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This is great. Guild Wars 2 is clearly working.

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  • Eir_SEir_S Argyle, NYPosts: 4,623Member

    Originally posted by MorbidCurio

    That's how I, and many others, view raiding in an online game. The item rewards are generally less shiney and impressive than in a single-player game, but when you can organize twenty people to all achieve one common goal there is a very warm, fuzzy feeling that is only just one step below beating another team at your choice of sport. The game devs (hopefully) tried to kill all of you, but your group came out ahead.

    I felt that way too, til I realized you're almost always achieving someone else's goal - ie: the odds that your hard work will pay off for you are low, considering the loot is not evenly distrubted.  It's why I got tired of raids.  It only instills a sense of bitterness when you do the same work as everyone else for no reason.  That's why GW2 looks promising to me.  Everyone wins.  Both the people who want a challenge, and the people who want prizes.  And why shouldn't everyone win every time they succeed?  

    Some people call this instant gratification.  I call it "Not stringing your playerbase along, in combination with a subscription fee, so they'll stay addicted longer hoping for something they might never get, and line your filthy pockets in the process"

     You're deluding yourself if you think GW 2 isn't going to have some form of gear treadmill. Leveling, in and of itself, is a form of gear treadmill and last I checked GW 2 has leveling.

    But leveling doesn't create a division in the player-base at all, right?

     You could be right about the what, but wrong about the why.  Maybe a form of treadmill will take root in GW2, but since level doesn't truly matter in most cases, I don't think that's going to be the primary reason for community division, if there is one at all.  Your characters scale to the same level depending on the area you're in.  You can't show off how OP you are in a zone by one shotting things because the enemies will actually hit back and you and the person you would otherwise be way ahead of will have to work together or die.

    So no, leveling will not create a division, no matter how you look at it.

     

  • Anoebis.beAnoebis.be AntwerpPosts: 62Member

    Originally posted by Dream_Chaser

    One of my prime hopes for Guild Wars 2 was that it would have people re-evaluate things, possibly on a large scale, that it would have people looking at stuff that occurs that we take for granted as part of the system. That it would shake things up and prove that things set in stone don't need to be set in stone.

    I'm familiar with the concept of a paradigm shift from a scientific viewpoint. Eventually something comes along, a new theorem that no one cares to accept, and then the evidence starts piling up in support of it and slowly you get more and more supporters. It really pisses people off, and everyone hates the change, but at the end of the day everyone still has a better understanding of the inner-workings of the Universe than they did prior.

    And I really think that we need to do some deconstructionalist analysm of MMORPGs in general, there are many things that we accept as set in stone that clearly... well, aren't. The accepted paradigm of the MMORPG has a linear flow to it, and one that many developers have been afraid to break. It's something that's been so ingrained via both classic conditioning (pavlovian responses) and oeprant (consequential) conditioning that people believe it has to go that way.

    What those who play a singleplayer or co-op game expect is vastly different to what those who play an MMORPG accept. And I think that the MMORPG has fallen into an unhealthy, stagnant rut. So what do we accept?



    • You pay a subscription.


    • You can't buy anything of worth in the game with real money.


    • You have to make time investments (called 'work' by some) in order to acquire resource units.


    • These time investements are massive and favour those without real life responsibilities or connections.


    • Excessive time investments cause MMORPG players to consider the genre 'hardcore' because of that.


    • Those who invest time ('work') control the economic flow.


    • Those with the best gear get into the best raids.


    • Those who make large time investments are entitled to exclusive content that no one else is.


    • Further content should take greater time investments and not be completed quickly.


    • In order to substantiate these time investments, a 'carrot' is needed.


    • this 'carrot' is exclusive gear, which is then used for further exclusive content.


    • That's when the raiding treadmill occurs.


    This is a fascinating concept. Not only because I can't really understand the appeal, but because of the divide it creates. First of all, I want to cover not understanding the appeal. The lack of appeal in my case is that I can't understand why you'd want to waste your life for a constant chain of 'carrots.' There was one Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw video that summed this up eloquently.


     


    It went something like this:


     


    "So why are you raiding?"


    "To get better gear."


    "Which gives you?"


    "Bigger numbers."


    "Why do you need those?"


    "The boss has bigger numbers."


    "What do you get from the boss?"


    "Better gear!"


    "And what do you do with that?"


    "Kill the next boss, duh!"


     


    Imagine that.


     


    The problem is is that not everyone is able to make these ridiculous time investments. You have people with children, a family, a job, social obligations, and so on. The sort of people who're considered 'casuals.' Now, the usual MMORPG talks about these people in derogatory ways, often considering them not 'leet' or not 'hardcore' enough. Because having a job and a child isn't 'hardcore.' So they sneer at such people and demand that the game be made more for them, creating more time investments.


     


    But where did this begin?


     


    It all started off with subscriptions. In order to justify a subscription, you have to pad out content. This means that instead of a ten minute mission in Mass Effect 3, you're doing a five hour questing slog. Really, it shouldn't be that long, but it is. So you get to the quest vendor and they offer you these 'carrots,' these rewards. The idea here is that more weak-willed people get hooked on the idea of somehow, somehow being better than other people. In some small way... better.


     


    It takes advantage of them.


     


    So via conditioning and peer pressure, the average MMORPG gamer then continues to spend their life playing the game, without even realising the harm it might be doing to them. What they get out of this is the feeling of controlling the economy, of being able to separate themselves into haves and have-nots, in order to sneer down at those who don't have the same level of access to the game that they do. That's what it's all about. That shiny mount, that exclusive raid, that high-end armour? It's all to be better than someone else. One-upmanship, plain and simple. It's not a difficult concept.


     


    However, things are changing now. And that has those people terrified, because they can't handle change. What this means is that there's no grind, there's no gruelling slog. This in turn means that there's no carrot. That means that they have no way to be better than other people. This is something I've discussed before - Guild Wars 2 enforces player equality. It's an egalitarian game. Everyone gets the same chance at the game, through different methods of content.


     


    At the power plateau, it won't matter if you've put eight hours into the game or eight thousand, you're all equal.


     


    This is a terrifying concept to those who've ruled with time investments. Because for the longest time MMORPGs have been whispering delicately into their ears that their way is the only way. Subscribe to our game, we'll let you be better than other people. But the market is changing. More and more developers are realising that these people who want time investments to rule the economy are a vast minority (vocal, but still a vast minority).


     


    There are casual players out there just waiting for the MMORPGs that are designed for them to play. And those are on the way. One of the first is Guild Wars 2.


     


    And like I said, it's working.


     


    What Guild Wars 2 is doing is shaking things up, it's altering perceptions. It's saying that what was set in stone was an illusion, and that things can be completely different. Those who helped set those rules in stone are going to rail against that. Of course they are. No more exclusive content for them. Yes, that's going to suck for them. Because the reason they play an MMORPG, even in PvE, is just to be better than someone.


     


    But there are games out there for them. Games which encourage competitive PvE, games which encourage people being arseholes to each other, and games which encourage player inequality. And they'll always have those games. But they're worried that one day... they're going to run out of games and they'll have to play our games, the games of casual players. And yeah, that scares them.


     


    I mean, look at WoW.


     


    WoW, from the ground up, conditions you to want to be better than someone. It puts in various ways to force you to compete. You can easily accidentally flag yourself as PvP, resource nodes are instanced globally rather than per player, which makes people fight over them, and the whole thing is one massive sociopathic circlejerk. It's just people being horribly indecent to each other. But again, the old MMORPG player, the time investor, they're comfortable with that.


     


    In Guild Wars 2 they'll actually have to socialise with people, they'll have to be nice, they won't be in complete control, they'll be equal. This turns everything they know on its head. And that's why we've had so many threads about this. It's old MMORPG players damn near having a brain aneurysm at all of the rules they thought they knew being turned upon their heads.


     


    No longer lords and ladies. Just peons. Like the rest of us.


     


    They have to come back down to the real world.


     


    But what we're getting instead now is that they're seeing the other side of the equation. Just because there's equality, they're blowing it out of proportion and saying that money ivnestors will be on top. That's obviously not the case, but that's the fear that they have, because they're having these crazy slippery slope theories. You know? Oh no, we've lost our regal status, soon our slaves will be our masters, and we'll be the slaves!


     


    That's not going to happen, but they're seeing things from the side of the have-nots and the results?


     


    The results are frankly hilarious.


     


    If I were a vindictive person, I'd pester ArenaNet to actually include an $80 monocle in the game, just so that I could buy it, wear it, and flaunt it at the time investors. But I'm not a vindictive person. Like I've said before, my approach to the game will be to find the most sensible, utilitarian armour I can and stick with that. I don't really give a shit about being the prettiest pony on the block.


     


    But if you understand the paradigm shift, here, if you understand how the patterns are changing, then you understand why every one of these new threads exists. It's forcing people to question all that was supposedly set in stone about GW2. And like I said, that says to me... GW2 works. I am pleased.


     

     

    AWESOME READ!! You win the internets today!

    image
  • NeverdyneNeverdyne Guatemala CityPosts: 167Member

    Originally posted by Adalwulff

    Originally posted by Neverdyne


    Originally posted by Dream_Chaser

    @Neverdyne

    You're equating an RL activity (saving for a soccer ball) to a game. A game is not RL. A game is not work. This is where the argument falls apart for me. In my opinion, if you want to work then why not get a job? A game is something you play to enjoy some leisure time. And the progression comes from the story and your personal enjoyment of the game.

     For some people, possibly you included, the hassle of "working" in a game is not fun, but for many others, like me, if we get everything free and easy it becomes meaningless. My enjoyment of a game comes from accomplishing things, hard things, and feeling how my character is progressing. If I accomplish something that was never hard or didn't require "work", like buying a vanity item from the store for 5 bucks, I really don't feel attached to it. I don't find value in it. 

     

    You could definitly do that, one way is find the lowest level mob, probably near town, and grind on them until you hit max level. I am sure that would very hard to do, if you make it, that would be something to feel proud of.

     

    There's a difference between a challenge and doing something stupid.

    Becoming the No. 1 tennis player in the world = challenge

    Trying to become the No. 1 tennis player in the world by playing without a racket and shoes = stupid

  • BunksBunks New Port Richey, FLPosts: 960Member

    Originally posted by BadSpock

    I honestly think GW2 is going to sell a lot of copies initially because people don't really know what kind of game it really is.

    Many of those people will leave after a while because you can't be "hard core raiders, gankers, kill stealers, wallet warriors(gold farm purchasers) , people who spend half their day trying out how to ruin somone else's gameplay etc"

    But it is my hope that those that stay and enjoy the game for what it is will have finally found a home AWAY from all those other people.

    How bad is it?

    I honestly predict a good 2 million or so first month sales and less than a half a million playing after a few months.

    "No raids I can't get better gear I can't... get better gear to make me not suck at PvP!" and bam, gone.

    As long as I'm having fun and GW2 really isn't like the other games I've been playing since 2004, I'll be a happy camper.

    You're probably right, 2 million or so with a large drop off afterwards. TBH, I hope it does something like that because 90% of my frustration with MMO's of late, were the people who played it and how they played it. If losing half or more of the population leaves people who like teamwork, fair PvP, and casuals, I will be very very satisfied.

  • JaedorJaedor Denver, COPosts: 1,140Member Uncommon

    After 13 pages, I'd just like to add my voice to the rest offering up some kudos for a really well-written and intelligent post. If I could +rep, I would.

     

    Thanks for posting!

  • MwynForeverMwynForever LincolnPosts: 139Member

    Originally posted by RefMinor

    Originally posted by MwynForever

    Originally posted by RefMinor


    Originally posted by korent1991


    Originally posted by RefMinor

    In the old days you had F2P titles with P2W cash shops, then in a glorious stroke of innovation Anet sold us B2P titles with P2W cash shops and a subset of the MMO population cried out in thanks.

    Trolling again :D

    ANet with GW1 didn't even had the cash shop when it was launched... It was implemented after and offers character outfits, extra char slots, name change, gender change, bonus mission pack for EOTN, pvp items and spells for pvp char only, and that's about it I think...

    So where's the P2W in that GW cash shop?

     

    If what you just said is correct then the PvP spells and items you said were in GW1 would be the standard definition of pay to win

    Really that's pretty funny because just the other day someone was asking for help in GW1 in the pvp area I was in while waiting to play. So I message him and tell him maybe he should join a few games until he has enough points to get an elite that he would like to try out. I have all the elites he says. I have all the skills. Ah right, well go check out PvX or something and find yourself a build you'd like to try out. What's a build he says? Will he get it eventually? Probably. But clearly he didn't buy an I WIN button and I am pretty sure the people he groups with will have a harder time winning too until he gets it.

     

    But he would beat another complete tool who had not bought all the kit assuming equal skill, money buys advantage.

    Buying skills=buying spells. Not ability sorry if you misunderstood.  And in reply to your other statement that this then means that anet has gimped said player. No one forced him to bypass the pve portion of the game which in effect will give you the skill (ability) to use those skills (spells). Nor did he have to purchase anything to only play PvP. 

    One of life's lil hand grenades

  • BenthonBenthon Cedar Rapids, IAPosts: 2,069Member

    Great post. Thanks for taking the time to share! 

    He who keeps his cool best wins.

  • Rhianni32Rhianni32 Denver, COPosts: 222Member

    Originally posted by Neverdyne

    Originally posted by Dream_Chaser

    @Neverdyne

    You're equating an RL activity (saving for a soccer ball) to a game. A game is not RL. A game is not work. This is where the argument falls apart for me. In my opinion, if you want to work then why not get a job? A game is something you play to enjoy some leisure time. And the progression comes from the story and your personal enjoyment of the game.

     For some people, possibly you included, the hassle of "working" in a game is not fun, but for many others, like me, if we get everything free and easy it becomes meaningless. My enjoyment of a game comes from accomplishing things, hard things, and feeling how my character is progressing. If I accomplish something that was never hard or didn't require "work", like buying a vanity item from the store for 5 bucks, I really don't feel attached to it. I don't find value in it. 

    But you can still work at getting things you are not forced to buy. You can work spending time to accomplish your goals. It sounds like your sense of fun is based upon what other people are not allowed to do and less working at your own goals.

  • PangentorPangentor Gardner, ILPosts: 129Member

    image  Great post !

  • jinxxed0jinxxed0 columbia, SCPosts: 838Member

    Originally posted by Pivotelite

    Basically the people who have time to play games should not be rewarded and casual players like yourself with large sums of cash should get instant gratification and also be able to purchase anything they desire in the cash shop?

     

    Is this what you were trying to say? Not sure if I am following correctly, well contructed write up though, I must say.

    People with Time get rewarded.

    People with Money get rewarded.

    People without time or money shouldn't bother.

    It's simple, basic logic.

  • Rhianni32Rhianni32 Denver, COPosts: 222Member

    Originally posted by Neverdyne

    Originally posted by Adalwulff


    Originally posted by Neverdyne


    Originally posted by Dream_Chaser

    @Neverdyne

    You're equating an RL activity (saving for a soccer ball) to a game. A game is not RL. A game is not work. This is where the argument falls apart for me. In my opinion, if you want to work then why not get a job? A game is something you play to enjoy some leisure time. And the progression comes from the story and your personal enjoyment of the game.

     For some people, possibly you included, the hassle of "working" in a game is not fun, but for many others, like me, if we get everything free and easy it becomes meaningless. My enjoyment of a game comes from accomplishing things, hard things, and feeling how my character is progressing. If I accomplish something that was never hard or didn't require "work", like buying a vanity item from the store for 5 bucks, I really don't feel attached to it. I don't find value in it. 

     

    You could definitly do that, one way is find the lowest level mob, probably near town, and grind on them until you hit max level. I am sure that would very hard to do, if you make it, that would be something to feel proud of.

     

    There's a difference between a challenge and doing something stupid.

    Becoming the No. 1 tennis player in the world = challenge

    Trying to become the No. 1 tennis player in the world by playing without a racket and shoes = stupid

    Does buying the best racket and shoes mean you will win the French Open?

  • VorthanionVorthanion Laguna Vista, TXPosts: 2,119Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Neverdyne

    The OP and many here don't seem to understand the concept of how the more "hardcore" oriented gamers are entertained, and what really is the carrot on current MMOs. You seem to ridicule the raider mentality, but you don't seem to fully understand why it exists. You see, it's the sense of progression what entertains people. And that sense of progression cannot be "felt" if you do not invest work in it. It's the same idea behind why, say, a poor child who really wants a soccer ball spends many weekends working on lawns to save up and buy it, and when it gets it he feels way better about it than a spoiled rich kid who gets a new gameboy for Christmas alongside many other gifts. The latter will use it for a while, but once the novelty passes that gameboy will be left gathering dust. 

     

    How human psycology works is that if you work for something, even if the work itself isn't "fun", and you achieve it you will feel good about it. And that something, for raiders, is progression itself. It's not a new sword, it's not bigger numbers, but the sense of "progressing" through, the sense of "advancement" is what entertains them. 

     

    This is a concept as old as RPGs themselves, ever since leveling was implemented. If you don't give players a sense of progressing they won't feel any "depth" in the game, and thus loose interest sooner. 

    Then why is it that raiders are always the focal point for end game progression?  There are all kinds of other play styles out there that do not get this kind of attention.  Even games that start casually, end up with raid grinds that screw over any other play style.  I call it the great bait and switch of the MMO genre.  Whether a game is casual or hardcore, hardcores are always the ones foremost in the developers' minds when it comes to rewards and the way content is styled, especially in the higher levels.

    Yes, there are plenty of quasi-casual games, but they're always corrupted by hardcore end game paradigms.  Currently, developers have this deluded belief that they can cater to both, so you end up with content that is not as appealing to casuals and yet is not hardcore enough for the super achievers.  If we ever needed a market that embraced niche gaming, this is the time for it.  All of this fuss going on lately is merely the beginning of the unrest gamers are feeling about hybridized and homogenized gameplay and I'm afraid it's only going to get worse before it gets better.

    image
  • DarknezzzzDarknezzzz VentspilsPosts: 82Member

    That was a pleasant read, lad. I actually bursted out to laugh when read about the "prettiest pony on the block". 

    Sadly, I'll have to agree with mostly everything you said here. Although I don't believe that people will be good. They WILL have to socialize in this game, but this doesn't necessarily mean that they will. 

    There will always be elitist, arseholes, jerks, douchebags, you can call them whatever you want. But at least I know that out there are some people that do actually enjoy this kind of gameplay. And, hopefully, I will find those people and group up with them for even more enjoyment.

    image

  • DarkPonyDarkPony RotterdamPosts: 5,566Member

    Originally posted by Tardcore

    Originally posted by DarkPony


    Originally posted by Dream_Chaser


    Originally posted by Torvaldr


    Originally posted by DarkPony

    Oh dear ... someone just made instant gratification, lack of long term gameplay incentives and Anet's player conflict avoidance philosophy sound good ... and got away with it!?

    BM' ing this for future reference.

    I disagree on almost all parts but I do recognize your speach writing capacities. You could probably sell people bricks for gold bars.

    Sometimes I love your wit and insight.  This is one of those times.  I'm just a little bit disappointed Soylent Green wasn't in the OP list, but I'll get over it.

    [mod edit]

    So much ad hominems. ...

    *sad pony*

    I could write a similar post filled with cleverly disguised personal insults on your rose colored glasses (which seem more like a rose colored welding helmet with a built in reality distortion field generator) but I digress.

     



    Huh, yeah casual centric gaming. Sounds a bit like another game we were both following, eh Pony? Yeah THAT went well didn't it.image

    Uhm ...

    Wasn't me.

    Must have been some other pony.

    (But yeah, you are right. At least we live to tell the tale ^_^ ).

  • Zeus.CMZeus.CM ZagrebPosts: 1,788Member

    Great post OP!

    This is the reason why I quit Aion again. It went F2P and I was playing since the day one. It was okay at first....like 20 levels. 20-30 was okay still because I went to abyss. But after lv 30 when leveling curve starts going up in heavens it became tiresome. Well, okay I unlocked Fire temple, first popular dungeon. But damn, it was boring as hell. All dungeons have the same concept, kill hordes of mobs just to kill boss that fights like every other mob. Great, and after 5 times no loot for me, because I have to pass the loot to others that use that piece of armor.

    This won't happen in GW2. Leveling curve is nearly flat, looting is much more rewarding, and grind is set to minimum if there's any.

    With all that you get new quest design through dynamic events that make things 1000 times more interesting. And also destroying the holy trinity, among other things.

    Almost every core mechanic about mmos is being drastically changed, and at first it will cause massive confusion among players, but once people get used to it, and - as you said - once this mmo design gets more supporters, that many that this mmo philosophy that arenanet has created will become so huge that other companies won't be able to ignore anymore.

  • MothanosMothanos ArnhemPosts: 1,860Member Uncommon

    People dont have to agree with the OP, his writings or his vieuws.

    But in a  nutshell the man explains also that since EQ the red line stayed the same with not much inovation from any mmo that came out.

    Looking at GW2 and Anet they want to change as much as they can.

    I support their way of thinking and balls to bring us their vieuw of a good mmo.

    It might be the shittiest mmo ever in history (doubt it) but even when it does (fail) they tried doing something diffrent.

     

    I played hardcore untill i got a wife and 3 kids, and a job so my game time is limited, does that mean iam a casual ?

    Perhaps i am, but face me in PvP and you woulnt say iam a casual as i know what iam doing and how to beat you when on even ground.

    Its just that i dont have the time to play 12 hours a day anymore, iam lucky if i can play 2 or 3 hours a day.

    But my wife and kids are prio #1 and my job is prio #2 then comes along my hobby witch is gaming like all the rest of you :)

     

    +10 for the OP post 

     

     

     

  • KuinnKuinn MestaPosts: 2,093Member

    Originally posted by DarkPony

    Oh dear ... someone just made instant gratification, lack of long term gameplay incentives and Anet's player conflict avoidance philosophy sound good ... and got away with it!?

    BM' ing this for future reference.

    I disagree on almost all parts but I do recognize your speach writing capacities. You could probably sell people bricks for gold bars.

     

    +1 & QFT.

     

    I'm really looking forward to GW2 and think it will be a really great game, but some things... Eh, I'm not even going to go there regarding this OP...

     

    A drug junkie once told me: "Hey man you dont need any goals in life, you can just have fun!" - I dont disagree, just not sure if it's the best way to go forth with.

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    Originally posted by Rhianni32


    Originally posted by Neverdyne


    Originally posted by Adalwulff



    Originally posted by Neverdyne



    Originally posted by Dream_Chaser


    @Neverdyne
    You're equating an RL activity (saving for a soccer ball) to a game. A game is not RL. A game is not work. This is where the argument falls apart for me. In my opinion, if you want to work then why not get a job? A game is something you play to enjoy some leisure time. And the progression comes from the story and your personal enjoyment of the game.

     For some people, possibly you included, the hassle of "working" in a game is not fun, but for many others, like me, if we get everything free and easy it becomes meaningless. My enjoyment of a game comes from accomplishing things, hard things, and feeling how my character is progressing. If I accomplish something that was never hard or didn't require "work", like buying a vanity item from the store for 5 bucks, I really don't feel attached to it. I don't find value in it. 

     

    You could definitly do that, one way is find the lowest level mob, probably near town, and grind on them until you hit max level. I am sure that would very hard to do, if you make it, that would be something to feel proud of.

     

    There's a difference between a challenge and doing something stupid.

    Becoming the No. 1 tennis player in the world = challenge

    Trying to become the No. 1 tennis player in the world by playing without a racket and shoes = stupid

    Does buying the best racket and shoes mean you will win the French Open?

     

    Yes, assuming an equal level of playing skill, you would have bought an advantage vs the guy who had the worse racket and shoes.
  • MosesZDMosesZD Kirkwood, MOPosts: 1,383Member

    Originally posted by Rhianni32

    Great post and you make a lot of good points. Too often we see the "back in my day MMOs did X and thats how they are supposed to be!" arguments. I think what excites me most about GW2 is that it is different and does challenge these traditions. If its successful perhaps we can finally get away from a WoW clone with 1 small difference and claim to be innovative.

     

    lol.   I"ve played on-and-off for fourteen years.    Not everything the old MMOs did was all that great...   In fact a lot of it was rubbish.   But I will say the easy-button that has been put into so many of them leaves me bored in weeks.

     

    Too many developers have forgotten players need things like challege, community, productive-enjoyable time sinks to remain engaged with an MMO.   Now many of them are more like co-operative single player games than anything else.   It's like you're paying $15 a month for a giant LAN party with strangers...

     

     

  • RizelStarRizelStar Raleigh, NCPosts: 2,773Member

    Originally posted by Kuinn

    Originally posted by DarkPony

    Oh dear ... someone just made instant gratification, lack of long term gameplay incentives and Anet's player conflict avoidance philosophy sound good ... and got away with it!?

    BM' ing this for future reference.

    I disagree on almost all parts but I do recognize your speach writing capacities. You could probably sell people bricks for gold bars.

     

    +1 & QFT.

     

    I'm really looking forward to GW2 and think it will be a really great game, but some things... Eh, I'm not even going to go there regarding this OP...

     

    A drug junkie once told me: "Hey man you dont need any goals in life, you can just have fun!" - I dont disagree, just not sure if it's the best way to go forth with.

    Lol this has a lot of irony in it.

    It's interesting nonetheless.

    I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

    I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

    P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

    Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  • CrackboneCrackbone Covington, KYPosts: 212Member

    Originally posted by Dream_Chaser

     


    But if you understand the paradigm shift, here, if you understand how the patterns are changing, then you understand why every one of these new threads exists. It's forcing people to question all that was supposedly set in stone about GW2. And like I said, that says to me... GW2 works. I am pleased.

     

    Very well written. 

    As I've posted recently, I have a stinking suspicion that the anger about the RMTs, etc, is not actually that.  It's a fear that the game isn't to be exclusive, but inclusive. 

     

    A player with time will always outpace a player without as much time.  Considering both have paid the same price of admission(box cost), I fail to see the problem in allowing the player without time to reach some sort of parity with the player that has time. 

    Once that occurs, there's only skill.  While we may never reach that goal with any MMO, I'm rooting for GW2 to at least takes us on our way, and if we're lucky, get us to the promised land. 

  • MetentsoMetentso BarcelonaPosts: 1,436Member Common

    This has nothing to do with a paradigm shift and you know it.

  • GeeTeeEffOhGeeTeeEffOh Newington, CTPosts: 731Member

    Originally posted by RefMinor

    Originally posted by Rhianni32

    Originally posted by Neverdyne


    Originally posted by Adalwulff


    Originally posted by Neverdyne


    Originally posted by Dream_Chaser

    @Neverdyne

    You're equating an RL activity (saving for a soccer ball) to a game. A game is not RL. A game is not work. This is where the argument falls apart for me. In my opinion, if you want to work then why not get a job? A game is something you play to enjoy some leisure time. And the progression comes from the story and your personal enjoyment of the game.

     For some people, possibly you included, the hassle of "working" in a game is not fun, but for many others, like me, if we get everything free and easy it becomes meaningless. My enjoyment of a game comes from accomplishing things, hard things, and feeling how my character is progressing. If I accomplish something that was never hard or didn't require "work", like buying a vanity item from the store for 5 bucks, I really don't feel attached to it. I don't find value in it. 

     

    You could definitly do that, one way is find the lowest level mob, probably near town, and grind on them until you hit max level. I am sure that would very hard to do, if you make it, that would be something to feel proud of.

     

    There's a difference between a challenge and doing something stupid.

    Becoming the No. 1 tennis player in the world = challenge

    Trying to become the No. 1 tennis player in the world by playing without a racket and shoes = stupid

    Does buying the best racket and shoes mean you will win the French Open?

     

    Yes, assuming an equal level of playing skill, you would have bought an advantage vs the guy who had the worse racket and shoes.

    Agreed, These arguements only take one person into consideration.

    So, yeah above other things, the person who wins the French Open in all likelyhood has the best equipment.

    Know what else? You coul also make the assumption that they paid for the best trainers too.

    It's true that you can't look at the winner and say they won ONLY becaue they had the best gear........However, it's not impossible to say the loser lost ONLY because his gear was inferior.

  • tiberistiberis cheshire, CAPosts: 1Member



     

         I agree with a lot of the points of the original poster. The genre in a large way has become very stagnant. If nothing else I hope GW2 is very successful just to break away from some of what everyone accepts as concepts that must be part of a MMORPG. I started playing MMOs with Asheron's Call on the Darktide server and I've played pretty much every major MMO with full PVP servers since then. So my viewpoint is more from a PVP perspective then a PVE one.

        

         In my experience with the new batch of MMOs the gear driven focus is the major problem. And in my opinion it comes down to developer laziness. Its much more difficult and time consuming to develop fun compelling content than it is to add a couple new dungeon crawls put together a new armor set for your classes and call it a day. And we are seeing this in literally every game now. The same old recycled content over and over with new gear. That’s the mindset that needs to change. I was part of a raid guild in wow back in vanilla and after about 2 months of grinding the same crap over and over I just didn’t get it what the hell is fun about that? With games as they are now you can damn near get a video walkthrough on every boss encounter within the first month of release on youtube. Just as long as you don’t have a full raid of mouth breathers raid content isn’t a challenge anymore its just a time sink to keep people playing. And that’s what games are supposed to be about fun and challenge. When you have a raid on farm status its neither of the above so why is that system still used in games?

        

         In regards to the comments about progression I get it. That’s the whole point of RPG's to level your character and see them progress and get stronger. And that’s true I think it is important but I don’t think that an arbitrary time sink has to come along with that. The timetables on progression in most games seems to be developed thinking more about making sure the player stays busy long enough for the company to develop yet another time sink than if it makes sense for the players general well being. For instance how many games simply have busy quests? What I mean by that is quests that make no damn sense other than to just waste your damn time. Like go collect 200 berries for the orphanage and we'll give you some water to generate mana. Only to turn that quest in for them to tell you to run your ass back and collect some wolf slobber from the same area. And you're sitting there wondering, "WTH does this have to do with me being a great warrior for the kingdom?" Why is that needed? Give compelling NPC interaction that makes sense and isn’t just busy work. That’s all grinding is, busy work. How can developers keep people busy to milk them for their 15 dollars a month? Answer, make them grind for digital pixels for months on end and call it content. Don’t get me wrong I’ve fallen into that category myself more than once at one point I played MMOs pretty hardcore spending 5-8 hours a day playing so I'm speaking from experience.

        

         Developers need to start moving toward more dynamic and player driven content rather than spoon-fed static content. Here is a clear example. In Asheron's call on the PVP server the content was largely player driven. Raids were done on a regular basis but you weren’t raiding NPCs you were raiding other players leveling spots, bind locations, and guild mansions. Literally every engagement was different, the challenge was high, the PVP was fun, and the most skilled team won. And you didn’t just win the fight if you were fighting over a dungeon you then got to level in that new dungeon area and you had to spend time policing it for attackers. That is compelling content and a developer didn’t have to tell people to do it or give them a shiny quest they just had to come up with cool mechanics for the PVP and give the players the freedom to make it themselves. In the years that I played there, there were wars between alliances where you would have 50+ people on both sides fighting it out in open world PVP fighting over leveling areas or simply to exert dominance over an area or quest location. And Darktide 12 years later still has people talking about how awesome the PVP was. It wasn’t about how much resilience or expertise you spent hours grinding in early darktide it was all about skill where a level 60 or 70 player could dominate a level 100 person based only on player skill. 

        

         Those are some of the issues I see with the genre as it is. Sure there’s a ton of people playing MMOs now but when has numbers ever meant quality? If that’s the case HP makes the best PCs, and Justin Beiber is one of the best musicians out right now.  I’m not even saying that WOW and games like it haven’t added anything to the genre they have without a doubt. However we can’t look at WOW and it’s success and think that, that is the only good or even successful way to design a MMO. Grinds are not needed, the class trinity is not needed, PVP only stats are not needed, 4 hour dungeon crawls are not needed. These are not the key to a successful MMO they are features of the big dog on the block.  

     




  • ipekaipeka hamburgPosts: 222Member

    Originally posted by Dream_Chaser.

    It went something like this:


     


    "So why are you raiding?"


    "To get better gear."


    "Which gives you?"


    "Bigger numbers."


    "Why do you need those?"


    "The boss has bigger numbers."


    "What do you get from the boss?"


    "Better gear!"


    "And what do you do with that?"


    "Kill the next boss, duh!"


     

    I am scared at how vaguely accurate this is , coz i probably have the same mindset as a wow player

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