Originally posted by Pigozz Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh
The argument is not if the cash shop is P2W The argument has been that cash shops destroy MMOs If you are arguing that the cash shop is NOT P2W, then we have to define P2W. If you don't consider gold selling off the cash shop P2W, then you win your argument. But even then, the fact that we say, we need to define P2W means there is a gray area and that alone speaks loudly. Cash shop destroys MMOs as much as P2P idea did...It Makes companies greedy and creating overhyped BS games (SWTOR case) with that slimy carrot on a stick to keep the subs...it's as posionous as CS with gamble items And the bigger picture? Isn't that a company creating one of the most compelling and content rich MMO ever created and their try to earn their money back for that huge commintment while being as cash friendly to costumers as they can(aka CS with 0 or minimum influence on actual gameplay ) ?? Well I think it is and that is the reason Im totally ok with cash shop. Even though I'd be more than happy if there was none...I dont like CS as much as anybody...I just understand why they have it
I won't disagree that early MMOs did everything to trip the player's growth to slow them down.
The problem is that there needs to be a reason to keep coming back. and unfortunately. Fresh, new and exciting content isn't going to cut it. People will play through it faster than it can be churned out. So without that reason to grind that we all hate so much (...yes I do too). there is no reason to keep logging in every day.
Now lets be clear. The traditional MMO model has players logging in day in day out month after month, year after year.
I see GW as in interruption to this process for someone else's other MMO. They will drop it, play through GW content, finish it off then go back to old faithful while GW works on new content then come back and the cycle goes on.
Originally posted by Pigozz Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh
The answer to your question is in the post you quoted HINT: "Once people can get their purchases into the overall economy, then you have a Cash Shop driven Meta-Game." Gems are bought only for money, and money are earned ONLY via playing,then there are money sinks and gems are spent... So no..CS will not drive the economy of the game as people need to "create" the gold through playing
That argument really holds no water. In fact, I don't know why Mike O'Brien even made that statement in his announcement. It's no different than any other gold selling model. I am unaware of any game where buying gold from the CS spawns new gold directly into the game. Rather almost every one without exception converts a CS item into currency that already exists.
The argument has been that cash shops destroy MMOs
If you are arguing that the cash shop is NOT P2W, then we have to define P2W.
If you don't consider gold selling off the cash shop P2W, then you win your argument.
But even then, the fact that we say, we need to define P2W means there is a gray area and that alone speaks loudly.
Cash shop destroys MMOs as much as P2P idea did...It Makes companies greedy and creating overhyped BS games (SWTOR case) with that slimy carrot on a stick to keep the subs...it's as posionous as CS with gamble items
And the bigger picture? Isn't that a company creating one of the most compelling and content rich MMO ever created and their try to earn their money back for that huge commintment while being as cash friendly to costumers as they can(aka CS with 0 or minimum influence on actual gameplay ) ??
Well I think it is and that is the reason Im totally ok with cash shop.
Even though I'd be more than happy if there was none...I dont like CS as much as anybody...I just understand why they have it
I won't disagree that early MMOs did everything to trip the player's growth to slow them down.
The problem is that there needs to be a reason to keep coming back.
and unfortunately. Fresh, new and exciting content isn't going to cut it. People will play through it faster than it can be churned out. So without that reason to grind that we all hate so much (...yes I do too). there is no reason to keep logging in every day.
Now lets be clear. The traditional MMO model has players logging in day in day out month after month, year after year.
I see GW as in interruption to this process for someone else's other MMO. They will drop it, play through GW content, finish it off then go back to old faithful while GW works on new content then come back and the cycle goes on.
HAHAHA!!
Dude, by your definition of MMO's, we shouldnt even be playing them. I mean, sooner or later were going to be through all the content, and they can never keep up, so the heck with it.
Reminds me of why I shower, I mean Im just going to get dirty again, why bother....LOL!!
People dont mind paying 15$/month on P2P games only to be nastily forced to BUY expansion pack to stand a chance in that game, but now with GW2, it seems like everyone is crying their eyes out for xp boost in non-grindy game and stuff that has 0 effect on WvWvW (the only sandboxy part of the game, where it would matters )
Overreaction and doomsaying at its finest, nothing else
And what I see are people focusing in on one or two items that seem to be harmless and saying "Nothing to see here..Move along" while completely omitting other items or even the big picture. Especially the big picture.
Ignorance and hype at it's finest, nothing else
I just gave you bigger picture: P2P with paid Xpac is P2W...Ignorance of that is silly
So..WHAT are the items that will give you advantage? Tell me please
Because I dont see any
If I'm pro I will kick the rich guy ass any day in PvP, and we cant compete in PvE
now..prove me wrong please
The argument is not if the cash shop is P2W
The argument has been that cash shops destroy MMOs
If you are arguing that the cash shop is NOT P2W, then we have to define P2W.
If you don't consider gold selling off the cash shop P2W, then you win your argument.
But even then, the fact that we say, we need to define P2W means there is a gray area and that alone speaks loudly.
Actaully WE dont have to do anything.
You have to decide if YOU can live with the CS, because its here to stay, Anet needs to pay the bills somehow, so its sub or CS, looks like we got CS.
So its YOU that has to decide if the CS is P2W, and its YOU thats has to decide if your going to keep playing the game. We will be ingame having a blast, while YOU decide if you want to play.
People dont mind paying 15$/month on P2P games only to be nastily forced to BUY expansion pack to stand a chance in that game, but now with GW2, it seems like everyone is crying their eyes out for xp boost in non-grindy game and stuff that has 0 effect on WvWvW (the only sandboxy part of the game, where it would matters )
Overreaction and doomsaying at its finest, nothing else
And what I see are people focusing in on one or two items that seem to be harmless and saying "Nothing to see here..Move along" while completely omitting other items or even the big picture. Especially the big picture.
Ignorance and hype at it's finest, nothing else
I just gave you bigger picture: P2P with paid Xpac is P2W...Ignorance of that is silly
So..WHAT are the items that will give you advantage? Tell me please
Because I dont see any
If I'm pro I will kick the rich guy ass any day in PvP, and we cant compete in PvE
now..prove me wrong please
The argument is not if the cash shop is P2W
The argument has been that cash shops destroy MMOs
If you are arguing that the cash shop is NOT P2W, then we have to define P2W.
If you don't consider gold selling off the cash shop P2W, then you win your argument.
But even then, the fact that we say, we need to define P2W means there is a gray area and that alone speaks loudly.
Actaully WE dont have to do anything.
You have to decide if YOU can live with the CS, because its here to stay, Anet needs to pay the bills somehow, so its sub or CS, looks like we got CS.
So its YOU that has to decide if the CS is P2W, and its YOU thats has to decide if your going to keep playing the game. We will be ingame having a blast, while YOU decide if you want to play.
Originally posted by Pigozz Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh
The answer to your question is in the post you quoted HINT: "Once people can get their purchases into the overall economy, then you have a Cash Shop driven Meta-Game." Gems are bought only for money, and money are earned ONLY via playing,then there are money sinks and gems are spent... So no..CS will not drive the economy of the game as people need to "create" the gold through playing
And you know this because?????????
Let me explain something. When you start introducing money sinks to compensate for the influx of gems bought from the CS, you are literally destroying the potential for a non gem buyer to earn money. Everything they do will be barely enough to keep their head above water just to play the game let alone amass any wealth for themselves.
Originally posted by Adalwulff Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh
Originally posted by Pigozz
Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh
The argument is not if the cash shop is P2W The argument has been that cash shops destroy MMOs If you are arguing that the cash shop is NOT P2W, then we have to define P2W. If you don't consider gold selling off the cash shop P2W, then you win your argument. But even then, the fact that we say, we need to define P2W means there is a gray area and that alone speaks loudly.
Cash shop destroys MMOs as much as P2P idea did...It Makes companies greedy and creating overhyped BS games (SWTOR case) with that slimy carrot on a stick to keep the subs...it's as posionous as CS with gamble items And the bigger picture? Isn't that a company creating one of the most compelling and content rich MMO ever created and their try to earn their money back for that huge commintment while being as cash friendly to costumers as they can(aka CS with 0 or minimum influence on actual gameplay ) ?? Well I think it is and that is the reason Im totally ok with cash shop. Even though I'd be more than happy if there was none...I dont like CS as much as anybody...I just understand why they have it
I won't disagree that early MMOs did everything to trip the player's growth to slow them down. The problem is that there needs to be a reason to keep coming back. and unfortunately. Fresh, new and exciting content isn't going to cut it. People will play through it faster than it can be churned out. So without that reason to grind that we all hate so much (...yes I do too). there is no reason to keep logging in every day. Now lets be clear. The traditional MMO model has players logging in day in day out month after month, year after year. I see GW as in interruption to this process for someone else's other MMO. They will drop it, play through GW content, finish it off then go back to old faithful while GW works on new content then come back and the cycle goes on. HAHAHA!! Dude, by your definition of MMO's, we shouldnt even be playing them. I mean, sooner or later were going to be through all the content, and they can never keep up, so the heck with it. Reminds me of why I shower, I mean Im just going to get dirty again, why bother....LOL!!
Embrace the future guys, it is the way the industry is headed. How you spend that money will determine the course. For me, I will never reward a game that sells power or exploits human nature through gambling items. But that's my own personal veiws.
Finally some intelligence amungst this chaos .... I suggest everyone watches that video, very informative for those without the knowledge.
Actaully WE dont have to do anything. You have to decide if YOU can live with the CS, because its here to stay, Anet needs to pay the bills somehow, so its sub or CS, looks like we got CS. So its YOU that has to decide if the CS is P2W, and its YOU thats has to decide if your going to keep playing the game. We will be ingame having a blast, while YOU decide if you want to play. NOTHING you say here is going to change that.
What makes you think so? Imo it doesn't and never did...
Cheap gold = cheap gems = massive inflation
Players who bought gold in P2P games will do the same in F2P games.
gonna ask yet again the question that gets dodged EVERY TIME... How do you farm or bot in GW2? I cannot think of one way that farming companies will be able to farm profitably. Bots couldn't handle the combat and grinding mobs doesn't gain you much.
They hijack accounts. Few people bother to farm or bot now anyways, stealing is faster and cheaper.
But it isn't sure that people will buy gold when there actually is an alternative. Buying gold both risks your credit card and your account, goldbuyers gets hacked more often than regular players not to mention chances are that you get banned.
hijacking accounts is a pretty small amount of how gold sellers get there gold to sell. They bot farm mobs or gather nodes and sell them. They would have to hack a good account every other day per server to compete with the income from selling mats alone. Now that is how it is in WoW.. I am sure its different with every game but botting is how it works in GW1 from what I understand as well.
Boting in gw1 is next to impossible. It works differently... Large amount of gold can be accumulated only by speed farming dungeons and areas.
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life." -------------------------------
Originally posted by akathos Originally posted by Bunks Great video from PA on microtransactions NEVER SELL POWER! http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/microtransactions Embrace the future guys, it is the way the industry is headed. How you spend that money will determine the course. For me, I will never reward a game that sells power or exploits human nature through gambling items. But that's my own personal veiws.
I did watch it. But I can only agree with parts of it.
What is more dangerous than items of power are items that allow players to skip content and/or skip farming. Once it catches on. It snowballs. The more that do it, the more that will have to do it. The whole Meta-Game becomes dependent on it just to get anything done.
So let's see what games out there have a really well balanced economy that also have a CS similar to what ANet is doing? Meaning, LOTRO is not really a good example since you are buying content. ANet's set up is more inline with traditional F2P models.
Let's see some good examples. Who did it right? Who was able to successfully do it? I'll head off the 1st one before it gets posted. EVE's PLEX? Like I said before, the sinks are so steep it takes years to become established. And that's also why the biggest and best Corps have players constantly dumping real money from PLEX into their corps to stay ahead.
Embrace the future guys, it is the way the industry is headed. How you spend that money will determine the course. For me, I will never reward a game that sells power or exploits human nature through gambling items. But that's my own personal veiws.
Finally some intelligence amungst this chaos .... I suggest everyone watches that video, very informative for those without the knowledge.
The answer to your question is in the post you quoted
HINT: "Once people can get their purchases into the overall economy, then you have a Cash Shop driven Meta-Game."
Gems are bought only for money, and money are earned ONLY via playing,then there are money sinks and gems are spent...
So no..CS will not drive the economy of the game as people need to "create" the gold through playing
And you know this because?????????
Let me explain something. When you start introducing money sinks to compensate for the influx of gems bought from the CS, you are literally destroying the potential for a non gem buyer to earn money. Everything they do will be barely enough to keep their head above water just to play the game let alone amass any wealth for themselves.
I guess explaining isn't going to do any good. What you say is true, but some people have either never experienced this for themselves and can't conceive of it, or they're so desperate to play GW2 that they refuse to see it. Either way, in a few months when they start feeling fleeced because they're constantly buying gems to trade for gold while their poorer guild members stop playing entirely due to having to grind up their own gold, they'll see the light.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
So let's see what games out there have a really well balanced economy that also have a CS similar to what ANet is doing?
Meaning, LOTRO is not really a good example since you are buying content. ANet's set up is more inline with traditional F2P models.
Let's see some good examples. Who did it right? Who was able to successfully do it?
I'll head off the 1st one before it gets posted.
EVE's PLEX? Like I said before, the sinks are so steep it takes years to become established.
And that's also why the biggest and best Corps have players constantly dumping real money from PLEX into their corps to stay ahead.
That's the thing...Eve Online is pure sandbox that allows players to influence the sandbox element via outside resources (aka PLEXes - you sell PLEXes - you have money - you have the resources to supply a war against other corp/alliance) and that is NOT okay
Luckily GW2 kinda separates the sandbox part (WvWvW) and allows no gain of advantage in it via outside resources:
You cannot use resurrection stones in WvWvW etc. (they should 'ban' repair kits there as well imo)
The only thing you can is buy blueprints for money earned through gems, but since the blueprints costs seemed to be little (press beta), you basicly receive 0 advantage this way in WvWvW ...and that is important
and the e-sport PvP part is basically a different game with its own rules...and basicaly no CS
I think I actually spent way more time reading and theorycrafting about MMOs than playing them
Let me explain something. When you start introducing money sinks to compensate for the influx of gems bought from the CS, you are literally destroying the potential for a non gem buyer to earn money. Everything they do will be barely enough to keep their head above water just to play the game let alone amass any wealth for themselves.
I guess explaining isn't going to do any good. What you say is true, but some people have either never experienced this for themselves and can't conceive of it, or they're so desperate to play GW2 that they refuse to see it. Either way, in a few months when they start feeling fleeced because they're constantly buying gems to trade for gold while their poorer guild members stop playing entirely due to having to grind up their own gold, they'll see the light.
But there is not a damn thing you will EVER need in the cash shop
So why would on earth would you be "forced" to earn more gold ??
I think I actually spent way more time reading and theorycrafting about MMOs than playing them
Originally posted by Pigozz Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh So let's see what games out there have a really well balanced economy that also have a CS similar to what ANet is doing? Meaning, LOTRO is not really a good example since you are buying content. ANet's set up is more inline with traditional F2P models. Let's see some good examples. Who did it right? Who was able to successfully do it? I'll head off the 1st one before it gets posted. EVE's PLEX? Like I said before, the sinks are so steep it takes years to become established. And that's also why the biggest and best Corps have players constantly dumping real money from PLEX into their corps to stay ahead.
That's the thing...Eve Online is pure sandbox that allows players to influence the sandbox element via outside resources (aka PLEXes - you sell PLEXes - you have money - you have the resources to supply a war against other corp/alliance) and that is NOT okay Luckily GW2 kinda separates the sandbox part (WvWvW) and allows no gain of advantage in it via outside resources: You cannot use resurrection stones in WvWvW etc. (they should 'ban' repair kits there as well imo) The only thing you can is buy blueprints for money earned through gems, but since the blueprints costs seemed to be little (press beta), you basicly receive 0 advantage this way in WvWvW ...and that is important and the e-sport PvP part is basically a different game with its own rules...and basicaly no CS I'll take your arguement as valid. I have no reason not to. But PVP events are only one aspect of this game no? otherwise you'll end up with a very small PVP e-sport niche game.
But my my question is...Are there any game that did it right?
Originally posted by Pigozz Originally posted by Madimorga
Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh
And you know this because????????? Let me explain something. When you start introducing money sinks to compensate for the influx of gems bought from the CS, you are literally destroying the potential for a non gem buyer to earn money. Everything they do will be barely enough to keep their head above water just to play the game let alone amass any wealth for themselves. I guess explaining isn't going to do any good. What you say is true, but some people have either never experienced this for themselves and can't conceive of it, or they're so desperate to play GW2 that they refuse to see it. Either way, in a few months when they start feeling fleeced because they're constantly buying gems to trade for gold while their poorer guild members stop playing entirely due to having to grind up their own gold, they'll see the light. But there is not a damn thing you will EVER need in the cash shop So why would on earth would you be "forced" to earn more gold ??
This also concerns me, but on a different level unrelated to the CS. But that's a different topic altogether.
So let's see what games out there have a really well balanced economy that also have a CS similar to what ANet is doing?
Meaning, LOTRO is not really a good example since you are buying content. ANet's set up is more inline with traditional F2P models.
Let's see some good examples. Who did it right? Who was able to successfully do it?
I'll head off the 1st one before it gets posted.
EVE's PLEX? Like I said before, the sinks are so steep it takes years to become established.
And that's also why the biggest and best Corps have players constantly dumping real money from PLEX into their corps to stay ahead.
That's the thing...Eve Online is pure sandbox that allows players to influence the sandbox element via outside resources (aka PLEXes - you sell PLEXes - you have money - you have the resources to supply a war against other corp/alliance) and that is NOT okay
Luckily GW2 kinda separates the sandbox part (WvWvW) and allows no gain of advantage in it via outside resources:
You cannot use resurrection stones in WvWvW etc. (they should 'ban' repair kits there as well imo)
The only thing you can is buy blueprints for money earned through gems, but since the blueprints costs seemed to be little (press beta), you basicly receive 0 advantage this way in WvWvW ...and that is important
and the e-sport PvP part is basically a different game with its own rules...and basicaly no CS
I'll take your arguement as valid. I have no reason not to. But PVP events are only one aspect of this game no?
otherwise you'll end up with a very small PVP e-sport niche game.
But my my question is...Are there any game that did it right?
League of Legends without a doubt
I think I actually spent way more time reading and theorycrafting about MMOs than playing them
Originally posted by Pigozz Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh
Originally posted by Pigozz
Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh So let's see what games out there have a really well balanced economy that also have a CS similar to what ANet is doing? Meaning, LOTRO is not really a good example since you are buying content. ANet's set up is more inline with traditional F2P models. Let's see some good examples. Who did it right? Who was able to successfully do it? I'll head off the 1st one before it gets posted. EVE's PLEX? Like I said before, the sinks are so steep it takes years to become established. And that's also why the biggest and best Corps have players constantly dumping real money from PLEX into their corps to stay ahead.
That's the thing...Eve Online is pure sandbox that allows players to influence the sandbox element via outside resources (aka PLEXes - you sell PLEXes - you have money - you have the resources to supply a war against other corp/alliance) and that is NOT okay Luckily GW2 kinda separates the sandbox part (WvWvW) and allows no gain of advantage in it via outside resources: You cannot use resurrection stones in WvWvW etc. (they should 'ban' repair kits there as well imo) The only thing you can is buy blueprints for money earned through gems, but since the blueprints costs seemed to be little (press beta), you basicly receive 0 advantage this way in WvWvW ...and that is important and the e-sport PvP part is basically a different game with its own rules...and basicaly no CS
I'll take your arguement as valid. I have no reason not to. But PVP events are only one aspect of this game no? otherwise you'll end up with a very small PVP e-sport niche game.
But my my question is...Are there any game that did it right? League of Legends without a doubt
Never played it, so I have no argument. But at the same time, Is LoL a true MMO? I thought it was a lobby based PVP game.
I guess explaining isn't going to do any good. What you say is true, but some people have either never experienced this for themselves and can't conceive of it, or they're so desperate to play GW2 that they refuse to see it. Either way, in a few months when they start feeling fleeced because they're constantly buying gems to trade for gold while their poorer guild members stop playing entirely due to having to grind up their own gold, they'll see the light.
Dude, do you really need that money in a GW game?
I mean once you have any lvl 80 armor and weapon you are more or less set, and you get one armor piece every time you complete a dungeon so the only thing you really need money for is runes.
I think people are forgetting how little items matters here. The only thing you really need money for in GW1 is to get more armor, weapons and minipets to score more points in hall of monuments. Well, there it also unlocks stuff in the guildhall and you can buy skills for it, but they have a seperate system for that in GW2.
The game is really more about having fun when you play then to horde riches, i don't think it will get much of an economy just like GW, gems or not.
People will use gems for a few things though, mainly to unlock bank and character slots.
I played GW for over 5 years, first time ever i felt that I needed some money was after they added HoM.
I guess explaining isn't going to do any good. What you say is true, but some people have either never experienced this for themselves and can't conceive of it, or they're so desperate to play GW2 that they refuse to see it. Either way, in a few months when they start feeling fleeced because they're constantly buying gems to trade for gold while their poorer guild members stop playing entirely due to having to grind up their own gold, they'll see the light.
Dude, do you really need that money in a GW game?
I mean once you have any lvl 80 armor and weapon you are more or less set, and you get one armor piece every time you complete a dungeon so the only thing you really need money for is runes.
I think people are forgetting how little items matters here. The only thing you really need money for in GW1 is to get more armor, weapons and minipets to score more points in hall of monuments. Well, there it also unlocks stuff in the guildhall and you can buy skills for it, but they have a seperate system for that in GW2.
The game is really more about having fun when you play then to horde riches, i don't think it will get much of an economy just like GW, gems or not.
People will use gems for a few things though, mainly to unlock bank and character slots.
I played GW for over 5 years, first time ever i felt that I needed some money was after they added HoM.
Exactly, you spend if you want more items or you can just play it
The argument has been that cash shops destroy MMOs
If you are arguing that the cash shop is NOT P2W, then we have to define P2W.
If you don't consider gold selling off the cash shop P2W, then you win your argument.
But even then, the fact that we say, we need to define P2W means there is a gray area and that alone speaks loudly.
Cash shop destroys MMOs as much as P2P idea did...It Makes companies greedy and creating overhyped BS games (SWTOR case) with that slimy carrot on a stick to keep the subs...it's as posionous as CS with gamble items
And the bigger picture? Isn't that a company creating one of the most compelling and content rich MMO ever created and their try to earn their money back for that huge commintment while being as cash friendly to costumers as they can(aka CS with 0 or minimum influence on actual gameplay ) ??
Well I think it is and that is the reason Im totally ok with cash shop.
Even though I'd be more than happy if there was none...I dont like CS as much as anybody...I just understand why they have it
You do realize many complaints about TOR from those playing are that it doesn't have enough carrots to chase right? That's what many P2P customers expect.
Just like CS customers expect short-cuts and instant gratification.
The bigger picture is whatever weighs more to the individual expressing an opinion. That's really something both of you should think about. For some it may be GW2 the game, for others it may be GW2 the muichindising... (insert yogurt picture here).
GW2 has a cash-shop very similar to what you find in any F2P non-sword of uberness RMT shop. That's going to attract the audience who is into that revenue stream. It will also turn those who are into alternatives (and only the alternatives) off. Considering this, it is inevitable that as the game grows so will the RMT options, how far it goes is anyones guess.
I do not agree that their CS system has a minimal impact on game-play. As the economy of the game will be very much controlled by it.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I guess explaining isn't going to do any good. What you say is true, but some people have either never experienced this for themselves and can't conceive of it, or they're so desperate to play GW2 that they refuse to see it. Either way, in a few months when they start feeling fleeced because they're constantly buying gems to trade for gold while their poorer guild members stop playing entirely due to having to grind up their own gold, they'll see the light.
Dude, do you really need that money in a GW game?
I mean once you have any lvl 80 armor and weapon you are more or less set, and you get one armor piece every time you complete a dungeon so the only thing you really need money for is runes.
I think people are forgetting how little items matters here. The only thing you really need money for in GW1 is to get more armor, weapons and minipets to score more points in hall of monuments. Well, there it also unlocks stuff in the guildhall and you can buy skills for it, but they have a seperate system for that in GW2.
The game is really more about having fun when you play then to horde riches, i don't think it will get much of an economy just like GW, gems or not.
People will use gems for a few things though, mainly to unlock bank and character slots.
I played GW for over 5 years, first time ever i felt that I needed some money was after they added HoM.
This game will have money sinks in it, Martin has already said so..This whole you won't need money arguement is flawed.
Is there gold sinks? Yup
Will you need gold for the gold sinks? Pretty sure
So then then you'll need gold for the gold sinks? Yup
I agree there wasn't really any gold sinks in GW1 but when Martan is on Guru telling people theres gonna be gold sinks so gold is not gonna be useless it defeat the whole argument of gold not being worth anything.
edited as it was Martin and not mike that made the qoute I am refering to..
Why would you need gold
I remember a lengthy discussion about having to spend gold on respeccing trades, or spending it on traveling etc.
We do have gold sinks in the game as well. You can't just take one aspect of the game and view it in a vacuum, things are connected.
Comments
The argument is not if the cash shop is P2W
The argument has been that cash shops destroy MMOs
If you are arguing that the cash shop is NOT P2W, then we have to define P2W.
If you don't consider gold selling off the cash shop P2W, then you win your argument.
But even then, the fact that we say, we need to define P2W means there is a gray area and that alone speaks loudly.
Cash shop destroys MMOs as much as P2P idea did...It Makes companies greedy and creating overhyped BS games (SWTOR case) with that slimy carrot on a stick to keep the subs...it's as posionous as CS with gamble items
And the bigger picture? Isn't that a company creating one of the most compelling and content rich MMO ever created and their try to earn their money back for that huge commintment while being as cash friendly to costumers as they can(aka CS with 0 or minimum influence on actual gameplay ) ??
Well I think it is and that is the reason Im totally ok with cash shop.
Even though I'd be more than happy if there was none...I dont like CS as much as anybody...I just understand why they have it
I won't disagree that early MMOs did everything to trip the player's growth to slow them down.
The problem is that there needs to be a reason to keep coming back.
and unfortunately. Fresh, new and exciting content isn't going to cut it. People will play through it faster than it can be churned out. So without that reason to grind that we all hate so much (...yes I do too). there is no reason to keep logging in every day.
Now lets be clear. The traditional MMO model has players logging in day in day out month after month, year after year.
I see GW as in interruption to this process for someone else's other MMO. They will drop it, play through GW content, finish it off then go back to old faithful while GW works on new content then come back and the cycle goes on.
The answer to your question is in the post you quoted
HINT: "Once people can get their purchases into the overall economy, then you have a Cash Shop driven Meta-Game."
Gems are bought only for money, and money are earned ONLY via playing,then there are money sinks and gems are spent...
So no..CS will not drive the economy of the game as people need to "create" the gold through playing
That argument really holds no water. In fact, I don't know why Mike O'Brien even made that statement in his announcement. It's no different than any other gold selling model. I am unaware of any game where buying gold from the CS spawns new gold directly into the game. Rather almost every one without exception converts a CS item into currency that already exists.
HAHAHA!!
Dude, by your definition of MMO's, we shouldnt even be playing them. I mean, sooner or later were going to be through all the content, and they can never keep up, so the heck with it.
Reminds me of why I shower, I mean Im just going to get dirty again, why bother....LOL!!
Actaully WE dont have to do anything.
You have to decide if YOU can live with the CS, because its here to stay, Anet needs to pay the bills somehow, so its sub or CS, looks like we got CS.
So its YOU that has to decide if the CS is P2W, and its YOU thats has to decide if your going to keep playing the game. We will be ingame having a blast, while YOU decide if you want to play.
NOTHING you say here is going to change that.
Actaully WE dont have to do anything.
You have to decide if YOU can live with the CS, because its here to stay, Anet needs to pay the bills somehow, so its sub or CS, looks like we got CS.
So its YOU that has to decide if the CS is P2W, and its YOU thats has to decide if your going to keep playing the game. We will be ingame having a blast, while YOU decide if you want to play.
NOTHING you say here is going to change that.
The answer to your question is in the post you quoted
HINT: "Once people can get their purchases into the overall economy, then you have a Cash Shop driven Meta-Game."
Gems are bought only for money, and money are earned ONLY via playing,then there are money sinks and gems are spent...
So no..CS will not drive the economy of the game as people need to "create" the gold through playing
And you know this because?????????
Let me explain something. When you start introducing money sinks to compensate for the influx of gems bought from the CS, you are literally destroying the potential for a non gem buyer to earn money. Everything they do will be barely enough to keep their head above water just to play the game let alone amass any wealth for themselves.
The argument is not if the cash shop is P2W
The argument has been that cash shops destroy MMOs
If you are arguing that the cash shop is NOT P2W, then we have to define P2W.
If you don't consider gold selling off the cash shop P2W, then you win your argument.
But even then, the fact that we say, we need to define P2W means there is a gray area and that alone speaks loudly.
Cash shop destroys MMOs as much as P2P idea did...It Makes companies greedy and creating overhyped BS games (SWTOR case) with that slimy carrot on a stick to keep the subs...it's as posionous as CS with gamble items
And the bigger picture? Isn't that a company creating one of the most compelling and content rich MMO ever created and their try to earn their money back for that huge commintment while being as cash friendly to costumers as they can(aka CS with 0 or minimum influence on actual gameplay ) ??
Well I think it is and that is the reason Im totally ok with cash shop.
Even though I'd be more than happy if there was none...I dont like CS as much as anybody...I just understand why they have it
I won't disagree that early MMOs did everything to trip the player's growth to slow them down.
The problem is that there needs to be a reason to keep coming back.
and unfortunately. Fresh, new and exciting content isn't going to cut it. People will play through it faster than it can be churned out. So without that reason to grind that we all hate so much (...yes I do too). there is no reason to keep logging in every day.
Now lets be clear. The traditional MMO model has players logging in day in day out month after month, year after year.
I see GW as in interruption to this process for someone else's other MMO. They will drop it, play through GW content, finish it off then go back to old faithful while GW works on new content then come back and the cycle goes on.
HAHAHA!!
Dude, by your definition of MMO's, we shouldnt even be playing them. I mean, sooner or later were going to be through all the content, and they can never keep up, so the heck with it.
Reminds me of why I shower, I mean Im just going to get dirty again, why bother....LOL!!
As I said before.....to build something.
Finally some intelligence amungst this chaos .... I suggest everyone watches that video, very informative for those without the knowledge.
http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/microtransactions
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For the short term, maybe.
Boting in gw1 is next to impossible. It works differently... Large amount of gold can be accumulated only by speed farming dungeons and areas.
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
-------------------------------
http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/microtransactions
I did watch it. But I can only agree with parts of it.
What is more dangerous than items of power are items that allow players to skip content and/or skip farming. Once it catches on. It snowballs. The more that do it, the more that will have to do it. The whole Meta-Game becomes dependent on it just to get anything done.
It simply undermines the whole game.
So let's see what games out there have a really well balanced economy that also have a CS similar to what ANet is doing?
Meaning, LOTRO is not really a good example since you are buying content. ANet's set up is more inline with traditional F2P models.
Let's see some good examples. Who did it right? Who was able to successfully do it?
I'll head off the 1st one before it gets posted.
EVE's PLEX? Like I said before, the sinks are so steep it takes years to become established.
And that's also why the biggest and best Corps have players constantly dumping real money from PLEX into their corps to stay ahead.
Agreee..
And it looks like Anet took notes of it as well
I think I actually spent way more time reading and theorycrafting about MMOs than playing them
I guess explaining isn't going to do any good. What you say is true, but some people have either never experienced this for themselves and can't conceive of it, or they're so desperate to play GW2 that they refuse to see it. Either way, in a few months when they start feeling fleeced because they're constantly buying gems to trade for gold while their poorer guild members stop playing entirely due to having to grind up their own gold, they'll see the light.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
That's the thing...Eve Online is pure sandbox that allows players to influence the sandbox element via outside resources (aka PLEXes - you sell PLEXes - you have money - you have the resources to supply a war against other corp/alliance) and that is NOT okay
Luckily GW2 kinda separates the sandbox part (WvWvW) and allows no gain of advantage in it via outside resources:
You cannot use resurrection stones in WvWvW etc. (they should 'ban' repair kits there as well imo)
The only thing you can is buy blueprints for money earned through gems, but since the blueprints costs seemed to be little (press beta), you basicly receive 0 advantage this way in WvWvW ...and that is important
and the e-sport PvP part is basically a different game with its own rules...and basicaly no CS
I think I actually spent way more time reading and theorycrafting about MMOs than playing them
But there is not a damn thing you will EVER need in the cash shop
So why would on earth would you be "forced" to earn more gold ??
I think I actually spent way more time reading and theorycrafting about MMOs than playing them
Luckily GW2 kinda separates the sandbox part (WvWvW) and allows no gain of advantage in it via outside resources:
You cannot use resurrection stones in WvWvW etc. (they should 'ban' repair kits there as well imo)
The only thing you can is buy blueprints for money earned through gems, but since the blueprints costs seemed to be little (press beta), you basicly receive 0 advantage this way in WvWvW ...and that is important
and the e-sport PvP part is basically a different game with its own rules...and basicaly no CS
I'll take your arguement as valid. I have no reason not to. But PVP events are only one aspect of this game no?
otherwise you'll end up with a very small PVP e-sport niche game.
But my my question is...Are there any game that did it right?
And you know this because?????????
Let me explain something. When you start introducing money sinks to compensate for the influx of gems bought from the CS, you are literally destroying the potential for a non gem buyer to earn money. Everything they do will be barely enough to keep their head above water just to play the game let alone amass any wealth for themselves.
I guess explaining isn't going to do any good. What you say is true, but some people have either never experienced this for themselves and can't conceive of it, or they're so desperate to play GW2 that they refuse to see it. Either way, in a few months when they start feeling fleeced because they're constantly buying gems to trade for gold while their poorer guild members stop playing entirely due to having to grind up their own gold, they'll see the light.
But there is not a damn thing you will EVER need in the cash shop
So why would on earth would you be "forced" to earn more gold ??
This also concerns me, but on a different level unrelated to the CS. But that's a different topic altogether.
League of Legends without a doubt
I think I actually spent way more time reading and theorycrafting about MMOs than playing them
That's the thing...Eve Online is pure sandbox that allows players to influence the sandbox element via outside resources (aka PLEXes - you sell PLEXes - you have money - you have the resources to supply a war against other corp/alliance) and that is NOT okay
Luckily GW2 kinda separates the sandbox part (WvWvW) and allows no gain of advantage in it via outside resources:
You cannot use resurrection stones in WvWvW etc. (they should 'ban' repair kits there as well imo)
The only thing you can is buy blueprints for money earned through gems, but since the blueprints costs seemed to be little (press beta), you basicly receive 0 advantage this way in WvWvW ...and that is important
and the e-sport PvP part is basically a different game with its own rules...and basicaly no CS
I'll take your arguement as valid. I have no reason not to. But PVP events are only one aspect of this game no?
otherwise you'll end up with a very small PVP e-sport niche game.
But my my question is...Are there any game that did it right?
League of Legends without a doubt
Never played it, so I have no argument.
But at the same time, Is LoL a true MMO? I thought it was a lobby based PVP game.
Dude, do you really need that money in a GW game?
I mean once you have any lvl 80 armor and weapon you are more or less set, and you get one armor piece every time you complete a dungeon so the only thing you really need money for is runes.
I think people are forgetting how little items matters here. The only thing you really need money for in GW1 is to get more armor, weapons and minipets to score more points in hall of monuments. Well, there it also unlocks stuff in the guildhall and you can buy skills for it, but they have a seperate system for that in GW2.
The game is really more about having fun when you play then to horde riches, i don't think it will get much of an economy just like GW, gems or not.
People will use gems for a few things though, mainly to unlock bank and character slots.
I played GW for over 5 years, first time ever i felt that I needed some money was after they added HoM.
Exactly, you spend if you want more items or you can just play it
You do realize many complaints about TOR from those playing are that it doesn't have enough carrots to chase right? That's what many P2P customers expect.
Just like CS customers expect short-cuts and instant gratification.
The bigger picture is whatever weighs more to the individual expressing an opinion. That's really something both of you should think about. For some it may be GW2 the game, for others it may be GW2 the muichindising... (insert yogurt picture here).
GW2 has a cash-shop very similar to what you find in any F2P non-sword of uberness RMT shop. That's going to attract the audience who is into that revenue stream. It will also turn those who are into alternatives (and only the alternatives) off. Considering this, it is inevitable that as the game grows so will the RMT options, how far it goes is anyones guess.
I do not agree that their CS system has a minimal impact on game-play. As the economy of the game will be very much controlled by it.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
This game will have money sinks in it, Martin has already said so..This whole you won't need money arguement is flawed.
Is there gold sinks? Yup
Will you need gold for the gold sinks? Pretty sure
So then then you'll need gold for the gold sinks? Yup
I agree there wasn't really any gold sinks in GW1 but when Martan is on Guru telling people theres gonna be gold sinks so gold is not gonna be useless it defeat the whole argument of gold not being worth anything.
edited as it was Martin and not mike that made the qoute I am refering to..
Why would you need gold
I remember a lengthy discussion about having to spend gold on respeccing trades, or spending it on traveling etc.
We do have gold sinks in the game as well. You can't just take one aspect of the game and view it in a vacuum, things are connected.