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So when did Real Money Trading become okay?

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  • GeeTeeEffOhGeeTeeEffOh Newington, CTPosts: 731Member

    Originally posted by whisperwynd

    Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh

    I will never ever accept that cash shops are good for a game...Ever.

    there are varying degrees of "bad" but they all are.

    My comment about ANet was a bit of sarcasm directed at the fanbois for GW2. And yes there are threads out there where thay have actually come out and stated they think it will be a good thing because it will control the gold sellers......lol.

    That's funny when EVERYONE's a gold seller now.

    Buy a gem, trade a gem, aquire a gem...yp you participated in gold selling....just that this time it's sanctioned so it's OK.

    Of course it's OK, it was put in by Anet.

    The reasons for/against are just opinions by those polarized about the issue.

    Because you think it's not OK does not make it so for all. It's simply your opinion and should be respected as such.

     

    It's OK because it's the best thing for ANet/NCSoft. Not necessarily the players of GW2.

  • niceguy3978niceguy3978 Gainesville, FLPosts: 2,000Member

    Originally posted by Muntz

    Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh


    Originally posted by Muntz


    Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh


    Originally posted by Muntz


    Originally posted by niceguy3978

    It became ok the second the GW2 devblog said you would be able to buy gems with cash and buy gold from other players with gems.  Well for many at least, there are still some that you see in the GW2 forums protesting this or voicing their concerns with it.  Me, I've always been ok with it, but I always felt myself to be a minority in this, at least until the announcement from GW2.

    Didn't Eve already do this? So, why hasn't it been an on going rant on the Eve forums? What made it not OK for GW2? 

    Becaue EVE has the biggest currency sink in any MMO. It's called PVP.

    So, a game with out such PvP can not have a large enough currency sink? 

    You asked why it's not a big deal in EVE. I told you why....I have no idea what gold sinks will be in GW2. I hope it's got heavy ones. Because there will be a lot of gold trading going on.

    So RMT was OK before "The moment ANet announced GW2 would have it."  It certainly became more controversial when ANet announced it. Maybe because we can all speculate on how good or bad it will be. Don't get me wrong it's fun and leads to many a long discussion thread. 

    Bullsh*t.  Eve got blasted for opening their cs to the point that they had to have a "summit" about it with people within the game.  The eve forums and the forums here went apeshit over it.

    Edit: I have never seen such a defense for RMT that the GW2 fans have put forth.  Remember WoW's sparkle ponies?  Holy hell, you would have thought they were selling the epic weapon of godliness.  I've never seen RMT defended to the extent that it has been for this game.

    2nd edit:  I should also point out that I have no problem with what anet is doing.  It doesn't bother me at all.  I use to think that I was in a minority on this issue, but since GW2 announced this it went from something that was bad to even mention to something worth defending.

  • whisperwyndwhisperwynd montreal, QCPosts: 1,479Member

    Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh

    Originally posted by whisperwynd

     

    Of course it's OK, it was put in by Anet.

    The reasons for/against are just opinions by those polarized about the issue.

    Because you think it's not OK does not make it so for all. It's simply your opinion and should be respected as such.

     

    It's OK because it's the best thing for ANet/NCSoft. Not necessarily the players of GW2.

    See? That's your perspective because as obvious to this and many other threads, not all the players agree. Some like it, while I could care less since I've never bought anything from them anyway.

    If it hurts the game in the future, only those that have invested in it will suffer. Those that won't even buy it should have nothing to worry about, even less to fret over.

  • MuntzMuntz Minneapolis, MNPosts: 332Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by whisperwynd

    Originally posted by Muntz

    So RMT was OK before "The moment ANet announced GW2 would have it."  It certainly became more controversial when ANet announced it. Maybe because we can all speculate on how good or bad it will be. Don't get me wrong it's fun and leads to many a long discussion thread. 

    Actually this 'debate' has been going on for years. Nothing new there.

    Every so often it sparks up and the division of the Fors/Against rise up like the tide and argue it.

    Nothing wrong with it, it's what forums are for, IMO.  image

    true enough

  • GeeTeeEffOhGeeTeeEffOh Newington, CTPosts: 731Member

    Originally posted by whisperwynd

    Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh


    Originally posted by whisperwynd

     

    Of course it's OK, it was put in by Anet.

    The reasons for/against are just opinions by those polarized about the issue.

    Because you think it's not OK does not make it so for all. It's simply your opinion and should be respected as such.

     

    It's OK because it's the best thing for ANet/NCSoft. Not necessarily the players of GW2.

    See? That's your perspective because as obvious to this and many other threads, not all the players agree. Some like it, while I could care less since I've never bought anything from them anyway.

    If it hurts the game in the future, only those that have invested in it will suffer. Those that won't even buy it should have nothing to worry about, even less to fret over.

    I can't argue.

    But I won't call a big steaming turd in the middle of the dining room table a "cernter piece"  that's just how I see Cash Shops.

  • solarinesolarine IstanbulPosts: 1,203Member

    If it's RMT, it's not a "don't buy if you don't like it" issue. It's more of a "don't play if you don't like it" issue, because it's pervasive and it surely does effect you. So as more and more games do RMT, players who dislike RMT are running out of games to play. Hence the resentment.

    When you go and pay real money to get in-game money, that's an unfair advantage, plain and simple. Really, how is it fair; there's going to be nothing worthy in terms of gameplay that you can buy with in-game currency? Nothing you can buy with gold is going to effect your gameplay? That's absurd. Even if you can buy buff food with game currency that you bought with real money, that's unfair advantage right there.

    EVE has Plex that you can turn into money pretty quickly and it *surely* gives you an advantage. It doesn't turn you into a killer or even make you a better player on the spot, but it makes it possible for you to get better gear faster or come back more quickly after getting killed.

    Next we'll have quiz shows where you can buy out "choices" with real money. :P

    (But then, hey, maybe we already do, I don't watch TV)

     

  • whisperwyndwhisperwynd montreal, QCPosts: 1,479Member

    Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh

    I can't argue.

    But I won't call a big steaming turd in the middle of the dining room table a "cernter piece"  that's just how I see Cash Shops.

    No need to argue, it's a discussion.

    However, if you've been following a little on science, you'd know the japanese have been experimenting with 'turd' as a food source..FYI

    http://www.dailytech.com/Japanese+Make+Delicious+Nourishing+Steaks+From+Human+Feces/article21932.htm 

     

    Food for thought. image

  • evictonevicton Warren, PAPosts: 398Member

    Originally posted by RefMinor

    Originally posted by Muntz

    Originally posted by niceguy3978

    It became ok the second the GW2 devblog said you would be able to buy gems with cash and buy gold from other players with gems.  Well for many at least, there are still some that you see in the GW2 forums protesting this or voicing their concerns with it.  Me, I've always been ok with it, but I always felt myself to be a minority in this, at least until the announcement from GW2.

    Didn't Eve already do this? So, why hasn't it been an on going rant on the Eve forums? What made it not OK for GW2? 

     

    For plex, because the hardcore veterans got to play for free as the Plex(gems) could be used for gametime(expansions) so there was a trade off in real cash terms. For the p2W cash shop, Eve players had a virtual riot and quit in droves to stop it, CCP had to stop their company expanding and back down, if only GW2 fans had the decency to do something similar rather than suddenly all cheer "Hurrah, we love cash shops they are brilliant, thank you so much". It's an embarrassment.

    This. I find it amusing how many people are cheering it on, and its always the 'you don't have to buy it you can play for free' argument that amuses me the most. It might be true to a point, but if noone is buying there will be consenquences and those come in one word, NCSoft. They own arena net, and this game just doesn't need to do 'well'. This games devolopment may not be tor big, but I can't see this game being in devolopment for as long as it has costing less then aion. I would guess it cost significantly more then aion and if gw2 cash shop does not out perform, both aion and l2 cash shops there is going to be an intervention. All the box sales are going to do is give it a 'grace period' before the cash shop needs to start bringing in the real profits.

  • GeeTeeEffOhGeeTeeEffOh Newington, CTPosts: 731Member

    Originally posted by whisperwynd

    Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh

    I can't argue.

    But I won't call a big steaming turd in the middle of the dining room table a "cernter piece"  that's just how I see Cash Shops.

    No need to argue, it's a discussion.

    However, if you've been following a little on science, you'd know the japanese have been experimenting with 'turd' as a food source..FYI

    http://www.dailytech.com/Japanese+Make+Delicious+Nourishing+Steaks+From+Human+Feces/article21932.htm 

     

    Food for thought. image

    HAHA!!!!

    Touche

    Edit 1: Where on Earth did dig up that?....Never mind..I don't think I want to know.

  • MephsterMephster Tyria, NJPosts: 1,188Member

     Blame developers all you want but the bottom line is people accept it. If it was such a bad thing then perhaps people would not buy from the cash shop to send a message but they don't.

    Grim Dawn, the next great action rpg!

    http://www.grimdawn.com/

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    I think this whole topic falls squarly into the purveiw of the "back in my day" clause:

     

    When did it become okay for candy to cost more than a nickle?

    When did it become okay for the internet to be charged a flat fee per month rather than hourly like in the beginning?

    When did it become okay to have unlimited talking/texting plans for cell phones?

    When did it become okay to feature all-you-can-eat buffets?

    When did it become okay to put caps on bandwidth usage?

    When did it become okay to stream all the movies/TV you want for a monthly flat rate?

     

    The future marches on.

    Things change.

    Markets change.

    Business models change.

    Personally? I like the subscription based business model for MMOs - but that doesn't mean I'm adverse to trying something new for a game I'm really excited about.

  • Deron_BarakDeron_Barak Portland, ORPosts: 1,136Member

    @OP

    It's not okay for a P2P game to sell additional items that have an in-game advantage IMO.  They can still do it but I don't think it's right.  Pets, Mounts, visual only clothing, etc. these things are borderline okay IMO.  Reason being they are taking sub money up front to make something you have to pay for additionally.  As time goes on the item shop might support itself but only the company's financial department would know that.

    When 3rd party RMT traders made gold selling a lucrative business the ball started rolling.  The game software we buy and sub we pay does not make the game "ours".  We rent the entertainment even though it feels like our property because we spend so much time on our characters.  The IP belongs to the developers (or parent company of) so if anyone is going to be making real money off the game apart from box/sub it should be that entity.

    There are two subjects going on here.  3rd party RMT for gold is vastly different than a company item shop.

    Just not worth my time anymore.

  • PalladinPalladin Atlanta, GAPosts: 426Member

    I don't mind if people are allowed to buy into the game at the lvl cap...actually I think this is a great Idea for casual players who have no intersted in the leveling process.

     

    My problem with a cash buy in to a game is when the publishers are selling uber gear only available in the cash shop and not to general play accounts.

     

    As long as cash buy ins and general play accounts are equal its all good in my opinion.

     

    I will not play any game where the cash shop is selling uber items not available in general play. A perfect example is Aika, Ruins of Magic(pay to win ). Played them both got spanked by PKs with cash shot only gear and quit playing both.

    AMD Phenum II x4 3.6Ghz 975 black edition
    8 gig Ram
    Radeon 4870

  • Four0SixFour0Six Missoula, MTPosts: 1,181Member Uncommon

    To claim that "vanity" items, even xp and recovery boost scrolls, are the same as the spamming gold sellers is far far far from the truth.

    To be honest the chance to only put the moiney I deem to be worth spending, into my game time is fantastic in my view.

    I used to get way more than $15 dollars a month of game play, but now I have a full time job, wife, child, and house to take care of. I cringe when I spend my sub fees.

    Let me buy a character slot here, a xp boost here, some bag slots, maybe some vanity items on occasion. That way I pay ONLY what I want, and deem to be worth the cost.

     

     

    On the subject of "my guild is insisting I have what ever CS item to do what ever instance or whatever".........SERIOUSLY???? Grow up, quit said guild of jerks, stop being whiney.

  • Rhianni32Rhianni32 Denver, COPosts: 222Member

    Originally posted by solarine

    When you go and pay real money to get in-game money, that's an unfair advantage, plain and simple. Really, how is it fair; there's going to be nothing worthy in terms of gameplay that you can buy with in-game currency? Nothing you can buy with gold is going to effect your gameplay? That's absurd. Even if you can buy buff food with game currency that you bought with real money, that's unfair advantage right there.

    EVE has Plex that you can turn into money pretty quickly and it *surely* gives you an advantage. It doesn't turn you into a killer or even make you a better player on the spot, but it makes it possible for you to get better gear faster or come back more quickly after getting killed.

    Next we'll have quiz shows where you can buy out "choices" with real money. :P

    (But then, hey, maybe we already do, I don't watch TV)

     

    its fair because all players and accounts have the CHOICE to do it.  If you do not want to buy things that is certainly fine but then you cant cry about it not being fair.

    How is it fair that some gamers have the most expensive latest and greatest hardware giving them an advantage? Shall we deny any computer from connecting to the game above minimum specs?

    There are varying degrees of network connections and speeds shall we install throttles to slow things down?

    How is it fair that someone without a job or responsibilities gets to play 10 hours a day while others do not?

    Those people claiming RTM isnt fair are just saying they want everyone to play their way. Which is fine but at least have the courtesy to say it instead of painting a false picture of equality and justice. Its a freaking video game not human rights.

  • Rhianni32Rhianni32 Denver, COPosts: 222Member

    Originally posted by Mephster

     Blame developers all you want but the bottom line is people accept it. If it was such a bad thing then perhaps people would not buy from the cash shop to send a message but they don't.

    Thats pretty much it. People will send a message to Arenanet one way or the other by how many gems are sold. 

  • RequiamerRequiamer ???Posts: 2,034Member

    Its still not ok to me at all. And yes i did pay in some p2w games too (that are far worst that the one the op mention), probably like most of us.

    And it is not ok at all for the majority of the gamers. AFAIK all the studies and data published about this aspect all point an average of 10% consumer using cash shop regularly (and the poll don't fail here), but they generate huge amount of profit.

    Its not hard to see, they actually get as much profit from few virtual items (60$ isn't much in any cash shop) as they get from the whole damn game, so the ratio cost/profit is pretty obvious. You just have to watch from their point of view and everything is crystal clear. They are duplicating their income with a snap of finger, anyone that ever modded a game know how easy it is to create new nice items in an already made game, even people with 2 hours of coding lesson can do it in few hours. So you see the ratio, one or 2 coder working few days on a item generate as much revenue as the entire development team for few years. That's just amazing isn't it?

    At this point its pretty clear whatever argument you'll bring won't do shit about the affair.

    I don't think we will be able to get rid of this crap any time soon guys, so prepare for a very long and tedious fight. One of those so many "is already lost fight".

  • fenistilfenistil GliwicePosts: 3,005Member

    Originally posted by Rhianni32

    Originally posted by Mephster

     Blame developers all you want but the bottom line is people accept it. If it was such a bad thing then perhaps people would not buy from the cash shop to send a message but they don't.

    Thats pretty much it. People will send a message to Arenanet one way or the other by how many gems are sold. 

    Agreed.

     

    I am just sad that I don't have options to play without legal RMT in many games.

     

    Separate no rmt servers / microtransactions (with higher sub for example) would be great.

  • Rhianni32Rhianni32 Denver, COPosts: 222Member

    Originally posted by BadSpock

    I think this whole topic falls squarly into the purveiw of the "back in my day" clause:

     

    When did it become okay for candy to cost more than a nickle?

    When did it become okay for the internet to be charged a flat fee per month rather than hourly like in the beginning?

    When did it become okay to have unlimited talking/texting plans for cell phones?

    When did it become okay to feature all-you-can-eat buffets?

    When did it become okay to put caps on bandwidth usage?

    When did it become okay to stream all the movies/TV you want for a monthly flat rate?

     

    The future marches on.

    Things change.

    Markets change.

    Business models change.

    Personally? I like the subscription based business model for MMOs - but that doesn't mean I'm adverse to trying something new for a game I'm really excited about.

    Well said. I see this same fear/anger issue of "thats not how MMOs are supposed ot be!" when change comes up with every alteration of what used to be...

    Corpse runs, exp loss on death, player controlled mounts for faster overland movement, lfg features, instance queues, cross server grouping/pvp/instancing. being able to respec your character choices at all.

    It goes on and on.

     

  • SythionSythion Salem, ORPosts: 422Member

    Originally posted by solarine

    If it's RMT, it's not a "don't buy if you don't like it" issue. It's more of a "don't play if you don't like it" issue, because it's pervasive and it surely does effect you. So as more and more games do RMT, players who dislike RMT are running out of games to play. Hence the resentment.

     

    What game doesn't have RMT? Illegal RMT counts, because it has the same in game effect.

    image
  • Rhianni32Rhianni32 Denver, COPosts: 222Member

    Originally posted by fenistil

    Originally posted by Rhianni32


    Originally posted by Mephster

     Blame developers all you want but the bottom line is people accept it. If it was such a bad thing then perhaps people would not buy from the cash shop to send a message but they don't.

    Thats pretty much it. People will send a message to Arenanet one way or the other by how many gems are sold. 

    Agreed.

     

    I am just sad that I don't have options to play without legal RMT in many games.

     

    Separate no rmt servers / microtransactions (with higher sub for example) would be great.

    Hey. thats a good idea. That would be another way to send a message to Arenanet.

  • whisperwyndwhisperwynd montreal, QCPosts: 1,479Member

    Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh

    Originally posted by whisperwynd


    Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh

    I can't argue.

    But I won't call a big steaming turd in the middle of the dining room table a "cernter piece"  that's just how I see Cash Shops.

    No need to argue, it's a discussion.

    However, if you've been following a little on science, you'd know the japanese have been experimenting with 'turd' as a food source..FYI

    http://www.dailytech.com/Japanese+Make+Delicious+Nourishing+Steaks+From+Human+Feces/article21932.htm 

     

    Food for thought. image

    HAHA!!!!

    Touche

    Edit 1: Where on Earth did dig up that?....Never mind..I don't think I want to know.

    It was something I saw last week on Discovery, when you mentioned that steaming pile, it just brought it to mind.

  • Rhianni32Rhianni32 Denver, COPosts: 222Member

    Originally posted by Sythion

    Originally posted by solarine

    If it's RMT, it's not a "don't buy if you don't like it" issue. It's more of a "don't play if you don't like it" issue, because it's pervasive and it surely does effect you. So as more and more games do RMT, players who dislike RMT are running out of games to play. Hence the resentment.

     

    What game doesn't have RMT? Illegal RMT counts, because it has the same in game effect.

    Thats silly. When something is made illegal it magically goes away and has no impact on other players. Or at least when a player losses in a pvp match they won't be blaming it on RMT from Arenanet.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    It is their game. They can define cheating anyway they want to. If you don't like it, you can always vote with your wallet.

    I wouldn't care less as long as the game is fun. In fact, may be i can make some money while i play Diablo 3 .. win-win!

  • CalamarCalamar IgualadaPosts: 116Member

    I have never been a fan of RMT (Like all of us, I have my reasons, believes and theories about RMT) by the company or third parties,  but I see it like something that instead of going away will become the next "standard" mmorpg feature.

    You know, like a prostate exam: The finger goes with the pack.

     

     

     

     

     

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