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Question: If guild wars 2 is not about the Items/Gear or the levels then what is the carrot?

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  • fenistilfenistil GliwicePosts: 3,005Member

    Depends who you ask:

     

    - Some ppl will treat and grind cosmetic outfits & titles as carrots

     

    - Some will do same for e-sport thing. Server ranking or whatever there will be

     

    - Some just for fun 

     

    etc 

     

    Actually not that diffrent from stat-gear based carrot. 

     

    Just more e-sporty.

     

    It is better or worse?

     

    Neither. Just diffrent.

     

    For some ppl better , for some worse and for some it does not matter / change much.

  • hikaru77hikaru77 buenos airesPosts: 1,035Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Dream_Chaser

    Does there have to be a carrot? Does a good book need a carrot? Does a good film need a carrot? Does a good game need a carrot? The answer to all of these is most obviously: No. I've never felt a need to have something enforce an artificial compulsion to make me see something through.

    Here's a quotable for you: If your game needs a carrot to make it fun, your game is broken.

    Sadly, thats not how the MMO world works. Even if is cosmetic, or just a prestig thing, players want a reward at some point. And thats why GW2 have rewards too, and a ¨GRIND¨ like everysingle MMO before them. And the competitive pvp is also a ¨carrot¨ in gw, like LoL or any other Dota MMO. i cant wait for the beta, to see how good or bad is this game for myself but i have a strong feeling that it ill be more like a 2nd game for most of the MMO players.

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member

    Originally posted by Demogorgon

    Originally posted by Badgered86

    The entire premise of the OP shows just how conditioned most people (especially MMO gamers) are.  The point of MMOs (and games in general) is not to grind something, it's to have fun.  Grinding is a tool used by subscription-based games to prolong the amount of time you will spend playing so as to generate more revenue from subscription fees.

    Thats a big load of bs.

    Grinding = progression and has been the heart of RPG since its inception, questing being its soul.

    Only since WoW I've started to hear that word thrown left and right. You know why? Because the genre is now full of non rpg gamers that came to a genre not fit for their gaming need just because they saw a commercial on tv and heard it was the next big thing. MMORPG are dead because of all the whinning about time sink & grinding. You can't have an RPG world without inconvinience & thats why all the "MMORPG" coming out these days are borefest... they lost all identidy trying to cater to non fan of the genre.

    So yeah, I can personnally identify with the OP... I never could get into GW because of the lack of progression. I tried, believe me, I did try. But, everytime I get to level cap, its not long before I loose the will to log in.

    At least this time there's 80 lvl, its a real MMO and if I play, it'll be at release. Not being a fan of PvP didn't help either I guess.

    My 2 coppers

     

    Grinding is a video game concept, not a RPG concept. I can guarantee that most people playing Dungeons and Dragons pen and paper did not go out and kill 1000 wolves just to 'ding' to the next experience level. It was about the journey and adventure, you got experience for doing all sorts of things, not just killing. GW2 makes the whole world its adventure. The 'carrot' is to go see all the world and help its citizens in dynamic events. Then you can help out your realm in the Mists.

    Most RPG's have a 'cap' where your character no longer progresses in power. You can then either go explore the world at maximum power or you can make a new character.

    GW1 had plenty of content for completionists and achievement chasers. But people who just wanted to see the story could finish the game in a month or two and then hibernate / pvp until the next expansion drops. I dont see why GW2 will be any different.

  • KillaatworkKillaatwork Lyons, ILPosts: 18Member

    Not just PvP that will be a big thing ofc.

    But well it is called Guild Wars for a reason so i guess GvG will be a big thing

  • El_LionEl_Lion BrusselsPosts: 154Member

    Carrots are for donkeys.

    Soz couldn't resist.

    For me it will be completion. Achievements in all aspects of the game.

    Eaglix

  • NaughtyPNaughtyP Edmonton, ABPosts: 793Member

    Originally posted by omegadethh7

    Fun and enjoyment

    Yup!

    Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  • ThaneThane berlinPosts: 2,232Member Uncommon

    shesh, and there they are again, our 3 problems :)

     

    as it seems  we don't play games for fun, we do so to get items to show off to our buddies.

     

     

    you know, back in the last millenia (or at the beginning of this one). games had exactly ONE motivation: the story  and the action... exactly TWO motivations... uh and fun, so exactly THREE MOTIVATIONS! :)

    nowadays, it seems this ain't enough anymore, we want our ferraries, our pools, our blond big boobed GF yadda yadaa....

     

    seriously, a game that is fun should be it's own reward.

    where was the carrot in UT? - kill your enemy! the most spectacular way :>

    where was the carrot in planescape? it was the game itself! rewarding ingame humor and story telling.

    where was the carrot in tekken3? juggle your enemy through the air, hit him with combos so his head would literally explode from watching his char go WHEEEEEEE

     

    uh. and i could go back even more:

    bubble bobble? beat baron of blubba!

    international karate? just kick it! and smash those silly urnes good!

    packman? it was enough to eat some pills and kick some ghosts!

    pong? make that little sqauare cross your friend's "goal-line"

     

    guess you know where i am going here, if not, one more question:

    where is the fun in hide and seek? (that's a game we used to play in "RL" / outside with our friends in my youth  :P  actually all we did was hide from one set "player" (or friend as we called em back in those days) and if he found you... it all started over again :>

     

    got it? no? well.... seriously... you should :>

     

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • Mythios11Mythios11 Paterson, NJPosts: 129Member

    This is an excellent question.  The knee jerk reaction is to say it's about having fun but let's face it the carrot on the stick in most themepark MMO's is gear and only the very casual players will say otherwise. 

    My guess is that GW2 will be a lot of fun for a month or two but once the novelty wears off it will be difficult to keep players incentivised without some sort individual rewards like gear. 

    People like to show off their stuff, it's an integral part of the MMO experience.  Without gear or any sort of meaningful way to display how awesome you and your guild are, there isn't a lot of incentive to run the same raid 20 or 30 times.

     

  • BenthonBenthon Cedar Rapids, IAPosts: 2,069Member


    People like to show off their stuff, it's an integral part of the MMO experience.  Without gear or any sort of meaningful way to display how awesome you and your guild are, there isn't a lot of incentive to run the same raid 20 or 30 times.

     
    Titles, cosmetic gear, mounts, pets, housewares, achievements, etc?
     
    League of Legends has no gear carrot. It's still just as fun every time I play.

    He who keeps his cool best wins.

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member

    Originally posted by Mythios11

    This is an excellent question.  The knee jerk reaction is to say it's about having fun but let's face it the carrot on the stick in most themepark MMO's is gear and only the very casual players will say otherwise. 

    My guess is that GW2 will be a lot of fun for a month or two but once the novelty wears off it will be difficult to keep players incentivised without some sort individual rewards like gear. 

    People like to show off their stuff, it's an integral part of the MMO experience.  Without gear or any sort of meaningful way to display how awesome you and your guild are, there isn't a lot of incentive to run the same raid 20 or 30 times.

     

    There is hard to obtain gear to show off, its just not more powerful than what everyone else wears.

  • DreadbladeDreadblade Phila, PAPosts: 384Member

    Originally posted by Mythios11

    This is an excellent question.  The knee jerk reaction is to say it's about having fun but let's face it the carrot on the stick in most themepark MMO's is gear and only the very casual players will say otherwise. 

    My guess is that GW2 will be a lot of fun for a month or two but once the novelty wears off it will be difficult to keep players incentivised without some sort individual rewards like gear. 

    People like to show off their stuff, it's an integral part of the MMO experience.  Without gear or any sort of meaningful way to display how awesome you and your guild are, there isn't a lot of incentive to run the same raid 20 or 30 times.

     

    Especially now that you can buy the same gear for cash

    image

  • blayugsblayugs edinburghPosts: 108Member

    You just compared non mmo games to mmo games. Most mmo games have a carrot but GW2 doesnt need it.

    Break the boring mold  FTW !

  • KhrymsonKhrymson Eorzea, MOPosts: 3,090Member

    then what is the carrot?

     

    Community...

  • ThaneThane berlinPosts: 2,232Member Uncommon

     

    he won? :)

     

     

    ps: the carrot is actually a lie! ^^ 

    uh uh uh, got a better one: there is no carrot!

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • BenthonBenthon Cedar Rapids, IAPosts: 2,069Member

    Originally posted by Dreadblade

    Originally posted by Mythios11

    This is an excellent question.  The knee jerk reaction is to say it's about having fun but let's face it the carrot on the stick in most themepark MMO's is gear and only the very casual players will say otherwise. 

    My guess is that GW2 will be a lot of fun for a month or two but once the novelty wears off it will be difficult to keep players incentivised without some sort individual rewards like gear. 

    People like to show off their stuff, it's an integral part of the MMO experience.  Without gear or any sort of meaningful way to display how awesome you and your guild are, there isn't a lot of incentive to run the same raid 20 or 30 times.

     

    Especially now that you can buy the same gear for cash

    Uh, no. There's absolutely no proof you'll beable to buy the same gear you earn through grouped PvE in the cosmetic shop. That would be atrocius and dumb. Sorry.

    He who keeps his cool best wins.

  • AdalwulffAdalwulff Sacramento, CAPosts: 1,152Member

    There are many ways of showing how "awsome" you are, seems Anet likes to show that with skill, other than uber gear.

    And to top it off, they change the grind from raiding the same dungeon over and over, to winning the WvWvW over and over.

    I love it!

    image
  • PurutzilPurutzil East Stroudsburg, PAPosts: 2,924Member Uncommon

    There doesn't seem to be one... which to me is an issue. As much as you can claim to enjoy a game and have 'fun' its human nature to expect some type of reward from it. Having nothing to gain out of it just makes the whole process so much less rewarding. 

     

    Name one thing 'fun' you do and you don't get anything out of it.  Now that you just tried to prove me wrong, really think hard about it in what you might get out of it besides fun. If your not being ignorant, I'm sure you just thought of something. With PvP it can be moderately rewarding with winning, but in the end if your just winning and not getting some shine of progress for it, your just going to eventually loose interest in it. 

  • blayugsblayugs edinburghPosts: 108Member

    Originally posted by Benthon

    Originally posted by Dreadblade


    Originally posted by Mythios11

    This is an excellent question.  The knee jerk reaction is to say it's about having fun but let's face it the carrot on the stick in most themepark MMO's is gear and only the very casual players will say otherwise. 

    My guess is that GW2 will be a lot of fun for a month or two but once the novelty wears off it will be difficult to keep players incentivised without some sort individual rewards like gear. 

    People like to show off their stuff, it's an integral part of the MMO experience.  Without gear or any sort of meaningful way to display how awesome you and your guild are, there isn't a lot of incentive to run the same raid 20 or 30 times.

     

    Especially now that you can buy the same gear for cash

    Uh, no. There's absolutely no proof you'll beable to buy the same gear you earn through grouped PvE in the cosmetic shop. That would be atrocius and dumb. Sorry.

     All gear is going to be the same endgame. When you reach max level the gear you have will be just as powerful as the gear the people that farm constantly have. The difference is the appearance.

    Cooler looking gear will be rarer but have the same power.

    Im not sure about the cash shop but if there is gear on there it will just have a cool appearance since it will have the same stats as everyone elses gear.

  • Dream_ChaserDream_Chaser BGPosts: 1,043Member

    Originally posted by hikaru77

    Sadly, thats not how the MMO world works.

    Post begins on a flawed premise, logical errors thus follow, and the post becomes useless because of how it began.

    "How the MMO world works."

    You are talking from a position where you feel entitled to dictate how the MMO world should work, but you are not. Therein is the flawed premise. In fact, you may be part of the problem. See, the MMO world, as you put it, has become an incredibly stagnant thing that most gamers dislike. It's become the realm of basement-dwelling nerds.

    Forgive me if I'm wrong, but the reason I was following Guild Wars 2 is because it was the game that promised to shake all that up. Thus, shaking that up would mean creating a game that doesn't really need carrots. Does this mean that prior carrot-laden MMOs are broken? Yeah, I kind of think it does. They were grindy, padded, and the carrot was there to reinforce the subscription.

    The problem is is that you're stuck in the past and you can't see how things could be done. You haven't spent enough time with non-MMO entertainment. So you're caught in this feedback loop where you believe that the only way you can proceed through a game is via some kind of carrot.

    But that's broken.

    When I was playing New Vegas, which is in my opinion one of the greatest RPGs of recent times, I didn't need a 'carrot' to go about my business and help people. I didn't need a carrot to enjoy the story. I didn't need a carrot to enforce artificial compulsion. Now, if your game needs to enforce artificial compulsion, all that means is one of two things:

    A.) The game isn't fun enough on its own.

    B.) The game has so much padding (yay subscriptions) to keep you paying from month to month that the 'carrot' needs to be there to keep you paying (not a typo).

    By believing that this factor cannot change, you're a relic and part of the problem.

    This can change.

    In fact, it's changing already. Gaming in general is heading more towards just being fun and enjoyable storylines, there's no gruelling slog, and there shouldn't be. If you don't have a broken game, you don't need a carrot. But sadly I believe that this is wisdom that you'll not be able to understand for a long while yet.

  • ButregenyoButregenyo IstanbulPosts: 483Member

    I am not blaming the OP as it seems he is not awere of the sense of RPG. Devs were pouring down no brainer games where you run on a gear threadmill. People are to shy to role play and find it lame yet they are looking for a role playing game, whinin about the lack of meta-roleplay features.

  • PivotelitePivotelite Hamilton, ONPosts: 2,167Member

    Originally posted by Badgered86

    The entire premise of the OP shows just how conditioned most people (especially MMO gamers) are.  The point of MMOs (and games in general) is not to grind something, it's to have fun.  Grinding is a tool used by subscription-based games to prolong the amount of time you will spend playing so as to generate more revenue from subscription fees.

     Ever stopped to consider maybe the OP finds grinding and challenging instances with beneficial rewards fun?

     

    I know I do and many other people do as well, I want progression, I don't want to run an instance for cosmetics, it's the same gear grind but for something less valuable IMO.

     

    The PvP should entertain me for a while(if it is all it is hyped up to be) but after that I don't expect PvE to do it for me, the problem is other games have good PvP as well AND the PvE endgame to back it up when you get tired of it.

    image

  • ThaneThane berlinPosts: 2,232Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Purutzil

    There doesn't seem to be one... which to me is an issue. As much as you can claim to enjoy a game and have 'fun' its human nature to expect some type of reward from it. Having nothing to gain out of it just makes the whole process so much less rewarding. 

     

    Name one thing 'fun' you do and you don't get anything out of it.  Now that you just tried to prove me wrong, really think hard about it in what you might get out of it besides fun. If your not being ignorant, I'm sure you just thought of something. With PvP it can be moderately rewarding with winning, but in the end if your just winning and not getting some shine of progress for it, your just going to eventually loose interest in it. 

    only one thing?

    * chess

    that's what i meant before, beating your oponent once (upon a time) used to be enough :P

    i know it sounds like a fairytale to some, but playing soccer (non leagued) would be another example. you just win.

    winning is no reward if you get nothing out of it? sheeesh, please :>

     

    human nature changed. i blame diablo :)

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • DreadbladeDreadblade Phila, PAPosts: 384Member

    Originally posted by Benthon

    Originally posted by Dreadblade


    Originally posted by Mythios11

    This is an excellent question.  The knee jerk reaction is to say it's about having fun but let's face it the carrot on the stick in most themepark MMO's is gear and only the very casual players will say otherwise. 

    My guess is that GW2 will be a lot of fun for a month or two but once the novelty wears off it will be difficult to keep players incentivised without some sort individual rewards like gear. 

    People like to show off their stuff, it's an integral part of the MMO experience.  Without gear or any sort of meaningful way to display how awesome you and your guild are, there isn't a lot of incentive to run the same raid 20 or 30 times.

     

    Especially now that you can buy the same gear for cash

    Uh, no. There's absolutely no proof you'll beable to buy the same gear you earn through grouped PvE in the cosmetic shop. That would be atrocius and dumb. Sorry.

    But you are wrong 

    We have a new player-driven market that allows players to trade gold for gems and gems for gold. If you want something, whether it’s an in-game item or a microtransaction, you ultimately have two ways to get it: you can play to earn gold or you can use money to buy gems. We think that’s important, because it lets more players participate on a level playing field, whether they use their free time or their disposable income to do it.

     

    From the mouth of Mike O'Brien himself

     

    image

  • MuntzMuntz Minneapolis, MNPosts: 332Member Uncommon

    In GW1 were titles, unique looking armor, unique looking weapons, skills, heros, hard mode, PvP, ... 

    GW2 will be different but I'm betting there will be equally as many things to do.

    When I left GW1 for an MMO the main thing PvE-wise there was to do was raiding for the only desirable gear in game.  I think many of the newer MMOs have distilled the PvE experience down to the raid. Sad really. 

  • ThaneThane berlinPosts: 2,232Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Muntz

    In GW1 were titles, unique looking armor, unique looking weapons, skills, heros, hard mode, PvP, ... 

    GW2 will be different but I'm betting there will be equally as many things to do.

    When I left GW1 for an MMO the main thing PvE-wise there was to do was raiding for the only desirable gear in game.  I think many of the newer MMOs have distilled the PvE experience down to the raid. Sad really. 

    uuuuh, there WILL be awesome looking stuff in gw2, and i doubt you will be able to obtain all of it easy.

    but that's the point, it's just LOOKING good :) it's no t13 to roxor your enemies with that leet 4-piece bonus you get, no 9000 agi you will add to your rogue by having some special items or anything like it.

     

    beauty lies in the eye of the beholder, and the beholder does not need extra stats, he kills just by gazing :)

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

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