I like Curt Schilling more than ever now. Straight to the point, and he called most of you guys out before you posted with that "some of you guys will bitch and will gripe" statement. Just remember, every one of you people that comment negatively are not the people that matter to Curt, and you can go wait for Guild Wars 2 and other MMO's now without this one on your list.
Why all the negativism in this thread? It seems that someone is going to invest alot of money into a mmorpg. R A Salvatore, Todd McFarley etc developing the game makes me smile. I see it as positive thing that big people from other scenes start to take interest in mmo's.
Heads up - and I do hope that this game will succeed. Rift is brilliant game, but cause people think its dead - the general concensus is that its dead.
Rift is many things, but brilliant isn't a proper word to use to describe it.
To those folks bashing them for taking the safe route, put up 40M of your own cash and you too can make a MMORPG the way it outta be.
That's why I hope they will fail. If they are afraid to take risks they shouldn't win. I seriously doubt they will survive on the market if the game will be same old. More and more companys are actually trying to do something new so I view those devs with "let's clone wow" mentality as subpar. And mediocrity should NOT be rewarded.
yeah i re-read what he posted about it, not making this game a sandbox is the reason WHY his game is not going to revolutionize the mmo industry i have no idea what he's thinking, the reason people are fed up and complaining all the time is due to people like this saying they will start an mmo revolution and then release a game that's a horrible themepark of some kind or something we've seen before entirely.
Well at least he gave me enough information to count on passing for this game.
KOA was disappointing at best ( IMO ) and it sounds like they are gonna play it safe with the " WOW model with a few things added ". And then market it as " Innovative and moving the genre foreward".
No thanks. But I wish them luck with their target audience.
Why all the negativism in this thread? It seems that someone is going to invest alot of money into a mmorpg. R A Salvatore, Todd McFarley etc developing the game makes me smile. I see it as positive thing that big people from other scenes start to take interest in mmo's.
Heads up - and I do hope that this game will succeed. Rift is brilliant game, but cause people think its dead - the general concensus is that its dead.
Rift is many things, but brilliant isn't a proper word to use to describe it.
To those folks bashing them for taking the safe route, put up 40M of your own cash and you too can make a MMORPG the way it outta be.
That's why I hope they will fail. If they are afraid to take risks they shouldn't win. I seriously doubt they will survive on the market if the game will be same old. More and more companys are actually trying to do something new so I view those devs with "let's clone wow" mentality as subpar. And mediocrity should NOT be rewarded.
There was no "clone WoW" mentality in Curt's message. There was a "we're using the basics and expanding on that to make the best game ever IMO" paraphrased. No one here has any idea what they're actually bringing to the table, except that it won't be entirely sandbox, it won't be twitch-based, and it will have level progression. Plenty of room for innovation available.
It sounds to me ike many of you want an mmofps....planetside 2 is coming for you. Stop trying to make mmorpgs into mmofps' that genre exist, go play it if you want the "unique" system of twitch combat and EVERYONE being dps.
Its one of the mos t tired arguments on this board. I have an idea tell me what would be new and different(with specifics) that wouldn't be an mmofps, within the frame work of an mmo describe to me what you would do to make it "unique".
No, actually what I want is DAOC 2, designed along the lines of the title back shortly after the SI expansion was released and most certainly before TOA/New Frontiers launched.
Judging from the comments in the other post about how much he doesn't care for PVP I'm not expecting it to be more than a tacked on after thought in this new title either, rather than designed around it like DAOC was.
Shame he cut his teeth on EQ rather than DAOC, perhaps we'd have gotten a different game.
DAOC was my favorite mmo of all time, but that isn't new and innovative, DAOC barrowed heavily from EQ1, and WoW cut and paste daoc's UI and tweaked it out a little bit, but all three games releied on a trinity mechanic. I would be on board for an updated DAOC2 deffinitely pre TOA, but that isn't going to happen. WoW has turned the industry into mmo to the lowest common denominator.
You guys are bashing a game that hasn't even come out yet based on a guys words. So sure it may be the same as other mmos, but why does that mean it's going to be a bad game? Something like EverQuest sounds pretty great to me. It means the graphics will be way better and therefore much more fun to play.
It sounds to me ike many of you want an mmofps....planetside 2 is coming for you. Stop trying to make mmorpgs into mmofps' that genre exist, go play it if you want the "unique" system of twitch combat and EVERYONE being dps.
Its one of the mos t tired arguments on this board. I have an idea tell me what would be new and different(with specifics) that wouldn't be an mmofps, within the frame work of an mmo describe to me what you would do to make it "unique".
Your argument is even more tired. MMO boards, this one and many others, are already filled with threads of mechanics long-gone or never made that still fall within the bounds of "MMO", have nothing to do with twitch-based combat, and that players would like to see. Use the search function.
Funny, because I've been reading these boards for a long time now and have never read anything of the sort. When this discussion comes up its always some one advocatiung twitch mechanics.
You guys are bashing a game that hasn't even come out yet based on a guys words. So sure it may be the same as other mmos, but why does that mean it's going to be a bad game? Something like EverQuest sounds pretty great to me. It means the graphics will be way better and therefore much more fun to play.
My first mmo was eq1, curt was a huge fan, I am sure his mmo will resemble eq1, and I am ok with that as I was a fan as well.
Why all the negativism in this thread? It seems that someone is going to invest alot of money into a mmorpg. R A Salvatore, Todd McFarley etc developing the game makes me smile. I see it as positive thing that big people from other scenes start to take interest in mmo's.
Heads up - and I do hope that this game will succeed. Rift is brilliant game, but cause people think its dead - the general concensus is that its dead.
Rift is many things, but brilliant isn't a proper word to use to describe it.
To those folks bashing them for taking the safe route, put up 40M of your own cash and you too can make a MMORPG the way it outta be.
That's why I hope they will fail. If they are afraid to take risks they shouldn't win. I seriously doubt they will survive on the market if the game will be same old. More and more companys are actually trying to do something new so I view those devs with "let's clone wow" mentality as subpar. And mediocrity should NOT be rewarded.
There was no "clone WoW" mentality in Curt's message. There was a "we're using the basics and expanding on that to make the best game ever IMO" paraphrased. No one here has any idea what they're actually bringing to the table, except that it won't be entirely sandbox, it won't be twitch-based, and it will have level progression. Plenty of room for innovation available.
Please explain where in the world there is room for innovation in what Curt described. All I saw was an improved EQ. Themeparks are blaise, nothing new in them at all, no matter how they try to spin it!
It sounds to me ike many of you want an mmofps....planetside 2 is coming for you. Stop trying to make mmorpgs into mmofps' that genre exist, go play it if you want the "unique" system of twitch combat and EVERYONE being dps.
Its one of the mos t tired arguments on this board. I have an idea tell me what would be new and different(with specifics) that wouldn't be an mmofps, within the frame work of an mmo describe to me what you would do to make it "unique".
Your argument is even more tired. MMO boards, this one and many others, are already filled with threads of mechanics long-gone or never made that still fall within the bounds of "MMO", have nothing to do with twitch-based combat, and that players would like to see. Use the search function.
Funny, because I've been reading these boards for a long time now and have never read anything of the sort. When this discussion comes up its always some one advocatiung twitch mechanics.
Well no, I will give you that a lot of people want twitch-based mechanics. I personally am not one of them, I've experienced this gameplay and the slightest drop in FPS or server lag completely destroys an otherwise fun experience. I don't personally think it belongs in an MMO, but yes it is something I see people requesting. My point is that it's not the only thing, and you can't have been "reading the forums a long time" and not have known that. There are numerous threads and polls of things people would like to see in an MMO and twitch-based gameplay is not the only thing. You asked people to give you detailed mechanics, they are already there. Not all of them make sense or are feasble, but that doesn't mean they weren't all bad.
We both know your question was more rhetorical, it's a kind of question that assumes gamers are too stupid to know what they want and deserve to be lead by the nose by people who "know better." It's a shallow question, because those people who "know better" were just gamers themselves, taking those same ideas, and making them something. There are plenty of good ideas that never came to be (in and outside of this medium) just because the people behind those ideas never rose to power, so don't discount them.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
Why all the negativism in this thread? It seems that someone is going to invest alot of money into a mmorpg. R A Salvatore, Todd McFarley etc developing the game makes me smile. I see it as positive thing that big people from other scenes start to take interest in mmo's.
Heads up - and I do hope that this game will succeed. Rift is brilliant game, but cause people think its dead - the general concensus is that its dead.
Rift is many things, but brilliant isn't a proper word to use to describe it.
To those folks bashing them for taking the safe route, put up 40M of your own cash and you too can make a MMORPG the way it outta be.
That's why I hope they will fail. If they are afraid to take risks they shouldn't win. I seriously doubt they will survive on the market if the game will be same old. More and more companys are actually trying to do something new so I view those devs with "let's clone wow" mentality as subpar. And mediocrity should NOT be rewarded.
There was no "clone WoW" mentality in Curt's message. There was a "we're using the basics and expanding on that to make the best game ever IMO" paraphrased. No one here has any idea what they're actually bringing to the table, except that it won't be entirely sandbox, it won't be twitch-based, and it will have level progression. Plenty of room for innovation available.
Please explain where in the world there is room for innovation in what Curt described. All I saw was an improved EQ. Themeparks are blaise, nothing new in them at all, no matter how they try to spin it!
Just because it's not 100% sandbox, doesn't mean there won't be exploration. Maybe there'll be some innovation in what can be found when exploring. Just because it's using a non-twitch combat system doesn't mean it's going to be WoW's system with better animations. Just because it's going to have classes doesn't mean it's going to have classes in the same sense as WoW and others where you have to choose from the get-go and stick with your decision. Hell, even the leveling system can be changed somewhat if they think out of the box, but I wouldn't expect anything there. Curt was vague
And don't say "All I saw was an improved EQ" and then go on about themeparks, because EQ is not a themepark, and if what he said was an improvement on that, then apparently themepark's aren't as blasé as you say.
I repeat: Non twitch-based, non-sandbox, class-based, leveling MMO does NOT = WoW/other game of choice that's similar, until we're shown the game and have some evidence to say otherwise.
Going on to mention swtor made him feel part of a larger story worried me a bit, as I thought that since I'd finished it in two weeks (was hoping it would last a lot longer, 5 years in development for 2 weeks of story?) it wasn't really such a winning choice in a game designed to provide longevity - especially as in swtors case the rest of the game is a shallow bare bones clone.
I'd had hopes for this game considering his gaming background, and apparently doing it out of passion rather than purely in search of profit but I'm starting to worry they just plopped down a block of WoW shaped game and said 'Right, so how do we push *this* further?', rather than choosing their own jumping off point based on the history of mmos & rpgs and even some creativity.
Yeah it's a big assumption on my part, and I'd love to be surprised, but as all we really get these days are homages to WoW in one form or another, I was seriously hoping for an experience that was more than another WoW with a gimmick or two tacked on.
You know, a new game for a change. Or even a clone of anything else as a worst case scenario.
I'm not a sandbox purist but I certainly appreciate freedom in MMOs as without a doubt they've created the most memorable experiences for me, but the main gist of this was.1) Don't get your hopes up regarding any amount of freedom 2.) An appreciation for swtors limited story telling with no longevity in someone that probably has a very large say in how the game evolves is a warning flag.
I fully admit this is mostly me playing devils advocate, but as this games been on my radar for years I'm naturally concerned (considering how little we've seen of anything) that in the end it's just going to be another clunky (if Reckoning is any indication - I liked it and loved the world a lot, but that was in spite of it's clunky controls rather than because of them) WoW clone/task hub grind.
We *reeaally* don't need another one of those.
Please tell me there's a reason to keep paying attention, and if you could answer 'How?' to the below quote it would be greatly appreciated.
''What if we made you feel different, special? Then made the world something epic and awesome, then made you important in that, then made you matter in the future of that.
All of that wrapped up in an extremely polished and fun game...''
I've personally felt more important in games pre-WoW, where there was room to let the stories of my friends and I unfold, rather than having something pre-canned shoved down my throat (Oh, and now every single other player of the same class also has that exact same personal story shoved down theirs). So we're all wearing the same quest rewards, all identical, and all had identical experiences. Plus we all know exactly where we'll be, what we'll be doing and what we'll be wearing in two weeks because the linear themepark games are so carefully mapped out in terms of progression that there are no happy surprises anymore. No thanks. Sure that's a lot easier to develop for, but seriously, does that sound appealing? Does that sound like a good place for people in a creative field to end up in?
I would love to be completely wrong and find out I've completely misinterpreted everything, I'd seriously appreciate nothing more regarding this game. But as it stands, this game may be slipping out of my top 3 to watch for the first time in years.
A great game is a great game regardless of my preferences, I'm open to trying new things, I would love something new right about now. What I'm not open to is another linear task hub grind in a fantasy world devoid of any risk or danger in which everyones a winner every second of every day, we have enough of those. I don't care what gimmick or two get tacked on, I'm not interested.
In the end, I'd love to not be disappointed, but I'll stop holding my breath now.
(Edit: Wow that sounded so harsh on a second reading. Keep in mind, as I said, I'm mostly playing devils advocate and voicing my fears based on primarily my blind assumptions.)
First of all its REALLY nice to see a game developer team who come clean on what their game won't be.
TOR failed to do that, most of newly released games fail to do that, so its nice to seesomeone who can still see the customers through all the pr pollution and does not try to rely on promises they can't keep.
That said, there's nothing wrong with traditional mmo classes or combat.
Its part of the reason why MMO genre is MMO genre.
Having all those nasty and big "the new thing" mmos out there is good. But it is nice that for at least once we are getting an "oldschool mmo" that is not trying to be "uber edgy action" and might possibly reinvigorate and reinvent the genre of traditional mmo games.
Sure "traditional mmo" includes WOW. But it also includes Everquest. DAOC, Lord of The Rings Online and dozens of other flavors.
If Project Copernicus manages to invent a new flavor of a traditional mmo, I am all for it.
Also, for those who did not realize, this thread also has one post from Curt Schilling himself at the start of it ;]
# A GRIM, ODD, ARCANE SKY # ANY GOD, I MARK SACRED # A MASKED CRY ADORING # A DREAMY, SICK DRAGON
So it's going to be another boring wow clone quest grinder with 1 or 2 useless gimmicks that nobody cares about?
Yikes, their single player RPG was just awful, Skyrim was selling more on Steam 1 week after they released KOA, and now they we already know their MMO is going to be crap.
What a mediocre developer lol, you are supposed to make GOOD games before selling out with generic garbage.
Their MMO is going to become f2p after a couple of months, unknown developers, unknown IP, generic game... yeah it doesn't look good for them.
"Esport with tournaments is for hardcore pvp'rs that want to be competitive. Openworld PVP with ganking and griefing is for casuals that just wants their pvp mixed with pve from time to time." otacu
You guys are bashing a game that hasn't even come out yet based on a guys words. So sure it may be the same as other mmos, but why does that mean it's going to be a bad game? Something like EverQuest sounds pretty great to me. It means the graphics will be way better and therefore much more fun to play.
My first mmo was eq1, curt was a huge fan, I am sure his mmo will resemble eq1, and I am ok with that as I was a fan as well.
You guys are bashing a game that hasn't even come out yet based on a guys words. So sure it may be the same as other mmos, but why does that mean it's going to be a bad game? Something like EverQuest sounds pretty great to me. It means the graphics will be way better and therefore much more fun to play.
My first mmo was eq1, curt was a huge fan, I am sure his mmo will resemble eq1, and I am ok with that as I was a fan as well.
hes an even bigger wow fan
KOA looks like WOW for gods sake.
The first thing I thought when I playes it was "It's like WoW, without all the goddamn people!"
I will say that if the MMO uses KoA's combat system I will like that at least. But the rest..meh.
I think it is kind of weird to come out and say all the things it won't but not put a carrot on what it will be. Marketing is probably not happy with that message. Even if that is not the what he intended, that is how it sounds like.
Not going to right off a game that has no info on it yet, but it does make me more cautious because all i am hearing is the things its not going to be and to not bother with the game if i don't like. Very defensive and negative tone to that message.
"Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better." parrotpholk
I think it is kind of weird to come out and say all the things it won't but not put a carrot on what it will be. Marketing is probably not happy with that message. Even if that is not the what he intended, that is how it sounds like.
Not going to right off a game that has no info on it yet, but it does make me more cautious because all i am hearing is the things its not going to be and to not bother with the game if i don't like. Very defensive and negative tone to that message.
I agree, especially considering that aside from some vague concept art, the names of people attatched to the project, and a single player game, that was somewhat lacking, set in the same world, we've seen nothing - after how many years? I might be wrong, but wasn't it 2007 that we first heard of Project Copernicus?
Now we know it won't have combat as we see it in Reckoning, so what's left that sets this game apart? Even Reckoning overall looked decidedly influenced by World of Warcraft, but somewhat less professional in a few small areas.
Obviously there are quite a few waiting to see what exactly they're bringing to a field saturated with clones, that's soon to be populated with Guild Wars 2 and a new WoW expansion amongst other new releases, that will make it worth any consideration.
That we've heard nothing but clarification regarding what it won't deliver is troubling - and it's slated to release this year?
How many times have we shaken our heads trying to fathom the thought process that leads to yet another WoW clone linear task hub grind, only to arrive at money as the perpetuator of rehashed crap in the name of profit? I assumed as the game evolved as the project of someone with apparently very little monetary motive that we'd see a project born of honest passion. If that was me and I was truly proud of what we'd created, I would probably be a bit more forthcoming regarding what players can expect, rather than what we're failing to deliver. Surely it must be something new? Anyone not purely out for profit above all else wouldn't waste time offering us a different shade of what we already have a hundred times over. Although that's likely wishful thinking.
It's all a bit worrying really. I'm interested to see more but bracing myself for the gut wrenching deflation that comes with finding out it's truly another WoW clone after all - BUT with rifts/voice-overs/public quests/any other ultimately inconsequential gimmick tacked on.
One last edit: If, however, this game does result in a situation similar to Reckoning in which I did feel I could, to some extent, just stumble into mini adventures, a large part of me will be appeased. I just can't tolerate another led by the collar game that plays like a tutorial from start to finish. That is of course if the combat isn't as easy as it was in Reckoning - seriously, fights I'm guaranteed to win even on the hardest setting are *not* fun for long, it's like playing with cheats enabled.
First off, EQ is a themepark, it was the first one, many developers have expanded upon the original design quite a bit, but still they all have their beginnings based in EQ.
If any of you played Curt's single player rpg you will get the flavor of what his company is probably doing with the MMO. The single player game was not good at all.
Did not expect a sandbox, but what he is describing is another themepark, there are far too many of them out there now. Jumping into such a crowded market with a product that does not really differentiate itself is just dumb.
Curt's description of UO's skill system was ignorant. Sure there was some less than useful skills, but there were plenty of different builds that were very playable. He condemns a skill system when he does not understand how it works.
He can go ahead and make his better EQ, but it has already been done many times before. It is just very disappointing another opportunity to expand the genre will not happen.
First off, EQ is a themepark, it was the first one, many developers have expanded upon the original design quite a bit, but still they all have their beginnings based in EQ.
If any of you played Curt's single player rpg you will get the flavor of what his company is probably doing with the MMO. The single player game was not good at all.
Did not expect a sandbox, but what he is describing is another themepark, there are far too many of them out there now. Jumping into such a crowded market with a product that does not really differentiate itself is just dumb.
Curt's description of UO's skill system was ignorant. Sure there was some less than useful skills, but there were plenty of different builds that were very playable. He condemns a skill system when he does not understand how it works.
He can go ahead and make his better EQ, but it has already been done many times before. It is just very disappointing another opportunity to expand the genre will not happen.
I wouldn't put EQ into the main stream themepark catogory,it was not WOW.EQ was also a skilled based MMO with feature you would not find in a themepark mmo today.
Sometimes i wonder if the people calling EQ a themepark actually played the game.
Dropping items on the ground,compas,sence heading,kick and many more skill based skills.Getting quest in EQ was far from themepark.
I can say 100% that everyone who tried old school EQ now would be lost to the point of giving up.What quests their was would make most rage quit just trying to figure out how to actually get the quest of an npc without asking another player.
First off, EQ is a themepark, it was the first one, many developers have expanded upon the original design quite a bit, but still they all have their beginnings based in EQ.
If any of you played Curt's single player rpg you will get the flavor of what his company is probably doing with the MMO. The single player game was not good at all.
Did not expect a sandbox, but what he is describing is another themepark, there are far too many of them out there now. Jumping into such a crowded market with a product that does not really differentiate itself is just dumb.
Curt's description of UO's skill system was ignorant. Sure there was some less than useful skills, but there were plenty of different builds that were very playable. He condemns a skill system when he does not understand how it works.
He can go ahead and make his better EQ, but it has already been done many times before. It is just very disappointing another opportunity to expand the genre will not happen.
I wouldn't put EQ into the main stream themepark catogory,it was not WOW.EQ was also a skilled based MMO with feature you would not find in a themepark mmo today.
Sometimes i wonder if the people calling EQ a themepark actually played the game.
Dropping items on the ground,compas,sence heading,kick and many more skill based skills.Getting quest in EQ was far from themepark.
I can say 100% that everyone who tried old school EQ now would be lost to the point of giving up.What quests their was would make most rage quit just trying to figure out how to actually get the quest of an npc without asking another player.
I could go on and on..
Of course it was a themepark. You went from level appropriate area to level appropriate area to kill things. Then once you hit level cap you tried to get better gear or go to the high level zones later on to grind aa. The level appropriate areas overlapped quite a bit more than in todays games and EQ had a ton of different places to level at, but you still have level appropriate areas to level in. There was no building anything permanent, it had a very robust crafting system and that was the closest thing the game had to a sandbox element. It was not a skill based game, it was level based. You did get better as you used your weapons or magic or other abilities, but that would be like saying vanilla wow was skill based because you had to level your weapon skill.
After Kingdoms of Amular, there's no way i'd touch anything by these yo-yo's.
If I'd wanted a singleplayer WoW, I'd have just solo'ed WoW and got the real experience.
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.- -And on the 8th day, man created God.-
Comments
I like Curt Schilling more than ever now. Straight to the point, and he called most of you guys out before you posted with that "some of you guys will bitch and will gripe" statement. Just remember, every one of you people that comment negatively are not the people that matter to Curt, and you can go wait for Guild Wars 2 and other MMO's now without this one on your list.
I for one am really looking forward to what they will deliver with Copernicus. I do not think it will be a WoW clone in any way shape or form.
"Its better to look ugly and win than pretty and lose"
That's why I hope they will fail. If they are afraid to take risks they shouldn't win. I seriously doubt they will survive on the market if the game will be same old. More and more companys are actually trying to do something new so I view those devs with "let's clone wow" mentality as subpar. And mediocrity should NOT be rewarded.
yeah i re-read what he posted about it, not making this game a sandbox is the reason WHY his game is not going to revolutionize the mmo industry i have no idea what he's thinking, the reason people are fed up and complaining all the time is due to people like this saying they will start an mmo revolution and then release a game that's a horrible themepark of some kind or something we've seen before entirely.
Well at least he gave me enough information to count on passing for this game.
KOA was disappointing at best ( IMO ) and it sounds like they are gonna play it safe with the " WOW model with a few things added ". And then market it as " Innovative and moving the genre foreward".
No thanks. But I wish them luck with their target audience.
There was no "clone WoW" mentality in Curt's message. There was a "we're using the basics and expanding on that to make the best game ever IMO" paraphrased. No one here has any idea what they're actually bringing to the table, except that it won't be entirely sandbox, it won't be twitch-based, and it will have level progression. Plenty of room for innovation available.
You guys are bashing a game that hasn't even come out yet based on a guys words. So sure it may be the same as other mmos, but why does that mean it's going to be a bad game? Something like EverQuest sounds pretty great to me. It means the graphics will be way better and therefore much more fun to play.
Smile
My first mmo was eq1, curt was a huge fan, I am sure his mmo will resemble eq1, and I am ok with that as I was a fan as well.
Please explain where in the world there is room for innovation in what Curt described. All I saw was an improved EQ. Themeparks are blaise, nothing new in them at all, no matter how they try to spin it!
Well no, I will give you that a lot of people want twitch-based mechanics. I personally am not one of them, I've experienced this gameplay and the slightest drop in FPS or server lag completely destroys an otherwise fun experience. I don't personally think it belongs in an MMO, but yes it is something I see people requesting. My point is that it's not the only thing, and you can't have been "reading the forums a long time" and not have known that. There are numerous threads and polls of things people would like to see in an MMO and twitch-based gameplay is not the only thing. You asked people to give you detailed mechanics, they are already there. Not all of them make sense or are feasble, but that doesn't mean they weren't all bad.
We both know your question was more rhetorical, it's a kind of question that assumes gamers are too stupid to know what they want and deserve to be lead by the nose by people who "know better." It's a shallow question, because those people who "know better" were just gamers themselves, taking those same ideas, and making them something. There are plenty of good ideas that never came to be (in and outside of this medium) just because the people behind those ideas never rose to power, so don't discount them.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
Just because it's not 100% sandbox, doesn't mean there won't be exploration. Maybe there'll be some innovation in what can be found when exploring. Just because it's using a non-twitch combat system doesn't mean it's going to be WoW's system with better animations. Just because it's going to have classes doesn't mean it's going to have classes in the same sense as WoW and others where you have to choose from the get-go and stick with your decision. Hell, even the leveling system can be changed somewhat if they think out of the box, but I wouldn't expect anything there. Curt was vague
And don't say "All I saw was an improved EQ" and then go on about themeparks, because EQ is not a themepark, and if what he said was an improvement on that, then apparently themepark's aren't as blasé as you say.
I repeat: Non twitch-based, non-sandbox, class-based, leveling MMO does NOT = WoW/other game of choice that's similar, until we're shown the game and have some evidence to say otherwise.
Going on to mention swtor made him feel part of a larger story worried me a bit, as I thought that since I'd finished it in two weeks (was hoping it would last a lot longer, 5 years in development for 2 weeks of story?) it wasn't really such a winning choice in a game designed to provide longevity - especially as in swtors case the rest of the game is a shallow bare bones clone.
I'd had hopes for this game considering his gaming background, and apparently doing it out of passion rather than purely in search of profit but I'm starting to worry they just plopped down a block of WoW shaped game and said 'Right, so how do we push *this* further?', rather than choosing their own jumping off point based on the history of mmos & rpgs and even some creativity.
Yeah it's a big assumption on my part, and I'd love to be surprised, but as all we really get these days are homages to WoW in one form or another, I was seriously hoping for an experience that was more than another WoW with a gimmick or two tacked on.
You know, a new game for a change. Or even a clone of anything else as a worst case scenario.
I'm not a sandbox purist but I certainly appreciate freedom in MMOs as without a doubt they've created the most memorable experiences for me, but the main gist of this was.1) Don't get your hopes up regarding any amount of freedom 2.) An appreciation for swtors limited story telling with no longevity in someone that probably has a very large say in how the game evolves is a warning flag.
I fully admit this is mostly me playing devils advocate, but as this games been on my radar for years I'm naturally concerned (considering how little we've seen of anything) that in the end it's just going to be another clunky (if Reckoning is any indication - I liked it and loved the world a lot, but that was in spite of it's clunky controls rather than because of them) WoW clone/task hub grind.
We *reeaally* don't need another one of those.
Please tell me there's a reason to keep paying attention, and if you could answer 'How?' to the below quote it would be greatly appreciated.
''What if we made you feel different, special? Then made the world something epic and awesome, then made you important in that, then made you matter in the future of that.
All of that wrapped up in an extremely polished and fun game...''
I've personally felt more important in games pre-WoW, where there was room to let the stories of my friends and I unfold, rather than having something pre-canned shoved down my throat (Oh, and now every single other player of the same class also has that exact same personal story shoved down theirs). So we're all wearing the same quest rewards, all identical, and all had identical experiences. Plus we all know exactly where we'll be, what we'll be doing and what we'll be wearing in two weeks because the linear themepark games are so carefully mapped out in terms of progression that there are no happy surprises anymore. No thanks. Sure that's a lot easier to develop for, but seriously, does that sound appealing? Does that sound like a good place for people in a creative field to end up in?
I would love to be completely wrong and find out I've completely misinterpreted everything, I'd seriously appreciate nothing more regarding this game. But as it stands, this game may be slipping out of my top 3 to watch for the first time in years.
A great game is a great game regardless of my preferences, I'm open to trying new things, I would love something new right about now. What I'm not open to is another linear task hub grind in a fantasy world devoid of any risk or danger in which everyones a winner every second of every day, we have enough of those. I don't care what gimmick or two get tacked on, I'm not interested.
In the end, I'd love to not be disappointed, but I'll stop holding my breath now.
(Edit: Wow that sounded so harsh on a second reading. Keep in mind, as I said, I'm mostly playing devils advocate and voicing my fears based on primarily my blind assumptions.)
First of all its REALLY nice to see a game developer team who come clean on what their game won't be.
TOR failed to do that, most of newly released games fail to do that, so its nice to seesomeone who can still see the customers through all the pr pollution and does not try to rely on promises they can't keep.
That said, there's nothing wrong with traditional mmo classes or combat.
Its part of the reason why MMO genre is MMO genre.
Having all those nasty and big "the new thing" mmos out there is good. But it is nice that for at least once we are getting an "oldschool mmo" that is not trying to be "uber edgy action" and might possibly reinvigorate and reinvent the genre of traditional mmo games.
Sure "traditional mmo" includes WOW. But it also includes Everquest. DAOC, Lord of The Rings Online and dozens of other flavors.
If Project Copernicus manages to invent a new flavor of a traditional mmo, I am all for it.
Also, for those who did not realize, this thread also has one post from Curt Schilling himself at the start of it ;]
# A GRIM, ODD, ARCANE SKY
# ANY GOD, I MARK SACRED
# A MASKED CRY ADORING
# A DREAMY, SICK DRAGON
Yikes, their single player RPG was just awful, Skyrim was selling more on Steam 1 week after they released KOA, and now they we already know their MMO is going to be crap.
What a mediocre developer lol, you are supposed to make GOOD games before selling out with generic garbage.
Their MMO is going to become f2p after a couple of months, unknown developers, unknown IP, generic game... yeah it doesn't look good for them."Esport with tournaments is for hardcore pvp'rs that want to be competitive. Openworld PVP with ganking and griefing is for casuals that just wants their pvp mixed with pve from time to time."
otacu
hes an even bigger wow fan
KOA looks like WOW for gods sake.
The first thing I thought when I playes it was "It's like WoW, without all the goddamn people!"
I will say that if the MMO uses KoA's combat system I will like that at least. But the rest..meh.
I think it is kind of weird to come out and say all the things it won't but not put a carrot on what it will be. Marketing is probably not happy with that message. Even if that is not the what he intended, that is how it sounds like.
Not going to right off a game that has no info on it yet, but it does make me more cautious because all i am hearing is the things its not going to be and to not bother with the game if i don't like. Very defensive and negative tone to that message.
"Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better." parrotpholk
I agree, especially considering that aside from some vague concept art, the names of people attatched to the project, and a single player game, that was somewhat lacking, set in the same world, we've seen nothing - after how many years? I might be wrong, but wasn't it 2007 that we first heard of Project Copernicus?
Now we know it won't have combat as we see it in Reckoning, so what's left that sets this game apart? Even Reckoning overall looked decidedly influenced by World of Warcraft, but somewhat less professional in a few small areas.
Obviously there are quite a few waiting to see what exactly they're bringing to a field saturated with clones, that's soon to be populated with Guild Wars 2 and a new WoW expansion amongst other new releases, that will make it worth any consideration.
That we've heard nothing but clarification regarding what it won't deliver is troubling - and it's slated to release this year?
How many times have we shaken our heads trying to fathom the thought process that leads to yet another WoW clone linear task hub grind, only to arrive at money as the perpetuator of rehashed crap in the name of profit? I assumed as the game evolved as the project of someone with apparently very little monetary motive that we'd see a project born of honest passion. If that was me and I was truly proud of what we'd created, I would probably be a bit more forthcoming regarding what players can expect, rather than what we're failing to deliver. Surely it must be something new? Anyone not purely out for profit above all else wouldn't waste time offering us a different shade of what we already have a hundred times over. Although that's likely wishful thinking.
It's all a bit worrying really. I'm interested to see more but bracing myself for the gut wrenching deflation that comes with finding out it's truly another WoW clone after all - BUT with rifts/voice-overs/public quests/any other ultimately inconsequential gimmick tacked on.
One last edit: If, however, this game does result in a situation similar to Reckoning in which I did feel I could, to some extent, just stumble into mini adventures, a large part of me will be appeased. I just can't tolerate another led by the collar game that plays like a tutorial from start to finish. That is of course if the combat isn't as easy as it was in Reckoning - seriously, fights I'm guaranteed to win even on the hardest setting are *not* fun for long, it's like playing with cheats enabled.
First off, EQ is a themepark, it was the first one, many developers have expanded upon the original design quite a bit, but still they all have their beginnings based in EQ.
If any of you played Curt's single player rpg you will get the flavor of what his company is probably doing with the MMO. The single player game was not good at all.
Did not expect a sandbox, but what he is describing is another themepark, there are far too many of them out there now. Jumping into such a crowded market with a product that does not really differentiate itself is just dumb.
Curt's description of UO's skill system was ignorant. Sure there was some less than useful skills, but there were plenty of different builds that were very playable. He condemns a skill system when he does not understand how it works.
He can go ahead and make his better EQ, but it has already been done many times before. It is just very disappointing another opportunity to expand the genre will not happen.
After their sad attempt at a single RPG i would not take anything these guy say seriously.
I wouldn't put EQ into the main stream themepark catogory,it was not WOW.EQ was also a skilled based MMO with feature you would not find in a themepark mmo today.
Sometimes i wonder if the people calling EQ a themepark actually played the game.
Dropping items on the ground,compas,sence heading,kick and many more skill based skills.Getting quest in EQ was far from themepark.
I can say 100% that everyone who tried old school EQ now would be lost to the point of giving up.What quests their was would make most rage quit just trying to figure out how to actually get the quest of an npc without asking another player.
I could go on and on..
Of course it was a themepark. You went from level appropriate area to level appropriate area to kill things. Then once you hit level cap you tried to get better gear or go to the high level zones later on to grind aa. The level appropriate areas overlapped quite a bit more than in todays games and EQ had a ton of different places to level at, but you still have level appropriate areas to level in. There was no building anything permanent, it had a very robust crafting system and that was the closest thing the game had to a sandbox element. It was not a skill based game, it was level based. You did get better as you used your weapons or magic or other abilities, but that would be like saying vanilla wow was skill based because you had to level your weapon skill.
After Kingdoms of Amular, there's no way i'd touch anything by these yo-yo's.
If I'd wanted a singleplayer WoW, I'd have just solo'ed WoW and got the real experience.
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.-
-And on the 8th day, man created God.-