Well, if complete wipes as a death penalty is the only true permadeath to you, then i guess there's not much else to learn from you atm. All your points seem to stuck there.
When you reroll in a permadeath game are you reincarnating? In real life you dont as you said. So wouldnt the only true permadeath be you cant even play anymore?
Like I said if you'll only take the worst implementaion as being 'true', then that's all I need to know i guess. thanks for the reasonable response though.
Re-rolling in a true permadeath game is just re-rolling. You're not effectively "reincarnating" since you'll have zero claim on anything you did in the former life.
If you did, it wouldn't be permadeath (just like it wouldn't IRL if that sort of thing were possible.)
Locking players out of the game completely would also be true permadeath, but it's enough if players simply lose everything when they re-roll.
But why talk about the worst types of permadeath that nobody really wants?
Just because some types of permadeath aren't "true" permadeath doesn't make them bad. Entirely the opposite, actually. The less "true", the better!
You cant talk about the lesser implementations. Everyone seems to think you mean wow with permadeath. Anyways.
In real life you arent spawned at a spawn point your born into a family, who have claim to the posession their family left them and so on. So you dont start off with zero claim to anything either. It can work both ways.
When you add rewards you add risk automatically dont you?
Doesn't seem like it's risk unless it's something "bet" beforehand that you can lose. Such as flying any EVE ship into any battle.
Both a "bet" and failure to earn a reward are penalties for failure, but it doesn't seem like the reward part is "risk" because you haven't actually risked anything.
Not that I mind. For me the failure to earn the reward is penalty enough for failing the encounter. It encourages me to rise to the challenge, and the game becomes the challenges (which are hopefully interesting enough to keep me playing.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Sorry no offense but that game looks like a 1990's retro nintendo console game. I know graphics isnt everything but that looks bad.
Ohh and FFA PvP and Perma Death will always be niche, doesnt make it bad just not mainstream.
Do you know what FFA PvP is? Are you confusing it that with full loot? You do realize that if not for factions, WoW would be FFA PvP right? You do realize that AoC(Age of Conan) is FFA PvP right? FFA PvP is not niche at all. Most games just offer faction PvP because it gives players a common enemy.
But yeah, perma-death will always be niche. It doesn't matter how you implement it. So, blah blah blah about everything else in this thread. Ultimately, it's niche. Oh well?
So Permadeath isn't niche because like 5000 people donated money?
Do you know what niche means?
Not to mention they might donate to themself. You know how people are.
True, so go do the same for a themepark game and see how many you get. Probably around the same number. It means nothing except there are people who would like a different experience.
When you add rewards you add risk automatically dont you?
Doesn't seem like it's risk unless it's something "bet" beforehand that you can lose. Such as flying any EVE ship into any battle.
Both a "bet" and failure to earn a reward are penalties for failure, but it doesn't seem like the reward part is "risk" because you haven't actually risked anything.
Not that I mind. For me the failure to earn the reward is penalty enough for failing the encounter. It encourages me to rise to the challenge, and the game becomes the challenges (which are hopefully interesting enough to keep me playing.)
Ya i agree. but if you fail to get the reward you've wasted your time, or you'll have to devote more. Less to devote to another area, Will you waste your time night after night to complete the challange? No reward except personal satisfaction out of game. time is money right? If it was fun i would, but i end up leveling slower due to that. Most wouldnt i assume.
Permanent death is a relic that stayed with us from the coin popping arcade days. The idea was death was going to get us to spend more quarters and maximize profits of the arcade owner. It is by no means a fun game concept. You can make games that make you feel as shitty about dying without resorting to permanent death.
So many people want permanent death until they die. Then suddenly they are punching in walls
Uhm, no. Permadeath is from most pen and paper RPGs.
It work very well there since during a year of P&P you never get into that many fights while you more or less combat all the time in MMOs. You also don't crash during play there, one bluescreen and you would be down in a MMO.
Permadeath works in MMOs, CCP will prove it in WoDO. There the player who is the prince of the region can call a bloodhunt, which is p0ermadeath during certain circumstances. That is not something that will happen because windows crashes or you have bad luck.
But permadeath al'a Salem will never get that many players, you just put in too much work and if something stupid happens that will make many players to quit the game.
Permadeath would also work in a game with very little combat or in none combat game where only accidents kill players. But there are few MMOs like that. If EA ever tries a new Sims online it would work there for example.
I thought you "crashed" if someone slipped ya a Mickey, then proceeded to RP your character as some cross dressing homdicidal maniac, just waiting to take over all your possessions.
Not that it ever happened to me or anything.
OK I only ever played PnP once, but with my friends in HS, some wild shit could of occured. Saw one of my friends do an "elevator ride" once, when he dropped to the ground, he got a rug burn on his forehead from stretching out on the carpet while out of it. We razzed his ass for nearly a yr over that incident.
Man, young folks can be mean. Being tagged with the nickname "fo-head" probably wasnt so cool when you are on the receiving end. Anywho.......
Seriously though you pretty much nailed it Loke....too much shit can happen in online games. Perma death is a mechanic just screaming out "Let the bitching begin". I couldnt even imagine what it would be like in an online game after the person has several years invested. You can bet they would be suing the company.
The one thing about FFA is players get to keep their toon, and folks still lose their minds. I gotta say though, it would make for some epic flames if a company was to make a MMO with this mechanic.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
As has been said there are gradation of permadeath:
You die, lose everything and are perma-banned from the game: 1 shot, 1 Life!
You die, lose everything and have to create a new character again.
You die, lose everything that was at risk at the time of death or potentially can be ransacked and so lose xp/progress/belongings ie you have to salvage your corpse to avoid loosing even more.
You die, lose a token value of something to add some sting to the experience and port back to a rez site.
You die, and just have a debuff or timer to remind you you died and should not try to replicate the experience!
You die, but rez back instantly ad infinitum.
etc...
FTL = Roguelike:
Short games
"Open world" exploration
Random chance
Perma-death
Repeat systems with depth to reactions/choices in emerging circumstances that allow you to increase the judgement of your choices to "hi-score further"/level boss/xp up more
Frenetic gameplay mixed with thrilling escape from death, mixed with balancing your resources for different types of enemy/dangers you are trying to anticipate/avoid/defeat.
So in this game the harsh perma-death is built into:
1) Shorter game -> Restart (open choices) -> level-up reward resources vs risk of dangers balance -> fire-fighting gameplay -> attain "new territories/attainments" ~ complexity of decisions to make/multi-tasking and risk-assessment ---> Hi-Score marker to exceed next time.
All are augmented by PERMA-DEATH = A bit like sitting an exam or test you are training for each time to improve at. Perma-Death is the ticking clock in this game. You can buy yourself more time, but ultimately you see how much you fit in a period of time.
I think FTL looks like quite a good implementation of this. The KS campaign has been successful because for $10 you get a DRM-free version of the game. It also was an IGF finalist. But it may be a short game due to the nature of the above and I'd prefer not to invest until a preview comes out.
For MMORPGs I think some good lessons could be had from the above^. But they'd need to overcome the problems ppl have mentioned with griefing/longer games of progress need death penalty > 2. in the list above I think is accurate to say if they are sustainable games with long term player progression designed in. Still a shorter/smaller mmorpg with some perma-death could be awesome. Or a time-limted perma-death as menionted re CCP's vampire mmorpg.
What Happens When You Die Death, and the penalties a character suffers for dying, impact a surprisingly large part of the Pathfinder Online game design. Goblinworks has been studying systems used in other MMOs, and we've been thinking about how we can make our own system interesting, and how it can reinforce our design goals. We've noticed that theme park MMOs have evolved toward increasingly minor penalties for character death, while sandbox games have tended toward harsher penalties. We've also paid special attention to the interaction that dying has with looting in player-vs-player (PvP) encounters, which is important since Pathfinder Online will allow unrestricted PvP in some locations.
The ideas described in this blog represent our current game design ideas and directions. They're subject to change as design progresses and as we get playtest and other feedback about them. You're encouraged to participate in the messageboard discussions about this topic as well—Goblinworks is always reading and listening to your comments.
Many Shades of Grief
One thing that we're deeply committed to at Goblinworks is building a game that has a low tolerance for "griefing."
Security, Risk and Reward
The closer you come to an NPC settlement, the faster the NPCs can respond to hostile actions taken against you.
Avoiding Exploits
There are several types of PvP-related exploits that Pathfinder Online will implement systems to restrict.
ABOVE ALL:
Our Philosophy of Fun
You can see that we're trying to avoid some of the problems that afflict other sandbox MMOs while still retaining open-world PvP, providing the risks that make your fellow players meaningfully dangerous, and thus A GREAT SOURCE OF STORIES!
I'm all for permadeath in mmos, but such systems are clearly very, very niche within this genre.
The interesting thing is that with the way mmos are going now, permadeath is actually far "less of an issue" in modern mmos than it was in "tradtional" ones. The main objection to PD in an mmorpg as opposed to say in an instant action game, is that it takes game time to progress your character in the former. If you die then all of that is lost.
Yet clearly these days mmorpgs are leaning towards less emphasis on time investment and are far more instant action orientated. With that being the case (and with it looking likely to continue) PD should not be anywhere near as much of an issue. But then PD seems pretty pointless in a game in which "getting back from scratch" takes zero time/effort.
I see a lot of talk about risk/reward etc. Regardless of the carrot and/or stick approach, it would take a pretty brave (read: foolish) person to deny that risk/thrill seeking is not an inherent part of human nature. Not everyone needs to have a risk element in an activity, but some clearly will derive added enjoyment from it.
Personally the challenge is the primary factor for me, but then added risk is the icing on the cake that improves the entertainment (more often than not).
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Every MMO in history has a perma death option built in on all servers for people who love it so much.
just delete your character when you die. if you need more than this, it's not permadeath you want, its hurting other players you are seeking.
since all characters in all MMO's in history DO allow you to delete your character when you die, making permadeath a supported feature truly would be primarily to delete other peoples characters against their will, and this WOULD lead to a decrease in player populations.
prove me wrong.
OmaliMMO Business CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 1,177
I agree with the OP. MMOs are a niche (with the exception of WoW), which would make permadeath a super-niche.
Every MMO in history has a perma death option built in on all servers for people who love it so much.
just delete your character when you die. if you need more than this, it's not permadeath you want, its hurting other players you are seeking.
since all characters in all MMO's in history DO allow you to delete your character when you die, making permadeath a supported feature truly would be primarily to delete other peoples characters against their will, and this WOULD lead to a decrease in player populations.
prove me wrong.
That's rubbish, because the actions of others are not driven by the same motivation as you in that case, so for example 2 equal looking people meeting where one has no death penalty will result in a fight because to one it won't matter, if both faced permadeath few would jump into a fight lightly.
Permanent death is a relic that stayed with us from the coin popping arcade days. The idea was death was going to get us to spend more quarters and maximize profits of the arcade owner. It is by no means a fun game concept. You can make games that make you feel as shitty about dying without resorting to permanent death.
So many people want permanent death until they die. Then suddenly they are punching in walls
What game with permadeath did people die and start punching the walls? How does that game compare to this one and why would they end with people punching walls?
What previous MMOs had permadeath, because people keep talking about them but I don't know any to compare things to.
I know, right. I wonder if we'll get an answer? Someone had mentioned playing one, maybe they'll tell us. Heaven and Earth?
NWN on AOL (the Stormfront studios version, not Bioware's.). The Triboar arena to be specific.
Every MMO in history has a perma death option built in on all servers for people who love it so much.
just delete your character when you die. if you need more than this, it's not permadeath you want, its hurting other players you are seeking.
since all characters in all MMO's in history DO allow you to delete your character when you die, making permadeath a supported feature truly would be primarily to delete other peoples characters against their will, and this WOULD lead to a decrease in player populations.
prove me wrong.
The mechanics that both support and make reasonable permadeath play are not present in those games. They will kill your character in absurd ways with little or no warning because death is trivial. Things like mass aggro and only rewarding players who take stupid chances are commonplace. For permadeath to work it must be designed into a game from the ground up.
BTW permadeath games aren't my cup of tea.
if perma death games nerf death chances, then what is the point? it's would be like bragging that you survived a boxing match with a sleeping mike tyson
Every MMO in history has a perma death option built in on all servers for people who love it so much.
just delete your character when you die. if you need more than this, it's not permadeath you want, its hurting other players you are seeking.
since all characters in all MMO's in history DO allow you to delete your character when you die, making permadeath a supported feature truly would be primarily to delete other peoples characters against their will, and this WOULD lead to a decrease in player populations.
prove me wrong.
That's rubbish, because the actions of others are not driven by the same motivation as you in that case, so for example 2 equal looking people meeting where one has no death penalty will result in a fight because to one it won't matter, if both faced permadeath few would jump into a fight lightly.
you dont seem to be saying anything, no matter how many times i read your post.
your post certainly doesent comment on the points i made above.
Every MMO in history has a perma death option built in on all servers for people who love it so much. just delete your character when you die. if you need more than this, it's not permadeath you want, its hurting other players you are seeking. since all characters in all MMO's in history DO allow you to delete your character when you die, making permadeath a supported feature truly would be primarily to delete other peoples characters against their will, and this WOULD lead to a decrease in player populations. prove me wrong.
The mechanics that both support and make reasonable permadeath play are not present in those games. They will kill your character in absurd ways with little or no warning because death is trivial. Things like mass aggro and only rewarding players who take stupid chances are commonplace. For permadeath to work it must be designed into a game from the ground up.
BTW permadeath games aren't my cup of tea.
if perma death games nerf death chances, then what is the point? it's would be like bragging that you survived a boxing match with a sleeping mike tyson
The point is the mechanics are equal, in a permadeath game choosing to fight is a serious matter, if it is not for the other inhabitants then the mechanics are screwed, I am not sure how you can't see that because it is a blindingly obvious fact.
Every MMO in history has a perma death option built in on all servers for people who love it so much. just delete your character when you die. if you need more than this, it's not permadeath you want, its hurting other players you are seeking. since all characters in all MMO's in history DO allow you to delete your character when you die, making permadeath a supported feature truly would be primarily to delete other peoples characters against their will, and this WOULD lead to a decrease in player populations. prove me wrong.
That's rubbish, because the actions of others are not driven by the same motivation as you in that case, so for example 2 equal looking people meeting where one has no death penalty will result in a fight because to one it won't matter, if both faced permadeath few would jump into a fight lightly.
you dont seem to be saying anything, no matter how many times i read your post.
your post certainly doesent comment on the points i made above.
Then I can only pity your skills of comprehension.
Every MMO in history has a perma death option built in on all servers for people who love it so much.
just delete your character when you die. if you need more than this, it's not permadeath you want, its hurting other players you are seeking.
since all characters in all MMO's in history DO allow you to delete your character when you die, making permadeath a supported feature truly would be primarily to delete other peoples characters against their will, and this WOULD lead to a decrease in player populations.
prove me wrong.
The mechanics that both support and make reasonable permadeath play are not present in those games. They will kill your character in absurd ways with little or no warning because death is trivial. Things like mass aggro and only rewarding players who take stupid chances are commonplace. For permadeath to work it must be designed into a game from the ground up.
BTW permadeath games aren't my cup of tea.
if perma death games nerf death chances, then what is the point? it's would be like bragging that you survived a boxing match with a sleeping mike tyson
The point is the mechanics are equal, in a permadeath game choosing to fight is a serious matter, if it is not for the other inhabitants then the mechanics are screwed, I am not sure how you can't see that because it is a blindingly obvious fact.
why are you speaking as tho PvP in a permadeath can only happen among equals? the lions share of dead would be characters many times weaker than their killers.
in your idealized scenario, of two perfectly equal and consenting combatants, deleting their toons after death would serve a perfectly equal purpose. whatever purpose that is, is a mystery to me, perhaps due to my blinding obvious lack of general comprehension.
Every MMO in history has a perma death option built in on all servers for people who love it so much.
just delete your character when you die. if you need more than this, it's not permadeath you want, its hurting other players you are seeking.
since all characters in all MMO's in history DO allow you to delete your character when you die, making permadeath a supported feature truly would be primarily to delete other peoples characters against their will, and this WOULD lead to a decrease in player populations.
prove me wrong.
The mechanics that both support and make reasonable permadeath play are not present in those games. They will kill your character in absurd ways with little or no warning because death is trivial. Things like mass aggro and only rewarding players who take stupid chances are commonplace. For permadeath to work it must be designed into a game from the ground up.
BTW permadeath games aren't my cup of tea.
if perma death games nerf death chances, then what is the point? it's would be like bragging that you survived a boxing match with a sleeping mike tyson
You hit Mike Tyson without waking him up. It's not about nerfing death chances it's about not making them purely arbitrary and your choices meaningless. In games where death is trivial there is little reason to be careful. In a permadeath game there is every reason to be careful.
death IS arbitrary and meaningless. to rearrange physics and consequences to somehow make death less likely to occur seems to also defeat whatever purpose is sought by providing the feature.
I always find it humorous when I see permadeath threads around here, because an overwhelming amount of people in this community will hate, attack, and violently brutalize any thread, idea, or post even partially involving permadeath.
Not gonna take the time to wade through the crap because I know my opinion on this is flamebait.
Most gamers today are to much gaming wimps to enjoy a game that actually puts a challenge on them. If they can die a few times and continue like nothing happened they count themselves great gamers because they could reach the end fast. They call themselves hardcore becuase they play none stop, sure they die a few hundred times but they win they got to the end first.
What they do not seem to understand is that play style is wimpish with no real skill required. Show me someone that is level 30 in a game with out any need to respawn other than a game glitch and then I will be impressed. In EVE I have a character that has played for almost 3 years and still never lost a ship. In Reckoning my character on hard has not once been defeated, in Skyrim I now on my 3rd character ude to the others dying but have reached level 35 with this one and no death.
People do not want challenge in their games any more, they complain about it not being fun. They want everything handed to them, hold theier hand as they walk through the game. They min/max game stats and act more like accountants than gamers. They will play the game system, but ignore the actual game and claim they are hardcore of l33t.
REAL hardcore gamers like the challenge, like the fact that death has meaning and thus our play has meaning. So let they little wimps flame the hardcore, let them cry about it being to hard and how it is not fun. Let them pat each other on the back and talk about how cool they are becuase they finished the game in 3 days. In the en they are just little kids that hack their way to the end thinking they deserve some credit or praise when they are in fact wimps that could not handle a real challenge if they ever faced it.
The above is purely my opinion with no minicing of words, if it offends someone then I am sorry for that but my advice is to listen to the Eagles song, "find your inner child and kick it's little ass".
I always find it humorous when I see permadeath threads around here, because an overwhelming amount of people in this community will hate, attack, and violently brutalize any thread, idea, or post even partially involving permadeath.
Not gonna take the time to wade through the crap because I know my opinion on this is flamebait.
Most gamers today are to much gaming wimps to enjoy a game that actually puts a challenge on them. If they can die a few times and continue like nothing happened they count themselves great gamers because they could reach the end fast. They call themselves hardcore becuase they play none stop, sure they die a few hundred times but they win they got to the end first.
What they do not seem to understand is that play style is wimpish with no real skill required. Show me someone that is level 30 in a game with out any need to respawn other than a game glitch and then I will be impressed. In EVE I have a character that has played for almost 3 years and still never lost a ship. In Reckoning my character on hard has not once been defeated, in Skyrim I now on my 3rd character ude to the others dying but have reached level 35 with this one and no death.
People do not want challenge in their games any more, they complain about it not being fun. They want everything handed to them, hold theier hand as they walk through the game. They min/max game stats and act more like accountants than gamers. They will play the game system, but ignore the actual game and claim they are hardcore of l33t.
REAL hardcore gamers like the challenge, like the fact that death has meaning and thus our play has meaning. So let they little wimps flame the hardcore, let them cry about it being to hard and how it is not fun. Let them pat each other on the back and talk about how cool they are becuase they finished the game in 3 days. In the en they are just little kids that hack their way to the end thinking they deserve some credit or praise when they are in fact wimps that could not handle a real challenge if they ever faced it.
The above is purely my opinion with no minicing of words, if it offends someone then I am sorry for that but my advice is to listen to the Eagles song, "find your inner child and kick it's little ass".
Every MMO in history has a perma death option built in on all servers for people who love it so much.
just delete your character when you die. if you need more than this, it's not permadeath you want, its hurting other players you are seeking.
since all characters in all MMO's in history DO allow you to delete your character when you die, making permadeath a supported feature truly would be primarily to delete other peoples characters against their will, and this WOULD lead to a decrease in player populations.
prove me wrong.
The mechanics that both support and make reasonable permadeath play are not present in those games. They will kill your character in absurd ways with little or no warning because death is trivial. Things like mass aggro and only rewarding players who take stupid chances are commonplace. For permadeath to work it must be designed into a game from the ground up.
BTW permadeath games aren't my cup of tea.
if perma death games nerf death chances, then what is the point? it's would be like bragging that you survived a boxing match with a sleeping mike tyson
You hit Mike Tyson without waking him up. It's not about nerfing death chances it's about not making them purely arbitrary and your choices meaningless. In games where death is trivial there is little reason to be careful. In a permadeath game there is every reason to be careful.
death IS arbitrary and meaningless. to rearrange physics and consequences to somehow make death less likely to occur seems to also defeat whatever purpose is sought by providing the feature.
Horsefeathers. Death in the real world is arbitrary and meaningless. Arbitrary death in a game is a product of sloppy design. Did you ever see a grandmaster in a chess tournament randomly remove another's king because death is arbitrary and meaningless? It wouldn't be tolerated. The point isn't to make death less likely but more forseeable meaningful.
so, we are talking about competiton then? chess is about a winner, and nothing else. you cant display skill at chess without simultaneously displaying your ability to control your opponent. it is a brutal and unforgiving game in that way. there are no safeguards in chess against a superior player. he will kill you dead, and shame you while doing it.
is permadeath about competition? i dont really think so. i think it presents that illusion, but then it would have to be designed to be little more than a shooter, or a platform style fighting game. never else will situations be suitably equal or fair enough to create the world you are describing.
stronger players with bathe in the blood of newbs, and if level or individual power is designed to be irrelevant, than a zerger utopia will dominate. permadeath games, at their heart, can be only about serving up the thrill of waiting out the clock.
Comments
You cant talk about the lesser implementations. Everyone seems to think you mean wow with permadeath. Anyways.
In real life you arent spawned at a spawn point your born into a family, who have claim to the posession their family left them and so on. So you dont start off with zero claim to anything either. It can work both ways.
Doesn't seem like it's risk unless it's something "bet" beforehand that you can lose. Such as flying any EVE ship into any battle.
Both a "bet" and failure to earn a reward are penalties for failure, but it doesn't seem like the reward part is "risk" because you haven't actually risked anything.
Not that I mind. For me the failure to earn the reward is penalty enough for failing the encounter. It encourages me to rise to the challenge, and the game becomes the challenges (which are hopefully interesting enough to keep me playing.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Do you know what FFA PvP is? Are you confusing it that with full loot? You do realize that if not for factions, WoW would be FFA PvP right? You do realize that AoC(Age of Conan) is FFA PvP right? FFA PvP is not niche at all. Most games just offer faction PvP because it gives players a common enemy.
But yeah, perma-death will always be niche. It doesn't matter how you implement it. So, blah blah blah about everything else in this thread. Ultimately, it's niche. Oh well?
True, so go do the same for a themepark game and see how many you get. Probably around the same number. It means nothing except there are people who would like a different experience.
Er, but the traits I've described of acceptable permadeath systems are the opposite of the way WOW is built.
Shallow progression (characters live less than 4 hours)
Character death only kills the character, but most of the progression exists apart from the character.
Why would you think I'm talking about WOW?
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Ya i agree. but if you fail to get the reward you've wasted your time, or you'll have to devote more. Less to devote to another area, Will you waste your time night after night to complete the challange? No reward except personal satisfaction out of game. time is money right? If it was fun i would, but i end up leveling slower due to that. Most wouldnt i assume.
I thought you "crashed" if someone slipped ya a Mickey, then proceeded to RP your character as some cross dressing homdicidal maniac, just waiting to take over all your possessions.
Not that it ever happened to me or anything.
OK I only ever played PnP once, but with my friends in HS, some wild shit could of occured. Saw one of my friends do an "elevator ride" once, when he dropped to the ground, he got a rug burn on his forehead from stretching out on the carpet while out of it. We razzed his ass for nearly a yr over that incident.
Man, young folks can be mean. Being tagged with the nickname "fo-head" probably wasnt so cool when you are on the receiving end. Anywho.......
Seriously though you pretty much nailed it Loke....too much shit can happen in online games. Perma death is a mechanic just screaming out "Let the bitching begin". I couldnt even imagine what it would be like in an online game after the person has several years invested. You can bet they would be suing the company.
The one thing about FFA is players get to keep their toon, and folks still lose their minds. I gotta say though, it would make for some epic flames if a company was to make a MMO with this mechanic.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
i have trouble believing 5 people donated to that sack of shit, but 7000? ...damn
As has been said there are gradation of permadeath:
You die, lose everything and are perma-banned from the game: 1 shot, 1 Life!
You die, lose everything and have to create a new character again.
You die, lose everything that was at risk at the time of death or potentially can be ransacked and so lose xp/progress/belongings ie you have to salvage your corpse to avoid loosing even more.
You die, lose a token value of something to add some sting to the experience and port back to a rez site.
You die, and just have a debuff or timer to remind you you died and should not try to replicate the experience!
You die, but rez back instantly ad infinitum.
etc...
FTL = Roguelike:
Short games
"Open world" exploration
Random chance
Perma-death
Repeat systems with depth to reactions/choices in emerging circumstances that allow you to increase the judgement of your choices to "hi-score further"/level boss/xp up more
Frenetic gameplay mixed with thrilling escape from death, mixed with balancing your resources for different types of enemy/dangers you are trying to anticipate/avoid/defeat.
So in this game the harsh perma-death is built into:
1) Shorter game -> Restart (open choices) -> level-up reward resources vs risk of dangers balance -> fire-fighting gameplay -> attain "new territories/attainments" ~ complexity of decisions to make/multi-tasking and risk-assessment ---> Hi-Score marker to exceed next time.
All are augmented by PERMA-DEATH = A bit like sitting an exam or test you are training for each time to improve at. Perma-Death is the ticking clock in this game. You can buy yourself more time, but ultimately you see how much you fit in a period of time.
I think FTL looks like quite a good implementation of this. The KS campaign has been successful because for $10 you get a DRM-free version of the game. It also was an IGF finalist. But it may be a short game due to the nature of the above and I'd prefer not to invest until a preview comes out.
For MMORPGs I think some good lessons could be had from the above^. But they'd need to overcome the problems ppl have mentioned with griefing/longer games of progress need death penalty > 2. in the list above I think is accurate to say if they are sustainable games with long term player progression designed in. Still a shorter/smaller mmorpg with some perma-death could be awesome. Or a time-limted perma-death as menionted re CCP's vampire mmorpg.
TL;DR: https://goblinworks.com/blog/
To Live and Die in the River Kingdoms
The ideas described in this blog represent our current game design ideas and directions. They're subject to change as design progresses and as we get playtest and other feedback about them. You're encouraged to participate in the messageboard discussions about this topic as well—Goblinworks is always reading and listening to your comments.
Many Shades of Grief
One thing that we're deeply committed to at Goblinworks is building a game that has a low tolerance for "griefing."
Security, Risk and Reward
The closer you come to an NPC settlement, the faster the NPCs can respond to hostile actions taken against you.
Avoiding Exploits
There are several types of PvP-related exploits that Pathfinder Online will implement systems to restrict.
ABOVE ALL:
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
I'm all for permadeath in mmos, but such systems are clearly very, very niche within this genre.
The interesting thing is that with the way mmos are going now, permadeath is actually far "less of an issue" in modern mmos than it was in "tradtional" ones. The main objection to PD in an mmorpg as opposed to say in an instant action game, is that it takes game time to progress your character in the former. If you die then all of that is lost.
Yet clearly these days mmorpgs are leaning towards less emphasis on time investment and are far more instant action orientated. With that being the case (and with it looking likely to continue) PD should not be anywhere near as much of an issue. But then PD seems pretty pointless in a game in which "getting back from scratch" takes zero time/effort.
I see a lot of talk about risk/reward etc. Regardless of the carrot and/or stick approach, it would take a pretty brave (read: foolish) person to deny that risk/thrill seeking is not an inherent part of human nature. Not everyone needs to have a risk element in an activity, but some clearly will derive added enjoyment from it.
Personally the challenge is the primary factor for me, but then added risk is the icing on the cake that improves the entertainment (more often than not).
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Every MMO in history has a perma death option built in on all servers for people who love it so much.
just delete your character when you die. if you need more than this, it's not permadeath you want, its hurting other players you are seeking.
since all characters in all MMO's in history DO allow you to delete your character when you die, making permadeath a supported feature truly would be primarily to delete other peoples characters against their will, and this WOULD lead to a decrease in player populations.
prove me wrong.
I agree with the OP. MMOs are a niche (with the exception of WoW), which would make permadeath a super-niche.
Feelings are mututal. There are millions of players world wide and consiering the amount of votes it is still in minority. So back at'cha buddy.
That's rubbish, because the actions of others are not driven by the same motivation as you in that case, so for example 2 equal looking people meeting where one has no death penalty will result in a fight because to one it won't matter, if both faced permadeath few would jump into a fight lightly.NWN on AOL (the Stormfront studios version, not Bioware's.). The Triboar arena to be specific.
if perma death games nerf death chances, then what is the point? it's would be like bragging that you survived a boxing match with a sleeping mike tyson
you dont seem to be saying anything, no matter how many times i read your post.
your post certainly doesent comment on the points i made above.
The mechanics that both support and make reasonable permadeath play are not present in those games. They will kill your character in absurd ways with little or no warning because death is trivial. Things like mass aggro and only rewarding players who take stupid chances are commonplace. For permadeath to work it must be designed into a game from the ground up.
BTW permadeath games aren't my cup of tea.
if perma death games nerf death chances, then what is the point? it's would be like bragging that you survived a boxing match with a sleeping mike tyson
The point is the mechanics are equal, in a permadeath game choosing to fight is a serious matter, if it is not for the other inhabitants then the mechanics are screwed, I am not sure how you can't see that because it is a blindingly obvious fact.
That's rubbish, because the actions of others are not driven by the same motivation as you in that case, so for example 2 equal looking people meeting where one has no death penalty will result in a fight because to one it won't matter, if both faced permadeath few would jump into a fight lightly.you dont seem to be saying anything, no matter how many times i read your post.
your post certainly doesent comment on the points i made above.
Then I can only pity your skills of comprehension.why are you speaking as tho PvP in a permadeath can only happen among equals? the lions share of dead would be characters many times weaker than their killers.
in your idealized scenario, of two perfectly equal and consenting combatants, deleting their toons after death would serve a perfectly equal purpose. whatever purpose that is, is a mystery to me, perhaps due to my blinding obvious lack of general comprehension.
death IS arbitrary and meaningless. to rearrange physics and consequences to somehow make death less likely to occur seems to also defeat whatever purpose is sought by providing the feature.
Not gonna take the time to wade through the crap because I know my opinion on this is flamebait.
Most gamers today are to much gaming wimps to enjoy a game that actually puts a challenge on them. If they can die a few times and continue like nothing happened they count themselves great gamers because they could reach the end fast. They call themselves hardcore becuase they play none stop, sure they die a few hundred times but they win they got to the end first.
What they do not seem to understand is that play style is wimpish with no real skill required. Show me someone that is level 30 in a game with out any need to respawn other than a game glitch and then I will be impressed. In EVE I have a character that has played for almost 3 years and still never lost a ship. In Reckoning my character on hard has not once been defeated, in Skyrim I now on my 3rd character ude to the others dying but have reached level 35 with this one and no death.
People do not want challenge in their games any more, they complain about it not being fun. They want everything handed to them, hold theier hand as they walk through the game. They min/max game stats and act more like accountants than gamers. They will play the game system, but ignore the actual game and claim they are hardcore of l33t.
REAL hardcore gamers like the challenge, like the fact that death has meaning and thus our play has meaning. So let they little wimps flame the hardcore, let them cry about it being to hard and how it is not fun. Let them pat each other on the back and talk about how cool they are becuase they finished the game in 3 days. In the en they are just little kids that hack their way to the end thinking they deserve some credit or praise when they are in fact wimps that could not handle a real challenge if they ever faced it.
The above is purely my opinion with no minicing of words, if it offends someone then I am sorry for that but my advice is to listen to the Eagles song, "find your inner child and kick it's little ass".
GET OVER IT!
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I have a soap box and I am not afraid to use it.
run away alot, do you?
so, we are talking about competiton then? chess is about a winner, and nothing else. you cant display skill at chess without simultaneously displaying your ability to control your opponent. it is a brutal and unforgiving game in that way. there are no safeguards in chess against a superior player. he will kill you dead, and shame you while doing it.
is permadeath about competition? i dont really think so. i think it presents that illusion, but then it would have to be designed to be little more than a shooter, or a platform style fighting game. never else will situations be suitably equal or fair enough to create the world you are describing.
stronger players with bathe in the blood of newbs, and if level or individual power is designed to be irrelevant, than a zerger utopia will dominate. permadeath games, at their heart, can be only about serving up the thrill of waiting out the clock.
unless we are talking about some bizzarro non pvp perma death.