Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Fuzzy Avatars Solved! Please re-upload your avatar if it was fuzzy!

casual=grind ?

bishboshbishbosh SydneyPosts: 388Member

all the so called "casual games"  (wow, rift, swtor) are actually extremely grindy. why are these games refered to as being casual when it takes many many hours to accomplish things like grinding for pvp ranks etc i consider my self a casual player and these games turn me off because i dont have the time to grind pvp rank just so the game is fair for me.

i think mindless and time consuming would be a better description rather than casual. anyone can get anything in these games as long as they bash their head against a wall for long enough. these games reward time spent rather than skill and desiscion making.

 

Comments

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans BergenPosts: 2,273Member

    WoW and Rift are not grindy compared to some games, but I get where you're coming from.

  • PheerMeehPheerMeeh Lowell, MAPosts: 41Member

    Originally posted by bishbosh

    all the so called "casual games"  (wow, rift, swtor) are actually extremely grindy. why are these games refered to as being casual when it takes many many hours to accomplish things like grinding for pvp ranks etc i consider my self a casual player and these games turn me off because i dont have the time to grind pvp rank just so the game is fair for me.

    i think mindless and time consuming would be a better description rather than casual. anyone can get anything in these games as long as they bash their head against a wall for long enough. these games reward time spent rather than skill and desiscion making.

     

     

    I think that right there is your answer. many game devolopers nowadays consider handholding and simplicity a thing for casual players. At least thats what i think. I guess a casual gamer to them is someone who doesn't want to spend the time to learn "complex" things and just want to get straight into the "fun" stuff. i dont really think they put the grind for certain things into consideration for casual players though lol.

    to game companies, making things casual is making things more simple and less of a hassle to understand or do. 

  • neosapienceneosapience Reno, NVPosts: 164Member

    Originally posted by PheerMeeh

    ...and just want to get straight into the "fun" stuff.

     

    This is the problem right here. The average gamer enjoys the grind, which is why it exists. People that do not enjoy the grind are going to hate the bulk of the MMOs out there.

     

    Remember, gaming companies are trying to make money, and they can't do that by making games that a large portion of their audience won't enjoy.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,641Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by bishbosh

    all the so called "casual games"  (wow, rift, swtor) are actually extremely grindy. why are these games refered to as being casual when it takes many many hours to accomplish things like grinding for pvp ranks etc i consider my self a casual player and these games turn me off because i dont have the time to grind pvp rank just so the game is fair for me.

    i think mindless and time consuming would be a better description rather than casual. anyone can get anything in these games as long as they bash their head against a wall for long enough. these games reward time spent rather than skill and desiscion making.

    A grind is an arduous task or a laborious task, often repetitive. Not all tasks, even when repetitive are arduous or feel like work. If the repeated task is considered enjoyable it's not a grind.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • BrenelaelBrenelael Warren, MEPosts: 3,996Member

    If you don't like grinding you don't like MMO's... It's that simple. All MMOs have a grind element to them as it's part of what makes them MMOs. Some have a mob grind, others have a quest grind, yet others have a gear grind and some have a market grind. Most have some combination of several or all of these elements. If you think todays MMOs are grindy you should go and play some of the pre-WoW era games. The grind is a necessary evil to give you a sense of progression which is the bread and butter of MMOs. It also keeps you playing and paying forever chasing that next 'Carot on a stick'.

     

    Bren

    while(horse==dead)
    {
    beat();
    }

  • PheerMeehPheerMeeh Lowell, MAPosts: 41Member

    Originally posted by neosapience

    Originally posted by PheerMeeh



    ...and just want to get straight into the "fun" stuff.

     

    This is the problem right here. The average gamer enjoys the grind, which is why it exists. People that do not enjoy the grind are going to hate the bulk of the MMOs out there.

     

    Remember, gaming companies are trying to make money, and they can't do that by making games that a large portion of their audience won't enjoy.

     i agree. 

    i do not mind at all that game companies are starting to make their games appeal to more casual audiences now. they need to make their game appeal to as many people as possible, or else there probably won't be a game. especially if they spent so much money on it. Of course, that does not give them an excuse to put out a crap game because they "casualized" the crap out of it. But then again maybe its only crap to me, while many other players enjoy the game thoroughly.

    Companies need to find that perfect in between so they don't lose a large portion of either sides of the audience. And I don't think anyone has really found the goldilocks solution yet. There are so many mmo's out there now and so many mmo vets. Its really hard to please a large audience unless you get people that have never played an MMO before or have little experience with the genre. Then maybe you'll get some people that are amazed by your product because its the first time they've played anything like it lol.

  • MosesZDMosesZD Kirkwood, MOPosts: 1,383Member

    Originally posted by bishbosh

    all the so called "casual games"  (wow, rift, swtor) are actually extremely grindy. why are these games refered to as being casual when it takes many many hours to accomplish things like grinding for pvp ranks etc i consider my self a casual player and these games turn me off because i dont have the time to grind pvp rank just so the game is fair for me.

    i think mindless and time consuming would be a better description rather than casual. anyone can get anything in these games as long as they bash their head against a wall for long enough. these games reward time spent rather than skill and desiscion making.

     

     

    You know, it's funny, but grind often doesn't bother me.   As long as it's voluntary, it's fine.   For example, grinding hides in LOTRO so I could rank up my crafting.   Or grinding the 1000's of 'correctly-leveled'  kills to get the Master of Ice Spear title which requires over 7,000 kills of ranked enemies, including 60 bosses, in various categories...  

     

    Because in the end I got an accomplishment.   Not just a skill, but something either useful or noteworthy.   

     

    OTOH, when I played SWTOR the grind was excruciating.   You'd have to fight your way into the instance by killing tons of trash-mobs on a mandatory 'voluntary' quest.   You'd run the instance.   Then you'd have to fight your way back out of the instance full of those trash mobs.   And, as the server populations kept dropping, you were less and less likely to have anyone else killing those trash mobs as well.   So you'd be stuck killing a 100 in and a 100 out...   With very little reward and a lot of boring time-sink.

     

    And the same thing goes for gear-grinding.   LOTRO the gear grinding was not particularly time consuming until the Return to Isengard expansion.   You could get a full set of Annuminas armor in two weeks, tops, running the 3-man School and Library instances once a day.    Faster if you got some lucky drops on tokens.    Then they made the gear raid-dependent.   I ran some of those raids for months to get one pair of boots.  Some I never got anything.    I finally burned out chasing medallions to get my Level 75 Second Age weapons.   A month of doing stuff, but never winning the rolls...  

     

    So, for me, it's dependent.   If I'm being forced...  It's a chore.   If i do it because I want to, and can do it when I want to, then I'm fine with it.

  • MosesZDMosesZD Kirkwood, MOPosts: 1,383Member

    Originally posted by PheerMeeh

    Originally posted by neosapience


    Originally posted by PheerMeeh



    ...and just want to get straight into the "fun" stuff.

     

    This is the problem right here. The average gamer enjoys the grind, which is why it exists. People that do not enjoy the grind are going to hate the bulk of the MMOs out there.

     

    Remember, gaming companies are trying to make money, and they can't do that by making games that a large portion of their audience won't enjoy.

     i agree. 

    i do not mind at all that game companies are starting to make their games appeal to more casual audiences now. they need to make their game appeal to as many people as possible, or else there probably won't be a game. especially if they spent so much money on it. Of course, that does not give them an excuse to put out a crap game because they "casualized" the crap out of it. But then again maybe its only crap to me, while many other players enjoy the game thoroughly.

    Companies need to find that perfect in between so they don't lose a large portion of either sides of the audience. And I don't think anyone has really found the goldilocks solution yet. There are so many mmo's out there now and so many mmo vets. Its really hard to please a large audience unless you get people that have never played an MMO before or have little experience with the genre. Then maybe you'll get some people that are amazed by your product because its the first time they've played anything like it lol.

     

    The problem is casual gamers are casual.   They come and go.    Yet, for an MMO, you need dedicated, long-term gamers.    So you really want to make games that appeal to these long-term dedicated gamers.    And I say dedicated to keep away from all the BS that surrounds the term 'hard core.'     And, frankly, I think it's a better term.   Many gamers are dedicated to games, but aren't interested in a lot of what we associate with 'hard core.'

     

    So, when you make a game that appeals to the casual gamer, you're almost always dumbing it down.   Making it easy.  Making is so everything is scripted to give the appearence of challenge without actually being challenging.   Thay may fool the casual gamer, for a while, but the dedicated gamers see through it pretty soon and they leave..   

     

    So, in the end, the casuals leave because that's what they do.   The dedicated gamers leave because it is too easy and they're looking for something that presents a challenge.   And now, by trying to please everyone, you've driven away your long-term base for short-term gains and, ultimately, your franchise fails.

     

    I think it's better to ignore the casuals and not try to be everything to everyone.     I think that's the lesson SWTOR will teach.   By making one of the easiest, most casual freindly MMOs, they lost the dedicated MMO gamer from the equation.    I'm  a guy who plays an MMO for a year or more.   If you've bored me to tears in a month...   You're doing it wrong.

     

  • bishboshbishbosh SydneyPosts: 388Member

    Originally posted by Brenelael

    If you don't like grinding you don't like MMO's... It's that simple. All MMOs have a grind element to them as it's part of what makes them MMOs. Some have a mob grind, others have a quest grind, yet others have a gear grind and some have a market grind. Most have some combination of several or all of these elements. If you think todays MMOs are grindy you should go and play some of the pre-WoW era games. The grind is a necessary evil to give you a sense of progression which is the bread and butter of MMOs. It also keeps you playing and paying forever chasing that next 'Carot on a stick'.

     

    Bren

    while most mmorpgs have grind involved i dont think it is a requirement. 

    generally most people define grind as being any mundane mindless repetitve task. there is a great deal of subjectvity regarding this as what some people find boring, others might find to be quite stimulating.

    generally pvp is not grindy however most themepark mmorpgs( with pvp rank gear, pvp points etc etc) tend to make pvp grindy because one has to farm these points and it is not fun farming these points because your character is weaker than those who have already farmed these points and all you can really do is "bang your head against a wall" until you have enough pvp points to start having fun.

    pve can me made non grindy by making it dynamic as many games are trying to do. different events influence other events resulting in unique pve situtations every time. pvp can also influence pve to make it unique every time,  you might be farming mob X but one day guild Y decides to farm mob X all for themselves. now you have an interesting PVP/PVE situation that is non grindy as it is challenging and unique. you can either farm mob A (doesnt give as good drops) or you can fight guild Y for mob X. this is considerably more interesting than the standard do quest X for 500 rep until you have 5000000 rep-->see you in a month neckbeard.

    scripted fights in instances will always be grindy because its the same thing everytime. put that boss+mobs in the open world and BAM you have the complex PVP/PVE interaction that will be different everytime. Give that boss+mobs the power to destroy NPC or player settlements thaty will in turn effect other aspects of the game and you have an extremely dynamic situation on your hands.

    i dont see how playing the market is a grind. the market is constantly changing and you need always be aware of current trends. im assuming you are reffering to sandbox mmorpg markets because themeparks dont really have a market that you can profit off.

  • QuesaQuesa Sacramento, CAPosts: 1,246Member

    Originally posted by bishbosh

    all the so called "casual games"  (wow, rift, swtor) are actually extremely grindy. why are these games refered to as being casual when it takes many many hours to accomplish things like grinding for pvp ranks etc i consider my self a casual player and these games turn me off because i dont have the time to grind pvp rank just so the game is fair for me.

    i think mindless and time consuming would be a better description rather than casual. anyone can get anything in these games as long as they bash their head against a wall for long enough. these games reward time spent rather than skill and desiscion making.

     

    I find it dissapointing that you would use the word grind so losely.  WoW, RIFT and SWTOR have so little grind that's disturbing to see the term used in the same sentance as these games.  If you are going to use that term so losely, you might as well admit that everything in your life is a grind, even typing your post was a grind.

    It's the same sort of thing when people use catch words and phrases such as dynamic and innovative when the very thing they are describing is no more than a fancy trigger to the same stimuli.

  • XthosXthos Columbus, OHPosts: 2,628Member

    They are boring grindy....Daily this, daily that....badge...badge....token....token....woohoo

     

    Where as a lot of other games have grind, but it is throughout the game more, spread into every aspect, some say the daily grind is more fun and exciting....Some say the longer leveling and such are more fun...

     

    Thats why I like games with good PvP, PvE, crafting, harvesting, and even side stuff, then I am not worried about the later, as I keep things fresh and fun, which can work for both types, but the former type usually make cheap everything but PvE imo...The later with the grind spread, is more fun imo, I get tired of one thing, I switch up and do something else, but what I switch to has to be worth doing....If only PvE is worth it, or scenarios or some such, then I refuse to do it, and I am left with a daily grind and nothing else...Where I got to in Rift...Swtor....I am tired of boring daily junk...

     

    Everyone is different, but I prefer to have quality choices.

     

  • PheerMeehPheerMeeh Lowell, MAPosts: 41Member

    Originally posted by MosesZD

    Originally posted by PheerMeeh


    Originally posted by neosapience


    Originally posted by PheerMeeh



    ...and just want to get straight into the "fun" stuff.

     

    This is the problem right here. The average gamer enjoys the grind, which is why it exists. People that do not enjoy the grind are going to hate the bulk of the MMOs out there.

     

    Remember, gaming companies are trying to make money, and they can't do that by making games that a large portion of their audience won't enjoy.

     i agree. 

    i do not mind at all that game companies are starting to make their games appeal to more casual audiences now. they need to make their game appeal to as many people as possible, or else there probably won't be a game. especially if they spent so much money on it. Of course, that does not give them an excuse to put out a crap game because they "casualized" the crap out of it. But then again maybe its only crap to me, while many other players enjoy the game thoroughly.

    Companies need to find that perfect in between so they don't lose a large portion of either sides of the audience. And I don't think anyone has really found the goldilocks solution yet. There are so many mmo's out there now and so many mmo vets. Its really hard to please a large audience unless you get people that have never played an MMO before or have little experience with the genre. Then maybe you'll get some people that are amazed by your product because its the first time they've played anything like it lol.

     

    The problem is casual gamers are casual.   They come and go.    Yet, for an MMO, you need dedicated, long-term gamers.    So you really want to make games that appeal to these long-term dedicated gamers.    And I say dedicated to keep away from all the BS that surrounds the term 'hard core.'     And, frankly, I think it's a better term.   Many gamers are dedicated to games, but aren't interested in a lot of what we associate with 'hard core.'

     

    So, when you make a game that appeals to the casual gamer, you're almost always dumbing it down.   Making it easy.  Making is so everything is scripted to give the appearence of challenge without actually being challenging.   Thay may fool the casual gamer, for a while, but the dedicated gamers see through it pretty soon and they leave..   

     

    So, in the end, the casuals leave because that's what they do.   The dedicated gamers leave because it is too easy and they're looking for something that presents a challenge.   And now, by trying to please everyone, you've driven away your long-term base for short-term gains and, ultimately, your franchise fails.

     

    I think it's better to ignore the casuals and not try to be everything to everyone.     I think that's the lesson SWTOR will teach.   By making one of the easiest, most casual freindly MMOs, they lost the dedicated MMO gamer from the equation.    I'm  a guy who plays an MMO for a year or more.   If you've bored me to tears in a month...   You're doing it wrong.

     

    You sir, are also correct. The problem is, what major game developing company has the balls to do this? Their balls are held tight by the publishers that are giving them the money to make their game. The publishers want them to appeal to everyone in the universe so they can make the most profit out of it. "Oh, this seems popular right now, so lets change this about your game and make it more like this feature in this other game." "Oh this might be a little too complex for people that are new to this genre so lets simplify it." 

    The only companies that are willing to take risks are the few indie companies. Indie teams like Aventurine that had the balls to put out Darkfall, or Starvault who had the guts to make Mortal Online. Somehow their games are still going, it may be far from perfect, but its somehow still going. Of course, other companies that took the risks arent as fortunate.. like the team that made Earthrise or Dawntide. They went under.

    So by targeting only the long-term gamers or a niche crowd, you are taking big risks... because to actually be able to target long-term gamers you're going to need to have a very very good game. Most likely a game that isn't your typical mainstream MMO. At least for me it would have to be.

  • Mari2kMari2k rzhz, MNPosts: 371Member

    wrong.

     

    casual = fun

  • bishboshbishbosh SydneyPosts: 388Member

    Originally posted by Quesa

    Originally posted by bishbosh

    all the so called "casual games"  (wow, rift, swtor) are actually extremely grindy. why are these games refered to as being casual when it takes many many hours to accomplish things like grinding for pvp ranks etc i consider my self a casual player and these games turn me off because i dont have the time to grind pvp rank just so the game is fair for me.

    i think mindless and time consuming would be a better description rather than casual. anyone can get anything in these games as long as they bash their head against a wall for long enough. these games reward time spent rather than skill and desiscion making.

     

    I find it dissapointing that you would use the word grind so losely.  WoW, RIFT and SWTOR have so little grind that's disturbing to see the term used in the same sentance as these games.  If you are going to use that term so losely, you might as well admit that everything in your life is a grind, even typing your post was a grind.

    It's the same sort of thing when people use catch words and phrases such as dynamic and innovative when the very thing they are describing is no more than a fancy trigger to the same stimuli.

    they are grindy.

    running the same boss that has been programmed to do exactly the same thing every time until you have all the gear you want is grinding. if you enjoy it good for you but it is still a mundane predictable repetitive task.

    doing a battlegorund/warftont until you have a enough pvp points to get gear that allows you to actually do something which is not dieing repeatedly in the battleground is a grind. 

    doing the same dailies every day to get some crafting recipe is grind. make x of y potion and hand it in for one badge. once you have 10 badges you can purchased the recipe for potion Z. repeat for potion A, B, C ........

    its all a grind and apparently it is considered casual. i guess casual means bang your head against a brick wall until you have all the shinies.

     

  • QuesaQuesa Sacramento, CAPosts: 1,246Member

    Originally posted by bishbosh

    Originally posted by Quesa


    Originally posted by bishbosh

    all the so called "casual games"  (wow, rift, swtor) are actually extremely grindy. why are these games refered to as being casual when it takes many many hours to accomplish things like grinding for pvp ranks etc i consider my self a casual player and these games turn me off because i dont have the time to grind pvp rank just so the game is fair for me.

    i think mindless and time consuming would be a better description rather than casual. anyone can get anything in these games as long as they bash their head against a wall for long enough. these games reward time spent rather than skill and desiscion making.

     

    I find it dissapointing that you would use the word grind so losely.  WoW, RIFT and SWTOR have so little grind that's disturbing to see the term used in the same sentance as these games.  If you are going to use that term so losely, you might as well admit that everything in your life is a grind, even typing your post was a grind.

    It's the same sort of thing when people use catch words and phrases such as dynamic and innovative when the very thing they are describing is no more than a fancy trigger to the same stimuli.

    they are grindy.

    running the same boss that has been programmed to do exactly the same thing every time until you have all the gear you want is grinding. if you enjoy it good for you but it is still a mundane predictable repetitive task.

    doing a battlegorund/warftont until you have a enough pvp points to get gear that allows you to actually do something which is not dieing repeatedly in the battleground is a grind. 

     

    I'm not contesting that there are repetative elements to the game, rather the choice of words.  Sorry to sound like an old fart on the porch but if you are calling these activities a grind then you have no idea what grind means.

  • bishboshbishbosh SydneyPosts: 388Member

    Originally posted by Quesa

    Originally posted by bishbosh


    Originally posted by Quesa


    Originally posted by bishbosh

    all the so called "casual games"  (wow, rift, swtor) are actually extremely grindy. why are these games refered to as being casual when it takes many many hours to accomplish things like grinding for pvp ranks etc i consider my self a casual player and these games turn me off because i dont have the time to grind pvp rank just so the game is fair for me.

    i think mindless and time consuming would be a better description rather than casual. anyone can get anything in these games as long as they bash their head against a wall for long enough. these games reward time spent rather than skill and desiscion making.

     

    I find it dissapointing that you would use the word grind so losely.  WoW, RIFT and SWTOR have so little grind that's disturbing to see the term used in the same sentance as these games.  If you are going to use that term so losely, you might as well admit that everything in your life is a grind, even typing your post was a grind.

    It's the same sort of thing when people use catch words and phrases such as dynamic and innovative when the very thing they are describing is no more than a fancy trigger to the same stimuli.

    they are grindy.

    running the same boss that has been programmed to do exactly the same thing every time until you have all the gear you want is grinding. if you enjoy it good for you but it is still a mundane predictable repetitive task.

    doing a battlegorund/warftont until you have a enough pvp points to get gear that allows you to actually do something which is not dieing repeatedly in the battleground is a grind. 

     

    I'm not contesting that there are repetative elements to the game, rather the choice of words.  Sorry to sound like an old fart on the porch but if you are calling these activities a grind then you have no idea what grind means.

    so how would you define grind.

    for me grind is any repetitive mundane task. the more you have to repeat this task the more grindy it is.

    running a scripted boss fight more than once would technically be a grind but only just. it would still be fairly enjoyable the second time. maybe even the 3rd, 4th and 5th time depending on how unique and new the boss fight is.

    if it the boss fight is just a tank and spank like every other boss figght well then i would call it a grind right off the bat because it is a mundance and repetive task because i have been doing something similar already.

  • fenistilfenistil GliwicePosts: 3,005Member

    Grind is subjective what for one person will be grind ,it won't for another one.

     

    For example for me running insances to get enough medallions for armor is grind ,while for many people it is not.

    Same thing I find some other repeatable activities in mmorpg's quite enjoyable , like collecting stuff to build my house in game or exploring & hunting for some rare mob / thing - while other ppl would find it an awful grind.

     

     

    Besides imo grind has not so much to do with casual / hardcore ,but more with personal preferences.

  • PheerMeehPheerMeeh Lowell, MAPosts: 41Member

    Originally posted by Quesa

    Originally posted by bishbosh


    Originally posted by Quesa


    Originally posted by bishbosh

    all the so called "casual games"  (wow, rift, swtor) are actually extremely grindy. why are these games refered to as being casual when it takes many many hours to accomplish things like grinding for pvp ranks etc i consider my self a casual player and these games turn me off because i dont have the time to grind pvp rank just so the game is fair for me.

    i think mindless and time consuming would be a better description rather than casual. anyone can get anything in these games as long as they bash their head against a wall for long enough. these games reward time spent rather than skill and desiscion making.

     

    I find it dissapointing that you would use the word grind so losely.  WoW, RIFT and SWTOR have so little grind that's disturbing to see the term used in the same sentance as these games.  If you are going to use that term so losely, you might as well admit that everything in your life is a grind, even typing your post was a grind.

    It's the same sort of thing when people use catch words and phrases such as dynamic and innovative when the very thing they are describing is no more than a fancy trigger to the same stimuli.

    they are grindy.

    running the same boss that has been programmed to do exactly the same thing every time until you have all the gear you want is grinding. if you enjoy it good for you but it is still a mundane predictable repetitive task.

    doing a battlegorund/warftont until you have a enough pvp points to get gear that allows you to actually do something which is not dieing repeatedly in the battleground is a grind. 

     

    I'm not contesting that there are repetative elements to the game, rather the choice of words.  Sorry to sound like an old fart on the porch but if you are calling these activities a grind then you have no idea what grind means.

    A grind is when someone does something over and over and over. Doesn't matter if they enjoy  the process or not, its a grind. It may not seem like a grind to some other people who have done worse, but to them it is.

    "Oh i have to grind on this mob for an hour or 2 more so I can get my next lvl". Thats how it is. Its simple, it doesn't have a hidden meaning behind it. I've done my fair share of grinding in many mmo's. some i've enjoyed, but most i've hated with a passion... to the point where if i see or hear that f***ing mob again i am going to vomit. Or if i have to swing this motherf***ing sword one more time to get my motherf***king greatsword up .01 more point i am going to turn this sword side ways and stick it up your candy ass.

    I don't mind the grind as long as the goal is something i really want or if im actually having some fun grinding whatever it is i'm grinding up. I might rage to myself along the way, but if it gets me what I want then I'll do it.

  • BrenelaelBrenelael Warren, MEPosts: 3,996Member

    Originally posted by Quesa

    Originally posted by bishbosh


    Originally posted by Quesa


    Originally posted by bishbosh

    all the so called "casual games"  (wow, rift, swtor) are actually extremely grindy. why are these games refered to as being casual when it takes many many hours to accomplish things like grinding for pvp ranks etc i consider my self a casual player and these games turn me off because i dont have the time to grind pvp rank just so the game is fair for me.

    i think mindless and time consuming would be a better description rather than casual. anyone can get anything in these games as long as they bash their head against a wall for long enough. these games reward time spent rather than skill and desiscion making.

     

    I find it dissapointing that you would use the word grind so losely.  WoW, RIFT and SWTOR have so little grind that's disturbing to see the term used in the same sentance as these games.  If you are going to use that term so losely, you might as well admit that everything in your life is a grind, even typing your post was a grind.

    It's the same sort of thing when people use catch words and phrases such as dynamic and innovative when the very thing they are describing is no more than a fancy trigger to the same stimuli.

    they are grindy.

    running the same boss that has been programmed to do exactly the same thing every time until you have all the gear you want is grinding. if you enjoy it good for you but it is still a mundane predictable repetitive task.

    doing a battlegorund/warftont until you have a enough pvp points to get gear that allows you to actually do something which is not dieing repeatedly in the battleground is a grind. 

     

    I'm not contesting that there are repetative elements to the game, rather the choice of words.  Sorry to sound like an old fart on the porch but if you are calling these activities a grind then you have no idea what grind means.

    Well... What seems like a grind is also highly subjective to the individual. Technically as Bishbosh has pointed out a grind is any mundane repetitive task. MMOs are filled with these. If you enjoy a certain aspect it may not seem like a grind to you but it still is. What may be enjoyable to you may be highly monotonous to someone else. MMOs are getting better at hiding the grind aspects but that doesn't make them any less there. As long as there is character progression in MMOs there will always be some kind of grind to achieve it. You really can't have one without the other.

     

    Bren

    while(horse==dead)
    {
    beat();
    }

  • DamonDamon Naples, FLPosts: 165Member

    I think "casual", in your context, is in regard to how little time a player can commit to any single gaming session.  It's not about the total time needed to reach the goal.  However, the total time to reach goals in the games you listed is very minimal compared to some other games.  If you think those games are too grindy, then you may want to try vending machines.  Insert money.  Get reward.

    image
  • bishboshbishbosh SydneyPosts: 388Member

    Originally posted by Brenelael

    Originally posted by Quesa


    Originally posted by bishbosh


    Originally posted by Quesa


    Originally posted by bishbosh

    all the so called "casual games"  (wow, rift, swtor) are actually extremely grindy. why are these games refered to as being casual when it takes many many hours to accomplish things like grinding for pvp ranks etc i consider my self a casual player and these games turn me off because i dont have the time to grind pvp rank just so the game is fair for me.

    i think mindless and time consuming would be a better description rather than casual. anyone can get anything in these games as long as they bash their head against a wall for long enough. these games reward time spent rather than skill and desiscion making.

     

    I find it dissapointing that you would use the word grind so losely.  WoW, RIFT and SWTOR have so little grind that's disturbing to see the term used in the same sentance as these games.  If you are going to use that term so losely, you might as well admit that everything in your life is a grind, even typing your post was a grind.

    It's the same sort of thing when people use catch words and phrases such as dynamic and innovative when the very thing they are describing is no more than a fancy trigger to the same stimuli.

    they are grindy.

    running the same boss that has been programmed to do exactly the same thing every time until you have all the gear you want is grinding. if you enjoy it good for you but it is still a mundane predictable repetitive task.

    doing a battlegorund/warftont until you have a enough pvp points to get gear that allows you to actually do something which is not dieing repeatedly in the battleground is a grind. 

     

    I'm not contesting that there are repetative elements to the game, rather the choice of words.  Sorry to sound like an old fart on the porch but if you are calling these activities a grind then you have no idea what grind means.

    Well... What seems like a grind is also highly subjective to the individual. Technically as Bishbosh has pointed out a grind is any mundane repetitive task. MMOs are filled with these. If you enjoy a certain aspect it may not seem like a grind to you but it still is. What may be enjoyable to you may be highly monotonous to someone else. MMOs are getting better at hiding the grind aspects but that doesn't make them any less there. As long as there is character progression in MMOs there will always be some kind of grind to achieve it. You really can't have one without the other.

     

    Bren

    single player rpgs have character progression without being grindy. take skyrim for example. you do not have to repeat the same dungeon over and over to progress in the game. you do no have to actively seek out materials or flowers for crafting and alchemy, you just sort of acquire them very naturely in a non grindy fashion. 

    the single player rpg experience is difficult to emulate in a mmorpg however developers have other tools at hand to make games less grindy. im talking about players, lots of them. rather than instancing everything and isolating players, developers should exploit the relative unpredicability, scope and uniqueness of player-player interactions whether it be trade, pvp, co-operation, compeition to create an experience that is less grindy.

    a player is like a mob with a unique 1 billion line  c++ script that governs its behaviour. far more complex and interesting than anything a  developer can create. 

  • PheerMeehPheerMeeh Lowell, MAPosts: 41Member

    I think devs should just make a big sandbox, give us many tools, and then drop us into the sandbox and let us make our own content. We'll grind if we want to, we'll kill this dude if we want to, we'll do whatever if we want to. Give everyone sticks, lets see what they do with it. Lets put a marketplace right in the middle of this world, lets see what happens. Lets give them an incentive to have them start fighting each other. Devs should just give players tools, then let the players do what they want. Of course there should be some restrictions here and there, but you know what I mean... I hope.

  • BrenelaelBrenelael Warren, MEPosts: 3,996Member

    Originally posted by bishbosh

    Originally posted by Brenelael


    Originally posted by Quesa


    Originally posted by bishbosh


    Originally posted by Quesa


    Originally posted by bishbosh

    all the so called "casual games"  (wow, rift, swtor) are actually extremely grindy. why are these games refered to as being casual when it takes many many hours to accomplish things like grinding for pvp ranks etc i consider my self a casual player and these games turn me off because i dont have the time to grind pvp rank just so the game is fair for me.

    i think mindless and time consuming would be a better description rather than casual. anyone can get anything in these games as long as they bash their head against a wall for long enough. these games reward time spent rather than skill and desiscion making.

     

    I find it dissapointing that you would use the word grind so losely.  WoW, RIFT and SWTOR have so little grind that's disturbing to see the term used in the same sentance as these games.  If you are going to use that term so losely, you might as well admit that everything in your life is a grind, even typing your post was a grind.

    It's the same sort of thing when people use catch words and phrases such as dynamic and innovative when the very thing they are describing is no more than a fancy trigger to the same stimuli.

    they are grindy.

    running the same boss that has been programmed to do exactly the same thing every time until you have all the gear you want is grinding. if you enjoy it good for you but it is still a mundane predictable repetitive task.

    doing a battlegorund/warftont until you have a enough pvp points to get gear that allows you to actually do something which is not dieing repeatedly in the battleground is a grind. 

     

    I'm not contesting that there are repetative elements to the game, rather the choice of words.  Sorry to sound like an old fart on the porch but if you are calling these activities a grind then you have no idea what grind means.

    Well... What seems like a grind is also highly subjective to the individual. Technically as Bishbosh has pointed out a grind is any mundane repetitive task. MMOs are filled with these. If you enjoy a certain aspect it may not seem like a grind to you but it still is. What may be enjoyable to you may be highly monotonous to someone else. MMOs are getting better at hiding the grind aspects but that doesn't make them any less there. As long as there is character progression in MMOs there will always be some kind of grind to achieve it. You really can't have one without the other.

     

    Bren

    single player rpgs have character progression without being grindy. take skyrim for example. you do not have to repeat the same dungeon over and over to progress in the game. you do no have to actively seek out materials or flowers for crafting and alchemy, you just sort of acquire them very naturely in a non grindy fashion. 

    the single player rpg experience is difficult to emulate in a mmorpg however developers have other tools at hand to make games less grindy. im talking about players, lots of them. rather than instancing everything and isolating players, developers should exploit the relative unpredicability, scope and uniqueness of player-player interactions whether it be trade, pvp, co-operation, compeition to create an experience that is less grindy.

    a player is like a mob with a unique 1 billion line  c++ script that governs its behaviour. far more complex and interesting than anything a  developer can create. 

    How many times did you swing your sword, shoot your bow or cast your spells to get your next level? I do see your point however as the ES games are some of the best around at hiding the grind behind the 'fun'. A lot of single player games are this way. In the first Diablo game levels just sort of happened as another good example. There was a grind but the fun factor hid it well. You were still performing mundane repeditive tasks but in a fun way. Some MMOs are getting to this point but they aren't quite there yet.

     

    Edit: Also the part I highlighted is one way that some of the most grindy games of the past didn't seem so grindy at times. Sure you were killing the same group of mobs over and over again 10,000 times but because you were usually doing it with an interesting group of people it was a lot of fun and the grind aspect seemed to disappear at least for a little while. It's interesting that to move forward in the genre we need to take a step back first. I agree 100%.

     

    Bren

    while(horse==dead)
    {
    beat();
    }

  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member

    Because the casual people don't grind pvp rank.  They just pvp for the pvp.  Just saying.

Sign In or Register to comment.