Can't believe I read all that, but very good observations above post. (@Mustupha)
I believe the main issue here is that these internet tough guys are blurring the line between in-game behavior, and what you should do in public. Let me throw out an example;
If one of these guys were to mouth off at a rival while *at* the fanfest, only to be reminded that he is now within strangling distance, his reaction would be "calm down, it just a game, tard!"... though, it stopped being a game once you walked away from the PC.
It's like they feel secure enough with their buddies being present to carry the weight of an asshole with them wherever they go, and the kind of actions made by this Mitanni guy are enough to get him shitcanned from whatever real job he may have. Though, I highly doubt any GS higher-up actually works. The whole organization is a pyramid scheme.
Walls of text are what I do. I realize few read them, but it's always nice to see a couple do from time to time. Thanks.
RE: your post... yeah, that's what I mean. Online hazing/trolling/whatever is all well and good, but the whole "in the flesh" nature of what happened here is clearly over the line. I believe it also showcases a real danger with any competitive online environment where harassment is normal. We're all living on borrowed time if this kind of stuff keeps happening. I hate "slippery slope" arguments, but I still feel we're only a few suicides away from stuff like this leading to an end to the anonymity parade.
@Nilenya -- I generally agree with what you are saying (despite what I said in the mini-novella), but to chalk up his massive ego to too much booze ignores that his comments came from the inclusion of the complaints of the miner in his slides. Even if he was drunk when he made that slide, which I doubt he was, it still shows forethought and a premeditated willingness to mock the miner's suicide comments publicly. The actual "if you want him to kill himself, here's his name...." stuff he said as an afterthought was likely booze + too much ego, but I think certain topics are just off limits for public ridicule (another player mentioning depressions/suicide being one of them, even if that other player is a lamer too).
its basicly a bunch of drunk people being asshats. If you want to take a guy wearing a wizards hat and taking jagershots seriously, thats honestly your own damn problem aswell.
Thats my subjective opinion.
He was there representing his alliance, not representing CCP as CSM chairman and even then the CSM chairman does not represent CCP in any OFFICIAL sense, which is all that matters really. What you are saying is your subjective view on the CSM and I dont see why CCP should react to that.
Then it's CCPs fault that a live stream let all that juicy goodness out, which can be construed as such.
This is the kind of stuff that American news channels hunger for. It's only a single stretch away to being compared to schoolyard bullying, teen suicide, and surely at some point; teenage pregnancy. Don't question why, it's just how fearmongering and hot topics work.
It will backfire for CCP... shit... it already is.
Hey someone making sense! Yeah the media will jump at it like sharks and represent it on par with facebook bullying, suicides and highschools shootings etc etc. Which is bullshit, but then people love this shite because it feeds their prejudice about videogames and violence. WootWoot, all aboard the outrage train. Great.
This guy should be permabanned from the game, IMO. Publicly calling upon others to goad a potentially suicidal man into killing himself is completely unacceptable, even if the whole thing is just an elaborate troll (which is probably the case). CCP needs to set an example and show their playerbase that while trash talk is fine, there is definitely a line which shouldn't be crossed.
Online game companies also need to start self-regulating this kind of thing, or else the government will step in... and that is never a good thing.
its basicly a bunch of drunk people being asshats. If you want to take a guy wearing a wizards hat and taking jagershots seriously, thats honestly your own damn problem aswell.
Thats my subjective opinion.
He was there representing his alliance, not representing CCP as CSM chairman and even then the CSM chairman does not represent CCP in any OFFICIAL sense, which is all that matters really. What you are saying is your subjective view on the CSM and I dont see why CCP should react to that.
Then it's CCPs fault that a live stream let all that juicy goodness out, which can be construed as such.
This is the kind of stuff that American news channels hunger for. It's only a single stretch away to being compared to schoolyard bullying, teen suicide, and surely at some point; teenage pregnancy. Don't question why, it's just how fearmongering and hot topics work.
It will backfire for CCP... shit... it already is.
Hey someone making sense! Yeah the media will jump at it like sharks and represent it on par with facebook bullying, suicides and highschools shootings etc etc. Which is bullshit, but then people love this shite because it feeds their prejudice about videogames and violence. WootWoot, all aboard the outrage train. Great.
^This x's 9001...
As dumb as it is, it only takes something like this for a bunch of clueless politicians and "concerned parents" to start beating the drum for "more regulations" this, "greater penalties" that....
I'm old enough to remember when people would kill themselves and it was attributed to Ozzy (or was it Alice Cooper?) and they did it because, supposedly, they had been listening to "satanic" heavy metal/rock music... and I remember when the public freaked out after NWA's "F*ck the Police" gained national notoriety... the result? A bunch of clueless politicians (Al Gore being one of them) took advantage of the free publicity and made a bunch of ridiculous speeches demanding more regulation for the recording industry (and even supported censoring lyrics/music).
Fortunately, the recording industry convinced the politicians and public that they would police themselves and we got the joke of an "explicit lyrics" label on tapes and CDs (these were always the ones you wanted to buy as a young person, of course). This is the same reason we have ratings on games (outrage over GTA in particular can be thanked for that stupid development).
Up until now, it has amounted to little more than stupid little labels and a (sometimes) minor inconvenience for younger gamers who are trying to buy a MA (17+) game. With the way the media works now, though (and the way videos can go viral), the potential fallout is much greater than warning labels and minor inconveniences. Stuff like Mittani's stupid comments are just another example that clueless politicians and moralizing nuts like Nancy Grace can point to as they scream "VIDEO GAMES AND THE INTERNETS NEED TO BE REGULATED MORE HARSHLY!!!"
This guy should be permabanned from the game, IMO. Publicly calling upon others to goad a potentially suicidal man into killing himself is completely unacceptable, even if the whole thing is just an elaborate troll (which is probably the case). CCP needs to set an example and show their playerbase that while trash talk is fine, there is definitely a line which shouldn't be crossed.
Online game companies also need to start self-regulating this kind of thing, or else the government will step in... and that is never a good thing.
People should probably watch the video before getting the torches and pitchforks... also the government? which one?
This guy should be permabanned from the game, IMO. Publicly calling upon others to goad a potentially suicidal man into killing himself is completely unacceptable, even if the whole thing is just an elaborate troll (which is probably the case). CCP needs to set an example and show their playerbase that while trash talk is fine, there is definitely a line which shouldn't be crossed.
Online game companies also need to start self-regulating this kind of thing, or else the government will step in... and that is never a good thing.
Probably won't happen since he apologized, he literally heads the most powerful guild-bloc in the game with roughly 20,000 members (Goons + TESTies + Clusterfuck coalition alliances). They also control about a third of the player conquerable game map. Banning him or a large number of his followers (cuz of stupid shit they might do in supporting their CEO) could be seen as intervening in game politics which CCP doesn't like to do. So they might go thru the motions but at the end of the day they will slap him on the wrist.
As someone who voted for mittens, I just wanted to make sure everyone knows that he gets votes because he makes CCP continue to balance the game, not because he does stuff like this.
It is worth giving eve a go, the only problem is it is too hard to leave. Once a game gives you nearly limitless possibilities, it is hard to look back.
Eve scum is Eve scum. Just because he apologizes doesn't mean he's still not Eve scum. It's amazing how people will protest in-game about a "store with vanity items" but won't protest what this jerkwad did... pathetic...
The Mittani has written a full unreserved apology. This is good enough for me. He is deserving of redemption. Also, my alliance has just been set blue by the Goons. I don't really know why yet!
It seems the Mittani also sent this message to GS according to the Eve forum thread here, it's somewhere On page 100 and dotted about before then.
(2:46:27 PM) directorbot: Gentlegoons, I return from the land of ice, snow and stupid media hit pieces. Whilst I'm in transit back to Madison, please follow Vile Rat's lead on the political fallout. This is not a 2007 threadnaught and I will never abandon you so act like men. Jita will still burn! No matter what.
***This was a broadcast from the_mittani to all-all, replies are not monitored***
Hardly sounds like a mail from the truly contrite. Certainly the GS are out in force and unrepentant for 116 pages so far on that thread so I guess Vile Rat has whipped them up.
Eve scum is Eve scum. Just because he apologizes doesn't mean he's still not Eve scum. It's amazing how people will protest in-game about a "store with vanity items" but won't protest what this jerkwad did... pathetic...
Because most are old + wise enough to see it as a joke, and actually saw the video before deciding.
EVE's community has some of the smartest playerbase in any game, go look at the websites/programs that have been built to complement this game. Yes theres the people who use the game and its rules to act like kids and redicule other players in-game thats what happens everyday its part of this game and what gives out community an edge, this plus the difficulty of actually starting the game makes us a very unique community that outisders just do not get, we have the points which we want to riot about. I personally didnt like the small part of the community having a hub-ub about the in-game store, however it did not make me dislike the community anymore then I did 3 years ago when I started playing.
The Mitanni (the guy your on about) has done soo mcuh good stuff for this game, that I believe that if he was forced off or even stepped down off the CSM that we will go backwards and I honestly do not know how this game will end up, but with The Mitanni at the helm of the CSM, I can see myself playing this game 1, 2 and even 5 years from now.
Eve scum is Eve scum. Just because he apologizes doesn't mean he's still not Eve scum. It's amazing how people will protest in-game about a "store with vanity items" but won't protest what this jerkwad did... pathetic...
Because most are old + wise enough to see it as a joke, and actually saw the video before deciding.
EVE's community has some of the smartest playerbase in any game, go look at the websites/programs that have been built to complement this game. Yes theres the people who use the game and its rules to act like kids and redicule other players in-game thats what happens everyday its part of this game and what gives out community an edge, this plus the difficulty of actually starting the game makes us a very unique community that outisders just do not get, we have the points which we want to riot about. I personally didnt like the small part of the community having a hub-ub about the in-game store, however it did not make me dislike the community anymore then I did 3 years ago when I started playing.
The Mitanni (the guy your on about) has done soo mcuh good stuff for this game, that I believe that if he was forced off or even stepped down off the CSM that we will go backwards and I honestly do not know how this game will end up, but with The Mitanni at the helm of the CSM, I can see myself playing this game 1, 2 and even 5 years from now.
Step Up and Step Down needs to be the message going out to the Mittani.
It's pretty clear that the player he's talking about has other issues. If you're able to become that upset because of a game, it's not anyone's fault but your own.
It's pretty clear that the player he's talking about has other issues. If you're able to become that upset because of a game, it's not anyone's fault but your own.
That otehr person's problems are his own and not someone else's to decide how and what to do with them.
Honestly, the most appropriate response while remaining in character would have been to respond..
"I ain't your therepist" But even that should be kept in game.
It's pretty clear that the player he's talking about has other issues. If you're able to become that upset because of a game, it's not anyone's fault but your own.
And so using a public platform to call for people to harass someone with metal health issues to death is justifiable under those circumstances?
It's pretty clear that the player he's talking about has other issues. If you're able to become that upset because of a game, it's not anyone's fault but your own.
That otehr person's problems are his own and not someone else's to decide how and what to do with them.
That other person has made a statement that he does not care about what was said and that he has never had suicidal thoughts. It was simply rage from being ganked in his mining ship
It's pretty clear that the player he's talking about has other issues. If you're able to become that upset because of a game, it's not anyone's fault but your own.
Reading it it looked like the guy in question was already having life issues, so this kinda pushed him over a line he may have crossed alone. Still it isnt right, in-game bullying cant be tolerated.
It's pretty clear that the player he's talking about has other issues. If you're able to become that upset because of a game, it's not anyone's fault but your own.
That otehr person's problems are his own and not someone else's to decide how and what to do with them.
That other person has made a statement that he does not care about what was said and that he has never had suicidal thoughts. It was simply rage from being ganked in his mining ship
And what would you say to down play massive public humiliation?
Edit: 1
Yes the other guy get's plenty of moron brownie points for trying to appeal personally to Mittani. Even I'd have expected some heartless reply.....But that's about it.
It's pretty clear that the player he's talking about has other issues. If you're able to become that upset because of a game, it's not anyone's fault but your own.
That otehr person's problems are his own and not someone else's to decide how and what to do with them.
That other person has made a statement that he does not care about what was said and that he has never had suicidal thoughts. It was simply rage from being ganked in his mining ship
And what would you say to down play massive public humiliation?
Well if this guy was soo pissed off about it he could have petitioned CCP, if this was to have happened then things would be different. However he did not so really people should stop jumping on the bandwagon
Im suprised he wasnt just banned outright for saying that stuff on a live broadcast. Or was he banned, I dont read much into Eve News?
No he wasnt banned, And I cannot see him ever being banned. He has not broken any rules
The rules he broke were clearly posted all over the place.
Then post them here for everyone else to see
1. You may not abuse, harass or threaten another player or authorized representative of CCP, including customer service personnel and volunteers. This includes, but is not limited to: petitioning with false information in an attempt to gain from it or have someone else suffer from it; sending excessive e-mails, EVE-mails or petitions; obstructing CCP Employees from doing their jobs; refusal to follow the instructions of a CCP Employee; or implying favoritism by a CCP Employee.
2. You may not use any abusive, defamatory, ethnically or racially offensive, harassing, harmful, hateful, obscene, offensive, sexually explicit, threatening or vulgar language. (Alternate spelling or partial masking of such words will be reprimanded in the same manner as the actual use of such words.)
3. You may not organize nor be a member of any corporation or group within EVE Online that is based on or advocates any anti-ethnic, anti-gay, anti-religious, racist, sexist or other hate-mongering philosophies
4. You may not use role-playing as an excuse to violate these rules. While EVE Online is a persistent world, fantasy role-playing game, the claim of role-playing is not an acceptable defense for anti-social behavior. Role-playing is encouraged, but not at the expense of other player. You may not create or participate in a corporation or group that habitually violates this policy.
5. You will report out-of-game issues regarding harassment, such as threatening phone calls or correspondence, to your local law enforcement officials or Internet provider. CCP will not reveal personal information about its subscribers to unauthorized individuals. We are not responsible for actions taken by our subscribers that occur outside the jurisdiction of our game servers or web site.
Well Rules 1 to 5 right at the top of the ToS would appear to cover most of the bases.
Comments
Walls of text are what I do. I realize few read them, but it's always nice to see a couple do from time to time. Thanks.
RE: your post... yeah, that's what I mean. Online hazing/trolling/whatever is all well and good, but the whole "in the flesh" nature of what happened here is clearly over the line. I believe it also showcases a real danger with any competitive online environment where harassment is normal. We're all living on borrowed time if this kind of stuff keeps happening. I hate "slippery slope" arguments, but I still feel we're only a few suicides away from stuff like this leading to an end to the anonymity parade.
@Nilenya -- I generally agree with what you are saying (despite what I said in the mini-novella), but to chalk up his massive ego to too much booze ignores that his comments came from the inclusion of the complaints of the miner in his slides. Even if he was drunk when he made that slide, which I doubt he was, it still shows forethought and a premeditated willingness to mock the miner's suicide comments publicly. The actual "if you want him to kill himself, here's his name...." stuff he said as an afterthought was likely booze + too much ego, but I think certain topics are just off limits for public ridicule (another player mentioning depressions/suicide being one of them, even if that other player is a lamer too).
Hey someone making sense! Yeah the media will jump at it like sharks and represent it on par with facebook bullying, suicides and highschools shootings etc etc. Which is bullshit, but then people love this shite because it feeds their prejudice about videogames and violence. WootWoot, all aboard the outrage train. Great.
This guy should be permabanned from the game, IMO. Publicly calling upon others to goad a potentially suicidal man into killing himself is completely unacceptable, even if the whole thing is just an elaborate troll (which is probably the case). CCP needs to set an example and show their playerbase that while trash talk is fine, there is definitely a line which shouldn't be crossed.
Online game companies also need to start self-regulating this kind of thing, or else the government will step in... and that is never a good thing.
^This x's 9001...
As dumb as it is, it only takes something like this for a bunch of clueless politicians and "concerned parents" to start beating the drum for "more regulations" this, "greater penalties" that....
I'm old enough to remember when people would kill themselves and it was attributed to Ozzy (or was it Alice Cooper?) and they did it because, supposedly, they had been listening to "satanic" heavy metal/rock music... and I remember when the public freaked out after NWA's "F*ck the Police" gained national notoriety... the result? A bunch of clueless politicians (Al Gore being one of them) took advantage of the free publicity and made a bunch of ridiculous speeches demanding more regulation for the recording industry (and even supported censoring lyrics/music).
Fortunately, the recording industry convinced the politicians and public that they would police themselves and we got the joke of an "explicit lyrics" label on tapes and CDs (these were always the ones you wanted to buy as a young person, of course). This is the same reason we have ratings on games (outrage over GTA in particular can be thanked for that stupid development).
Up until now, it has amounted to little more than stupid little labels and a (sometimes) minor inconvenience for younger gamers who are trying to buy a MA (17+) game. With the way the media works now, though (and the way videos can go viral), the potential fallout is much greater than warning labels and minor inconveniences. Stuff like Mittani's stupid comments are just another example that clueless politicians and moralizing nuts like Nancy Grace can point to as they scream "VIDEO GAMES AND THE INTERNETS NEED TO BE REGULATED MORE HARSHLY!!!"
People should probably watch the video before getting the torches and pitchforks... also the government? which one?
Um, the one that can't mind it's own business and likes to flex it's muscle in front of other ones.
Oh wait...
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Probably won't happen since he apologized, he literally heads the most powerful guild-bloc in the game with roughly 20,000 members (Goons + TESTies + Clusterfuck coalition alliances). They also control about a third of the player conquerable game map. Banning him or a large number of his followers (cuz of stupid shit they might do in supporting their CEO) could be seen as intervening in game politics which CCP doesn't like to do. So they might go thru the motions but at the end of the day they will slap him on the wrist.
The Mittani has written a full unreserved apology.
This is good enough for me. He is deserving of redemption.
Also, my alliance has just been set blue by the Goons. I don't really know why yet!
As someone who voted for mittens, I just wanted to make sure everyone knows that he gets votes because he makes CCP continue to balance the game, not because he does stuff like this.
It is worth giving eve a go, the only problem is it is too hard to leave. Once a game gives you nearly limitless possibilities, it is hard to look back.
It seems the Mittani also sent this message to GS according to the Eve forum thread here, it's somewhere On page 100 and dotted about before then.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=86980
(2:46:27 PM) directorbot: Gentlegoons, I return from the land of ice, snow and stupid media hit pieces. Whilst I'm in transit back to Madison, please follow Vile Rat's lead on the political fallout. This is not a 2007 threadnaught and I will never abandon you so act like men. Jita will still burn! No matter what.
***This was a broadcast from the_mittani to all-all, replies are not monitored***
Hardly sounds like a mail from the truly contrite. Certainly the GS are out in force and unrepentant for 116 pages so far on that thread so I guess Vile Rat has whipped them up.Because most are old + wise enough to see it as a joke, and actually saw the video before deciding.
EVE's community has some of the smartest playerbase in any game, go look at the websites/programs that have been built to complement this game. Yes theres the people who use the game and its rules to act like kids and redicule other players in-game thats what happens everyday its part of this game and what gives out community an edge, this plus the difficulty of actually starting the game makes us a very unique community that outisders just do not get, we have the points which we want to riot about. I personally didnt like the small part of the community having a hub-ub about the in-game store, however it did not make me dislike the community anymore then I did 3 years ago when I started playing.
The Mitanni (the guy your on about) has done soo mcuh good stuff for this game, that I believe that if he was forced off or even stepped down off the CSM that we will go backwards and I honestly do not know how this game will end up, but with The Mitanni at the helm of the CSM, I can see myself playing this game 1, 2 and even 5 years from now.
Because most are old + wise enough to see it as a joke, and actually saw the video before deciding.
EVE's community has some of the smartest playerbase in any game, go look at the websites/programs that have been built to complement this game. Yes theres the people who use the game and its rules to act like kids and redicule other players in-game thats what happens everyday its part of this game and what gives out community an edge, this plus the difficulty of actually starting the game makes us a very unique community that outisders just do not get, we have the points which we want to riot about. I personally didnt like the small part of the community having a hub-ub about the in-game store, however it did not make me dislike the community anymore then I did 3 years ago when I started playing.
The Mitanni (the guy your on about) has done soo mcuh good stuff for this game, that I believe that if he was forced off or even stepped down off the CSM that we will go backwards and I honestly do not know how this game will end up, but with The Mitanni at the helm of the CSM, I can see myself playing this game 1, 2 and even 5 years from now.
Step Up and Step Down needs to be the message going out to the Mittani.Im suprised he wasnt just banned outright for saying that stuff on a live broadcast. Or was he banned, I dont read much into Eve News?
No he wasnt banned, And I cannot see him ever being banned. He has not broken any rules
It's pretty clear that the player he's talking about has other issues. If you're able to become that upset because of a game, it's not anyone's fault but your own.
The rules he broke were clearly posted all over the place.
Then post them here for everyone else to see
That otehr person's problems are his own and not someone else's to decide how and what to do with them.
Honestly, the most appropriate response while remaining in character would have been to respond..
"I ain't your therepist" But even that should be kept in game.
And so using a public platform to call for people to harass someone with metal health issues to death is justifiable under those circumstances?That other person has made a statement that he does not care about what was said and that he has never had suicidal thoughts. It was simply rage from being ganked in his mining ship
Reading it it looked like the guy in question was already having life issues, so this kinda pushed him over a line he may have crossed alone. Still it isnt right, in-game bullying cant be tolerated.
And what would you say to down play massive public humiliation?
Edit: 1
Yes the other guy get's plenty of moron brownie points for trying to appeal personally to Mittani. Even I'd have expected some heartless reply.....But that's about it.
Not this.
Well if this guy was soo pissed off about it he could have petitioned CCP, if this was to have happened then things would be different. However he did not so really people should stop jumping on the bandwagon
No he wasnt banned, And I cannot see him ever being banned. He has not broken any rules
The rules he broke were clearly posted all over the place.
Then post them here for everyone else to see
1. You may not abuse, harass or threaten another player or authorized representative of CCP, including customer service personnel and volunteers. This includes, but is not limited to: petitioning with false information in an attempt to gain from it or have someone else suffer from it; sending excessive e-mails, EVE-mails or petitions; obstructing CCP Employees from doing their jobs; refusal to follow the instructions of a CCP Employee; or implying favoritism by a CCP Employee.
2. You may not use any abusive, defamatory, ethnically or racially offensive, harassing, harmful, hateful, obscene, offensive, sexually explicit, threatening or vulgar language. (Alternate spelling or partial masking of such words will be reprimanded in the same manner as the actual use of such words.)
3. You may not organize nor be a member of any corporation or group within EVE Online that is based on or advocates any anti-ethnic, anti-gay, anti-religious, racist, sexist or other hate-mongering philosophies
4. You may not use role-playing as an excuse to violate these rules. While EVE Online is a persistent world, fantasy role-playing game, the claim of role-playing is not an acceptable defense for anti-social behavior. Role-playing is encouraged, but not at the expense of other player. You may not create or participate in a corporation or group that habitually violates this policy.
5. You will report out-of-game issues regarding harassment, such as threatening phone calls or correspondence, to your local law enforcement officials or Internet provider. CCP will not reveal personal information about its subscribers to unauthorized individuals. We are not responsible for actions taken by our subscribers that occur outside the jurisdiction of our game servers or web site.
Well Rules 1 to 5 right at the top of the ToS would appear to cover most of the bases.