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Monthly Sub vs.Cash Shop

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  • keinohrkeinohr BraunschweigPosts: 60Member

    Originally posted by Madimorga

    Originally posted by keinohr


    ...

    Yes, they have a monthly fee, giving them even less excuse to do what they do.  But Guild Wars 2 has no excuse, either.  I know why they're doing this.  They want people with money and credit cards to buy for the players who have neither in exchange for in game currency, hugely multiplying the profits.  To which I say, hell no!

    That's why i don't understand your point of view. You still prefer a monthly fee even though many of this games have an additional cash shop? It's just like you were saying: I prefer a MLG Gold Membership to a Single Weekend Ticket for MLG Winter Arena. As a reminder that the Gold Member had to buy a Ticket for a reduced fee.

  • whisperwyndwhisperwynd montreal, QCPosts: 1,479Member

    Originally posted by Madimorga

    You don't get it.  The reason I prefer a monthly sub is to keep other people's wallets out of my MMOs. 

     

    Never happen my friend. As much as you want it, any sub-based game you'll have the third party gold sellers and PL services.

    Just because it is 'illegal' to the game company (and that's a big maybe) it'll never stop happening. So all of your venting and preaching is about Anet doing it themselves and getting some of that cash because there will still be third party sites selling gold.

    All of your examples are useless because it'll get done one way or the other. The only issue here is the legality of it.

    All of your posts could have been summed up by one single line..."Why did Anet lower itself, in my eyes, by becoming a gold seller themselves?"

    THEN, you could have a debate on that, calling in the morality police, the ethics committee on gaming, or even the president of Anet...what have you.

     

    image

  • MadimorgaMadimorga Atlanta, GAPosts: 2,014Member Common

    Originally posted by Onomic

     

    Your way might be better for you but it is alot worse for every player that dont use money.

    Anet has included everyone, while you want to exclude people that dont use money.

    That you dont approve is ok and we all have stuff were we wont budge, but i realy hope they wont take what you and a few others want when it will affect a hugh number of people in a bad way.

    let the kids and collage people that dont have CC have a chance to get stuff without feeling excluded as long as they are willing to put some time into it. wich they will be more then happy to do as long they have the option to play for free.

    The reason I don't like the gems to gold deal is not because I'm a wicked evil woman who doesn't want poor people to play.  I'm pretty damn poor myself.  It's because of what it does to in game encomies, pve, and pvp. 

     

    I have three choices.  I can be That Westerner and buy gold from other players with gems because I'm too lazy or stupid to farm it myself, plus lap up every item in the cash shop for even more gems.  No thanks.  Pride will prevent that even if my wallet can keep up (barely) with that sort of nonsense.

     

    I can put up with more than the usual inflation on the AH by either not using it or farming my own gold so that Joe Gem Buyer and his Merry guild can diamond speculate while I spend real cash on needed upgrades like bank space, character slots, and expansions.  Nah, I don't like that option either, still makes me feel like a sucker.

     

    Option three:  I can farm my own gold for both gold and diamond speculation while also playing the hell out of the AH, probably in the company of a very large guild doing the same.  Now at least I'd feel like I'd be getting some compensation for the stupidity I'm going to have to endure thanks to this gems to gold scheme.  Everything is paid for with other people's money, and I get to feel clever for playing the system so well.  Much better.

    image

    I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

    ~Albert Einstein

  • UnlightUnlight Ottawa, ONPosts: 2,540Member

    Originally posted by Madimorga

    Originally posted by Pangentor

    Must suck to have so little self-control that paying $150 or more per year is better than optional services and goods.

    It sucks when someone with no self control spends $150 a month and then has an advantage over someone who doesn't in terms of leveling speed, PvE, and especially PvP.

     

    Now someone is going to say, Guild Wars 2 is different, no cash shop item, no leveling speed, no gear, no gold will give someone else and advantage.  To which I say, we'll see, but I'm not buying it.  I and several others have already pointed out ways that people with money to burn could have an advantage over other players. 

    Levelling speed is an issue is it?  What benefit will you gain by reaching 80, a week before me?  You'll be more powerful than me in structured PvP?  No, we're exactly the same, regardless of our nominal level.  You're stronger than me in WvW?  Perhaps, but by a narrow margin.  And if we are on the same server, great.  It makes our server stronger ... sort of.  If we're on opposite servers, so what.  You're just another invader to me.  You may have a handful of extra skills to use, but so will so many others.  You'll be just another face among many to me.  Maybe it matters in PvE.  Hmm.  No, not really.  It's all cooperative so there's no negative for me.  We can only work together.  Perhaps it has something to do with you being able to collect higher level mats than I can because you can operate in higher level zones.  True, I'll give you that.  Unless of course I just have someone SK me up for the week it would take to level myself there anyway.  I find it hard to be concerned about that.  Or maybe you want to be able to get a world first.  OK, you win.  You're also welcome to it, if they even exist in this game.  However, that will be an incentive with a very short life span.

    Levelling faster only means that you miss content on your way up, content that you can go back to do later.  I'll just be doing it earlier before you.  Oh hey, win for me!

    XP boosts = much ado about nothing.  If you want them -- if anybody wants them -- please, go for it.  The net result is you've spent real money on something that doesn't adversely affect me in any way, but benefits me because that's more money that can be used for development.

    Think about the game and it's mechanics.  Speeding to 80 gains you next to nothing.  But I'll happily encourage others to do it to serve my own self-interest.

  • MadimorgaMadimorga Atlanta, GAPosts: 2,014Member Common

    Originally posted by whisperwynd

    Originally posted by Madimorga

    You don't get it.  The reason I prefer a monthly sub is to keep other people's wallets out of my MMOs. 

     

    Never happen my friend. As much as you want it, any sub-based game you'll have the third party gold sellers and PL services.

    Just because it is 'illegal' to the game company (and that's a big maybe) it'll never stop happening. So all of your venting and preaching is about Anet doing it themselves and getting some of that cash because there will still be third party sites selling gold.

    All of your examples are useless because it'll get done one way or the other. The only issue here is the legality of it.

    All of your posts could have been summed up by one single line..."Why did Anet lower itself, in my eyes, by becoming a gold seller themselves?"

    THEN, you could have a debate on that, calling in the morality police, the ethics committee on gaming, or even the president of Anet...what have you.

     

    image

    I know other MMO companies tolerate the hell out of RMT, banning sellers but not buyers, but it's partly because of that sub they want to keep getting.  I was so hoping ANet/NCSoft would take a tougher stance on it because they don't charge a sub.

     

    You're right, I'm outraged.  Anet doesn't belong in the gold farming business.  Take the gems to gold crap out, I'll put up with the rest, even though it's definitely pay for power, if not pay to win.

    image

    I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

    ~Albert Einstein

  • GeeTeeEffOhGeeTeeEffOh Newington, CTPosts: 731Member

    Originally posted by whisperwynd

    Originally posted by Madimorga

    You don't get it.  The reason I prefer a monthly sub is to keep other people's wallets out of my MMOs. 

     

    Never happen my friend. As much as you want it, any sub-based game you'll have the third party gold sellers and PL services.

    Just because it is 'illegal' to the game company (and that's a big maybe) it'll never stop happening. So all of your venting and preaching is about Anet doing it themselves and getting some of that cash because there will still be third party sites selling gold.

    All of your examples are useless because it'll get done one way or the other. The only issue here is the legality of it.

    All of your posts could have been summed up by one single line..."Why did Anet lower itself, in my eyes, by becoming a gold seller themselves?"

    THEN, you could have a debate on that, calling in the morality police, the ethics committee on gaming, or even the president of Anet...what have you.

     

    image

    When it's against EULA only some players buy. When it's not most players will buy 

    It's a much greater impact when it's sanctioned. And the gold farmers are still there. But now they are going to have to undercut. And that throws yet another wrench in the economy.

    Also, it's not always about Pay-To-Win

    Sometimes it's about Pay-(more than you thought)-To-Play

    I love when people say...I won't pay. Well, maybe maybe not.

    But these cash shops are a psychological game.

    They are always there and always scratching at the surface of your awareness while you play.

    They want you to see others who are using them and they want you to want that they want you envious.

    Even that alone, if nothing more than forcing you into their psych war, can be a significant' PITA. One you wouldn't think of in other games.

  • XzenXzen Los Alamos, NMPosts: 2,607Member Common

    Originally posted by Madimorga

    Originally posted by whisperwynd


    Originally posted by Madimorga

    You don't get it.  The reason I prefer a monthly sub is to keep other people's wallets out of my MMOs. 

     

    Never happen my friend. As much as you want it, any sub-based game you'll have the third party gold sellers and PL services.

    Just because it is 'illegal' to the game company (and that's a big maybe) it'll never stop happening. So all of your venting and preaching is about Anet doing it themselves and getting some of that cash because there will still be third party sites selling gold.

    All of your examples are useless because it'll get done one way or the other. The only issue here is the legality of it.

    All of your posts could have been summed up by one single line..."Why did Anet lower itself, in my eyes, by becoming a gold seller themselves?"

    THEN, you could have a debate on that, calling in the morality police, the ethics committee on gaming, or even the president of Anet...what have you.

     

    image

    I know other MMO companies tolerate the hell out of RMT, banning sellers but not buyers, but it's partly because of that sub they want to keep getting.  I was so hoping ANet/NCSoft would take a tougher stance on it because they don't charge a sub.

     

    You're right, I'm outraged.  Anet doesn't belong in the gold farming business.  Take the gems to gold crap out, I'll put up with the rest, even though it's definitely pay for power, if not pay to win.

    No. We ban buyers too and or take the gold they bought away. But no matter how many we ban or how much gold we delete the gold farmers win the numbers game. Anets method is the only way to beat them or at least have some control over it's effects on the in game economy.

  • JakdstripperJakdstripper logan lake, BCPosts: 2,126Member Uncommon

    i dont mind cash shop as long as you have a choice to either grind that item or pay $ for it. by no means should you be forced to spend money to either lift certain game restrictions or have anything in game (like AoC).

     

    you should have to pay to buy the game. there should be no subscription and absolutely everything in game should be atteinable through either grinding or raiding or arenas or some sort of farming.

    cash shop should make items aveilable for those that dont want to spend the time to farm them. so those that have time and dont wanna pay can get it all through farming, and those that dont want to spend time farming can also get it all by paying really $.

    everyone is happy.

     

     

     

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid hell, NJPosts: 6,772Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by gotha

    subs are actually a pretty good way to run an online game.  They are more expensive then they need to be but a decent no strings attached way to run a game.

    really?, so no strings attached.... if i stop paying monthly i am forced to stop enjoying the game i like.....no thanks. I find much less strings attached with a Buy to Play system ( no subs).

    As i pointed out in other thread - a good AAA mmo makes enough profit from boxes / expansions / decent cash shop. Subscription mmos charge all that as well (yeah a lot of those are adding cash shos too)... So those subscriptions are not needed at all, they just want to take more money from our pockets and dont even deliver a game worthy of so much money.

    But opinions are like buttz, everyone has one. xD

    EDIT: i forgot to say taht Free to play mmos (full free mmos) dont charge for client or any content at all so taht is a strong reason why they add balance breaking items to the cash shop. They know a lot of people will get them to take advantage and the devs will make up that way for not having priced box and stuff. I bet if they were all buy to play and better quality they wouldnt consider selling powers in CS

    image
  • MadimorgaMadimorga Atlanta, GAPosts: 2,014Member Common

    Originally posted by Xzen

    Originally posted by Madimorga


    Originally posted by whisperwynd


    Originally posted by Madimorga

    You don't get it.  The reason I prefer a monthly sub is to keep other people's wallets out of my MMOs. 

     

    Never happen my friend. As much as you want it, any sub-based game you'll have the third party gold sellers and PL services.

    Just because it is 'illegal' to the game company (and that's a big maybe) it'll never stop happening. So all of your venting and preaching is about Anet doing it themselves and getting some of that cash because there will still be third party sites selling gold.

    All of your examples are useless because it'll get done one way or the other. The only issue here is the legality of it.

    All of your posts could have been summed up by one single line..."Why did Anet lower itself, in my eyes, by becoming a gold seller themselves?"

    THEN, you could have a debate on that, calling in the morality police, the ethics committee on gaming, or even the president of Anet...what have you.

     

    image

    I know other MMO companies tolerate the hell out of RMT, banning sellers but not buyers, but it's partly because of that sub they want to keep getting.  I was so hoping ANet/NCSoft would take a tougher stance on it because they don't charge a sub.

     

    You're right, I'm outraged.  Anet doesn't belong in the gold farming business.  Take the gems to gold crap out, I'll put up with the rest, even though it's definitely pay for power, if not pay to win.

    No. We ban buyers too and or take the gold they bought away. But no matter how many we ban or how much gold we delete the gold farmers win the numbers game. Anets method is the only way to beat them or at least have some control over it's effects on the in game economy.

    If it would really get rid of them, I'd be less unhappy about it, but I played RoM when diamonds were frequently sold and I never saw so much farmer spam in my life, so it didn't even slow them down there, and Eve still has to regularly ban ISK buyers and sellers, so it hasn't stopped it there, either.

     

    I don't think it will put much of a dent in it in Guild Wars 2, either.

    image

    I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

    ~Albert Einstein

  • UnlightUnlight Ottawa, ONPosts: 2,540Member

    Originally posted by brody71

    i hate the whole cash shop idea now.  what if millions of people who play free to play, pay to win games start asking for power items in Gw2.  although i think it's unlikely, it's entirely possible that Ncsoft or Anet or whoever is in charge of the cash shop decides to start selling power items to make more money.  it just leave the door open to too much imo.  the revenue stream after box sales will be coming from people who use the shop, it only makes sense that they would listen to those paying customers.

    Why would they listen to those paying customers?  How many people do you think really want P2W items in the cash shop as opposed to those that don't?  So long as they put things in their shop that the rest of us, the vast majority, want, they'll have no trouble selling them.  Catering to the tiny minority of P2W enthusiasts/advocates would basically drive hordes of their existing players away.  It's called shooting one's self in the foot.  Be realistic.

  • Size-TwelveSize-Twelve Lansing, MIPosts: 494Member

    I'm sure this has already been said, but this should probably be a poll =)

    My vote is for cash shop with this game. I like the idea of being able to play the structured PvP like an FPS, with no monthly fee. The PvE and WvW is added bonus content, and I won't feel obligated to play all the time.

    If I want to buy something, it's my choice. I could also play the entire game at my leisure and never spend a dime outside the box price. I like it.


    Edit:

    One other thing is what makes F2P games suck is not just the cash shop, but the low production value. They always seem underwhelming to me. I don't think this will be the case with GW2 at all.

    Also F2P games are generally ok for the first 10 levels, and then you suddenly realize you HAVE to start buying things. You run out of bag space, you need pay only potions, etc. etc. You become heavily inconvenienced by NOT paying. I don't think this will be the case with GW2 either, and the shop will seem more like TF2 hats, and keys etc.

  • XzenXzen Los Alamos, NMPosts: 2,607Member Common

    Originally posted by Madimorga

    Originally posted by Xzen


    Originally posted by Madimorga


    Originally posted by whisperwynd


    Originally posted by Madimorga

    You don't get it.  The reason I prefer a monthly sub is to keep other people's wallets out of my MMOs. 

     

    Never happen my friend. As much as you want it, any sub-based game you'll have the third party gold sellers and PL services.

    Just because it is 'illegal' to the game company (and that's a big maybe) it'll never stop happening. So all of your venting and preaching is about Anet doing it themselves and getting some of that cash because there will still be third party sites selling gold.

    All of your examples are useless because it'll get done one way or the other. The only issue here is the legality of it.

    All of your posts could have been summed up by one single line..."Why did Anet lower itself, in my eyes, by becoming a gold seller themselves?"

    THEN, you could have a debate on that, calling in the morality police, the ethics committee on gaming, or even the president of Anet...what have you.

     

    image

    I know other MMO companies tolerate the hell out of RMT, banning sellers but not buyers, but it's partly because of that sub they want to keep getting.  I was so hoping ANet/NCSoft would take a tougher stance on it because they don't charge a sub.

     

    You're right, I'm outraged.  Anet doesn't belong in the gold farming business.  Take the gems to gold crap out, I'll put up with the rest, even though it's definitely pay for power, if not pay to win.

    No. We ban buyers too and or take the gold they bought away. But no matter how many we ban or how much gold we delete the gold farmers win the numbers game. Anets method is the only way to beat them or at least have some control over it's effects on the in game economy.

    If it would really get rid of them, I'd be less unhappy about it, but I played RoM when diamonds were frequently sold and I never saw so much farmer spam in my life, so it didn't even slow them down there, and Eve still has to regularly ban ISK buyers and sellers, so it hasn't stopped it there, either.

     

    I don't think it will put much of a dent in it in Guild Wars 2, either.

    The only thing you can do is hurt their profit margin as much as possible. By selling gems it forces gold sellers to lower their prices.

  • XychedXyched Stonington, LAPosts: 24Member

    I love the model they've come up with for the cash shop. Cash shops beat the hell out of subs to me- if you don't want the extra inventory space, don't pay for it. But if you can afford everything? Go ahead and buy everything! That being said, I also don't see anything wrong with selling XP potions and the like in the cash shop. You're not blocking content from anyone, are you?

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid hell, NJPosts: 6,772Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by brody71

    i hate the whole cash shop idea now.  what if millions of people who play free to play, pay to win games start asking for power items in Gw2. 

    what if sub based mmos started adding power items on their cash shop and paid services?

    edit: "for $5-10 extra bucks monthly you can have cooldown free skills!".... can you imagine? lol

    gimmie b2p or gimmie death. no sub needed

    image
  • whisperwyndwhisperwynd montreal, QCPosts: 1,479Member

    Originally posted by Madimorga

    I know other MMO companies tolerate the hell out of RMT, banning sellers but not buyers, but it's partly because of that sub they want to keep getting.  I was so hoping ANet/NCSoft would take a tougher stance on it because they don't charge a sub.

     

    You're right, I'm outraged.  Anet doesn't belong in the gold farming business.  Take the gems to gold crap out, I'll put up with the rest, even though it's definitely pay for power, if not pay to win.

    That stance I can respect. All those 'scenarios' you brought up in previous threads were all ethereal to the real issue.

    In all honesty, I'd love to see gold sellers disappear from Mmos. Given the average consumer, however, I seriously doubt that will ever happen. So, as the old adage goes 'If you can't beat 'em, join them.'

    Bit of a cop-out true, but if this is the trend to come, why not embrace it (as a company not the player) and attempt at controlling it.

    Only time will tell if this system will be better or worse than the existing one with all other mmos. You must pick your battles otherwise your stance on this will stop you from playing any mmo's.

  • MadimorgaMadimorga Atlanta, GAPosts: 2,014Member Common

    Originally posted by Xzen

     

    The only thing you can do is hurt their profit margin as much as possible. By selling gems it forces gold sellers to lower their prices.

    I will say this, if enforcement is so swift and thorough that I virtually never see farmer spam or run into moronic level 80s who clearly bought their account off EBay, or hackers and botters, I'll feel a lot more goodwill toward ANet/NCSoft than I do right now.

    image

    I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

    ~Albert Einstein

  • ButtskiButtski NilPosts: 185Member Uncommon

    league of legends works without any p2w.

    gw2 can do the same. no sub is great.

     

    if they do a good job i will pay for some stuff. if not...  they won't get my money.

  • HricaHrica Mocksville, NCPosts: 1,125Member Uncommon

    sub, cash shops reek

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,989Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by rojo6934

    Originally posted by brody71

    i hate the whole cash shop idea now.  what if millions of people who play free to play, pay to win games start asking for power items in Gw2. 

    what if sub based mmos started adding power items on their cash shop and paid services?

    edit: "for $5-10 extra bucks monthly you can have cooldown free skills!".... can you imagine? lol

    gimmie b2p or gimmie death. no sub needed

    Don't look now, but those days are almost upon us.  I'm pretty sure CCP is investigating ways to pull this off with their new WOD title and they won't be the last.

    Ultimately I think we'll have the ultimate hybrid, titles with multiple payment options including B2P, F2P, Sub fees all rolled into one.

    Actually we already have a prototype, EQ2.  They offer the game almost totally F2P, however to unlock all character races (and classes?) you need to pay them something, and there are tons of cosmetic items for sale in the cash shop, (and some very uncosmetic mounts) and if you like you can pay them a sub fee and buy stuff from the cash shop. They'll even sell you a box copy of the latest version if you really want to play the newest content.

    And they say SOE isn't innovative.

    image

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • sonicbrewsonicbrew Sparkill, NYPosts: 511Member

    Originally posted by Hrica

    sub, cash shops reek

    Agreed but I will still play this.

    “Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box.” ~ Italian proverb

  • romanator0romanator0 Glendora, CAPosts: 2,382Member

    Cash shop. Why? Because I'm not forced to keep paying fore the sole reason of continuing to play. There is also the fact that there is absolutely nothing stopping a company from adding a cash shop to a sub game.

    image

  • MadimorgaMadimorga Atlanta, GAPosts: 2,014Member Common

    Originally posted by Kyleran

    Originally posted by rojo6934


    Originally posted by brody71

    i hate the whole cash shop idea now.  what if millions of people who play free to play, pay to win games start asking for power items in Gw2. 

    what if sub based mmos started adding power items on their cash shop and paid services?

    edit: "for $5-10 extra bucks monthly you can have cooldown free skills!".... can you imagine? lol

    gimmie b2p or gimmie death. no sub needed

    Don't look now, but those days are almost upon us.  I'm pretty sure CCP is investigating ways to pull this off with their new WOD title and they won't be the last.

    Ultimately I think we'll have the ultimate hybrid, titles with multiple payment options including B2P, F2P, Sub fees all rolled into one.

    Actually we already have a prototype, EQ2.  They offer the game almost totally F2P, however to unlock all character races (and classes?) you need to pay them something, and there are tons of cosmetic items for sale in the cash shop, (and some very uncosmetic mounts) and if you like you can pay them a sub fee and buy stuff from the cash shop. They'll even sell you a box copy of the latest version if you really want to play the newest content.

    And they say SOE isn't innovative.

    image

     

    I'm very worried that The Secret World will take interest in the diamond for gold thing.  And that is going to be buy the box, sub, and cash shop.  If they do, I won't touch it.

    image

    I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

    ~Albert Einstein

  • XzenXzen Los Alamos, NMPosts: 2,607Member Common

    Originally posted by Madimorga

    Originally posted by Xzen


     

    The only thing you can do is hurt their profit margin as much as possible. By selling gems it forces gold sellers to lower their prices.

    I will say this, if enforcement is so swift and thorough that I virtually never see farmer spam or run into moronic level 80s who clearly bought their account off EBay, or hackers and botters, I'll feel a lot more goodwill toward ANet/NCSoft than I do right now.

    We will have to wait and see how that turns out. I havent seen much spamming in GW1 but I have seen third party sights that sell GW1 in-game goods as well as reports of the same third party sellers getting mass bans. But like I said GW1 is not GW2. We have to wait and see how well they handle it.

  • MadimorgaMadimorga Atlanta, GAPosts: 2,014Member Common

    Originally posted by Xzen

    Originally posted by Madimorga


    Originally posted by Xzen


     

    The only thing you can do is hurt their profit margin as much as possible. By selling gems it forces gold sellers to lower their prices.

    I will say this, if enforcement is so swift and thorough that I virtually never see farmer spam or run into moronic level 80s who clearly bought their account off EBay, or hackers and botters, I'll feel a lot more goodwill toward ANet/NCSoft than I do right now.

    We will have to wait and see how that turns out. I havent seen much spamming in GW1 but I have seen third party sights that sell GW1 in-game goods as well as reports of the same third party sellers getting mass bans. But like I said GW1 is not GW2. We have to wait and see how well they handle it.

    Indeed.

    image

    I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

    ~Albert Einstein

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