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Monthly Sub vs.Cash Shop

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  • UnlightUnlight Ottawa, ONPosts: 2,540Member

    Originally posted by Madimorga

    Originally posted by Kyleran


    Originally posted by rojo6934


    Originally posted by brody71

    i hate the whole cash shop idea now.  what if millions of people who play free to play, pay to win games start asking for power items in Gw2. 

    what if sub based mmos started adding power items on their cash shop and paid services?

    edit: "for $5-10 extra bucks monthly you can have cooldown free skills!".... can you imagine? lol

    gimmie b2p or gimmie death. no sub needed

    Don't look now, but those days are almost upon us.  I'm pretty sure CCP is investigating ways to pull this off with their new WOD title and they won't be the last.

    Ultimately I think we'll have the ultimate hybrid, titles with multiple payment options including B2P, F2P, Sub fees all rolled into one.

    Actually we already have a prototype, EQ2.  They offer the game almost totally F2P, however to unlock all character races (and classes?) you need to pay them something, and there are tons of cosmetic items for sale in the cash shop, (and some very uncosmetic mounts) and if you like you can pay them a sub fee and buy stuff from the cash shop. They'll even sell you a box copy of the latest version if you really want to play the newest content.

    And they say SOE isn't innovative.

    image

     

    I'm very worried that The Secret World will take interest in the diamond for gold thing.  And that is going to be buy the box, sub, and cash shop.  If they do, I won't touch it.

    Box, sub AND cash shop.  That's far more heinous than anything that ArenaNet is putting in their shop.  Interesting that they seem to get a pass on this.  Imagine the outcry if GW2 was charging a subscription.

  • WhiteLanternWhiteLantern Nevada, MOPosts: 2,732Member

    Originally posted by Unlight

    Originally posted by Madimorga


    Originally posted by Kyleran


    Originally posted by rojo6934


    Originally posted by brody71

    i hate the whole cash shop idea now.  what if millions of people who play free to play, pay to win games start asking for power items in Gw2. 

    what if sub based mmos started adding power items on their cash shop and paid services?

    edit: "for $5-10 extra bucks monthly you can have cooldown free skills!".... can you imagine? lol

    gimmie b2p or gimmie death. no sub needed

    Don't look now, but those days are almost upon us.  I'm pretty sure CCP is investigating ways to pull this off with their new WOD title and they won't be the last.

    Ultimately I think we'll have the ultimate hybrid, titles with multiple payment options including B2P, F2P, Sub fees all rolled into one.

    Actually we already have a prototype, EQ2.  They offer the game almost totally F2P, however to unlock all character races (and classes?) you need to pay them something, and there are tons of cosmetic items for sale in the cash shop, (and some very uncosmetic mounts) and if you like you can pay them a sub fee and buy stuff from the cash shop. They'll even sell you a box copy of the latest version if you really want to play the newest content.

    And they say SOE isn't innovative.

    image

     

    I'm very worried that The Secret World will take interest in the diamond for gold thing.  And that is going to be buy the box, sub, and cash shop.  If they do, I won't touch it.

    Box, sub AND cash shop.  That's far more heinous than anything that ArenaNet is putting in their shop.  Interesting that they seem to get a pass on this.  Imagine the outcry if GW2 was charging a subscription.

    I don't think they'll be getting a pass once they reveal their final plans. Remember, STO did all 3 at launch and that was a huge blowup.

    I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

  • MadimorgaMadimorga Atlanta, GAPosts: 2,014Member Common

    Originally posted by WhiteLantern

    Box, sub AND cash shop.  That's far more heinous than anything that ArenaNet is putting in their shop.  Interesting that they seem to get a pass on this.  Imagine the outcry if GW2 was charging a subscription.

    I don't think they'll be getting a pass once they reveal their final plans. Remember, STO did all 3 at launch and that was a huge blowup.

    They'll get a pass if the game is great, the cash shop is vanity items and bank space, character slots and so on AND so long as they don't have a gems for gold system.  The gems for gold pisses me off in GW2 and that's Buy to Play, no way in hell am I putting up with it in a sub game.  I won't be too happy about xp pots offered at launch, either, but it's the gems to gold that really pisses me off, don't do it, Funcom!

    image

    I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

    ~Albert Einstein

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid hell, NJPosts: 6,778Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Madimorga

    Originally posted by WhiteLantern


    Box, sub AND cash shop.  That's far more heinous than anything that ArenaNet is putting in their shop.  Interesting that they seem to get a pass on this.  Imagine the outcry if GW2 was charging a subscription.

    I don't think they'll be getting a pass once they reveal their final plans. Remember, STO did all 3 at launch and that was a huge blowup.

    They'll get a pass if the game is great, the cash shop is vanity items and bank space, character slots and so on AND so long as they don't have a gems for gold system.  The gems for gold pisses me off in GW2 and that's Buy to Play, no way in hell am I putting up with it in a sub game.  I won't be too happy about xp pots offered at launch, either, but it's the gems to gold that really pisses me off, don't do it, Funcom!

    i dont know about the gem / gold exchange and funcom, but if im not wrong they announced RMT way before than GW2 did. So most likely they will have a similar system of exchange. Again, i may be wrong but yeah they said they'd have it (rmt)

    image
  • mazutmazut SofiaPosts: 885Member Uncommon

    I suggest Anet to put the option for voluntary Subscription. If people want to pay, why not :D Let them pay and be happy and at peace. Why takeing their security? It starting to feel like they are robed ;/

  • MadimorgaMadimorga Atlanta, GAPosts: 2,014Member Common

    Originally posted by rojo6934

    Originally posted by Madimorga


    Originally posted by WhiteLantern


    Box, sub AND cash shop.  That's far more heinous than anything that ArenaNet is putting in their shop.  Interesting that they seem to get a pass on this.  Imagine the outcry if GW2 was charging a subscription.

    I don't think they'll be getting a pass once they reveal their final plans. Remember, STO did all 3 at launch and that was a huge blowup.

    They'll get a pass if the game is great, the cash shop is vanity items and bank space, character slots and so on AND so long as they don't have a gems for gold system.  The gems for gold pisses me off in GW2 and that's Buy to Play, no way in hell am I putting up with it in a sub game.  I won't be too happy about xp pots offered at launch, either, but it's the gems to gold that really pisses me off, don't do it, Funcom!

    i dont know about the gem / gold exchange and funcom, but if im not wrong they announced RMT way before than GW2 did. So most likely they will have a similar system of exchange. Again, i may be wrong but yeah they said they'd have it (rmt)

    I knew they'd have a cash shop along with the sub and box, was willing to accept it, too, because let's face it, $15/mo was the standard how many years ago?  And don't games cost far more to make now, even if they may not cost more to maintain on servers?

     

    But what I won't accept is a screwy economy in a game I'm already paying a sub to play.  And gems to gold will screw with ingame economies just like gold farmers do.  I detest that sort of nonsense and if I'm paying a sub, up with it I will not put!

    image

    I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

    ~Albert Einstein

  • Dream_ChaserDream_Chaser BGPosts: 1,043Member

    In my opinion, subscriptions are a massive con.

    The way I look at it is that in 3 months, one might pay $45 to see a dungeon added to their game. With a cash shop, that same dungeon would be put up on tthere for $10. Not only that, but I am guaranteed some form of content for my money whenever I spend, and I can choose what I want.

    Subscriptions are like buying fifteen dollar's worth of thin air from the respective MMO's imaginary cash shop every month. I would rather spend $10 every now and then and actually get something that isn't thin air.

  • darkhalf357xdarkhalf357x Brooklyn, NYPosts: 1,164Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Madimorga

    Originally posted by Adalwulff

    Originally posted by Madimorga

    Originally posted by illorion

    Originally posted by Madimorga

    Originally posted by Pangentor

    Must suck to have so little self-control that paying $150 or more per year is better than optional services and goods.

    It sucks when someone with no self control spends $150 a month and then has an advantage over someone who doesn't in terms of leveling speed, PvE, and especially PvP.

     

    Now someone is going to say, Guild Wars 2 is different, no cash shop item, no leveling speed, no gear, no gold will give someone else and advantage.  To which I say, we'll see, but I'm not buying it.  I and several others have already pointed out ways that people with money to burn could have an advantage over other players. 

    The only way i can see an advantage would be level speed "maybe". Gear stats cap so there will be no advantages in PvE. Leveling speed isn't that big a deal. Took forever to level a priest versus a pally in wow but people still played priest and didn't complain that they were broken because they leveled slower

    If gold can buy you anything in this game worth having, then leveling speed is an advantage as long as level 80 mobs drop better vendor trash than level 1 mobs.

     

    I already said it, I'll say it again.  My plan is to never spend anything beyond the initial box cost and whatever items will max me out quickest, which means I need gold and lots of it, and fast, so I can buy diamonds while inflation is low (assuming diamonds don't have price controls).  Getting to 80 faster than the vast majority of players will be an advantage to me.  Again, assuming there is anything in the AH worth having.  And if there isn't?  Well, why bother with gold or crafting at all? 

    So the advantage you see, is another player getting to the AH before you?

    If gold has value, I intend to sell it for diamonds plus sell my drops for gold on the AH, therefore getting the diamond for gold sellers coming and going (hey, if we're going to pit your wallet against my time, I'm making sure your wallet loses). 

     

    Past experience tells me these diamonds will sell cheaper at first because there won't be as much gold floating around, so the more gold I have at the beginning, the more diamonds I can buy to sell for way more gold later and to use for costumes, inventory, character slots, and probably expansions down the road.

     

    Now imagine a group of gold farmers doing this, or even large guilds.  The first people with large amounts of gold will fare better than everyone else and will determine much of the economy in game.  To some extent this would have happened anyway, of course, but I would not have been interested in the market at all in this game if it weren't for the diamond thing.  Now it's a point of pride with me and a challenge not to be That Westerner.  You know the one, the Westerner with oveflowing pockets who can't be arsed to think for herself in a game, much less do anything the hard way, much less use her  brain to figure out how to get what she wants in a game without breaking out her real life wallet.



    Why am I so open about this?  Because if you don't like this cash shop but you still want to play the game, I want to encourage you not to be That Westerner.

     

    I guess what I dont understand is where does this 'extra' gold come from to cause inflation.  From what I have read, gold is a closed system (no additional gold goes in after launch) thus the price of diamonds will normalize as if it costs too much gold there will be no demand (would be cheaper to buy with RL cash).

    How do you figure inflation fits in here?  Perhaps I'm missing something.

    image
  • Dream_ChaserDream_Chaser BGPosts: 1,043Member

    Originally posted by mazut

    I suggest Anet to put the option for voluntary Subscription. If people want to pay, why not :D Let them pay and be happy and at peace. Why takeing their security? It starting to feel like they are robed ;/

    The moment you add a subscription, you have to add methods to your game to keep people playing. It means that you need the 'carrot' (which GW2 doesn't need and happily ignores right now) in order to entice people into spending months and months of their life grinding.

    No subscription equals no carrot, no padding, no enforced grinding.

  • darkhalf357xdarkhalf357x Brooklyn, NYPosts: 1,164Member Uncommon

    In terms of the thread... I'm in favor of NO sub and cash shop.  Lets me control how much money I want to spend and WHEN.  I wish all MMOs went to (mature) cash shops - where I wouldnt have to purchase something that makes me stronger, or allows me to continue the game.

    I find in these models I do end up spending more because I'm in control of the spending.  With subs I feel cheated if I dont play enough days per month.

    image
  • ExilorExilor Las Palmas de Gran CanariaPosts: 391Member

    Originally posted by Dream_Chaser

    Originally posted by mazut

    I suggest Anet to put the option for voluntary Subscription. If people want to pay, why not :D Let them pay and be happy and at peace. Why takeing their security? It starting to feel like they are robed ;/

    The moment you add a subscription, you have to add methods to your game to keep people playing. It means that you need the 'carrot' (which GW2 doesn't need and happily ignores right now) in order to entice people into spending months and months of their life grinding.

    No subscription equals no carrot, no padding, no enforced grinding.

    And the moment you add "convenience" items, you have to put inconveniences to keep people buying them. Like that new "attrition mechanic" that can be waived away with cash, the repairing of equipment.

  • VengerVenger York, PAPosts: 1,318Member

    Originally posted by Pangentor

    Must suck to have so little self-control that paying $150 or more per year is better than optional services and goods.

    LOL self-control is overrated.  But what a true statement.

  • whisperwyndwhisperwynd montreal, QCPosts: 1,479Member

    Originally posted by Madimorga

    I knew they'd have a cash shop along with the sub and box, was willing to accept it, too, because let's face it, $15/mo was the standard how many years ago?  And don't games cost far more to make now, even if they may not cost more to maintain on servers?

     

    But what I won't accept is a screwy economy in a game I'm already paying a sub to play.  And gems to gold will screw with ingame economies just like gold farmers do.  I detest that sort of nonsense and if I'm paying a sub, up with it I will not put!

    You have zero proof that it will or won't screw up the ingame economy..all speculation on your part.

    You dislike a gem so much that you invent doom and gloom scenarios, yet will accept a cs in TSW?

    Sorry, but you lost credilibilty with me because your penchant for TSW seems to be showing.

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid hell, NJPosts: 6,778Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by mazut

    I suggest Anet to put the option for voluntary Subscription. If people want to pay, why not :D Let them pay and be happy and at peace. Why takeing their security? It starting to feel like they are robed ;/

    lol why add voluntary subscription if everyone (paying and non paying members) will receive the exact same things... AS i said in other post before, mind as well send monthly gifts of $15 bucks to ANET if you desire to pay lol.....

    Voluntary sub would end up adding limitations to free players, killing the buy to play purpose and throwing GW2 to its own demise.

    image
  • MadimorgaMadimorga Atlanta, GAPosts: 2,014Member Common

    Originally posted by darkhalf357x

     

     

    I guess what I dont understand is where does this 'extra' gold come from to cause inflation.  From what I have read, gold is a closed system (no additional gold goes in after launch) thus the price of diamonds will normalize as if it costs too much gold there will be no demand (would be cheaper to buy with RL cash).

    How do you figure inflation fits in here?  Perhaps I'm missing something.

    From people who would otherwise not have spent much time farming going ahead and farming in order to buy diamonds, speculate in diamonds, and otherwise mess around with the AH.

     

    I am just one person, if I'm the only one influenced by the gems to gold system, there will be no inflation, but I think a lot of people will do this, and people who want cash shop goods but don't have money for them and would otherwise have done without will certainly do this.

     

    Edit:  I predict that those who neither wish to farm nor buy diamonds to sell for gold will be very poor in this game.

     

    I will come back here and humbly admit to being wrong if this is not the case.

     

     

    image

    I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

    ~Albert Einstein

  • L0C0ManL0C0Man Puerto OrdazPosts: 1,065Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by darkhalf357x

    I guess what I dont understand is where does this 'extra' gold come from to cause inflation.  From what I have read, gold is a closed system (no additional gold goes in after launch) thus the price of diamonds will normalize as if it costs too much gold there will be no demand (would be cheaper to buy with RL cash).

    How do you figure inflation fits in here?  Perhaps I'm missing something.

    Anytime someone kills a mob that drops gold or receives it from a dynamic event, that's new gold being added to the system. In a perfect economy we would have gold sinks that take out the gold about as fast as people earn it, esentially giving a 0 inflation. That's one reason why the EVE economy works better than most MMOs, money is routinely taken out of the system as ships and cargo gets destroyed. Compare it with a system like WoW, roll a new character in an old and stablished server, and most likely you'll see heavily inflated prices on AH when compared with a recently opened server (on the other hand makes it easier to make money, I remember leveling up mining on a DK from 0, and made enough money for his epic flying mount just by gathering and selling low level ores on AH), and that's even with the massive gold sinks added later like the 5000g epic flying training. We have yet to see how many or how effective gold sinks will be on GW2, but I'd bet we will have inflation over time.

    However, since the selling gems depend on the gold made in-game, I don't see how it will cause more inflation than a gemless system like WoW or Rift. What it might cause, however, is having the same amount of gold but in the hands of fewer people (occupy tyria!!!), which sounds bad but in a way might also help curtail inflation when it comes to auction items, as the average guy would have less gold driving prices down.

     

    What can men do against such reckless hate?

  • MadimorgaMadimorga Atlanta, GAPosts: 2,014Member Common

    Originally posted by rojo6934

    Originally posted by mazut

    I suggest Anet to put the option for voluntary Subscription. If people want to pay, why not :D Let them pay and be happy and at peace. Why takeing their security? It starting to feel like they are robed ;/

    lol why add voluntary subscription if everyone (paying and non paying members) will receive the exact same things... AS i said in other post before, mind as well send monthly gifts of $15 bucks to ANET if you desire to pay lol.....

    Voluntary sub would end up adding limitations to free players, killing the buy to play purpose and throwing GW2 to its own demise.

    I will happily send Anet $15 a month.  In exchange for an isolated server group with its own WvWvW and auction house, only cosmetic items, bag space, inventory space, and character slots in its cash shop, and most important, no gem to gold trading.

    image

    I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

    ~Albert Einstein

  • romanator0romanator0 Glendora, CAPosts: 2,382Member

    Originally posted by Exilor

    Originally posted by Dream_Chaser


    Originally posted by mazut

    I suggest Anet to put the option for voluntary Subscription. If people want to pay, why not :D Let them pay and be happy and at peace. Why takeing their security? It starting to feel like they are robed ;/

    The moment you add a subscription, you have to add methods to your game to keep people playing. It means that you need the 'carrot' (which GW2 doesn't need and happily ignores right now) in order to entice people into spending months and months of their life grinding.

    No subscription equals no carrot, no padding, no enforced grinding.

    And the moment you add "convenience" items, you have to put inconveniences to keep people buying them. Like that new "attrition mechanic" that can be waived away with cash, the repairing of equipment.

    Funnily enough that new "attrition mechanic" is completely moot if you're a good enough player.

    image

  • XzenXzen Los Alamos, NMPosts: 2,607Member Common

    Originally posted by L0C0Man

    Originally posted by darkhalf357x

    I guess what I dont understand is where does this 'extra' gold come from to cause inflation.  From what I have read, gold is a closed system (no additional gold goes in after launch) thus the price of diamonds will normalize as if it costs too much gold there will be no demand (would be cheaper to buy with RL cash).

    How do you figure inflation fits in here?  Perhaps I'm missing something.

    Anytime someone kills a mob that drops gold or receives it from a dynamic event, that's new gold being added to the system. In a perfect economy we would have gold sinks that take out the gold about as fast as people earn it, esentially giving a 0 inflation. That's one reason why the EVE economy works better than most MMOs, money is routinely taken out of the system as ships and cargo gets destroyed. Compare it with a system like WoW, roll a new character in an old and stablished server, and most likely you'll see heavily inflated prices on AH when compared with a recently opened server (on the other hand makes it easier to make money, I remember leveling up mining on a DK from 0, and made enough money for his epic flying mount just by gathering and selling low level ores on AH), and that's even with the massive gold sinks added later like the 5000g epic flying training. We have yet to see how many or how effective gold sinks will be on GW2, but I'd bet we will have inflation over time.

    However, since the selling gems depend on the gold made in-game, I don't see how it will cause more inflation than a gemless system like WoW or Rift. What it might cause, however, is having the same amount of gold but in the hands of fewer people (occupy tyria!!!), which sounds bad but in a way might also help curtail inflation when it comes to auction items, as the average guy would have less gold driving prices down.

     

    Hmm what gold sinks do we have going on in GW2?

     

    Teleportation

    Gear Repair

    Vendor Items

    Re-spec cost

    Auction House Tax?

  • mazutmazut SofiaPosts: 885Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Exilor

    Originally posted by Dream_Chaser


    Originally posted by mazut

    I suggest Anet to put the option for voluntary Subscription. If people want to pay, why not :D Let them pay and be happy and at peace. Why takeing their security? It starting to feel like they are robed ;/

    The moment you add a subscription, you have to add methods to your game to keep people playing. It means that you need the 'carrot' (which GW2 doesn't need and happily ignores right now) in order to entice people into spending months and months of their life grinding.

    No subscription equals no carrot, no padding, no enforced grinding.

    And the moment you add "convenience" items, you have to put inconveniences to keep people buying them. Like that new "attrition mechanic" that can be waived away with cash, the repairing of equipment.

    Almost all MMOs have repairing system. The difference is that GW system dont degrade on sucessful hits, but on defeats only. Its better then the usual repair.

  • mazutmazut SofiaPosts: 885Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Dream_Chaser

    Originally posted by mazut

    I suggest Anet to put the option for voluntary Subscription. If people want to pay, why not :D Let them pay and be happy and at peace. Why takeing their security? It starting to feel like they are robed ;/

    The moment you add a subscription, you have to add methods to your game to keep people playing. It means that you need the 'carrot' (which GW2 doesn't need and happily ignores right now) in order to entice people into spending months and months of their life grinding.

    No subscription equals no carrot, no padding, no enforced grinding.

    Sarcasm dear fellowgamer. You are way to serious :) relax and laugh more

  • ExilorExilor Las Palmas de Gran CanariaPosts: 391Member

    Originally posted by mazut

    Almost all MMOs have repairing system. The difference is that GW system dont degrade on sucessful hits, but on defeats only. Its better then the usual repair.


    Originally posted by romanator0

    Funnily enough that new "attrition mechanic" is completely moot if you're a good enough player.

    That's not the point.

  • austriacusaustriacus limaPosts: 624Member

    Originally posted by Exilor

    Originally posted by Dream_Chaser


    Originally posted by mazut

    I suggest Anet to put the option for voluntary Subscription. If people want to pay, why not :D Let them pay and be happy and at peace. Why takeing their security? It starting to feel like they are robed ;/

    The moment you add a subscription, you have to add methods to your game to keep people playing. It means that you need the 'carrot' (which GW2 doesn't need and happily ignores right now) in order to entice people into spending months and months of their life grinding.

    No subscription equals no carrot, no padding, no enforced grinding.

    And the moment you add "convenience" items, you have to put inconveniences to keep people buying them. Like that new "attrition mechanic" that can be waived away with cash, the repairing of equipment.

    I would agree with you but the reality is that you can effectively evade the attrition mechanic altogether if you are good in the game.

    You cant bypass grinding because its based on the Luck of getting the item you desire.

  • mazutmazut SofiaPosts: 885Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Exilor

    Originally posted by mazut



    Almost all MMOs have repairing system. The difference is that GW system dont degrade on sucessful hits, but on defeats only. Its better then the usual repair.


    Originally posted by romanator0



    Funnily enough that new "attrition mechanic" is completely moot if you're a good enough player.

    That's not the point.

    Whats the point?

  • JaedorJaedor Denver, COPosts: 1,140Member Uncommon

    The only F2P + cash shop genuine success story I've seen is LOTRO's. It sounds successful from Turbine/WB's perspective and it is successful from a player perspective. It is possible to level all the way to cap without ever spending a dime of real money. Their system allows you to earn game currency while playing and that currency is the only currency used in the store. I've never seen a goldseller in all the years I've played that game, probably because there's no point.

     

    The GW2 method sounds similar in overarching concept, but allowing cash shop currency (gems) to be tradeable does sound like it opens the door to arbitrage or 3rd party goldselling of some kind. More info is needed.

     

    Re the OP, I've played both and used both. I know people who sub and spend a ton of real money every month in the store to max their toons. And I know others who are F2P and never spend a dime. I expect to play the game and will make a decision about spending money later.

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