Every MMO in history has a perma death option built in on all servers for people who love it so much. just delete your character when you die. if you need more than this, it's not permadeath you want, its hurting other players you are seeking. since all characters in all MMO's in history DO allow you to delete your character when you die, making permadeath a supported feature truly would be primarily to delete other peoples characters against their will, and this WOULD lead to a decrease in player populations. prove me wrong.
The mechanics that both support and make reasonable permadeath play are not present in those games. They will kill your character in absurd ways with little or no warning because death is trivial. Things like mass aggro and only rewarding players who take stupid chances are commonplace. For permadeath to work it must be designed into a game from the ground up.
BTW permadeath games aren't my cup of tea.
if perma death games nerf death chances, then what is the point? it's would be like bragging that you survived a boxing match with a sleeping mike tyson
You hit Mike Tyson without waking him up. It's not about nerfing death chances it's about not making them purely arbitrary and your choices meaningless. In games where death is trivial there is little reason to be careful. In a permadeath game there is every reason to be careful.
death IS arbitrary and meaningless. to rearrange physics and consequences to somehow make death less likely to occur seems to also defeat whatever purpose is sought by providing the feature.
Horsefeathers. Death in the real world is arbitrary and meaningless. Arbitrary death in a game is a product of sloppy design. Did you ever see a grandmaster in a chess tournament randomly remove another's king because death is arbitrary and meaningless? It wouldn't be tolerated. The point isn't to make death less likely but more forseeable meaningful.
so, we are talking about competiton then? chess is about a winner, and nothing else. you cant display skill at chess without simultaneously displaying your ability to control your opponent. it is a brutal and unforgiving game in that way. there are no safeguards in chess against a superior player. he will kill you dead, and shame you while doing it.
is permadeath about competition? i dont really think so. i think it presents that illusion, but then it would have to be disigned to be little more than a shooter, or a platform style fighting game. never else will situations be suitably equal or fair enough to create the world you are describing.
stronger players with bathe in the blood of newbs, and it level or individual power is is designed to be irrelevant, than a zerger utopia will dominate.
That is a different argument, however niche and unpopular permadeath is, the rules need to be the same for both sides. Now we are just talking about implementation, I have no answer to that but do know for permadeath to work the whole game needs to be designed around that fact. You can't jut drop it on to a WoW like game.
Every MMO in history has a perma death option built in on all servers for people who love it so much.
just delete your character when you die. if you need more than this, it's not permadeath you want, its hurting other players you are seeking.
since all characters in all MMO's in history DO allow you to delete your character when you die, making permadeath a supported feature truly would be primarily to delete other peoples characters against their will, and this WOULD lead to a decrease in player populations.
prove me wrong.
The mechanics that both support and make reasonable permadeath play are not present in those games. They will kill your character in absurd ways with little or no warning because death is trivial. Things like mass aggro and only rewarding players who take stupid chances are commonplace. For permadeath to work it must be designed into a game from the ground up.
BTW permadeath games aren't my cup of tea.
if perma death games nerf death chances, then what is the point? it's would be like bragging that you survived a boxing match with a sleeping mike tyson
You hit Mike Tyson without waking him up. It's not about nerfing death chances it's about not making them purely arbitrary and your choices meaningless. In games where death is trivial there is little reason to be careful. In a permadeath game there is every reason to be careful.
death IS arbitrary and meaningless. to rearrange physics and consequences to somehow make death less likely to occur seems to also defeat whatever purpose is sought by providing the feature.
Horsefeathers. Death in the real world is arbitrary and meaningless. Arbitrary death in a game is a product of sloppy design. Did you ever see a grandmaster in a chess tournament randomly remove another's king because death is arbitrary and meaningless? It wouldn't be tolerated. The point isn't to make death less likely but more forseeable meaningful.
so, we are talking about competiton then? chess is about a winner, and nothing else. you cant display skill at chess without simultaneously displaying your ability to control your opponent. it is a brutal and unforgiving game in that way. there are no safeguards in chess against a superior player. he will kill you dead, and shame you while doing it.
is permadeath about competition? i dont really think so. i think it presents that illusion, but then it would have to be disigned to be little more than a shooter, or a platform style fighting game. never else will situations be suitably equal or fair enough to create the world you are describing.
stronger players with bathe in the blood of newbs, and it level or individual power is is designed to be irrelevant, than a zerger utopia will dominate.
That is a different argument, however niche and unpopular permadeath is, the rules need to be the same for both sides. Now we are just talking about implementation, I have no answer to that but do know for permadeath to work the whole game needs to be designed around that fact. You can't jut drop it on to a WoW like game.
we call the game you are referring to "First person shooters". this requires the addition and subtraction of so many mmo industry standards that the end product will have jumped genres, and no longer be considered "niche", beyond appealing to FPS players, who are pretty much everybody from time to time.
Every MMO in history has a perma death option built in on all servers for people who love it so much.
just delete your character when you die. if you need more than this, it's not permadeath you want, its hurting other players you are seeking.
since all characters in all MMO's in history DO allow you to delete your character when you die, making permadeath a supported feature truly would be primarily to delete other peoples characters against their will, and this WOULD lead to a decrease in player populations.
prove me wrong.
The mechanics that both support and make reasonable permadeath play are not present in those games. They will kill your character in absurd ways with little or no warning because death is trivial. Things like mass aggro and only rewarding players who take stupid chances are commonplace. For permadeath to work it must be designed into a game from the ground up.
BTW permadeath games aren't my cup of tea.
if perma death games nerf death chances, then what is the point? it's would be like bragging that you survived a boxing match with a sleeping mike tyson
You hit Mike Tyson without waking him up. It's not about nerfing death chances it's about not making them purely arbitrary and your choices meaningless. In games where death is trivial there is little reason to be careful. In a permadeath game there is every reason to be careful.
death IS arbitrary and meaningless. to rearrange physics and consequences to somehow make death less likely to occur seems to also defeat whatever purpose is sought by providing the feature.
Horsefeathers. Death in the real world is arbitrary and meaningless. Arbitrary death in a game is a product of sloppy design. Did you ever see a grandmaster in a chess tournament randomly remove another's king because death is arbitrary and meaningless? It wouldn't be tolerated. The point isn't to make death less likely but more forseeable meaningful.
so, we are talking about competiton then? chess is about a winner, and nothing else. you cant display skill at chess without simultaneously displaying your ability to control your opponent. it is a brutal and unforgiving game in that way. there are no safeguards in chess against a superior player. he will kill you dead, and shame you while doing it.
is permadeath about competition? i dont really think so. i think it presents that illusion, but then it would have to be disigned to be little more than a shooter, or a platform style fighting game. never else will situations be suitably equal or fair enough to create the world you are describing.
stronger players with bathe in the blood of newbs, and it level or individual power is is designed to be irrelevant, than a zerger utopia will dominate.
Every game is a competition even if only against the game itself. Clearly you're just going to keep throwing out irrelevancies in attempt to distract from your failed premise that a game designed around permadeath need not be anydifferent from one which is not. All the while proving with your very objections it must be. Read what you yourself have written. A permadeath game needs to prevent both zerging and excessive power disparities. That itself is fundamentally different from current non permadeath games.
then, what is achieved? realism will have been so thoroughly prevented by such herculian rebalancing. character and skill advancement must be prevented, in order to prevant combat dispairities that could lead to injustice. cooporation of unequal numbers must be prevented which essentially robs any reconizable purpose for the game being an MMO in the first place.
my point is that there is no way to balance perma death without creating some strange paradox of boring features. perhaps this might be attractive for a student to attempt, to test out some MMO theory, but mechanically it's just not practical.
if people want their characters to die after they lose a fight, delete them yourself. stop making the arguement that perma death is for anything other than the glee of killing lowbs who cant defend themselves, and would likely prefer to go on living, therebye making permadeath a feature synonomous with creating game stopping disappointment in non consenting players.
Every MMO in history has a perma death option built in on all servers for people who love it so much. just delete your character when you die. if you need more than this, it's not permadeath you want, its hurting other players you are seeking. since all characters in all MMO's in history DO allow you to delete your character when you die, making permadeath a supported feature truly would be primarily to delete other peoples characters against their will, and this WOULD lead to a decrease in player populations. prove me wrong.
The mechanics that both support and make reasonable permadeath play are not present in those games. They will kill your character in absurd ways with little or no warning because death is trivial. Things like mass aggro and only rewarding players who take stupid chances are commonplace. For permadeath to work it must be designed into a game from the ground up.
BTW permadeath games aren't my cup of tea.
if perma death games nerf death chances, then what is the point? it's would be like bragging that you survived a boxing match with a sleeping mike tyson
You hit Mike Tyson without waking him up. It's not about nerfing death chances it's about not making them purely arbitrary and your choices meaningless. In games where death is trivial there is little reason to be careful. In a permadeath game there is every reason to be careful.
death IS arbitrary and meaningless. to rearrange physics and consequences to somehow make death less likely to occur seems to also defeat whatever purpose is sought by providing the feature.
Horsefeathers. Death in the real world is arbitrary and meaningless. Arbitrary death in a game is a product of sloppy design. Did you ever see a grandmaster in a chess tournament randomly remove another's king because death is arbitrary and meaningless? It wouldn't be tolerated. The point isn't to make death less likely but more forseeable meaningful.
so, we are talking about competiton then? chess is about a winner, and nothing else. you cant display skill at chess without simultaneously displaying your ability to control your opponent. it is a brutal and unforgiving game in that way. there are no safeguards in chess against a superior player. he will kill you dead, and shame you while doing it.
is permadeath about competition? i dont really think so. i think it presents that illusion, but then it would have to be disigned to be little more than a shooter, or a platform style fighting game. never else will situations be suitably equal or fair enough to create the world you are describing.
stronger players with bathe in the blood of newbs, and it level or individual power is is designed to be irrelevant, than a zerger utopia will dominate.
That is a different argument, however niche and unpopular permadeath is, the rules need to be the same for both sides. Now we are just talking about implementation, I have no answer to that but do know for permadeath to work the whole game needs to be designed around that fact. You can't jut drop it on to a WoW like game.
we call the game you are referring to "First person shooters". this requires the addition and subtraction of so many mmo industry standards that the end product will have jumped genres, and no longer be considered "niche", beyond appealing to FPS players, who are pretty much everybody from time to time.
No, we are talking about permadeath in MMOs, it will be niche no argument there, but not a FPS where you expect to die and have no progression. It will not have many MMO industry standards but that is not such a bad thing for any MMO, and does not make it not an MMO. Rather than a uberniche kickstarter project Salem is being designed with permadeath and that is definitely designed as an MMO.
Every MMO in history has a perma death option built in on all servers for people who love it so much.
just delete your character when you die. if you need more than this, it's not permadeath you want, its hurting other players you are seeking.
since all characters in all MMO's in history DO allow you to delete your character when you die, making permadeath a supported feature truly would be primarily to delete other peoples characters against their will, and this WOULD lead to a decrease in player populations.
prove me wrong.
The mechanics that both support and make reasonable permadeath play are not present in those games. They will kill your character in absurd ways with little or no warning because death is trivial. Things like mass aggro and only rewarding players who take stupid chances are commonplace. For permadeath to work it must be designed into a game from the ground up.
BTW permadeath games aren't my cup of tea.
if perma death games nerf death chances, then what is the point? it's would be like bragging that you survived a boxing match with a sleeping mike tyson
You hit Mike Tyson without waking him up. It's not about nerfing death chances it's about not making them purely arbitrary and your choices meaningless. In games where death is trivial there is little reason to be careful. In a permadeath game there is every reason to be careful.
death IS arbitrary and meaningless. to rearrange physics and consequences to somehow make death less likely to occur seems to also defeat whatever purpose is sought by providing the feature.
Horsefeathers. Death in the real world is arbitrary and meaningless. Arbitrary death in a game is a product of sloppy design. Did you ever see a grandmaster in a chess tournament randomly remove another's king because death is arbitrary and meaningless? It wouldn't be tolerated. The point isn't to make death less likely but more forseeable meaningful.
so, we are talking about competiton then? chess is about a winner, and nothing else. you cant display skill at chess without simultaneously displaying your ability to control your opponent. it is a brutal and unforgiving game in that way. there are no safeguards in chess against a superior player. he will kill you dead, and shame you while doing it.
is permadeath about competition? i dont really think so. i think it presents that illusion, but then it would have to be disigned to be little more than a shooter, or a platform style fighting game. never else will situations be suitably equal or fair enough to create the world you are describing.
stronger players with bathe in the blood of newbs, and it level or individual power is is designed to be irrelevant, than a zerger utopia will dominate.
That is a different argument, however niche and unpopular permadeath is, the rules need to be the same for both sides. Now we are just talking about implementation, I have no answer to that but do know for permadeath to work the whole game needs to be designed around that fact. You can't jut drop it on to a WoW like game.
we call the game you are referring to "First person shooters". this requires the addition and subtraction of so many mmo industry standards that the end product will have jumped genres, and no longer be considered "niche", beyond appealing to FPS players, who are pretty much everybody from time to time.
No, we are talking about permadeath in MMOs, it will be niche no argument there, but not a FPS where you expect to die and have no progression. It will not have many MMO industry standards but that is not such a bad thing for any MMO, and does not make it not an MMO. Rather than a uberniche kickstarter project Salem is being designed with permadeath and that is definitely designed as an MMO.
im eager to see my opinion on perma death confirmed or denied by Salem.
im going to give it my all, so long as its fun and "works". but im expecting it implode, or have its perma death be eventually nerfed into oblivion.
all it will really take is one mega guild, somewhere in the world, getting in serious numbers and decide to just murder everyone, and that will be the end of the great "crafting MMO".
Every MMO in history has a perma death option built in on all servers for people who love it so much. just delete your character when you die. if you need more than this, it's not permadeath you want, its hurting other players you are seeking. since all characters in all MMO's in history DO allow you to delete your character when you die, making permadeath a supported feature truly would be primarily to delete other peoples characters against their will, and this WOULD lead to a decrease in player populations. prove me wrong.
The mechanics that both support and make reasonable permadeath play are not present in those games. They will kill your character in absurd ways with little or no warning because death is trivial. Things like mass aggro and only rewarding players who take stupid chances are commonplace. For permadeath to work it must be designed into a game from the ground up.
BTW permadeath games aren't my cup of tea.
if perma death games nerf death chances, then what is the point? it's would be like bragging that you survived a boxing match with a sleeping mike tyson
You hit Mike Tyson without waking him up. It's not about nerfing death chances it's about not making them purely arbitrary and your choices meaningless. In games where death is trivial there is little reason to be careful. In a permadeath game there is every reason to be careful.
death IS arbitrary and meaningless. to rearrange physics and consequences to somehow make death less likely to occur seems to also defeat whatever purpose is sought by providing the feature.
Horsefeathers. Death in the real world is arbitrary and meaningless. Arbitrary death in a game is a product of sloppy design. Did you ever see a grandmaster in a chess tournament randomly remove another's king because death is arbitrary and meaningless? It wouldn't be tolerated. The point isn't to make death less likely but more forseeable meaningful.
so, we are talking about competiton then? chess is about a winner, and nothing else. you cant display skill at chess without simultaneously displaying your ability to control your opponent. it is a brutal and unforgiving game in that way. there are no safeguards in chess against a superior player. he will kill you dead, and shame you while doing it.
is permadeath about competition? i dont really think so. i think it presents that illusion, but then it would have to be disigned to be little more than a shooter, or a platform style fighting game. never else will situations be suitably equal or fair enough to create the world you are describing.
stronger players with bathe in the blood of newbs, and it level or individual power is is designed to be irrelevant, than a zerger utopia will dominate.
That is a different argument, however niche and unpopular permadeath is, the rules need to be the same for both sides. Now we are just talking about implementation, I have no answer to that but do know for permadeath to work the whole game needs to be designed around that fact. You can't jut drop it on to a WoW like game.
we call the game you are referring to "First person shooters". this requires the addition and subtraction of so many mmo industry standards that the end product will have jumped genres, and no longer be considered "niche", beyond appealing to FPS players, who are pretty much everybody from time to time.
No, we are talking about permadeath in MMOs, it will be niche no argument there, but not a FPS where you expect to die and have no progression. It will not have many MMO industry standards but that is not such a bad thing for any MMO, and does not make it not an MMO. Rather than a uberniche kickstarter project Salem is being designed with permadeath and that is definitely designed as an MMO.
im eager to see my opinion on perma death confirmed or denied by Salem.
im going to give it my all, so long as its fun and "works". but im expecting it implode, or have its perma death be eventually nerfed into oblivion.
all it will really take is one mega guild, somewhere in the world, getting in serious numbers and decide to just murder everyone, and that will be the end of the great "crafting MMO".
It will be interesting to see how they try it, I have never tried a game with permadeath so I have signed up for the beta.
ive been following it for years. but there doesent seem to be much thought being put into the realities of permadeath, beyond an attempt to capture "realism".
as intriguing as this premise is, i just dont see it working, beyond a permanent murder mystery.
since theyve stated it will be totally open pvp and permadeath, and totally free to play, im expecting a never ending slaughter upon the docks where all characters begin their lives.
even if i end up not liking the game, ill prolly routinely make a lowb toon every now and then to just try to kill as many new players as i can before im taken down in a flurry or poorly crafted newb weapons.
A niche product is a product that is designed for a very specific subsection of an overall general market. It doesn't have much to do with the size of the niche audience itself.
It's cool that they are getting so much more money than their goal. I think it's entirely possible that this is a viable way for new games to be developed by independant developers. It's certainly better than getting professional investors provide the money. It's still a niche game though (sci-fi, perma-death).
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Some gamers will boycott a game if it has pd, but there are no gamers who would boycott for not having it.
This is pretty much the fundamental for game design (esp mmo's) nowadays, it's a numbers game and results in largely bland game play. But bland gaming for the largest crowd
----- The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
I've had and still have plenty of interests and hobbies that are very much a niche. Some of those most people don't get or find remotely appealing. Some of them are even hated upon by certain people (hey, I'm a furry - burn in hell furfag and all that LOL). I've learned over the years that it's best to not let those things bug me. It allows me to better enjoy those niche interests and also keeps me from becoming bitter and lash out at those who don't understand why I like a particular niche. Of course, it sucks a bit if something particular is so niche that there's little to no support for it and you go around craving it, but why should I rub it in someone's face while basically screaming "HA - I was right! Nyaaaah!" if it suddenly turns out that there might be some sort of support for it? That makes me no better than the rest of the haters.
As for permadeath - I still feel it's niche and always will be a niche. It's just not something the majority likes. Period. I don't see a problem with it being niche though. I'm sure it's something that can be pulled off and I'm sure there's enough people to support it being pulled off. The world is pretty darn big and getting pretty crowded. I could even see it grow over time and become less of a niche. Just don't expect 10+ million people wanting to play on launch and investors wanting to put $200 million into it. But neither of that is really needed to make a good game. In fact, some of the better games I've been playing over the last couple of years have been pretty low-budget.
I'm a big ol' fluffy carewolf. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Permanent death is a relic that stayed with us from the coin popping arcade days. The idea was death was going to get us to spend more quarters and maximize profits of the arcade owner. It is by no means a fun game concept. You can make games that make you feel as shitty about dying without resorting to permanent death.
So many people want permanent death until they die. Then suddenly they are punching in walls
Basically this. Idiots cried FOR ZOMG SUPER HARDCORE PVP CONSEQUENCES AND CRAFTING THAT WAS SO LIKE ZOMG SUPER HARD ZOMGGGGGG....then they played Aion......
I always though people play games to escape from real life not bring all the problems of real life into the game.
risk vs reward in real life is extreemly high and the amount of work and risk is usually obscenly high compared to satisfying rewards, so yeah, I am not looking to replace that in my game.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
actually permadeath is a niche, because here's why, sure they have thousands of supporters however, when the game launches all of the bulk purchases from the REST of the community which makes up the bulk of ALL gaming communities is Casual Players. Very few casual players will actually enjoy permadeath, just like very few casual players enjoy geared pvp. Casual players aren't the loudest voices in forums however, when it comes down to the sales figures, we have the biggest influence. The Execs know this and have watched accounts drop off like flies on a hot piece of metal in the summer time because of things like this. It's THE reason why you will never see permadeath in most themepark mmo's.
Oh and disagreeing with you isn't hating on permadeath, it's simply disagreeing with you.
When it comes to MMORPG's, permadeath just isn't a compatible concept.
IMO, the single most defining characteristic about MMORPG's vs their single player counterparts is continuity and especially, character progression.
Now exactly what is progression? In my case, I believe it involves the actual power of the character, therefore I even question if GW2 is a proper MMORPG by the standard definition, because it appears character power is capped at a maximum level.
But even in GW2 on can make the argument that progression can be measured by the number of armor sets one collects, achievements that get completed, or PVP matches that are won.
Toss in true permadeath, and you basically are saying that all forms of progression are totally eliminated, it's as if you had never existed.
I suppose there's a small market of players that appeals to, but again, even if it was a large figure, it still wouldn't be a proper MMORPG w/o the defining element of progression, therefore you'd have to call it a different sort of game.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Permadeath can work, just look at EvE. But even in that game its due to players not managing their business properly. All you need to do is make sure you have a back up clone. Its like remembering to put gas in your car. So perma death usually doesnt happen.
In an RPG, its not often done like in platformers.
Besides wasnt this a single player game anyways? Guess that doesnt matter, and it looks kind of interesting, but it depends on the game design making permadeath work. If the design is good, it can work great. If not, it can break a game entirely in half all by itself.
EVE doesn't have permadeath.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Comments
The mechanics that both support and make reasonable permadeath play are not present in those games. They will kill your character in absurd ways with little or no warning because death is trivial. Things like mass aggro and only rewarding players who take stupid chances are commonplace. For permadeath to work it must be designed into a game from the ground up.
BTW permadeath games aren't my cup of tea.
if perma death games nerf death chances, then what is the point? it's would be like bragging that you survived a boxing match with a sleeping mike tyson
You hit Mike Tyson without waking him up. It's not about nerfing death chances it's about not making them purely arbitrary and your choices meaningless. In games where death is trivial there is little reason to be careful. In a permadeath game there is every reason to be careful.
death IS arbitrary and meaningless. to rearrange physics and consequences to somehow make death less likely to occur seems to also defeat whatever purpose is sought by providing the feature.
Horsefeathers. Death in the real world is arbitrary and meaningless. Arbitrary death in a game is a product of sloppy design. Did you ever see a grandmaster in a chess tournament randomly remove another's king because death is arbitrary and meaningless? It wouldn't be tolerated. The point isn't to make death less likely but more forseeable meaningful.
so, we are talking about competiton then? chess is about a winner, and nothing else. you cant display skill at chess without simultaneously displaying your ability to control your opponent. it is a brutal and unforgiving game in that way. there are no safeguards in chess against a superior player. he will kill you dead, and shame you while doing it.
is permadeath about competition? i dont really think so. i think it presents that illusion, but then it would have to be disigned to be little more than a shooter, or a platform style fighting game. never else will situations be suitably equal or fair enough to create the world you are describing.
stronger players with bathe in the blood of newbs, and it level or individual power is is designed to be irrelevant, than a zerger utopia will dominate.
That is a different argument, however niche and unpopular permadeath is, the rules need to be the same for both sides. Now we are just talking about implementation, I have no answer to that but do know for permadeath to work the whole game needs to be designed around that fact. You can't jut drop it on to a WoW like game.we call the game you are referring to "First person shooters". this requires the addition and subtraction of so many mmo industry standards that the end product will have jumped genres, and no longer be considered "niche", beyond appealing to FPS players, who are pretty much everybody from time to time.
7 thousand people back that game
hundreds of millions of MMO players in the world
yeah, this topic opened my eyes, permadeath is so NOT niche at all LMAO
then, what is achieved? realism will have been so thoroughly prevented by such herculian rebalancing. character and skill advancement must be prevented, in order to prevant combat dispairities that could lead to injustice. cooporation of unequal numbers must be prevented which essentially robs any reconizable purpose for the game being an MMO in the first place.
my point is that there is no way to balance perma death without creating some strange paradox of boring features. perhaps this might be attractive for a student to attempt, to test out some MMO theory, but mechanically it's just not practical.
if people want their characters to die after they lose a fight, delete them yourself. stop making the arguement that perma death is for anything other than the glee of killing lowbs who cant defend themselves, and would likely prefer to go on living, therebye making permadeath a feature synonomous with creating game stopping disappointment in non consenting players.
The mechanics that both support and make reasonable permadeath play are not present in those games. They will kill your character in absurd ways with little or no warning because death is trivial. Things like mass aggro and only rewarding players who take stupid chances are commonplace. For permadeath to work it must be designed into a game from the ground up.
BTW permadeath games aren't my cup of tea.
if perma death games nerf death chances, then what is the point? it's would be like bragging that you survived a boxing match with a sleeping mike tyson
You hit Mike Tyson without waking him up. It's not about nerfing death chances it's about not making them purely arbitrary and your choices meaningless. In games where death is trivial there is little reason to be careful. In a permadeath game there is every reason to be careful.
death IS arbitrary and meaningless. to rearrange physics and consequences to somehow make death less likely to occur seems to also defeat whatever purpose is sought by providing the feature.
Horsefeathers. Death in the real world is arbitrary and meaningless. Arbitrary death in a game is a product of sloppy design. Did you ever see a grandmaster in a chess tournament randomly remove another's king because death is arbitrary and meaningless? It wouldn't be tolerated. The point isn't to make death less likely but more forseeable meaningful.
so, we are talking about competiton then? chess is about a winner, and nothing else. you cant display skill at chess without simultaneously displaying your ability to control your opponent. it is a brutal and unforgiving game in that way. there are no safeguards in chess against a superior player. he will kill you dead, and shame you while doing it.
is permadeath about competition? i dont really think so. i think it presents that illusion, but then it would have to be disigned to be little more than a shooter, or a platform style fighting game. never else will situations be suitably equal or fair enough to create the world you are describing.
stronger players with bathe in the blood of newbs, and it level or individual power is is designed to be irrelevant, than a zerger utopia will dominate.
That is a different argument, however niche and unpopular permadeath is, the rules need to be the same for both sides. Now we are just talking about implementation, I have no answer to that but do know for permadeath to work the whole game needs to be designed around that fact. You can't jut drop it on to a WoW like game.we call the game you are referring to "First person shooters". this requires the addition and subtraction of so many mmo industry standards that the end product will have jumped genres, and no longer be considered "niche", beyond appealing to FPS players, who are pretty much everybody from time to time.
No, we are talking about permadeath in MMOs, it will be niche no argument there, but not a FPS where you expect to die and have no progression. It will not have many MMO industry standards but that is not such a bad thing for any MMO, and does not make it not an MMO. Rather than a uberniche kickstarter project Salem is being designed with permadeath and that is definitely designed as an MMO.im eager to see my opinion on perma death confirmed or denied by Salem.
im going to give it my all, so long as its fun and "works". but im expecting it implode, or have its perma death be eventually nerfed into oblivion.
all it will really take is one mega guild, somewhere in the world, getting in serious numbers and decide to just murder everyone, and that will be the end of the great "crafting MMO".
The mechanics that both support and make reasonable permadeath play are not present in those games. They will kill your character in absurd ways with little or no warning because death is trivial. Things like mass aggro and only rewarding players who take stupid chances are commonplace. For permadeath to work it must be designed into a game from the ground up.
BTW permadeath games aren't my cup of tea.
if perma death games nerf death chances, then what is the point? it's would be like bragging that you survived a boxing match with a sleeping mike tyson
You hit Mike Tyson without waking him up. It's not about nerfing death chances it's about not making them purely arbitrary and your choices meaningless. In games where death is trivial there is little reason to be careful. In a permadeath game there is every reason to be careful.
death IS arbitrary and meaningless. to rearrange physics and consequences to somehow make death less likely to occur seems to also defeat whatever purpose is sought by providing the feature.
Horsefeathers. Death in the real world is arbitrary and meaningless. Arbitrary death in a game is a product of sloppy design. Did you ever see a grandmaster in a chess tournament randomly remove another's king because death is arbitrary and meaningless? It wouldn't be tolerated. The point isn't to make death less likely but more forseeable meaningful.
so, we are talking about competiton then? chess is about a winner, and nothing else. you cant display skill at chess without simultaneously displaying your ability to control your opponent. it is a brutal and unforgiving game in that way. there are no safeguards in chess against a superior player. he will kill you dead, and shame you while doing it.
is permadeath about competition? i dont really think so. i think it presents that illusion, but then it would have to be disigned to be little more than a shooter, or a platform style fighting game. never else will situations be suitably equal or fair enough to create the world you are describing.
stronger players with bathe in the blood of newbs, and it level or individual power is is designed to be irrelevant, than a zerger utopia will dominate.
That is a different argument, however niche and unpopular permadeath is, the rules need to be the same for both sides. Now we are just talking about implementation, I have no answer to that but do know for permadeath to work the whole game needs to be designed around that fact. You can't jut drop it on to a WoW like game.we call the game you are referring to "First person shooters". this requires the addition and subtraction of so many mmo industry standards that the end product will have jumped genres, and no longer be considered "niche", beyond appealing to FPS players, who are pretty much everybody from time to time.
No, we are talking about permadeath in MMOs, it will be niche no argument there, but not a FPS where you expect to die and have no progression. It will not have many MMO industry standards but that is not such a bad thing for any MMO, and does not make it not an MMO. Rather than a uberniche kickstarter project Salem is being designed with permadeath and that is definitely designed as an MMO.im eager to see my opinion on perma death confirmed or denied by Salem.
im going to give it my all, so long as its fun and "works". but im expecting it implode, or have its perma death be eventually nerfed into oblivion.
all it will really take is one mega guild, somewhere in the world, getting in serious numbers and decide to just murder everyone, and that will be the end of the great "crafting MMO".
It will be interesting to see how they try it, I have never tried a game with permadeath so I have signed up for the beta.ive been following it for years. but there doesent seem to be much thought being put into the realities of permadeath, beyond an attempt to capture "realism".
as intriguing as this premise is, i just dont see it working, beyond a permanent murder mystery.
since theyve stated it will be totally open pvp and permadeath, and totally free to play, im expecting a never ending slaughter upon the docks where all characters begin their lives.
even if i end up not liking the game, ill prolly routinely make a lowb toon every now and then to just try to kill as many new players as i can before im taken down in a flurry or poorly crafted newb weapons.
A niche product is a product that is designed for a very specific subsection of an overall general market. It doesn't have much to do with the size of the niche audience itself.
It's cool that they are getting so much more money than their goal. I think it's entirely possible that this is a viable way for new games to be developed by independant developers. It's certainly better than getting professional investors provide the money. It's still a niche game though (sci-fi, perma-death).
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Some gamers will boycott a game if it has pd, but there are no gamers who would boycott for not having it.
This is pretty much the fundamental for game design (esp mmo's) nowadays, it's a numbers game and results in largely bland game play. But bland gaming for the largest crowd
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I agreeYeah .. most MMO will fold if they only have 5000 players .. even 10000.
I've had and still have plenty of interests and hobbies that are very much a niche. Some of those most people don't get or find remotely appealing. Some of them are even hated upon by certain people (hey, I'm a furry - burn in hell furfag and all that LOL). I've learned over the years that it's best to not let those things bug me. It allows me to better enjoy those niche interests and also keeps me from becoming bitter and lash out at those who don't understand why I like a particular niche. Of course, it sucks a bit if something particular is so niche that there's little to no support for it and you go around craving it, but why should I rub it in someone's face while basically screaming "HA - I was right! Nyaaaah!" if it suddenly turns out that there might be some sort of support for it? That makes me no better than the rest of the haters.
As for permadeath - I still feel it's niche and always will be a niche. It's just not something the majority likes. Period. I don't see a problem with it being niche though. I'm sure it's something that can be pulled off and I'm sure there's enough people to support it being pulled off. The world is pretty darn big and getting pretty crowded. I could even see it grow over time and become less of a niche. Just don't expect 10+ million people wanting to play on launch and investors wanting to put $200 million into it. But neither of that is really needed to make a good game. In fact, some of the better games I've been playing over the last couple of years have been pretty low-budget.
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premadeath is stupid.
I would rather just go play real life.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
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Basically this. Idiots cried FOR ZOMG SUPER HARDCORE PVP CONSEQUENCES AND CRAFTING THAT WAS SO LIKE ZOMG SUPER HARD ZOMGGGGGG....then they played Aion......
I always thought people play games to escape from real life not bring all the problems of real life into the game.
risk vs reward in real life is extreemly high and the amount of work and risk is usually obscenly high compared to satisfying rewards, so yeah, I am not looking to replace that in my game.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
actually permadeath is a niche, because here's why, sure they have thousands of supporters however, when the game launches all of the bulk purchases from the REST of the community which makes up the bulk of ALL gaming communities is Casual Players. Very few casual players will actually enjoy permadeath, just like very few casual players enjoy geared pvp. Casual players aren't the loudest voices in forums however, when it comes down to the sales figures, we have the biggest influence. The Execs know this and have watched accounts drop off like flies on a hot piece of metal in the summer time because of things like this. It's THE reason why you will never see permadeath in most themepark mmo's.
Oh and disagreeing with you isn't hating on permadeath, it's simply disagreeing with you.
7,235 people have donated on average $20.59
That bought them a copy of the game and acces to the beta of which there is a demo out ther.
How exactly is this different from anyone buying any other game?
There are 13 bulletpoints of what the game offers why can't people be "voting" for those things?
Really?
I see 7,238 backers. How is that not a niche?
Just because those 7,000+ backers donated within a short amount of time doesn't change the idea that it's a niche genre.
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When it comes to MMORPG's, permadeath just isn't a compatible concept.
IMO, the single most defining characteristic about MMORPG's vs their single player counterparts is continuity and especially, character progression.
Now exactly what is progression? In my case, I believe it involves the actual power of the character, therefore I even question if GW2 is a proper MMORPG by the standard definition, because it appears character power is capped at a maximum level.
But even in GW2 on can make the argument that progression can be measured by the number of armor sets one collects, achievements that get completed, or PVP matches that are won.
Toss in true permadeath, and you basically are saying that all forms of progression are totally eliminated, it's as if you had never existed.
I suppose there's a small market of players that appeals to, but again, even if it was a large figure, it still wouldn't be a proper MMORPG w/o the defining element of progression, therefore you'd have to call it a different sort of game.
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EVE doesn't have permadeath.
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