..there was another RTS one that i forget the name of... i think there are definitely more than 8 PC ones... 

     

    i probably missed a few...

     

    Then it's the 16+a few+2th best SW game ever made. :D

    Don't forget the complete list of all games that I put up for your education, buddy.

    I mean, I want you to be a little more educated there, buddy.

    ^^ really getting his money's worth out of the word "Buddy"  add a /fingerpoke to the chest and it's perfect.

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • TuchakaTuchaka san diego, CAPosts: 468Member

    bottom line i have enjoyed the hell out of the story but ....it ends at 50 and sorry that's when i view mmo's as starting ya there is a bit of voice over dialogue with end game but you skip over it after the first time anyway so like the companions they are not very usefull at 50, and if bioware doesn't do something about that i think they are in trouble, hopefully 1.2 wil adress some of these issues but getting to 50 doesn't take long. I have high hopes for this MMO nothing is broken and unfixable but sorry the pricetag for what we got was too high it's not worth it and no one is gonna repeat it, sure your gonna see companies do 'more' voice over but spend that much money on a progression that ends at 50 what for ?

  • cutthecrapcutthecrap nobusinessofyoursPosts: 600Member

    Originally posted by ignore_me

    Originally posted by cutthecrap


    Originally posted by Yamota



    Now if on the other hand the story, and the outcome of which, somehow did affect the persistant world which you share with others I could agree that it would be the fourth pillar. Yet it does not, in SW:TOR, and not sure if at all possible in an MMORPG setting. And more importantly why are dev. created stories the fourth pillar? In an MMORPG it should be player created stories which are important and drives people to play the game and seek fame.

    Because classic questing or mob grinding can be even more tedious for leveling, and that is the alternative. You might dislike story based questing, but to many it's a more entertaining means of leveling your character than mob grinding or classic textwall questing is. I notice how people who criticise story based questing never talk about that it's an alternative for even a more tedious form of leveling that it's intended a replacement for, like classic questing and mob grinding.

    In short, if you dislike leveling with a more extensive story to it, I don't see how you can defend mob grinding or classic questing as better.

    I agree that it's better for leveling (at least the first time through), but it defines your experience to the exclusion of other possibilities. So it's a bit of a two way street. With mob grinding and textwall it was so not about you that it was boring, but also didn't put you in a mold. Proof that the leveling is entertaining is the reaction that happened when the story hose got cut off at level 50. Then you had a "classic" situation but with few classes, few choices of activities, low population (due to server structure because of engine performance), and no ability to see or effect any change in the static worlds.

    Then the issue that some people have - and some in this thread have already done so correctly - shouldn't be with the story questing like seen in SWTOR, but with other gaming features that aren't implemented on the same level of quality fun as the story questing can be. The cold shower seems to hit for many not while doing the story heavy leveling, but when it ends at level cap and is replaced with features and gameplay that's simply less fun.

  • SkuzSkuz WorcesterPosts: 1,034Member Uncommon

    Personally I think "too much of a good thing" undermines and undervalues a "good idea" I think fully voicing each of the class-quests was a very smart move, voicing all of the others was not, similarly having fully voiced & non-voiced flashpoints and ops would work better than all voiced.

    Warhammer ruined the novelty of the Public-Quest system by spreading them all over the place, had they tied them into the story better & had fewer, but better/bigger ones in meaningful places it would have been more impactful & memorable on the player.

    Story is great, but it's prudent use that beats out pan-game implimentation in my view.

  • ignore_meignore_me Apple Valley, CAPosts: 1,987Member

    Originally posted by Exterminos

    bottom line i have enjoyed the hell out of the story but ....it ends at 50 and sorry that's when i view mmo's as starting ya there is a bit of voice over dialogue with end game but you skip over it after the first time anyway so like the companions they are not very usefull at 50, and if bioware doesn't do something about that i think they are in trouble, hopefully 1.2 wil adress some of these issues but getting to 50 doesn't take long. I have high hopes for this MMO nothing is broken and unfixable but sorry the pricetag for what we got was too high it's not worth it and no one is gonna repeat it, sure your gonna see companies do 'more' voice over but spend that much money on a progression that ends at 50 what for ?

    I have to wonder if there was a fire drill at Bioware when it came time to design endgame, and nobody came back into the building. What the hell did they think was going to happen when the VO content ended and your companion became an outfit hanger? Well it works for our console games so it should work for this.

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

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