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What can you do in an MMORPG?

TROLL_HARDTROLL_HARD Caucasian/WhitePosts: 312Member

A lot of people have been complaining for the last couple of years that MMORPGs produced now are stale. I have been playing a lot of Skyrim for the last couple of days and thinking about how it is different to play a single-player game.

 

Obviously, MMORPGs are meant to be played with others. As far as I can tell, there have basically been two things you can do:

 

(1) PvE -- Since there are other people playing, you need stronger enemies (bosses) and a motivation (loot). So there is the level up to learn your class and then raid for "endgame." You gain levels (and/or better gear through loot drops). You can have a bit of PvP in instanced "battlegrounds."

 

(2) PvP -- The other thing you can do with lots of people. Some MMORPGs are centered around this: Darkfall, Mortal Online, EVE, etc. They have a bit of PvE for when people need resources or to take a break. You either gain levels, or level up skills. These are for groups of people to fight other groups in clans, guilds, factions, or realms for whatever political or economic reasons.

 

Recently, in an attempt to dodge the charge of not innovating, some games are going to a seeming third option of:

 

(3) Dynamic Events -- But this is really a masked form of raid (Rift, with raid rifts), which is more spontaneous, quicker, and maybe more convenient: e.g., rifts, public quests. Or they can be PvP, like the PvP rifts in Rift. I'm not sure what GW2 is going to do here. Is this really a third category? Or is it a form of (1) and (2) either separetly or hybridized?

 

Here are the questions I have: 

 



  • What else can you do in an MMORPG? 


  • How might an Elder Scrolls MMORPG possibly be different from the above? And how could it live up to the Elder Scrolls single-player world most of us know and love?


  • Is GW2 really any different?


  • What is the future of innovation for MMORPGs; or do we have everything we can possibly, except graphics will just get better?


  • Having missed these games in their prime, how were UO and SWG different from the above (1)-(3) (if they were)


 


EDIT: You might be able to add some kind of simulation option like the Sims, where you get a house (a lot of people would probably go for player housing, but no devs seem to want to go for it for some reason), you can dress up ( lot of people like cosmetic items and pets), and socialize. Is this a possibility? Have any games done this? Let's call it:


 


(4) Simulation + other people -- This contains (1)-(3) above, as well as the choice to stay in a city, have a house, do quests in town and level up your sim/avatar. Is this a possible future for MMORPGs? Is it feasible? How would it look?


 


 

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Comments

  • LarsaLarsa NurembergPosts: 990Member

    Originally posted by TROLL_HARD

    ...

    Obviously, MMORPGs are meant to be played with others. As far as I can tell, there have basically been two things you can do:

     (1) PvE ...

     (2) PvP...

    That would be an extremely limited view on MMORPGs.

    Crafting, harvesting, playing the economy, fishing, composing music, roleplaying, building the house, decorating the house, playing diplomacy, running a shop, prospecting for rare materials are all activities MMORPGs have added to the combat-only experience.

    I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.

  • ObraikObraik ChristchurchPosts: 7,261Member

    Player economies.  Not so much in todays WoW-like MMO's, but ones from the past featured this.  SWG had a player run economy as pretty much everything you purchased for with credits (SWG's currency) was from another player.  Weapons and armour that you looted from boss mobs did not have very good stats, however you could break it down to convert it into a schematic that could be taken to a crafter to have it made far superior.  It was almost impossible to get through the game without having interaction through another player (although sometimes that interaction was through another players vendor).

    image

    image

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    For some reason there is strong opposition from the min-max'ers to having these options in a game, it doesn't enhance the one aspect they like or might require them to be dependant on another player to obtain something and so it is to be disapproved. Hell, there is a 40 page thread on the SWTOR forums with people arguing against day/night cycles and variable weather.
  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 18,030Member Uncommon

    DEs aren't really like raids. it is more like a group quest where anyone can join at any time until it is completed.

    It is not really something new as such, sometimes in the really old games GMs could drop something similar on the players in the zone but since it is scaling, none instanced and replacing a quest it really ain't a raid.

  • TROLL_HARDTROLL_HARD Caucasian/WhitePosts: 312Member

    Originally posted by Obraik

    Player economies.  Not so much in todays WoW-like MMO's, but ones from the past featured this.  SWG had a player run economy as pretty much everything you purchased for with credits (SWG's currency) was from another player.  Weapons and armour that you looted from boss mobs did not have very good stats, however you could break it down to convert it into a schematic that could be taken to a crafter to have it made far superior.  It was almost impossible to get through the game without having interaction through another player (although sometimes that interaction was through another players vendor).

    Can we classify player ecomomies into (4) as a kind of economic sim activity?

     

    What games does this best? I haven't played EVE past the trial, but I understand a lot of non-PvPers can find game in economic and crafting activities. Is this true?

     

     

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    Originally posted by TROLL_HARD


    Originally posted by Obraik

    Player economies.  Not so much in todays WoW-like MMO's, but ones from the past featured this.  SWG had a player run economy as pretty much everything you purchased for with credits (SWG's currency) was from another player.  Weapons and armour that you looted from boss mobs did not have very good stats, however you could break it down to convert it into a schematic that could be taken to a crafter to have it made far superior.  It was almost impossible to get through the game without having interaction through another player (although sometimes that interaction was through another players vendor).

    Can we classify player ecomomies into (4) as a kind of economic sim activity?

     

    What games does this best? I haven't played EVE past the trial, but I understand a lot of non-PvPers can find game in economic and crafting activities. Is this true?

     

     

     

    You have obviously never played a game where crafting matters, if loot drops are better than crafted goods then crafting is a worthless grind. If the crafter can make the best stuff in the game then you have something worth doing.
  • TROLL_HARDTROLL_HARD Caucasian/WhitePosts: 312Member

    Originally posted by RefMinor

    You have obviously never played a game where crafting matters, if loot drops are better than crafted goods then crafting is a worthless grind. If the crafter can make the best stuff in the game then you have something worth doing.

    I haven't and it has been a great disappointment to me. My first MMORPG was WoW BC.  You know how pointless crafting is in the typical themepark.

     

     

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,915Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Obraik

    Player economies.  Not so much in todays WoW-like MMO's, but ones from the past featured this.  SWG had a player run economy as pretty much everything you purchased for with credits (SWG's currency) was from another player.  Weapons and armour that you looted from boss mobs did not have very good stats, however you could break it down to convert it into a schematic that could be taken to a crafter to have it made far superior.  It was almost impossible to get through the game without having interaction through another player (although sometimes that interaction was through another players vendor).

    Don't forget things like entertainers, 100% soical oriented game-play, we don't see enough of that in MMO's at all today. IF there is any company I could see looking at SWG for inspiration it would be Bethesda.

     

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • GeeTeeEffOhGeeTeeEffOh Newington, CTPosts: 731Member


    Originally posted by RefMinor

    Originally posted by TROLL_HARD



    Originally posted by Obraik
    Player economies.  Not so much in todays WoW-like MMO's, but ones from the past featured this.  SWG had a player run economy as pretty much everything you purchased for with credits (SWG's currency) was from another player.  Weapons and armour that you looted from boss mobs did not have very good stats, however you could break it down to convert it into a schematic that could be taken to a crafter to have it made far superior.  It was almost impossible to get through the game without having interaction through another player (although sometimes that interaction was through another players vendor).

    Can we classify player ecomomies into (4) as a kind of economic sim activity?
     
    What games does this best? I haven't played EVE past the trial, but I understand a lot of non-PvPers can find game in economic and crafting activities. Is this true?
     
     

     
    You have obviously never played a game where crafting matters, if loot drops are better than crafted goods then crafting is a worthless grind. If the crafter can make the best stuff in the game then you have something worth doing.

    This is at the heart of what people call the "Sandbox" styled MMO
    Vs the WoW "Theme-Park"

    In the SB style, The players can focus on building a virtual world including all aspects of it. In EVE the phrase holds: "The players ARE the endgame" If done right, SB styles have the best endgame because it TRULY is dynamic. The problem for most is getting there

    In the TB style, your world is already built for you. You just get to play in it.
    So then the focus has to be turned to building your own character instead of the world.

  • EmwynEmwyn MoatshirePosts: 546Member

    Originally posted by Distopia

    Don't forget things like entertainers, 100% soical oriented game-play, we don't see enough of that in MMO's at all today. IF there is any company I could see looking at SWG for inspiration it would be Bethesda.

     

    We definately don't see enough if any of that anymore. So many games on rails and more rails and no social aspect to speak of beyond a chat channel. I don't mind themepark mmo's as long as there is space for player imagination too. I hope you are right about Bethesda. image

    the poster formerly known as melangel :P

  • Goatgod76Goatgod76 Stow, OHPosts: 1,214Member

    Originally posted by RefMinor

     

    You have obviously never played a game where crafting matters, if loot drops are better than crafted goods then crafting is a worthless grind. If the crafter can make the best stuff in the game then you have something worth doing.

    This. Since the shift from the "we" mentality to the "me" mentality in MMORPG's...all that is focused on is gear in quests and raids (Mainly raids). Crafting is an afterthought.

    Player crafting that is meaningful  adds another aspect of the game worth exploring, as well as profiting from.

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,915Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Melangel

    Originally posted by Distopia



    Don't forget things like entertainers, 100% soical oriented game-play, we don't see enough of that in MMO's at all today. IF there is any company I could see looking at SWG for inspiration it would be Bethesda.

     

    We definately don't see enough if any of that anymore. So many games on rails and more rails and no social aspect to speak of beyond a chat channel. I don't mind themepark mmo's as long as there is space for player imagination too. I hope you are right about Bethesda. image

    So do I hehe.image

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • GeeTeeEffOhGeeTeeEffOh Newington, CTPosts: 731Member


    Originally posted by Melangel

    Originally posted by Distopia

    Don't forget things like entertainers, 100% soical oriented game-play, we don't see enough of that in MMO's at all today. IF there is any company I could see looking at SWG for inspiration it would be Bethesda.
     
    We definately don't see enough if any of that anymore. So many games on rails and more rails and no social aspect to speak of beyond a chat channel. I don't mind themepark mmo's as long as there is space for player imagination too. I hope you are right about Bethesda.

    It's not like we don't have a shinning example of what happens when a HUGE name company takes a very popular SPRPG title with a very well known IP and convert it into a very expensive to produce MMORPG.

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,915Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh

     






     

    It's not like we don't have a shinning example of what happens when a HUGE name company takes a very popular SPRPG title with a very well known IP and convert it into a very expensive to produce MMORPG.

    While that's true, these two companies are nothing alike they have completely different ideas on what makes a good RPG.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • EmwynEmwyn MoatshirePosts: 546Member

    Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh

    It's not like we don't have a shinning example of what happens when a HUGE name company takes a very popular SPRPG title with a very well known IP and convert it into a very expensive to produce MMORPG.

    Ok help me out GeeTee. I need a hint. FYI I had one cup of coffee today not 2. Also I slept half the day because I forgot to change my clocks. Not cool. Now my brain is working at half speed image

    Wondering if you mean Skyrim. Which I HOPE HAPPENS! And if it happens I hope they don't forget why people LOVE it.

    the poster formerly known as melangel :P

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,915Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Melangel

    Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh



    It's not like we don't have a shinning example of what happens when a HUGE name company takes a very popular SPRPG title with a very well known IP and convert it into a very expensive to produce MMORPG.

    Ok help me out GeeTee. I need a hint. FYI I had one cup of coffee today not 2. Also I slept half the day because I forgot to change my clocks. Not cool. Now my brain is working at half speed image

    Wondering if you mean Skyrim. Which I HOPE HAPPENS! And if it happens I hope they don't forget why people LOVE it.

    He's talking about Bioware and SWTOR. AT least that's my guess. :)

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • EmwynEmwyn MoatshirePosts: 546Member

    Originally posted by Distopia

    Originally posted by Melangel


    Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh



    It's not like we don't have a shinning example of what happens when a HUGE name company takes a very popular SPRPG title with a very well known IP and convert it into a very expensive to produce MMORPG.

    Ok help me out GeeTee. I need a hint. FYI I had one cup of coffee today not 2. Also I slept half the day because I forgot to change my clocks. Not cool. Now my brain is working at half speed image

    Wondering if you mean Skyrim. Which I HOPE HAPPENS! And if it happens I hope they don't forget why people LOVE it.

    He's talking about Bioware and SWTOR. AT least that's my guess. :)

    oh :( Yes. I liked the single player games. Though I admit I struggled at first running around for 3 days in one of the games with no clothes as I couldn't figure out how to find new ones. But that's part of the quirkiness of games that don't hold your hand. Tried SWTOR. Did I hate it? No. It could have made an excellent single player addition to the other single player games in the series. image

    the poster formerly known as melangel :P

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    The biggest thing most MMOs have been missing is all the non-combat activities.

    UO, SWG, very big focus on combat sure but almost an equal amount of attention on things like roleplay, building, housing, crafting, socializing, etc.

    Hell, even WoW has a sh!t-ton more non-combat content than most every other MMO released after WoW.

    Fishing, archealogy, cooking, non-combat acheivements and collections, etc.

    Some people just want to be a farmer, a blacksmith, an intergalactic trader or manufacturing kingpin.

     

    Customization also has seemed to be in big decline, but slowly the genre is catching back up in that aspect.

    Before you were told exactly how you should want to look - told to chase the newest/best piece of gear and told you had to love the look of it because the stats were so good.

    Thankfully, many MMOs are turning back to having more customization options, things like armor dying, appearance tabs, etc.

    So yeah,

    TLDR things missing from MMO genre lately -

    Customization

    Non-combat content

    And these things are ESSENTIAL to providing a game that isn't just a game, but a world you inhabit and truly "live in" in the virtual sense - a virtual home away from home. Escapism 101

    MMOs as a form of escapism has been in major decline in favor of MMOs that are merely entertainment products to consume.

  • DrakxiiDrakxii Waxahachie, TXPosts: 594Member

    Originally posted by RefMinor

    For some reason there is strong opposition from the min-max'ers to having these options in a game, it doesn't enhance the one aspect they like or might require them to be dependant on another player to obtain something and so it is to be disapproved. Hell, there is a 40 page thread on the SWTOR forums with people arguing against day/night cycles and variable weather.

    How the...  just wow, fanboys will defend bioware on anything wont they?

    I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    Originally posted by Drakxii


    Originally posted by RefMinor

    For some reason there is strong opposition from the min-max'ers to having these options in a game, it doesn't enhance the one aspect they like or might require them to be dependant on another player to obtain something and so it is to be disapproved. Hell, there is a 40 page thread on the SWTOR forums with people arguing against day/night cycles and variable weather.

    How the...  just wow, fanboys will defend bioware on anything wont they?

     

    Apparently having the NPCs in the same place as they are in the day would be a far greater immersion breaker for them than not having day/night.
  • ComafComaf Chicago, ILPosts: 1,154Member Common

    Originally posted by TROLL_HARD

    A lot of people have been complaining for the last couple of years that MMORPGs produced now are stale. I have been playing a lot of Skyrim for the last couple of days and thinking about how it is different to play a single-player game.

     

    Obviously, MMORPGs are meant to be played with others. As far as I can tell, there have basically been two things you can do:

     

    (1) PvE -- Since there are other people playing, you need stronger enemies (bosses) and a motivation (loot). So there is the level up to learn your class and then raid for "endgame." You gain levels (and/or better gear through loot drops). You can have a bit of PvP in instanced "battlegrounds."

     

    (2) PvP -- The other thing you can do with lots of people. Some MMORPGs are centered around this: Darkfall, Mortal Online, EVE, etc. They have a bit of PvE for when people need resources or to take a break. You either gain levels, or level up skills. These are for groups of people to fight other groups in clans, guilds, factions, or realms for whatever political or economic reasons.

     

    Recently, in an attempt to dodge the charge of not innovating, some games are going to a seeming third option of:

     

    (3) Dynamic Events -- But this is really a masked form of raid (Rift, with raid rifts), which is more spontaneous, quicker, and maybe more convenient: e.g., rifts, public quests. Or they can be PvP, like the PvP rifts in Rift. I'm not sure what GW2 is going to do here. Is this really a third category? Or is it a form of (1) and (2) either separetly or hybridized?

     

    Here are the questions I have: 

     



    • What else can you do in an MMORPG? 


    • How might an Elder Scrolls MMORPG possibly be different from the above? And how could it live up to the Elder Scrolls single-player world most of us know and love?


    • Is GW2 really any different?


    • What is the future of innovation for MMORPGs; or do we have everything we can possibly, except graphics will just get better?


    • Having missed these games in their prime, how were UO and SWG different from the above (1)-(3) (if they were)


     


    EDIT: You might be able to add some kind of simulation option like the Sims, where you get a house (a lot of people would probably go for player housing, but no devs seem to want to go for it for some reason), you can dress up ( lot of people like cosmetic items and pets), and socialize. Is this a possibility? Have any games done this? Let's call it:


     


    (4) Simulation + other people -- This contains (1)-(3) above, as well as the choice to stay in a city, have a house, do quests in town and level up your sim/avatar. Is this a possible future for MMORPGs? Is it feasible? How would it look?


     


     

     mmorpgs are not condusive to teamwork and communication.  There is no us vs them vs them concept which further pushes players to solo, form elitest cliques, and overall, to not give a crap about the community.  There is no sense of community in the instanced experience either, because again, why bother talking to anyone you will never see again?  Who cares about that Tauren paladin, Sith Warrior, Norn Ranger with your exact pet and gear, when they aren't even anyone you will ever see again? 

     

    This is the fault of the developing companies NOT the players.  They have created fast food in an mmorpg market, i.e., a drive through option for an easy feed into pvp and pve with little to no meaning and a waitress you will never remember.

     

    Even when I play Dark Age of Camelot in a pvp non-instanced Battleground, where players really have to stay together, I am hard pressed to get anyone to type a reply for just about anything.  It plain sucks and is an example of how even a good game with lots of community history can go the way of the toilet.

     

    Will this ever change?  Nope.

    image
  • DrakxiiDrakxii Waxahachie, TXPosts: 594Member

    Originally posted by Comaf

    Originally posted by TROLL_HARD

    A lot of people have been complaining for the last couple of years that MMORPGs produced now are stale. I have been playing a lot of Skyrim for the last couple of days and thinking about how it is different to play a single-player game.

     

    Obviously, MMORPGs are meant to be played with others. As far as I can tell, there have basically been two things you can do:

     

    (1) PvE -- Since there are other people playing, you need stronger enemies (bosses) and a motivation (loot). So there is the level up to learn your class and then raid for "endgame." You gain levels (and/or better gear through loot drops). You can have a bit of PvP in instanced "battlegrounds."

     

    (2) PvP -- The other thing you can do with lots of people. Some MMORPGs are centered around this: Darkfall, Mortal Online, EVE, etc. They have a bit of PvE for when people need resources or to take a break. You either gain levels, or level up skills. These are for groups of people to fight other groups in clans, guilds, factions, or realms for whatever political or economic reasons.

     

    Recently, in an attempt to dodge the charge of not innovating, some games are going to a seeming third option of:

     

    (3) Dynamic Events -- But this is really a masked form of raid (Rift, with raid rifts), which is more spontaneous, quicker, and maybe more convenient: e.g., rifts, public quests. Or they can be PvP, like the PvP rifts in Rift. I'm not sure what GW2 is going to do here. Is this really a third category? Or is it a form of (1) and (2) either separetly or hybridized?

     

    Here are the questions I have: 

     



    • What else can you do in an MMORPG? 


    • How might an Elder Scrolls MMORPG possibly be different from the above? And how could it live up to the Elder Scrolls single-player world most of us know and love?


    • Is GW2 really any different?


    • What is the future of innovation for MMORPGs; or do we have everything we can possibly, except graphics will just get better?


    • Having missed these games in their prime, how were UO and SWG different from the above (1)-(3) (if they were)


     


    EDIT: You might be able to add some kind of simulation option like the Sims, where you get a house (a lot of people would probably go for player housing, but no devs seem to want to go for it for some reason), you can dress up ( lot of people like cosmetic items and pets), and socialize. Is this a possibility? Have any games done this? Let's call it:


     


    (4) Simulation + other people -- This contains (1)-(3) above, as well as the choice to stay in a city, have a house, do quests in town and level up your sim/avatar. Is this a possible future for MMORPGs? Is it feasible? How would it look?


     


     

     mmorpgs are not condusive to teamwork and communication.  There is no us vs them vs them concept which further pushes players to solo, form elitest cliques, and overall, to not give a crap about the community.  There is no sense of community in the instanced experience either, because again, why bother talking to anyone you will never see again?  Who cares about that Tauren paladin, Sith Warrior, Norn Ranger with your exact pet and gear, when they aren't even anyone you will ever see again? 

     

    This is the fault of the developing companies NOT the players.  They have created fast food in an mmorpg market, i.e., a drive through option for an easy feed into pvp and pve with little to no meaning and a waitress you will never remember.

     

    Even when I play Dark Age of Camelot in a pvp non-instanced Battleground, where players really have to stay together, I am hard pressed to get anyone to type a reply for just about anything.  It plain sucks and is an example of how even a good game with lots of community history can go the way of the toilet.

     

    Will this ever change?  Nope.

    I knew who I was fighting in SWG and even in early WOW, both on myside and on enemies'.  Since then... not so much.

    I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.

  • honourswordhonoursword MarsPosts: 82Member

    It actually looks like we could be getting an Elder Scrolls MMO. Take a look:

    http://www.tomsguide.com/us/ZeniMax-Bethesda-Elder-Scrolls-Online-MMO,news-14481.html

    Only a rumour so take it as you will but this isn't the only website reporting this.

  • EmwynEmwyn MoatshirePosts: 546Member

    Originally posted by honoursword

    It actually looks like we could be getting an Elder Scrolls MMO. Take a look:

    http://www.tomsguide.com/us/ZeniMax-Bethesda-Elder-Scrolls-Online-MMO,news-14481.html

    Only a rumour so take it as you will but this isn't the only website reporting this.

    I've heard the rumour. My fingers are crossed!

    the poster formerly known as melangel :P

  • GeeTeeEffOhGeeTeeEffOh Newington, CTPosts: 731Member


    Originally posted by Melangel

    Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh

    It's not like we don't have a shinning example of what happens when a HUGE name company takes a very popular SPRPG title with a very well known IP and convert it into a very expensive to produce MMORPG.
    Ok help me out GeeTee. I need a hint. FYI I had one cup of coffee today not 2. Also I slept half the day because I forgot to change my clocks. Not cool. Now my brain is working at half speed
    Wondering if you mean Skyrim. Which I HOPE HAPPENS! And if it happens I hope they don't forget why people LOVE it.

    My post in a roundabout way is saying that just because you have what appears to be all the components of a successful game, does not mean that is what you will get.

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