I hope it is a hit, and I hope it changes sub models overall. Paying a monthly sub is just... outdated. I don't mind paying for the license itself, but a sub fee on top of that is becoming more difficult to justify. Bandwidth is cheap and plentiful, and will only become even more so as infrastructure improves worldwide. Development of new content is also far easier than the game's initial creation, and can easily be financed through expansion packs.
Sub fees need to disappear. B2P and F2P are the future of our hobby, and I welcome it. If GW2 is successful, hopefully more companies will go the aforementioned routes.
The problem is not so much the subscription fee itself... it's the value of the product. If you're paying a sub for a game that puts out very little content to justify the cost then it's a problem, but when it's a game that pushes out content for it's subscribers that is proportionate to the cost (AKA Rift) then there's obviously no problem because you're getting your money's worth.
With F2P games like GW2 you either get a P2Win system or long waits between content updates. If being able to play a game for free and only paying for content that comes out ~5 months later suits you then more power to you, but I very much prefer to have content quicker.
The problem isn't the business model... it's the business using it and how they choose to treat their customers.
I'm confused by this type of analysis. It's a B2P game not F2P. They have done this type of system once before with GW1. GW1 put out alot of content regularly that put to shame the sub MMOs I've played. I think it's because they are motivated to release content, they get paid for a new box. In a sub model, they have your money so what is the motivation to release new content? Maybe Rift is the exception (@15mo they are putting out a full GW2 every 4 months) but I've not seen a sub give the value for the money.
I can say what will happen, if they hold to what they did with GW1 it wont be P2Win. I think they would piss alot of customers off if it gets to that.
If you feel you get more content quicker, so that you get your moneys worth with a sub more power to you.
Whether GW succeeds or fails won't really change anything, GW1 was successful in its time and it didnt change anything, It is after all a B2P game, though GW2 combines a lot of features that you'd expect from a F2P game. If GW2 succeeded as a P2P game that would be different, as it would show a change in trends. The only game currently 'changing' anything is probably SW;TOR, and thats a game thats not in a good place imo, and while the jury might still be out on that one, it will hopefully change things for future games, and we won't get more of the themepark on rails type of gameplay. As it is.. GW2 will change nothing, why would it - it has no economical influence.
You're wrong. GW2 may change things, and it may not. GW1 didn't change anything, because it was pretty lame.
WoW, on the other hand, changed how companies make MMOs. Every MMO has tried to copy WoW almost to a T. Talents, battlegrounds, quest running, dailies, daily dungeons, meaningless level ground, and with very little variation.
If GW2 is a huge success companies will try to copy the formula, if it does indeed differ from WoW - which, honestly, is the only way a game will ever top WoW. If GW2 is another WOW clone, then, no, it won't change anything.
Not sure what you mean that is has no economical influence. I don't think you know what that statement means, because it could have a huge influence on the market. And it may not.
economical influence, ie.. how much profit it can generate, if its just down to box sales, which GW2 is, and isnt, then influence is limited to initial purchase, i can easily see people buying gw2 and still being subbed to other games, which means it has no influence on game subscriptions etc, choosing one over the other isnt going to happen, at least from a financial viewpoint. Personally i dont think things will change until games evolve again, WoW cornered the market so to speak with their evolution of MMO's, nothing i've seen so far though indicates that GW2 is the next 'evolution' of MMO's so, again, i don't see GW2 changing anything. On the other hand, its more likely to succeed than SW;TOR, all things considered
I hope it is a hit, and I hope it changes sub models overall. Paying a monthly sub is just... outdated. I don't mind paying for the license itself, but a sub fee on top of that is becoming more difficult to justify. Bandwidth is cheap and plentiful, and will only become even more so as infrastructure improves worldwide. Development of new content is also far easier than the game's initial creation, and can easily be financed through expansion packs.
Sub fees need to disappear. B2P and F2P are the future of our hobby, and I welcome it. If GW2 is successful, hopefully more companies will go the aforementioned routes.
The problem is not so much the subscription fee itself... it's the value of the product. If you're paying a sub for a game that puts out very little content to justify the cost then it's a problem, but when it's a game that pushes out content for it's subscribers that is proportionate to the cost (AKA Rift) then there's obviously no problem because you're getting your money's worth.
With F2P games like GW2 you either get a P2Win system or long waits between content updates. If being able to play a game for free and only paying for content that comes out ~5 months later suits you then more power to you, but I very much prefer to have content quicker.
The problem isn't the business model... it's the business using it and how they choose to treat their customers.
I'm confused by this type of analysis. It's a B2P game not F2P. They have done this type of system once before with GW1. GW1 put out alot of content regularly that put to shame the sub MMOs I've played. I think it's because they are motivated to release content, they get paid for a new box. In a sub model, they have your money so what is the motivation to release new content? Maybe Rift is the exception (@15mo they are putting out a full GW2 every 4 months) but I've not seen a sub give the value for the money.
I can say what will happen, if they hold to what they did with GW1 it wont be P2Win. I think they would piss alot of customers off if it gets to that.
If you feel you get more content quicker, so that you get your moneys worth with a sub more power to you.
I agree with most you said, GW2 is Buy2Play (B2P), and in the past with GW1 it has worked pretty well and ther ehave been many Content expansions at appropriate times.
That being said however there are many SUB games that offer expansions Free. EVE is one and has done this since its launch, Lineage II is another, WWIIOnline yet another and I am sure there are others too. Not every company out there is Greedy to the point of Selling New Expansions on top of charging a Sub.
I can understand thata Sub based model does not appeal to the younger demographic of the playerbase. And that is in my opinion where the bulk of it sits at this point hence F2P and even B2P have a better chance to have more players.
Yet there are some pitfalls, P2W models repulse players of all ages...
And there is still a possibility that GW2 may opt for something like that...butthey would as you say shoot themselves on the foot if they do it. I am hoping that in their wisdom as demonstrated by their approach to the Themepark model containing innovative ways to eliminate the associated "boring" elements of it, that they would also not fall in to the trap of P2W model.
We shall see soon enough.
In the end for me it comes out the same. I stay away from P2W games, and the F2P games that do not employ P2W tactics, I am willing to consume microtransactions for around the same value it would cost me for a Sub.
But F2P has the advantage where as an MMO can have many more players playing it and thus offer the intended experience of an MMO compared to a Sub game that excludes all of the players who could not afford the Sub.
So slowly F2P (made right) and B2P models are taking over for sure the Traditional SUB based game model.
And I agree this will end up being the future, at this point however Subs are not yet out of the table, because most F2P games are not doing it right.
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Nothing more than what is allredy happening,GW2 succsess will not change anything,games keep changing all the time and will do so forever,othervise we dont need new games.
Whether GW succeeds or fails won't really change anything, GW1 was successful in its time and it didnt change anything, It is after all a B2P game, though GW2 combines a lot of features that you'd expect from a F2P game. If GW2 succeeded as a P2P game that would be different, as it would show a change in trends. The only game currently 'changing' anything is probably SW;TOR, and thats a game thats not in a good place imo, and while the jury might still be out on that one, it will hopefully change things for future games, and we won't get more of the themepark on rails type of gameplay. As it is.. GW2 will change nothing, why would it - it has no economical influence.
You're wrong. GW2 may change things, and it may not. GW1 didn't change anything, because it was pretty lame.
WoW, on the other hand, changed how companies make MMOs. Every MMO has tried to copy WoW almost to a T. Talents, battlegrounds, quest running, dailies, daily dungeons, meaningless level ground, and with very little variation.
If GW2 is a huge success companies will try to copy the formula, if it does indeed differ from WoW - which, honestly, is the only way a game will ever top WoW. If GW2 is another WOW clone, then, no, it won't change anything.
Not sure what you mean that is has no economical influence. I don't think you know what that statement means, because it could have a huge influence on the market. And it may not.
economical influence, ie.. how much profit it can generate, if its just down to box sales, which GW2 is, and isnt, then influence is limited to initial purchase, i can easily see people buying gw2 and still being subbed to other games, which means it has no influence on game subscriptions etc, choosing one over the other isnt going to happen, at least from a financial viewpoint. Personally i dont think things will change until games evolve again, WoW cornered the market so to speak with their evolution of MMO's, nothing i've seen so far though indicates that GW2 is the next 'evolution' of MMO's so, again, i don't see GW2 changing anything. On the other hand, its more likely to succeed than SW;TOR, all things considered
It can and will still have an influence on subs and saying "no" is ignorant. If im playing GW2 non stop like a crack head why would i CONTINUE to give another company money when i am not playing their product or not having fun? Will everyone choose one or the other, no but to say it won't have an effect on other subs period is ignorant ESPECIALLY if its really the "messiah" of all new MMO's. Maybe its that thinking is why so many people are running out of money these days. If i like GW2 and truly like it i will drop my sub to which ever game at the time atleast in the beginng because i know thats where my gametime loyalty will lie and i have a job and family so i dont have 40hrs a week for gaming so there is no point in me, and i msure many others are in the same boat, giving some company 15 dollars for a game we don't like.
Now GW2 won't have as great as an effect on subs as most P2P MMO's then your logic would be correct but again if your not rich, if mommy & daddy dont still pay for your games, if your time is precious, and ofcourse if your friends/guild loyalty is in GW2 and it turns out to be as amazing as everyone HOPES then yes there still will be a significant sub loss in other games if not only to say HEY this is how you make a game now. Thats alot of if's i know but not imposibble. Now if its like GW1, a good game, but still mediocore and prob would be alot wore as a p2p game then no, you probably won't see any significant sub loss.
Thats my "common" sense because i don't like to waste my money nor pay a sub for something i don't use but then again who knows everyone seems to have different priorities.
Here are the important points you need to observe:
1.) The B2P model naturally generates MUCH LESS revenue than the P2P model for developers, publishers, etc.
2.) Guild Wars 2, in order to attract the big boys, (meaning, in order to prove to the large publishers, like EA, that their business model is better, therefore leading to "cloning"), has to not only generate a very large amount of revenue, but it also has to significantly impact large P2P games' subscriptions, like SWTOR, WoW, and Rift.
If (lets suppose) Guild Wars 2 gets 5 million players, but P2P games still maintain their massive revenue, then nothing will change with respect to the large publishers and their favored business model for their games. Guild Wars 2 needs to not only attract a lot of players, but it also has to take away a lot of players from other P2P games.
In other words, GW2 needs to endanger P2P games, financially, in order to be cloned (business model-wise).
I hope it is a hit, and I hope it changes sub models overall. Paying a monthly sub is just... outdated. I don't mind paying for the license itself, but a sub fee on top of that is becoming more difficult to justify. Bandwidth is cheap and plentiful, and will only become even more so as infrastructure improves worldwide. Development of new content is also far easier than the game's initial creation, and can easily be financed through expansion packs.
Sub fees need to disappear. B2P and F2P are the future of our hobby, and I welcome it. If GW2 is successful, hopefully more companies will go the aforementioned routes.
The problem is not so much the subscription fee itself... it's the value of the product. If you're paying a sub for a game that puts out very little content to justify the cost then it's a problem, but when it's a game that pushes out content for it's subscribers that is proportionate to the cost (AKA Rift) then there's obviously no problem because you're getting your money's worth.
With F2P games like GW2 you either get a P2Win system or long waits between content updates. If being able to play a game for free and only paying for content that comes out ~5 months later suits you then more power to you, but I very much prefer to have content quicker.
The problem isn't the business model... it's the business using it and how they choose to treat their customers.
I'm confused by this type of analysis. It's a B2P game not F2P. They have done this type of system once before with GW1. GW1 put out alot of content regularly that put to shame the sub MMOs I've played. I think it's because they are motivated to release content, they get paid for a new box. In a sub model, they have your money so what is the motivation to release new content? Maybe Rift is the exception (@15mo they are putting out a full GW2 every 4 months) but I've not seen a sub give the value for the money.
I can say what will happen, if they hold to what they did with GW1 it wont be P2Win. I think they would piss alot of customers off if it gets to that.
If you feel you get more content quicker, so that you get your moneys worth with a sub more power to you.
What is there to be confused about? And I honestly do not understand the need to have to clarify whether a game is B2P vs F2P like there is some huge difference between the two. With GW you're not buying to play the game, you're buying the game... the game itself is free to play. GW got content in the form of Expansions which you paid for, not in standard updates unless you want to count the small amount of content it got a few months after launch... it was stuff that should have been in at release to begin with. Just look at the history of GW and you'll see how long it took to receive content (expansions). Updates such as fixes, nerfs, and buffs do not count as content.
I'm not bashing GW in any way, people enjoyed the game and some didn't. The business model worked for those people and you I'm not trying to argue that you didn't get your money's worth cause I'm sure you did. But with a sub model you can expect to see quality updates and content much sooner and more often... at least that's the way it should be. Companies like to take advantage of their users and some of the more honest developers don't. I for one am very pleased with Trion (Rift) as a company and will gladly pay for their services, but don't expect to see me give a company like Blizzard a cent of my money.
I hope it is a hit, and I hope it changes sub models overall. Paying a monthly sub is just... outdated. I don't mind paying for the license itself, but a sub fee on top of that is becoming more difficult to justify. Bandwidth is cheap and plentiful, and will only become even more so as infrastructure improves worldwide. Development of new content is also far easier than the game's initial creation, and can easily be financed through expansion packs.
Sub fees need to disappear. B2P and F2P are the future of our hobby, and I welcome it. If GW2 is successful, hopefully more companies will go the aforementioned routes.
The problem is not so much the subscription fee itself... it's the value of the product. If you're paying a sub for a game that puts out very little content to justify the cost then it's a problem, but when it's a game that pushes out content for it's subscribers that is proportionate to the cost (AKA Rift) then there's obviously no problem because you're getting your money's worth.
With F2P games like GW2 you either get a P2Win system or long waits between content updates. If being able to play a game for free and only paying for content that comes out ~5 months later suits you then more power to you, but I very much prefer to have content quicker.
The problem isn't the business model... it's the business using it and how they choose to treat their customers.
I'm confused by this type of analysis. It's a B2P game not F2P. They have done this type of system once before with GW1. GW1 put out alot of content regularly that put to shame the sub MMOs I've played. I think it's because they are motivated to release content, they get paid for a new box. In a sub model, they have your money so what is the motivation to release new content? Maybe Rift is the exception (@15mo they are putting out a full GW2 every 4 months) but I've not seen a sub give the value for the money.
I can say what will happen, if they hold to what they did with GW1 it wont be P2Win. I think they would piss alot of customers off if it gets to that.
If you feel you get more content quicker, so that you get your moneys worth with a sub more power to you.
What is there to be confused about? And I honestly do not understand the need to have to clarify whether a game is B2P vs F2P like there is some huge difference between the two. With GW you're not buying to play the game, you're buying the game... the game itself is free to play. GW got content in the form of Expansions which you paid for, not in standard updates unless you want to count the small amount of content it got a few months after launch... it was stuff that should have been in at release to begin with. Just look at the history of GW and you'll see how long it took to receive content (expansions). Updates such as fixes, nerfs, and buffs do not count as content.
I'm not bashing GW in any way, people enjoyed the game and some didn't. The business model worked for those people and you I'm not trying to argue that you didn't get your money's worth cause I'm sure you did. But with a sub model you can expect to see quality updates and content much sooner and more often... at least that's the way it should be. Companies like to take advantage of their users and some of the more honest developers don't. I for one am very pleased with Trion (Rift) as a company and will gladly pay for their services, but don't expect to see me give a company like Blizzard a cent of my money.
The game it's self is not free to play...
Free to play means: you don't give a penny and you can download the client, install it, make an account and start playing...
Buy to play means: you pay for the box which gives you the product code which you then use to create your account, download your client, install it and then play it without a monthly fee...
Learn the difference, it's important!
GW didn't get content only trough expansions, they were putting out new dungeons, items, quests regularly trough patches for free... Updates and bug fixes is not classified as content, we're not retarded. So it's not correct what you said for history of GW1.
The fact that majority of content was in a form of expansion is true (WOW does the same thing, and even charges you a monthly fee with minimum content in the mean time) but we were given new content regularly and it wasn't "small amount". Even now we're getting new content every month or so without a fee...
So as I said, "the most successfull mmorpg today" (aka wow) doesn't give you quality updates and content much sooner and more often... They give you alot of content with an expansion, and between 2 of the expansions you get like 1 or 2 dungeons to refresh the content... So as you said it, they do not deserve a penny.. But then again, even AION gave new expansions for free to existing subscribers, and I think EVE is on that list as well...
If you say Rift is doing it good then I trust you, and I think EVE has always been good to their customers... But there's a lot of companies which look only for profit and how to screw their players, which really pisses me off.
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life." -------------------------------
Here are the important points you need to observe:
1.) The B2P model naturally generates MUCH LESS revenue than the P2P model for developers, publishers, etc.
2.) Guild Wars 2, in order to attract the big boys, (meaning, in order to prove to the large publishers, like EA, that their business model is better, therefore leading to "cloning"), has to not only generate a very large amount of revenue, but it also has to significantly impact large P2P games' subscriptions, like SWTOR, WoW, and Rift.
If (lets suppose) Guild Wars 2 gets 5 million players, but P2P games still maintain their massive revenue, then nothing will change with respect to the large publishers and their favored business model for their games. Guild Wars 2 needs to not only attract a lot of players, but it also has to take away a lot of players from other P2P games.
In other words, GW2 needs to endanger P2P games, financially, in order to be cloned (business model-wise).
See this i semi-agree with this what everyone isn't realising is if GW2 is suscessful hugely with a huge amount of active long term players even if they don't see a lost in subs it does not mean they won't clone it. Infact everyone thinking GW2 will change all P2P games into B2P is kinda making themselves blind. LEts be honest lets use EA, if GW2 is suscefull with well your 5 million subs but SWTOR subs stayed the same they may very well clone GW2 style just as other big companies but make it P2P because people will still pay more just to play something new even if its a new skin with a few new mechanics. Thats what i see happening if anything i don't see a company like EA going B2P unless it becomes like pay 10 dollars for a 30 pass on a certain event in the game because honestly Anet might not go P2Win or pay 2 enjoy w/e term you want but other companies definetly will because they know eventually gamers will want A new game and will probably pay monthly for it just because they burned out on the other (GW2).
Ofcourse thats what i think i just don't see major developers going full B2P model like GW1 and thats saying that GW2 will even stick to it as well as GW1 did (as in P2W items and such). Because honestly i think its been proven with many games you can charge more for the same, even lesser quality products or slightly better (rare) but gamers usually pay just to have something new especially MMO players. Ofcourse not all companies are like this all model have their perks not everything needs to be one or the other it depends on the game and developer tbh wich will work best.
Again GW2 might suck so much balls and no one will play it lol who really knows not even the developers don't know (if they did then only good games would ever be released).
and those clones will charge for every single thing under the sun.
either grind for 20 hours for X or spend $3.95 for X and get it now.
same shit different format.
Look at LoL, many companies are already looking at how to exploit that market. The same goes for Diablo 3. The same goes for anything successful.
Make something successful, and people will take that idea and put their own twist on it.
Hardly, it takes years to make a MMO. The first real Wow clone was LOTRO and it released almost 3 years after Wow (they had it in work earlier but probably revamped it once wow got big).
So if GW2 becomes that big what will happen is that Wow and other games will steal some features, I can see Wow making a few zones with DEs and add some battlegrounds that are closer to the mists but smaller with fewer players.
Then 2015 or so th first clone would show up...
Singleplayer games is a lot faster to make so in those cases clones can show up pretty soon but mmOs are a slow process and a good MMO takes about 5 years to make. Bad clones can be made in 3 though.
So what if guildwars 2 is a big hit and it comes to be very succsefull game?
with that fact that all the current mmo that are pay to play SWTOR, rift and TERA coming soon ect and that guildwars 2 1 time purchase and the cash shop
will this force these companys to change? whats do you guys think will happen will it change the MMO's? give me your opninion
Do not worry. If it is even remotely as was Gw1, there is no danger for any one.
And I'm playing Swtor since release, then will Rift, back Wow, back Swtor, .... and have not even minimal interest to change top 3 games in P2P model with some GW2, not even if they pay me monthly fee.
So what if guildwars 2 is a big hit and it comes to be very succsefull game?
with that fact that all the current mmo that are pay to play SWTOR, rift and TERA coming soon ect and that guildwars 2 1 time purchase and the cash shop
will this force these companys to change? whats do you guys think will happen will it change the MMO's? give me your opninion
Do not worry. If it is even remotely as was Gw1, there is no danger for any one.
And I'm playing Swtor since release, then will Rift, back Wow, back Swtor, .... and have not even minimal interest to change top 3 games in P2P model with some GW2, not even if they pay me monthly fee.
So what if guildwars 2 is a big hit and it comes to be very succsefull game?
with that fact that all the current mmo that are pay to play SWTOR, rift and TERA coming soon ect and that guildwars 2 1 time purchase and the cash shop
will this force these companys to change? whats do you guys think will happen will it change the MMO's? give me your opninion
I think the subscription model is dying already, and GW2 will just boost things up. I'm currently suscribed to Rift, but only till GW2 release.
I hope it is a hit, and I hope it changes sub models overall. Paying a monthly sub is just... outdated. I don't mind paying for the license itself, but a sub fee on top of that is becoming more difficult to justify. Bandwidth is cheap and plentiful, and will only become even more so as infrastructure improves worldwide. Development of new content is also far easier than the game's initial creation, and can easily be financed through expansion packs.
Sub fees need to disappear. B2P and F2P are the future of our hobby, and I welcome it. If GW2 is successful, hopefully more companies will go the aforementioned routes.
The problem is not so much the subscription fee itself... it's the value of the product. If you're paying a sub for a game that puts out very little content to justify the cost then it's a problem, but when it's a game that pushes out content for it's subscribers that is proportionate to the cost (AKA Rift) then there's obviously no problem because you're getting your money's worth.
With F2P games like GW2 you either get a P2Win system or long waits between content updates. If being able to play a game for free and only paying for content that comes out ~5 months later suits you then more power to you, but I very much prefer to have content quicker.
The problem isn't the business model... it's the business using it and how they choose to treat their customers.
I'm confused by this type of analysis. It's a B2P game not F2P. They have done this type of system once before with GW1. GW1 put out alot of content regularly that put to shame the sub MMOs I've played. I think it's because they are motivated to release content, they get paid for a new box. In a sub model, they have your money so what is the motivation to release new content? Maybe Rift is the exception (@15mo they are putting out a full GW2 every 4 months) but I've not seen a sub give the value for the money.
I can say what will happen, if they hold to what they did with GW1 it wont be P2Win. I think they would piss alot of customers off if it gets to that.
If you feel you get more content quicker, so that you get your moneys worth with a sub more power to you.
What is there to be confused about? And I honestly do not understand the need to have to clarify whether a game is B2P vs F2P like there is some huge difference between the two. With GW you're not buying to play the game, you're buying the game... the game itself is free to play. GW got content in the form of Expansions which you paid for, not in standard updates unless you want to count the small amount of content it got a few months after launch... it was stuff that should have been in at release to begin with. Just look at the history of GW and you'll see how long it took to receive content (expansions). Updates such as fixes, nerfs, and buffs do not count as content.
I'm not bashing GW in any way, people enjoyed the game and some didn't. The business model worked for those people and you I'm not trying to argue that you didn't get your money's worth cause I'm sure you did. But with a sub model you can expect to see quality updates and content much sooner and more often... at least that's the way it should be. Companies like to take advantage of their users and some of the more honest developers don't. I for one am very pleased with Trion (Rift) as a company and will gladly pay for their services, but don't expect to see me give a company like Blizzard a cent of my money.
The game it's self is not free to play...
Free to play means: you don't give a penny and you can download the client, install it, make an account and start playing...
Buy to play means: you pay for the box which gives you the product code which you then use to create your account, download your client, install it and then play it without a monthly fee...
Learn the difference, it's important!
GW didn't get content only trough expansions, they were putting out new dungeons, items, quests regularly trough patches for free... Updates and bug fixes is not classified as content, we're not retarded. So it's not correct what you said for history of GW1.
The fact that majority of content was in a form of expansion is true (WOW does the same thing, and even charges you a monthly fee with minimum content in the mean time) but we were given new content regularly and it wasn't "small amount". Even now we're getting new content every month or so without a fee...
So as I said, "the most successfull mmorpg today" (aka wow) doesn't give you quality updates and content much sooner and more often... They give you alot of content with an expansion, and between 2 of the expansions you get like 1 or 2 dungeons to refresh the content... So as you said it, they do not deserve a penny.. But then again, even AION gave new expansions for free to existing subscribers, and I think EVE is on that list as well...
If you say Rift is doing it good then I trust you, and I think EVE has always been good to their customers... But there's a lot of companies which look only for profit and how to screw their players, which really pisses me off.
Yeah basically what he said. What I disagree with is the notion that only a P2P model has the highest potential to give you a quality product and is only model that generates the revenue to do it. Sorry many P2P games fall short. There really aren't any B2P MMOs to point to. However, the high cost of running the game which was much of what the original monthly fee covered no longer exists. Historically, there is a fee model and now a days it makes good money. I can see why the developers don't want to give it up. I have trouble seeing why the consumers so badly want to pay it.
I see alot of this has turned into a discussion mostly about B2P/F2P/P2P and i just wanted to share this.
I have no problem paying to play a good MMO, infact i payed to play Asherons Call for many many years. But every single month they do patchs that add content and fix minor bugs it really felt like my 12 bucks was going to somthing. patch day was great log in and find the new stuff, search the lands looking for new portals to dungeons or new npcs.
in todays games i feel VERY ripped off paying a monthly sub. in todays games i feel like my 15 bucks a month is going towards finishing a game i already purchased. there are tons and tons of things wrong with these games at release that i feel like i just wasted 60 bucks on half a game and after i spend another 60 in monthly payments 4 months down the road the game MIGHT be closer to complete.
plus most of the time 4 or 5 months down the road they are adding very little content to the game, most of the time they are re-balanceing classes or fixeing major bugs that were addressed in betas but not fixed before release.
Im looking forward to seeing how GW2 plays out with it being Buy to Play, and if it works out and other companys copy it then cool. because as of now most companys cant make games worthy of a monthly sub.
Other MMORPG's should be fine assuming they are putting out a product their subscribers enjoy no matter what the payment model is for that game. But that is a big assumption on my part lol. I'm not sure how many people are really happy with their current MMO to be honest... but I know for certain there are lots of unhappy people on these forums and elsewhere!
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So what if guildwars 2 is a big hit and it comes to be very succsefull game?
Do not worry. If it is even remotely as was Gw1, there is no danger for any one.
And I'm playing Swtor since release, then will Rift, back Wow, back Swtor, .... and have not even minimal interest to change top 3 games in P2P model with some GW2, not even if they pay me monthly fee.
lies
So ... you know better then I know what I will do in future and what will play or not? You are obviously tipical gw fan, blind to anything any1 might say. Btw, have tried gw, purchased even expansion. Game could, imo of course, never ever survive in p2p model. Never ever. And f2p marked is mainly there because of cheap people that do not care at all about quality. If it is cheap it is good.
Well....enjoy gw and gw2 if you can, I'm unable to.
So what if guildwars 2 is a big hit and it comes to be very succsefull game?
Do not worry. If it is even remotely as was Gw1, there is no danger for any one.
And I'm playing Swtor since release, then will Rift, back Wow, back Swtor, .... and have not even minimal interest to change top 3 games in P2P model with some GW2, not even if they pay me monthly fee.
lies
So ... you know better then I know what I will do in future and what will play or not? You are obviously tipical gw fan, blind to anything any1 might say. Btw, have tried gw, purchased even expansion. Game could, imo of course, never ever survive in p2p model. Never ever. And f2p marked is mainly there because of cheap people that do not care at all about quality. If it is cheap it is good.
Well....enjoy gw and gw2 if you can, I'm unable to.
dont worry, one less wow noob in GW2 is a good thing.
Same thing that happend when AOC/WAR/RIFT/SWTOR promised the same question would be asked, only to end up being just the same.
GW2 will have a huge launch, like the above mentioned games. I think the pvp fanatics will stay longer than usual, im not convinced that the game has enough role dependant pve mechanics to appeal to the serious pve players.
Not saying it will be a flop, its just...how many games do we have to go through where this is the frame of mind only to find out its quite the opposite in the end?
A lot of GW2's features sound goundbreaking....just like war and rift has a lot of reworded systems that ended up growing stale quick, and after the launch wave of players had run through the content and found the path or least resistance, the rest was ignored. It left the game as a regular themepark with some side additions that were...just ok.
I do like the GW style "choose 8 skills" over the set in stone classes with their bank of standard issue skills that you and the guy next to you has as well. I can see that being something used more, TSW is already doing something like that applied to a very diffrent skill system.
Anyway...far too early to tell...you just cant judge a games success untill a full month has passed playing it...far too many times a mmorpg has cloaked the same old ina new shiny and thin mask...only do people find out a month or so in if the game is really all that diffrent.
I cant see what makes this games endgame much diffrent in the end...still isntanced pvp and pve raids right?
I cant see what makes this games endgame much diffrent in the end...still isntanced pvp and pve raids right?
Wrong.
One thing with GW2 is that they leave the entire game available as endgame... you don't erect any walls behind you to the content you levelled past. The side-kicking system will level you down to lower level content keeping it a challenge. One thing that does is leave all of the eight initial dungeons viable for you at level 80, which is eight story paths and 24 (wtf hard) explorable paths. There is the instanced 5v5 PvP, the competitive side, but then there's also the massive World vs World PvP, pitting three servers against each other in a massive set of maps known as the Mists. Worth looking up if you're not familiar with it... you can go there right off the bat and level all the way to 80 without ever leaving if you wish. Plus, there will be all the dynamic events to do, including the meta-events with huge world bosses that anyone can join in fighting (The Shatterer and Tequatl the Sunless being a couple mid-level zone examples) that will bring back memories of massive raids with added levels of chaos for flavoring.
This doesn't include all the mini-games, the exploring, the crafting, etc. Basically, endgame is the entire game, not some cut off instanced stuff while the rest of the game is obsolete.
I cant see what makes this games endgame much diffrent in the end...still isntanced pvp and pve raids right?
Wrong.
One thing with GW2 is that they leave the entire game available as endgame... you don't erect any walls behind you to the content you levelled past. The side-kicking system will level you down to lower level content keeping it a challenge. One thing that does is leave all of the eight initial dungeons viable for you at level 80, which is eight story paths and 24 (wtf hard) explorable paths. There is the instanced 5v5 PvP, the competitive side, but then there's also the massive World vs World PvP, pitting three servers against each other in a massive set of maps known as the Mists. Worth looking up if you're not familiar with it... you can go there right off the bat and level all the way to 80 without ever leaving if you wish. Plus, there will be all the dynamic events to do, including the meta-events with huge world bosses that anyone can join in fighting (The Shatterer and Tequatl the Sunless being a couple mid-level zone examples) that will bring back memories of massive raids with added levels of chaos for flavoring.
This doesn't include all the mini-games, the exploring, the crafting, etc. Basically, endgame is the entire game, not some cut off instanced stuff while the rest of the game is obsolete.
In other words PvP Warzones and PvE raids is endgame. Just like other MMOs. I have a feeling people hoping this will be something completely different from the usual MMO will be a little letdown. I'm looking forward to it but I'll wait a few months after launch to buy it when it's cheaper and has a lot more reviews, after the shiny has worn off.
Edit: The original Guild Wars was excellent. And I'm guessing GW2 will have the same feel but with more MMO sprinkled in. Better crafting, PvE, largescale PvP. Everything so far sounds great. But the ingame community of the original game felt more like a first person shooter lobby than an MMO. Meaning that it was more impersonal. No one really made an effort to get to know other players. And you still have that vibe in some subscription MMOs but not as much. I think if you pay a subscription for a game you're going to invest a certain amount of time/effort and you're going to be a little more socially invested then in a free to play game. Not always, but usually. It might depend upon the social tools that the developers give the players within and outside of the game. Guess we'll see.
I cant see what makes this games endgame much diffrent in the end...still isntanced pvp and pve raids right?
Wrong.
Indeed so very wrong
First there will be no endgame PvE raids...
Seccondly the WvWvW PvP part is like a sepperate world for PvP, which is so huge that it will feel like open world PvP more then an instanced game... because the WvWvW batles only reset once every 2 weeks.
If GW2 becomes as succesfull as WoW, other MMo's still have enough room to cexcist with it... Personally i see GW2 fit to have that role of that home you keep returning to, but allows you to visit other games from time to time, as it will allways be there to return back to.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Comments
I'm confused by this type of analysis. It's a B2P game not F2P. They have done this type of system once before with GW1. GW1 put out alot of content regularly that put to shame the sub MMOs I've played. I think it's because they are motivated to release content, they get paid for a new box. In a sub model, they have your money so what is the motivation to release new content? Maybe Rift is the exception (@15mo they are putting out a full GW2 every 4 months) but I've not seen a sub give the value for the money.
I can say what will happen, if they hold to what they did with GW1 it wont be P2Win. I think they would piss alot of customers off if it gets to that.
If you feel you get more content quicker, so that you get your moneys worth with a sub more power to you.
economical influence, ie.. how much profit it can generate, if its just down to box sales, which GW2 is, and isnt, then influence is limited to initial purchase, i can easily see people buying gw2 and still being subbed to other games, which means it has no influence on game subscriptions etc, choosing one over the other isnt going to happen, at least from a financial viewpoint. Personally i dont think things will change until games evolve again, WoW cornered the market so to speak with their evolution of MMO's, nothing i've seen so far though indicates that GW2 is the next 'evolution' of MMO's so, again, i don't see GW2 changing anything. On the other hand, its more likely to succeed than SW;TOR, all things considered
I agree with most you said, GW2 is Buy2Play (B2P), and in the past with GW1 it has worked pretty well and ther ehave been many Content expansions at appropriate times.
That being said however there are many SUB games that offer expansions Free. EVE is one and has done this since its launch, Lineage II is another, WWIIOnline yet another and I am sure there are others too. Not every company out there is Greedy to the point of Selling New Expansions on top of charging a Sub.
I can understand thata Sub based model does not appeal to the younger demographic of the playerbase. And that is in my opinion where the bulk of it sits at this point hence F2P and even B2P have a better chance to have more players.
Yet there are some pitfalls, P2W models repulse players of all ages...
And there is still a possibility that GW2 may opt for something like that...butthey would as you say shoot themselves on the foot if they do it. I am hoping that in their wisdom as demonstrated by their approach to the Themepark model containing innovative ways to eliminate the associated "boring" elements of it, that they would also not fall in to the trap of P2W model.
We shall see soon enough.
In the end for me it comes out the same. I stay away from P2W games, and the F2P games that do not employ P2W tactics, I am willing to consume microtransactions for around the same value it would cost me for a Sub.
But F2P has the advantage where as an MMO can have many more players playing it and thus offer the intended experience of an MMO compared to a Sub game that excludes all of the players who could not afford the Sub.
So slowly F2P (made right) and B2P models are taking over for sure the Traditional SUB based game model.
And I agree this will end up being the future, at this point however Subs are not yet out of the table, because most F2P games are not doing it right.
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Nothing more than what is allredy happening,GW2 succsess will not change anything,games keep changing all the time and will do so forever,othervise we dont need new games.
It can and will still have an influence on subs and saying "no" is ignorant. If im playing GW2 non stop like a crack head why would i CONTINUE to give another company money when i am not playing their product or not having fun? Will everyone choose one or the other, no but to say it won't have an effect on other subs period is ignorant ESPECIALLY if its really the "messiah" of all new MMO's. Maybe its that thinking is why so many people are running out of money these days. If i like GW2 and truly like it i will drop my sub to which ever game at the time atleast in the beginng because i know thats where my gametime loyalty will lie and i have a job and family so i dont have 40hrs a week for gaming so there is no point in me, and i msure many others are in the same boat, giving some company 15 dollars for a game we don't like.
Now GW2 won't have as great as an effect on subs as most P2P MMO's then your logic would be correct but again if your not rich, if mommy & daddy dont still pay for your games, if your time is precious, and ofcourse if your friends/guild loyalty is in GW2 and it turns out to be as amazing as everyone HOPES then yes there still will be a significant sub loss in other games if not only to say HEY this is how you make a game now. Thats alot of if's i know but not imposibble. Now if its like GW1, a good game, but still mediocore and prob would be alot wore as a p2p game then no, you probably won't see any significant sub loss.
Thats my "common" sense because i don't like to waste my money nor pay a sub for something i don't use but then again who knows everyone seems to have different priorities.
Here are the important points you need to observe:
1.) The B2P model naturally generates MUCH LESS revenue than the P2P model for developers, publishers, etc.
2.) Guild Wars 2, in order to attract the big boys, (meaning, in order to prove to the large publishers, like EA, that their business model is better, therefore leading to "cloning"), has to not only generate a very large amount of revenue, but it also has to significantly impact large P2P games' subscriptions, like SWTOR, WoW, and Rift.
If (lets suppose) Guild Wars 2 gets 5 million players, but P2P games still maintain their massive revenue, then nothing will change with respect to the large publishers and their favored business model for their games. Guild Wars 2 needs to not only attract a lot of players, but it also has to take away a lot of players from other P2P games.
In other words, GW2 needs to endanger P2P games, financially, in order to be cloned (business model-wise).
What is there to be confused about? And I honestly do not understand the need to have to clarify whether a game is B2P vs F2P like there is some huge difference between the two. With GW you're not buying to play the game, you're buying the game... the game itself is free to play. GW got content in the form of Expansions which you paid for, not in standard updates unless you want to count the small amount of content it got a few months after launch... it was stuff that should have been in at release to begin with. Just look at the history of GW and you'll see how long it took to receive content (expansions). Updates such as fixes, nerfs, and buffs do not count as content.
I'm not bashing GW in any way, people enjoyed the game and some didn't. The business model worked for those people and you I'm not trying to argue that you didn't get your money's worth cause I'm sure you did. But with a sub model you can expect to see quality updates and content much sooner and more often... at least that's the way it should be. Companies like to take advantage of their users and some of the more honest developers don't. I for one am very pleased with Trion (Rift) as a company and will gladly pay for their services, but don't expect to see me give a company like Blizzard a cent of my money.
The game it's self is not free to play...
Free to play means: you don't give a penny and you can download the client, install it, make an account and start playing...
Buy to play means: you pay for the box which gives you the product code which you then use to create your account, download your client, install it and then play it without a monthly fee...
Learn the difference, it's important!
GW didn't get content only trough expansions, they were putting out new dungeons, items, quests regularly trough patches for free... Updates and bug fixes is not classified as content, we're not retarded. So it's not correct what you said for history of GW1.
The fact that majority of content was in a form of expansion is true (WOW does the same thing, and even charges you a monthly fee with minimum content in the mean time) but we were given new content regularly and it wasn't "small amount". Even now we're getting new content every month or so without a fee...
So as I said, "the most successfull mmorpg today" (aka wow) doesn't give you quality updates and content much sooner and more often... They give you alot of content with an expansion, and between 2 of the expansions you get like 1 or 2 dungeons to refresh the content... So as you said it, they do not deserve a penny.. But then again, even AION gave new expansions for free to existing subscribers, and I think EVE is on that list as well...
If you say Rift is doing it good then I trust you, and I think EVE has always been good to their customers... But there's a lot of companies which look only for profit and how to screw their players, which really pisses me off.
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See this i semi-agree with this what everyone isn't realising is if GW2 is suscessful hugely with a huge amount of active long term players even if they don't see a lost in subs it does not mean they won't clone it. Infact everyone thinking GW2 will change all P2P games into B2P is kinda making themselves blind. LEts be honest lets use EA, if GW2 is suscefull with well your 5 million subs but SWTOR subs stayed the same they may very well clone GW2 style just as other big companies but make it P2P because people will still pay more just to play something new even if its a new skin with a few new mechanics. Thats what i see happening if anything i don't see a company like EA going B2P unless it becomes like pay 10 dollars for a 30 pass on a certain event in the game because honestly Anet might not go P2Win or pay 2 enjoy w/e term you want but other companies definetly will because they know eventually gamers will want A new game and will probably pay monthly for it just because they burned out on the other (GW2).
Ofcourse thats what i think i just don't see major developers going full B2P model like GW1 and thats saying that GW2 will even stick to it as well as GW1 did (as in P2W items and such). Because honestly i think its been proven with many games you can charge more for the same, even lesser quality products or slightly better (rare) but gamers usually pay just to have something new especially MMO players. Ofcourse not all companies are like this all model have their perks not everything needs to be one or the other it depends on the game and developer tbh wich will work best.
Again GW2 might suck so much balls and no one will play it lol who really knows not even the developers don't know (if they did then only good games would ever be released).
Say GW sells 10 million copies.
suddenly next year we have 8000 clones.
and those clones will charge for every single thing under the sun.
either grind for 20 hours for X or spend $3.95 for X and get it now.
same shit different format.
Look at LoL, many companies are already looking at how to exploit that market. The same goes for Diablo 3. The same goes for anything successful.
Make something successful, and people will take that idea and put their own twist on it.
well it looks like you guys got some stronge opnions about b2p/f2p/p2p models its good to see what you people have to say
Hardly, it takes years to make a MMO. The first real Wow clone was LOTRO and it released almost 3 years after Wow (they had it in work earlier but probably revamped it once wow got big).
So if GW2 becomes that big what will happen is that Wow and other games will steal some features, I can see Wow making a few zones with DEs and add some battlegrounds that are closer to the mists but smaller with fewer players.
Then 2015 or so th first clone would show up...
Singleplayer games is a lot faster to make so in those cases clones can show up pretty soon but mmOs are a slow process and a good MMO takes about 5 years to make. Bad clones can be made in 3 though.
Do not worry. If it is even remotely as was Gw1, there is no danger for any one.
And I'm playing Swtor since release, then will Rift, back Wow, back Swtor, .... and have not even minimal interest to change top 3 games in P2P model with some GW2, not even if they pay me monthly fee.
lies
I think the subscription model is dying already, and GW2 will just boost things up. I'm currently suscribed to Rift, but only till GW2 release.
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Yeah basically what he said. What I disagree with is the notion that only a P2P model has the highest potential to give you a quality product and is only model that generates the revenue to do it. Sorry many P2P games fall short. There really aren't any B2P MMOs to point to. However, the high cost of running the game which was much of what the original monthly fee covered no longer exists. Historically, there is a fee model and now a days it makes good money. I can see why the developers don't want to give it up. I have trouble seeing why the consumers so badly want to pay it.
I see alot of this has turned into a discussion mostly about B2P/F2P/P2P and i just wanted to share this.
I have no problem paying to play a good MMO, infact i payed to play Asherons Call for many many years. But every single month they do patchs that add content and fix minor bugs it really felt like my 12 bucks was going to somthing. patch day was great log in and find the new stuff, search the lands looking for new portals to dungeons or new npcs.
in todays games i feel VERY ripped off paying a monthly sub. in todays games i feel like my 15 bucks a month is going towards finishing a game i already purchased. there are tons and tons of things wrong with these games at release that i feel like i just wasted 60 bucks on half a game and after i spend another 60 in monthly payments 4 months down the road the game MIGHT be closer to complete.
plus most of the time 4 or 5 months down the road they are adding very little content to the game, most of the time they are re-balanceing classes or fixeing major bugs that were addressed in betas but not fixed before release.
Im looking forward to seeing how GW2 plays out with it being Buy to Play, and if it works out and other companys copy it then cool. because as of now most companys cant make games worthy of a monthly sub.
Other MMORPG's should be fine assuming they are putting out a product their subscribers enjoy no matter what the payment model is for that game. But that is a big assumption on my part lol. I'm not sure how many people are really happy with their current MMO to be honest... but I know for certain there are lots of unhappy people on these forums and elsewhere!
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So ... you know better then I know what I will do in future and what will play or not? You are obviously tipical gw fan, blind to anything any1 might say. Btw, have tried gw, purchased even expansion. Game could, imo of course, never ever survive in p2p model. Never ever. And f2p marked is mainly there because of cheap people that do not care at all about quality. If it is cheap it is good.
Well....enjoy gw and gw2 if you can, I'm unable to.
dont worry, one less wow noob in GW2 is a good thing.
Same thing that happend when AOC/WAR/RIFT/SWTOR promised the same question would be asked, only to end up being just the same.
GW2 will have a huge launch, like the above mentioned games. I think the pvp fanatics will stay longer than usual, im not convinced that the game has enough role dependant pve mechanics to appeal to the serious pve players.
Not saying it will be a flop, its just...how many games do we have to go through where this is the frame of mind only to find out its quite the opposite in the end?
A lot of GW2's features sound goundbreaking....just like war and rift has a lot of reworded systems that ended up growing stale quick, and after the launch wave of players had run through the content and found the path or least resistance, the rest was ignored. It left the game as a regular themepark with some side additions that were...just ok.
I do like the GW style "choose 8 skills" over the set in stone classes with their bank of standard issue skills that you and the guy next to you has as well. I can see that being something used more, TSW is already doing something like that applied to a very diffrent skill system.
Anyway...far too early to tell...you just cant judge a games success untill a full month has passed playing it...far too many times a mmorpg has cloaked the same old ina new shiny and thin mask...only do people find out a month or so in if the game is really all that diffrent.
I cant see what makes this games endgame much diffrent in the end...still isntanced pvp and pve raids right?
Wrong.
One thing with GW2 is that they leave the entire game available as endgame... you don't erect any walls behind you to the content you levelled past. The side-kicking system will level you down to lower level content keeping it a challenge. One thing that does is leave all of the eight initial dungeons viable for you at level 80, which is eight story paths and 24 (wtf hard) explorable paths. There is the instanced 5v5 PvP, the competitive side, but then there's also the massive World vs World PvP, pitting three servers against each other in a massive set of maps known as the Mists. Worth looking up if you're not familiar with it... you can go there right off the bat and level all the way to 80 without ever leaving if you wish. Plus, there will be all the dynamic events to do, including the meta-events with huge world bosses that anyone can join in fighting (The Shatterer and Tequatl the Sunless being a couple mid-level zone examples) that will bring back memories of massive raids with added levels of chaos for flavoring.
This doesn't include all the mini-games, the exploring, the crafting, etc. Basically, endgame is the entire game, not some cut off instanced stuff while the rest of the game is obsolete.
Oderint, dum metuant.
In other words PvP Warzones and PvE raids is endgame. Just like other MMOs. I have a feeling people hoping this will be something completely different from the usual MMO will be a little letdown. I'm looking forward to it but I'll wait a few months after launch to buy it when it's cheaper and has a lot more reviews, after the shiny has worn off.
Edit: The original Guild Wars was excellent. And I'm guessing GW2 will have the same feel but with more MMO sprinkled in. Better crafting, PvE, largescale PvP. Everything so far sounds great. But the ingame community of the original game felt more like a first person shooter lobby than an MMO. Meaning that it was more impersonal. No one really made an effort to get to know other players. And you still have that vibe in some subscription MMOs but not as much. I think if you pay a subscription for a game you're going to invest a certain amount of time/effort and you're going to be a little more socially invested then in a free to play game. Not always, but usually. It might depend upon the social tools that the developers give the players within and outside of the game. Guess we'll see.
Indeed so very wrong
First there will be no endgame PvE raids...
Seccondly the WvWvW PvP part is like a sepperate world for PvP, which is so huge that it will feel like open world PvP more then an instanced game... because the WvWvW batles only reset once every 2 weeks.
If GW2 becomes as succesfull as WoW, other MMo's still have enough room to cexcist with it... Personally i see GW2 fit to have that role of that home you keep returning to, but allows you to visit other games from time to time, as it will allways be there to return back to.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Possible, but unlikely, what happens if under the odds stuff happens is beyond human comprehension
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