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Originally posted by salenger Wurm Online. Great Sandbox Game. In that game several times over the years determined and organized Griefers has clearcut whole forests, transformed thousands of "tiles" (unit of land ingame) from Soil for farming and growing trees into Sand desert, they have mined out whole mountains and ruined whole villages. And even though some of these events happened because of Invasions by the Goons and other groups, many times these events happened because 5 or less people got together to cause mayhem and hate and discontent. It doesn't take whole guilds, just a few Players can do this.
So true, still to this day i have difficutly understanding the mindset of a griefer, why play a game with the sole intention of making the game miserable for other players? I guess in a twisted way they think its funny but and this goes back to my post about in reality one is responsible for their actions and if they choose to be a jackass there should be reprocutions and this should be somehow and in someway implemented into FFA PPV sandbox games, The system that EVE had was good...not perfect but definitely better than all other sandbox type games that have been released since UO...
Humans are Jerks. We really are.
Don't believe me? Ask the Peoples of the World that were forced to assimalate to a stronger culture. Ask the Species of life we drove into extinction (if we could).
Ask the kid at school we beat up just because he looked funny.
That's why Griefers do what they do. They have simply chosen to go down the path much further than the rest of us have. That's the only difference.
While we are on the subject, personally I see no difference between a Griefer and let's say a CEO of a major Corporation that purposely drive out the smaller companies just to make a profit.... or the Governements that invades other Countries just because they are strong enough and they want their businesses to make a profit... or a Township Clerk that purposedly drives up the Property Assessments of their Township just because they hate People they deem as "White Trash".... or the Slavery we justified over and over and over and the Slavery we now turn a blind eye to.....
I could go on but I won't. You perhaps get my point.
Our world society, our race, I classify as Lawful Evil. The Griefers are the ones that think outside the box is all.
Originally posted by Moaky07 Originally posted by kumdankale they can't steal the trees inside your house area (very small) and scarecrow. if you plant other than that areas it can be stolen but it leaves a footprint of the stealer on the ground and you collect them. with enough evidences the thief can go to Prison. there will be also a trial (court) system they said, not implemented yet though.
Thirty minutes in time out isnt going to deter a griefer. Thirty days on the other hand would, especially if it was at the account level.
At least there is a system for keeping things from going extinct according to you. I was just looking at things out in the "open", cause eventually folks would run out of seeds. By having a couple trees each, that folks cant get to, it will keep it in check.
Have no doubts about it, there will be griefers. It is up to Devs to limit the potential damage.
Griefers and anti-Griefers make it fun. I for one am tired of open world carebear. I do agree there needs to be some sort of system to make it even more interesting, but let the griefers have their fun. If all the trees went extinct that would be kind of funny. I bet the few seeds left on the auction house would be worth a fortune LOL. I think I have a get rich idea now thanks
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh Not "jail time". A wanted list. If you are a griefer, you should get griefed Now the griefer is farmed for a period of time. The character gets a flag on him that says Wanted. So, anyone(s) who kill him, get rewared. Being on a KOS list a few times might cure people of acting like an @$$
Many times it does yes, at least it does in Wurm Online.
It also pumps some Players up and make them more of a Griefer than they were before... they love the spotlight those do.
How well AA's system works depends on how/why a Player gets KOSd/Wanted, also how much or little the Reward is.
Honestly, I don't really care if they have anti-grief features or not. I'll adapt, my clan will adapt, and I'm sure most others will learn to adapt too. As long as the devs give us the tools, then we'll find a way to defend our trees and houses from thieves. If they don't give us the tools, then we'll use some other mechanic and exploit it so our trees and houses will be safe. If this is truly a sandbox, then people will adapt. Of course, adding features like a crime system and other things that punish acts like stealing and stuff would make life easier, but if they don't... then I'll find a way. We'll find a way.
I say all this, but I truly hope they add a good system that makes it not worth it or too risky to steal a few things here and there. If people want to commit crimes then make it so doing petty things wouldn't be worth their time and if they want some really valuable stuff then they will have to risk a lot to get it. Or you could go the lazy route and give people hireable NPC guards that insta-gibs everyone... which is lame and boring.
Originally posted by RefMinor It's a PvP sandbox, as Moaky sensibly said, it's not his game and he isn't going to play it, it will be getting a lot of hype before it comes out as "the one" and a lot of PvE types will try it and rage quit after someone slits their throat and steals their boots. That's life in a PvP sandbox, they are usually designed that it doesn't take too much work to get back what you lose. But if someone wants your land and house and kills you and sets fire to your house that's just part of the game*, military strength matters, you either fight back and win, or run away and give him the land, or you find some like minded people and band together for protection and drive him off. If that doesn't sound exciting then stick to something that suits you, because ArcheAge is not the game you are looking for. *this might not actually be part of the game thinking about it.
Actually it is probably more akin to meeting up with Bubba in a jail cell for those unfamiliar with the concept of open PVP.
BTW rather than spam this forum with another thread.....what are the initial leanings for this "council" to make decisions about major crimes? By that I mean are they picked randomly, or by server vote etc? Something like that would of been nice in EQ, although most guilds would enforce kicking out KSers/griefers on the PVE servers. I had no exp on PVP servers save the ramblings of Sam da man Deathwalker on FOH.
Anyways sorry if I have ruffled feathers. I dont go into other game forums to stir shit, as I wish folks to respect my games forums as well. Just was curious as I do read other forums at times.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Originally posted by neosapience I don't know why people subject themselves to behavior that would be considered criminal in real life. If you don't like greifing, don't support games that promote it.
Umm seriously? Its a game hence magic, swords, slaughtering dragons, animals, dungeon mobs. All would be considered criminal or impossible in real life but this is a damn game. Your post is pointless.
Originally posted by Yizle Originally posted by neosapience I don't know why people subject themselves to behavior that would be considered criminal in real life. If you don't like greifing, don't support games that promote it.
lol i agree. Its a sandbox game. Its not a game just for people to have fun and play peaceful. There will also be elitists, people wanting to show-off their e-peens, pkers, and of course griefers. Theres going to be people that enjoy peace and order, but also players that love chaos. People will always find ways to grief no matter what the devs try to do. Griefers are that damn creative, they always find a retarded method to grief people with when they get bored with their lives. You just have to adapt to it and not make yourself a target. Maybe eventually the devs will find ways to prevent it from happening again, or gm's will start bringing down the hammer if it gets too extreme. Just got to survive until then.
anti measures? It's called having thick skin. If you are worried about the trees then you can role play some tree hugger that replants them. you beg for a sand box then beg for restrictions and ways to hamper how another person wants to play a game they are paying for because it isnt how you want them to play.
How many delicate flowers have you met in Counterstrike?
I got a case of beer and a chainsaw waiting for me at home after work.
Originally posted by Bruise187 anti measures? It's called having thick skin. If you are worried about the trees then you can role play some tree hugger that replants them. you beg for a sand box then beg for restrictions and ways to hamper how another person wants to play a game they are paying for because it isnt how you want them to play.
Even better, there should be a system that allows the tree huggers to come up with their own seed variants, and then they can spread them through the land. They can even plant poison ivy around the homesteads of those they deem "anti-tree." I think there can be entire tree-based objectives that could be envisioned and implemented by the tree-hugger clans. That is the type of thing that can happen in a vibrant sandbox.
Of course, killing is fun too LOL...
Did you bother to read the thread? I bet ya didnt.
I was just curious what was going to keep a group of folks from griefing an item out of the game. It doesnt affect me one way or another if AA makes it, as I wont be playing. I have a couple of folks I like here on MMORPG that will be playing though, so for their sake I hope the game does good.
I am a TOR hugger though......I already tried planting some seeds in that games forums, but some folks are insistent on burning them down with daily forum PVP. So could I get a partial cookie for the effort?
Originally posted by Moaky07 Originally posted by Bruise187 anti measures? It's called having thick skin. If you are worried about the trees then you can role play some tree hugger that replants them. you beg for a sand box then beg for restrictions and ways to hamper how another person wants to play a game they are paying for because it isnt how you want them to play.
nope didnt read all the 7 or so lines. Like I said it said item is being depleted then be the one to replace it. There is always a group that wants to be the good guy and try and defend something from the evil pvpers or griefers. it might be a silly tree/ttrees or a town that they have chosen as there own just cause. AC2 had a group that acted (cherud or cherish or something like that) and role played knights and defended all us noobs ... till we joined a pvp group and turned on them Soulreap and coldeve server later i think..
Originally posted by Bruise187 Originally posted by Moaky07 Originally posted by Bruise187 anti measures? It's called having thick skin. If you are worried about the trees then you can role play some tree hugger that replants them. you beg for a sand box then beg for restrictions and ways to hamper how another person wants to play a game they are paying for because it isnt how you want them to play.
exactly. If there is a group willing to wipe out all trees becaue they are quitting or just felt like it, then bet that 5 more groups are willing to replant the trees. People will adapt one way or another.
Just to play devil's advocate here....griefers are sometimes capable of being some of the nicest players in the game when they want to be. Best way to deal with a griefer is to ignore them or play along. It is definitely possible to win MOST griefers over in one way or another if you try. Last thing you want to do is whine like a little baby. Just some food for thought.
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It's a predatory instinct. All it takes to understand it is to play a game that allows it and go gank some new players. I tried this once and my heart started racing as I seen them run away and I got all excited as I slaughtered those players. That's the only time I can remember doing it and now I can say I understand the draw of it. However, it doesn't mean I condone the behavior or agree with it. There needs to be a realistic penalty for griefing, something akin to what we have in real life. A court system, with fines, jail time, and even death. Death is too extreme for paying customers, but a player bounty system that only good aligned people can access which offers bounties on griefers would be awesome and may be all that's needed as long as death is extremely painful for the griefers and there's a way to track them like Bounty Hunter's had in SWG.
Originally posted by Gardavsshade Originally posted by neosapience I don't know why people subject themselves to behavior that would be considered criminal in real life. If you don't like greifing, don't support games that promote it.
Sapience? I suppose you are going to tell me to stop "Tilting at windmills" again. If you are the Sapience......
I will answer your question.
Freedom. Freedom to do, to move, to act, to react, in the game world. Freedom to do so without being funneled through content or herding like livestock from point a to b to c to... Freedom to set my OWN goals or not set them.... my choice...
Player Freedom is why I fell in love with MMOs as a hobby years ago and Freedom, Player Freedom, real freedom ingame, is what is lacking more and more in MMO game design. I still look for MMOs with real ingame freedom of activity for Players.
That Freedom comes with a price, a price that many devoted MMO Players are willing to gladly pay... the price of other Players doing negative towrds the game world or you personally. Just like in a Real Democracy. I will leave that right there....
The trick is to pay the price and not whine about it. We all have. Happy Sailor is a complaining Sailor...
That is why we are more willing to financially support a MMO that provides freedom for all Players ingame, even with the negatives, than to support MMOs that treat you like a head of livestock on a leash.
That's also why I have such a low opinion of all Themepark MMOs. I have both styles for years and only Sandbox MMOs give me what I seek.
So the griefers get the best of both worlds then? They get the awesome sandbox game they ever wanted, and get to prey upon others? No, there needs to be freedom, as you say, and systems to control griefing. I think auto-generated player bounties would work, with the griefer suffering steep death penalties (some lost gear or substantial xp loss including level loss if he just leveled), and a substantial gold loss (fine).
Originally posted by grafh i was under the impression that after enough criminal offences, you can no longer enter towns without the guards attacking you. then you become a pirate.
Yeah, then you have to go to pirate island to work off your debt. Which will allow guilds to go raid their to keep griefers from working their griefing off lol.
Well certain anti-grief / prison mechanics ,etc should be implemented and they might and I hope they will , make griefing less common and just rarer but IMHO people have to realize that there still WILL BE griefing and ganking.
This is unavoidable with certain kind of freedom in game.
You cannot have the cake (freedom) and eat it (don't have people that abuse it).
Simple as that.
Imo you have to imprint that into your minds or don't start playing cause you'll be disappointed.
Originally posted by Mellkor Originally posted by Moaky07 Originally posted by kumdankale they can't steal the trees inside your house area (very small) and scarecrow. if you plant other than that areas it can be stolen but it leaves a footprint of the stealer on the ground and you collect them. with enough evidences the thief can go to Prison. there will be also a trial (court) system they said, not implemented yet though.
If I were to play a "theif" character, spending 30 days in lockup (which im paying for) sounds ridiculous. I would however support something 2h on the 'guilty' character.
I'm all for it. I think there should be severe consequences. Otherwise you can grief for hours, get sent to jail and go to bed AFK and wake up without any conseqence.
And since you'll probably have multiple characters, you'll still be able to play the game.
There is a difference between Democracy, which you're not describing, and Anarchy, which you are. The game you're describing is anarchy and gang-warfare. Like Somalia. It's not Democracy, like an EU or NA country.
And while you say "many" the truth is it's a very small sub-genre represented by Eve Online. And while they have 400K subs, the player base (at 2.7 subs/player) is far smaller at 150K. So, while you wish to anecdotally draw from your personal preferences and support your very narrow game play model. I wish to look at the broad-market and see just how important griefer-friendly MMOs are....
And they're not important or well liked or, with few exceptions, successful over time - short or long.
So, if you're gonna have an open-world, sandbox-MMO... You've got to put into place the ability to prevent griefing, stealing and other anti-social behaviors. Otherwise you're just not going to attact and keep an audience.
Originally posted by bunnyhopper Originally posted by Moaky07 Originally posted by kumdankale
You would have to question a company that makes a gameplay style available within a game and then punishes the user in real financial terms for doing it.
The way to reduce griefing is to motivate a playerbase with at least a modicum of a sense of community and the ability to organise and protect themselves.
Griefing is so much easier nowadays because 80% of the playerbase is hell bent on soloing, people simply do not make the ties in the server communities anymore.
The community. LOL, it won't fixed the problem. Punishing the player is better. While jail is interesting, how about more creative solutions. Allow players to purchase curses that affect the offending player and can't be removed until heavy questing or other expensive cost happens. Put some risk into for the griefer and isn't that what they have been saying for years that risk and unexpected encounters are what makes it fun?
I've found a good information for this on the english site.
Originally posted by waynejr2 Originally posted by bunnyhopper Originally posted by Moaky07 Originally posted by kumdankale