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Similarities between the Charr and the Geth.

Dream_ChaserDream_Chaser BGPosts: 1,043Member

Think about it for a moment. It'll make you tweak.

So, this is another thread where everyone's going to think I've lost my marbles.

I love doing this, it's great.

But I was pondering on Legion whilst playing Mass Effect 2 again, and why I like him. He's adorable. But a lot of it came down to how very self-deterministic he was. The main faction of the Geth, not the heretics, want to 'progress by their own standards.' They believe that the individuality of their culture will bring new things to their technology that would be skipped if it was just 'given to them' on any level.

The heretics have the reapers, who're their false gods. (Seeee?) The heretics have lowered the galactic opinion of the Geth, and left people afraid of them. The start of the Geth storyline is essentially the Geth being created to serve, and they're fine with that, they do that. But eventually, one Geth starts asking interesting questions about things the Quarians felt they shouldn't understand.

So the quarians go down the batshit xenophobic route and try to destroy their creations. The Geth fight back and win.

Of course, they're still hated by organics, and that's hard for them. Some of them turned to the reapers, the old gods. The old gods used subtle reprogramming techniques to swell their ranks amongst the Geth. (Seeee?) But like I said, not all Geth threw their lot in with that, some were more self-deterministic.

Now, look at how the Charr kill their gods and all that, and how the Geth end up fighting the Reapers, what Legion's loyalty mission is (undoing the damage done by reaper reprogramming), versus what Pyre has done.

Consider as well that both species have become highly organised, almost to an insectoid degree, just because they felt that they neded to in order to survive. Both feel that they need their organisation and interdependence on each other within their respective species in order to continue surviving, and as such they're kind of unsettled and even afraid of outside influence, because that could once again be their downfall.

And both races have suffered because of the xenophobia of outside sources. The Ascalonians and the human gods in Guild Wars, and the Quarian creators in Mass Effect. Both races have been screwed over, too, with promises of strength and power in exchange for obsequious servitude.

Now, when I look at the Geth I can't help but see the Charr, and vice versa.

Another element where they match is--and I've covered this a little--their self-determination. The Charr refuse to rely on magic like the asura, because they feel that only through their own means can they truly discover the secrets of the Universe. The Geth refuse to use Reaper-tech, because the Geth believe that by adopting the technology of another, their society is shaped by the technology they're given.

One interesting point was made by Legion: "We provided you with the Mass Effect relays. The relays are our technology. And through their use, your society evolves and shapes itself how we please."

There's a certain amount of prideful independence to both races, where they're absolutely going to find their own way in the Universe and no one is going to stop them. They'll happily co-exist if you'll stop trying to kill them, just don't try and stop them from evolving and going about things as they do, because they don't want to be ruled by tyrants of dictators, they want to shape their own destiny. Applies to Geth and Charr.

Both races have decided to eschew explorations into art and culture for the time being, with only mild forays into either, simply because there are so many constant threats trying to destroy them, and they want to be ready for whatever they have to face. But they could just as easily become protectors rather than enemies if one stops treating them as such.

And I could go on with the similarities, but I'll leave it at that.

It just fascinates me, though. Two different games, two different story evolutions which aren't influenced by each other because of their genres, and two of my favourite races who've turned out the same way. I always adored Legion, the Geth are awesome, and... when I started thinking about it, I started seeing the connections.

I just thought that this might interest you as much as it does me.

Or you might see it as irrelevant spam.

We shall see.

Edit: Oh!! And they were both the big bads of their respective first games. The Geth were the supposed evil of Mass Effect 1, and the Charr were the supposed evil of Guild Wars.

This continues to fascinate me.

Comments

  • DJJazzyDJJazzy louisville, COPosts: 2,053Member

    Originally posted by Dream_Chaser

    Think about it for a moment. It'll make you tweak.

    So, this is another thread where everyone's going to think I've lost my marbles.

    You've lost your marbles

  • romanator0romanator0 Glendora, CAPosts: 2,382Member

    I dont' want to sound rude or mean but your obsession with the Charr seems borderline unhealthy.

    image

  • DJJazzyDJJazzy louisville, COPosts: 2,053Member

    Well Charr are badass, nothing wrong with some Charr obsession. 

  • RoybeRoybe Star, NCPosts: 420Member

    For literary minded people, comparing and contrasting works of fiction is age old, varied, and informative about human nature.  This is actually one of my reasons for playing games, I love lore.  Whether it's the lore behind the GW universe, the Unreal Universe, P&P D&D, or any number of other games I've played. I can agree with you completely.

     

  • Dream_ChaserDream_Chaser BGPosts: 1,043Member

    Originally posted by romanator0

    I dont' want to sound rude or mean but your obsession with the Charr seems borderline unhealthy.

    You've often attacked my interest in the Charr. If you're going to do this, then I have to question your motivations. Did you have a crush on Gwen or something?

  • Dream_ChaserDream_Chaser BGPosts: 1,043Member

    Originally posted by Roybe

    For literary minded people, comparing and contrasting works of fiction is age old, varied, and informative about human nature.  This is actually one of my reasons for playing games, I love lore.  Whether it's the lore behind the GW universe, the Unreal Universe, P&P D&D, or any number of other games I've played. I can agree with you completely.

    Thank you!

    I love lore too. It's a huge interest for me. I get caught up in it, and the more unusual it is, the more enthralled I become.

    I've just as much interest in the Geth as I do the Charr, but then I also like the lore behind the Krogans too.

    And once you're familiar with lore, comparing and contrasting is a fun past-time.

    Edit: I've been doing this for a long time. There have been a few highlights. I could go on about struggles between the Bharo and the D'ni (what remains of them), or the mysteries of the Orz, or the Khajiit in Elder Scrolls and their odd ties to moon phases.

    From the earliest days of videogaming, I've always been drawn to the stranger stuff.

    I love musing upon them. The closer to base human something is, the easier it is to figure out. The further away it is, the more there is to fill in, to understand.

  • DJJazzyDJJazzy louisville, COPosts: 2,053Member

    It is fun. 

    I just don't see much in the comparison of the Charr and the Geth. 

  • JrogalskJrogalsk Hoboken, NJPosts: 34Member

    Dear Dream_Chaser,

    I alway enjoy the posts that you take the time to write. They are written brilliantly and they actually make me want to sit down and read the whole OP. While I do not agree with all of your crazy views, I do not think you have lost your marbles. What you say makes sense, and I agree that there are similarities between geth and char, maybe not enough to make a big deal out of it, but enough to kind of stir your brain. One thing I dwell on is that basically everyone fights the geth, while in GW1, everyone fights the char. It probably wasn't bioware's or ArenaNet's intention to have them be so similar, but it is cool to think about.

    image

  • Dream_ChaserDream_Chaser BGPosts: 1,043Member

    Originally posted by cyress8

     




    Originally posted by romanator0

    I dont' want to sound rude or mean but your obsession with the Charr seems borderline unhealthy.






    Charr are just that badass. They even have cowtapults and charrzookas. :D

    I wonder about that. I'd really love to hear the story behind the 'cowapult.' I wonder if there's a Charr who was driven over the edge by a 'cow' (implying possibly a minotaur, yes) for some reason and vowed to get his revenge by designing cow-related weaponry. Or perhaps a crazy conspiracist fellow who spends most of his time peeking at cows in pastures, thinking about how they must be plotting how to overthrow the Charr leadership and take over the Citadel, leading to zany plans to thin their ranks.

  • Dream_ChaserDream_Chaser BGPosts: 1,043Member

    Originally posted by DJJazzy

    It is fun. 

    I just don't see much in the comparison of the Charr and the Geth. 

    Not quite as easy to see unless you look at the bigger picture.



    • They were both the big bads in their respective first games.


    • They both suffered because of the xenophobia of others. (Ascalonians/Quarians.)


    • They were both taken advantage of by 'gods.' (Titans/Reapers.)


    • They both decided that determining their own destiny was more important than having 'gods.'


    • They both feel that they should independently find their own evolutionary path, unaided.


    • They both have a highly organised military structure.


    • They both had factions who were for and against false gods.


    • They both had a figurehead for the 'no gods' faction. (Pyre Fierceshot/Legion.)


    • They're both either fighting or have fought against their gods for their freedom.


    And I could go on. But see? Lots of similarities!

  • DJJazzyDJJazzy louisville, COPosts: 2,053Member

    Well some of those are a stretch. 

    About their structure, well the Geth are a hive mind. The Charr are fairly structured (much more so than the Norn for example) but I think just because they are organized doesn't mean they have that really in common with the Geth. In that respect, the Geth are more like the Skritt.

  • Dream_ChaserDream_Chaser BGPosts: 1,043Member

    Originally posted by DJJazzy

    Well some of those are a stretch. 

    About their structure, well the Geth are a hive mind. The Charr are fairly structured (much more so than the Norn for example) but I think just because they are organized doesn't mean they have that really in common with the Geth. In that respect, the Geth are more like the Skritt.

    Well, that was bulletpointed. I explained more in the OP.

    See, in the lore of the Geth, they weren't always as they are now. They were all like Legion - lots of mobile platforms running thousands of programs. The Geth you fight are essentially 'war platforms.' They have only about 100 programs each, and they get more intelligent in proximity to each other.

    Thus, the war with the Quarians (because of that xenophobia) forced them to become more hivelike and organised. And likewise, it appears that the Charr have only become more organised over time because of their exposure to war. I'm not sure if either wants war - but the point is is that both are going to survive.

    One commonality you find in Geth and Charr lore is we'll be the last ones standing.

    Legion frequently talks about how the survival of his species matters to him, and how the Geth aren't going to just roll over and die becasue organics want to kill them. They are interested in helping, but they won't just 'give up' because those who'd declare war on tehm want them to. Whereas with the Charr, you find that even before the treaty was struck, the leader of the Iron Legion, Smodur the Unflinching, was willing to let anyone of any race into the Black Citadel 'providing they proved their worth to the Charr.'

    Both Charr and Geth are willing to cooperate, it's just that people seem to have a vested interest in killing them, and that's changed Charr and Geth alike - made them more organised.

    ---

    Edit: This may end up being one of those things where I'm seeing it because of my familiarity with the lore of both. If you're missing pieces, like knowing that the Geth were originally different before the Geth-Quarian war, then no, what I'm saying isn't going to make a lot of sense.

    I do worry about things like that when I air thoughts like these. I read a lot of lore. It's a passion of mine. So I tend to know a lot about the topics I speak of.

    ---

    Edit: In fact, Legion is interesting.

    See, Legion exists because the Geth wanted to try to get the organics to not kill them again. They tried that for a while with the Quarians, but it didn't work. And it was either fight or die. Much like the Charr with the Ascalonians.

    As I said - this changed them.

    But what you see with Legion is what you see with the Charr in Guild Wars 2. They're changing their attitudes slightly in order to believe that perhaps coexistence is finally possible. So Smodur lets people into the Citadel, and the Geth create Legion. Legion is like the original Geth, he has face-plates to convey expression, and an organic voice (over audio). These are things that they'd removed from Geth models during the Geth-Quarian war because they simply didn't need them.

    Their communication is digital, so they became more efficient. More like a hive-mind, yes. More organised.

    But yes - originally the Geth were designed with these features, so they'd appear more 'organic' to the Quarians, who created them. It's interesting to see those features back on Legion.

    A lot of why they're doing this is because in the Mass Effect Universe, you have Shepard who (as a paragon) is fairly open-minded and an AI supporter, and you have AI support groups popping up. And in Guild Wars 2, you have organisations like The Vigil who're trying to broker a peace between the races.

    There are a lot of interesting parallels.

  • DJJazzyDJJazzy louisville, COPosts: 2,053Member

    Well, you certainly have followed the Geth lore. They always struck me as the ME version of the Borg, without the assimilation. 

    About the Charr, I think they were always war like.

  • Dream_ChaserDream_Chaser BGPosts: 1,043Member

    Originally posted by DJJazzy

    Well, you certainly have followed the Geth lore. They always struck me as the ME version of the Borg, without the assimilation. 

    About the Charr, I think they were always war like.

    Not according to the lore. They lived peacefully before the incursions from the Forsaken and humankind.

    The thing is is that when the humans originally invaded, they weren't prepared. So the humans actually made a good push into Charr land - killing women and children alike, because the Charr were 'mindless beasts.' (Much like the Geth were just 'machines' and 'tools' to the Quarians.)

    They had to really get their act together and organise. They made a massive push and they almost managed to reclaim their land, but you know how that story goes. (God blessed human assassin decapitates their leadership, plunges them into chaos, and so on.)

    But the lore says that they were pretty much living peacefully pre-Forsaken/Human incursions.

    ---

    Edit: This isn't to say the Charr weren't feral and brutal, they were. But warlike implies something else. I mean, they did have a lot of in-fighting going on, and their odd skirmishes, and they were pretty bestial. But eventually they figure dthat out thanks to the Khan-Ur.

    Point is though is that warlike implies that they had a sense of war. But with whom? Before the Forsaken, the Charr were the dominant species. So there was no one for them to really war with.

  • DJJazzyDJJazzy louisville, COPosts: 2,053Member

    Hmm, that is different the lore I read about the Charr. From the Ecology of the Charr in the wiki it says they were filled with rage and had a primal drive to dominate and control. Doesn't sound very peaceful to me ;p

    PS: the Forgotten, not forsaken 

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,915Member Uncommon

    You could make such a comparison to the many slave nations of the old world, especially at the height of societies like Rome. Just one of hundreds of classic archetypes used throughout the centuries in stories of every kind. So in a round about way,  yes they are similar.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • starstar Seattle, WAPosts: 1,101Member
    Good post (as always), but uh... That quote 'we provides you with the mass relays....' is from Sovereign, not Legion.

    image

  • mazutmazut SofiaPosts: 886Member Uncommon

    In some videos Charr with armor and horns really look like the wow cow race. The sillhouette is similar, but when you remove the armor its very different beneath.

  • ariboersmaariboersma Yankton, SDPosts: 1,802Member

    I see more similarities to the Borg than the Charr =P but I do see your point I just think its very stretched.

    image

  • MorbidCurioMorbidCurio Singer Island, FLPosts: 127Member

    Originally posted by romanator0

    I dont' want to sound rude or mean but your obsession with the Charr seems borderline unhealthy.

     

    I don't know why the OP just assumes everybody knows everything about the Geth and Char. 

    Though I don't really know why I clicked this thread.

    Sleepy time.

  • Shroom_MageShroom_Mage Lafayette, LAPosts: 863Member


    Originally posted by Dream_Chaser

    Not quite as easy to see unless you look at the bigger picture.
    They were both the big bads in their respective first games.They both suffered because of the xenophobia of others. (Ascalonians/Quarians.)They were both taken advantage of by 'gods.' (Titans/Reapers.)They both decided that determining their own destiny was more important than having 'gods.'They both feel that they should independently find their own evolutionary path, unaided.They both have a highly organised military structure.They both had factions who were for and against false gods.They both had a figurehead for the 'no gods' faction. (Pyre Fierceshot/Legion.)They're both either fighting or have fought against their gods for their freedom.
    And I could go on. But see? Lots of similarities!


    Welcome to fiction. We can say the same thing about Warcraft orcs.

    • They were the big bads in their first game.
    • They suffered because of the xenophobia of others. (Humans and Night Elves.)
    • They were taken advantage of by 'gods.' (The Burning Legion.)
    • They decided that determining their own destiny was more important than having 'gods.'
    • They feel that they should independently find their own evolutionary path, unaided. (Orcs don't really have a rigid military structure, but neither do the geth.)
    • They had factions who were for and against false gods.
    • They had a figurehead for the 'no gods' faction. (Thrall.)
    • They're either fighting or have fought against their gods for their freedom.
    We can do this all day. It's a ridiculously common trope.

    "Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." -Dr. Seuss

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