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Does Star Wars: The Old Republic Deserve the Wrath of the Haters?

13

Comments

  • AutorockAutorock Langley, BCPosts: 48Member

    Hey guys guess what?

    I still like this game...and so does my girlfriend...and so do 4 of my other friends...

    Just figured i'd speak out as the apparent minority, that never voices our facetious opinions on here due to the fact that we're all just too busy playing the old republic.

  • //\//\oo//\//\oo MalboroughPosts: 2,767Member

    Originally posted by ButeoRegalis

     









    No, investing (for a return on your money) has nothing to do with superior products. Superior products can lead to a good return on your money, but that's neither necessary nor sufficient. Otherwise Walmart would be out of business and we'd all have roofs covered in solar cells.

     

    Whether investors will benefit will depend on subscriber numbers and we'll know in a few months whether the development cost has been recouped. Everyone shouting right now about TOR going free-to-play next week or closing down by the end of the month is just shouting for attention. Those numbers will also show whether consumers are happy with the product. Everyone still subbing to TOR after the included-in-purchase time period is happy enough with the game to pay $15 for another month.

     

    You're missing the point. The investors DIDN'T make a good return on this product.

     

    Walmart is one of the most efficient businesses on the planet; MOST companies cannot run on the margins they do, because they precisely sell things that consumers consider at least as valuable as their corresponding prices.

     

    From an economic perspective, it was a waste, because BOTH the consumer AND the company incurred losses.

     

    From a financial perspective, it was a waste, because the company incurred losses.

     

    There is no way to look at this game and say it was worth anybody's time or effort. They could have bought Greek bonds and been far better off (some people actually did this).

     

     

    This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.

  • FrostWyrmFrostWyrm Tempe, AZPosts: 1,036Member

    Originally posted by cinos

    Originally posted by Artymus77


    Originally posted by FrostWyrm


    Originally posted by Dahkot72

    They put in a broken world pvp system , broke it worse with each patch , and halfway have admitted they don't know what they are doing and are abondoning Illum and world pvp for the forseeable future.

    If they will refund 2/3 of my 3 month sub pass I paid for I'll stop "hating". Till then I enjoy using my sub money to enrage the fanbois on the official forums. 

    [mod edit]

    now this crap i dont understand, why pay for a sub that your not gonna play but j[mod edit] to ones that actually enjoy playing it, im sorry but that is just stupid.  But its your money you do wthat ever you want.

    Isn't it clear that Dahkot72 purchased a 3 month sub outright because he expected to be playing the game that long? He can't get his money back and doesn't want to play the game anymore, hence why he hates.

    Seemed pretty clear to me and yet you two both seem to misunderstand. :p

    Sooo, it still boils down to poor money management. Especially when SWTOR, like most P2P MMOs with a box price, comes with a 30 day free trial with the box purchase.

    I bought the box, played my free trial, discovered the game was not my thing, and didn't pay a penny more. No one to blame but himself for that one.

  • OmaliOmali MMO Business Correspondent Orchard Park, NYPosts: 1,114Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by FrostWyrm

    Originally posted by cinos


    Originally posted by Artymus77


    Originally posted by FrostWyrm


    Originally posted by Dahkot72

    They put in a broken world pvp system , broke it worse with each patch , and halfway have admitted they don't know what they are doing and are abondoning Illum and world pvp for the forseeable future.

    If they will refund 2/3 of my 3 month sub pass I paid for I'll stop "hating". Till then I enjoy using my sub money to enrage the fanbois on the official forums. 

    [mod edit]

    now this crap i dont understand, why pay for a sub that your not gonna play but [mod edit] to ones that actually enjoy playing it, im sorry but that is just stupid.  But its your money you do wthat ever you want.

    Isn't it clear that Dahkot72 purchased a 3 month sub outright because he expected to be playing the game that long? He can't get his money back and doesn't want to play the game anymore, hence why he hates.

    Seemed pretty clear to me and yet you two both seem to misunderstand. :p

    Sooo, it still boils down to poor money management. Especially when SWTOR, like most P2P MMOs with a box price, comes with a 30 day free trial with the box purchase.

    I bought the box, played my free trial, discovered the game was not my thing, and didn't pay a penny more. No one to blame but himself for that one.

    I see this far too much. When Final Fantasy XIV released, I distinctly remember someone on the forums screaming that they hated the beta and thought the game was crap, but turned around and bought the collector's edition and around $100 worth of Crysta and were complaining that the game wasn't good.

    Check out my monthly column on MMORPG.com.

    image

  • cinoscinos LondonPosts: 963Member

    Originally posted by FrostWyrm

    Originally posted by cinos


    Originally posted by Artymus77


    Originally posted by FrostWyrm


    Originally posted by Dahkot72

    They put in a broken world pvp system , broke it worse with each patch , and halfway have admitted they don't know what they are doing and are abondoning Illum and world pvp for the forseeable future.

    If they will refund 2/3 of my 3 month sub pass I paid for I'll stop "hating". Till then I enjoy using my sub money to enrage the fanbois on the official forums. 

    [mod edit]

    now this crap i dont understand, why pay for a sub that your not gonna play but[mod edit] to ones that actually enjoy playing it, im sorry but that is just stupid.  But its your money you do wthat ever you want.

    Isn't it clear that Dahkot72 purchased a 3 month sub outright because he expected to be playing the game that long? He can't get his money back and doesn't want to play the game anymore, hence why he hates.

    Seemed pretty clear to me and yet you two both seem to misunderstand. :p

    Sooo, it still boils down to poor money management. Especially when SWTOR, like most P2P MMOs with a box price, comes with a 30 day free trial with the box purchase.

    I bought the box, played my free trial, discovered the game was not my thing, and didn't pay a penny more. No one to blame but himself for that one.

    Not disagreeing. Was just pointing out how completely you two had misunderstood his post. :p

    /cinos away

  • TuchakaTuchaka san diego, CAPosts: 468Member

    i don't know does any game desrve a bunch of finatical spoiled angry children ranting about it......seems odd behavior if you were not a gamer ....no... ?

     

    but then again wow had to deal with the same thing for how long so ya ......as much as i would love to blame the phenomena on entitled spoiled gamers, frankly some of the blame goes to gamging companies that treat us like adorable morons/  hamsters on a exercise wheel ....there is plenty of blame to go around as to why there is such a disconnect between the two sides.

  • Nomis278Nomis278 LondonPosts: 126Member

    I don't remember hearing a group of people whine as much as the ones who hate this game. Most don't seem to be able to differentiate between opinion and fact either.

    Most of us have been disappointed by games at one time or another. It happens. Get over it!

  • FrostWyrmFrostWyrm Tempe, AZPosts: 1,036Member

    Originally posted by cinos

    Originally posted by FrostWyrm


    Originally posted by cinos


    Originally posted by Artymus77


    Originally posted by FrostWyrm


    Originally posted by Dahkot72

    They put in a broken world pvp system , broke it worse with each patch , and halfway have admitted they don't know what they are doing and are abondoning Illum and world pvp for the forseeable future.

    If they will refund 2/3 of my 3 month sub pass I paid for I'll stop "hating". Till then I enjoy using my sub money to enrage the fanbois on the official forums. 

    [mod edit]

    now this crap i dont understand, why pay for a sub that your not gonna play but [mod edit] to ones that actually enjoy playing it, im sorry but that is just stupid.  But its your money you do wthat ever you want.

    Isn't it clear that Dahkot72 purchased a 3 month sub outright because he expected to be playing the game that long? He can't get his money back and doesn't want to play the game anymore, hence why he hates.

    Seemed pretty clear to me and yet you two both seem to misunderstand. :p

    Sooo, it still boils down to poor money management. Especially when SWTOR, like most P2P MMOs with a box price, comes with a 30 day free trial with the box purchase.

    I bought the box, played my free trial, discovered the game was not my thing, and didn't pay a penny more. No one to blame but himself for that one.

    Not disagreeing. Was just pointing out how completely you two had misunderstood his post. :p

    /cinos away

    Fair enough.

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member

    Here's the truth of all this...

    1 angry voice is a nitpicker

    10 angry voices are critics

    10,000 angry voices are a bunch of spoiled haters

    ...

    SWTOR has 10,000 angry voices.

    There are just so many people that are critical of this game that it gives the impression that people are just "hating" on it.  I know that you can bring up examples of posters here that post multiple negative things about SWTOR, but let's be honest...the criticism of SWTOR is far bigger than just this forum.

    The only reason that everyone thinks SWTOR is getting so much hate is because there are so many dissatisfied people.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • DaRoamerDaRoamer Toronto, ONPosts: 249Member

    Originally posted by Lowcaian

    Originally posted by Zekiah


    Originally posted by FrostWyrm


    Originally posted by Zekiah

    I'm most amused by the small but vocal crowd that bases most of its dislike for SWTOR on the fact that space combat plays more like StarFox 64 than X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter.

     

    ROFL. Star Wars on rails and he's amused by the criticism? Just ROFL.

    I dont get it. Where's the funny part?

    Oh nothing, nothing at all. Star Wars space should be on rails, open space would be far too complicated and just ruin the game.

    Not to mention that JTL was far superior and even introduced atmospheric flight and ability to attack ground targets in the end. No matter how many subscriptions they get, TOR will forver in my eyes be the game that destroyed old school Star Wars and I am not talking about just SWG.

    That's true, It's not like JTL came out almost a year after SWG launched, right?  Could you image if SWG had launched without ANY kind of space combat?  That would have been awful.

  • TruthXHurtsTruthXHurts El Do, KSPosts: 1,555Member

    Originally posted by DaRoamer

    Originally posted by Lowcaian


    Originally posted by Zekiah


    Originally posted by FrostWyrm


    Originally posted by Zekiah

    I'm most amused by the small but vocal crowd that bases most of its dislike for SWTOR on the fact that space combat plays more like StarFox 64 than X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter.

     

    ROFL. Star Wars on rails and he's amused by the criticism? Just ROFL.

    I dont get it. Where's the funny part?

    Oh nothing, nothing at all. Star Wars space should be on rails, open space would be far too complicated and just ruin the game.

    Not to mention that JTL was far superior and even introduced atmospheric flight and ability to attack ground targets in the end. No matter how many subscriptions they get, TOR will forver in my eyes be the game that destroyed old school Star Wars and I am not talking about just SWG.

    That's true, It's not like JTL came out almost a year after SWG launched, right?  Could you image if SWG had launched without ANY kind of space combat?  That would have been awful.

    What if everyone in SWG had become Jedi after the first month? That's pretty much what happened with SWTOR. SWG endgame took years of hardcore dedication to unlock a Jedi. Then the easy mode era took over, and we find ourselves here.

    "I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"

  • Artymus77Artymus77 Highland, ILPosts: 140Member

    Originally posted by Dahkot72

    Originally posted by Artymus77


    Originally posted by FrostWyrm


    Originally posted by Dahkot72

    They put in a broken world pvp system , broke it worse with each patch , and halfway have admitted they don't know what they are doing and are abondoning Illum and world pvp for the forseeable future.

    If they will refund 2/3 of my 3 month sub pass I paid for I'll stop "hating". Till then I enjoy using my sub money to enrage the fanbois on the official forums. 

    [mod edit]

    now this crap i dont understand, why pay for a sub that your not gonna play but[mod edit]to ones that actually enjoy playing it, im sorry but that is just stupid.  But its your money you do wthat ever you want.

     

    [mod edit]

    ah yes my bad, im sorry.  apology said but still your money you do what you want dont matter to me.  its my money i love the game im still playing and i dont care what you do.  Still not the end of the world well not till mid dec (LOL) but truth behold they still not gonna refund your money back.  If they did they would have to do it for everyone else.  And i dont honetly see that happening.

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    When a major studio takes a fantastic IP, 200m dollars and 5 years to produce something so un-star wars-y, so badly implemented, so mediocre and quite frankly so unambitious then the answer to the question does it deserve the hate is YES.
  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member

    Originally posted by DaRoamer

    Originally posted by Lowcaian


    Originally posted by Zekiah


    Originally posted by FrostWyrm


    Originally posted by Zekiah

    I'm most amused by the small but vocal crowd that bases most of its dislike for SWTOR on the fact that space combat plays more like StarFox 64 than X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter.

     

    ROFL. Star Wars on rails and he's amused by the criticism? Just ROFL.

    I dont get it. Where's the funny part?

    Oh nothing, nothing at all. Star Wars space should be on rails, open space would be far too complicated and just ruin the game.

    Not to mention that JTL was far superior and even introduced atmospheric flight and ability to attack ground targets in the end. No matter how many subscriptions they get, TOR will forver in my eyes be the game that destroyed old school Star Wars and I am not talking about just SWG.

    That's true, It's not like JTL came out almost a year after SWG launched, right?  Could you image if SWG had launched without ANY kind of space combat?  That would have been awful.

    Yes it would have. When you do something, you do it properly. Not something halfassed.

  • BLeeDzACiDBLeeDzACiD Tacoma, WAPosts: 55Member

    Im having fun wish I pre ordered.

  • LowcaianLowcaian NsjoPosts: 265Member

    Originally posted by DaRoamer

    Originally posted by Lowcaian


    Originally posted by Zekiah


    Originally posted by FrostWyrm


    Originally posted by Zekiah

    I'm most amused by the small but vocal crowd that bases most of its dislike for SWTOR on the fact that space combat plays more like StarFox 64 than X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter.

     

    ROFL. Star Wars on rails and he's amused by the criticism? Just ROFL.

    I dont get it. Where's the funny part?

    Oh nothing, nothing at all. Star Wars space should be on rails, open space would be far too complicated and just ruin the game.

    Not to mention that JTL was far superior and even introduced atmospheric flight and ability to attack ground targets in the end. No matter how many subscriptions they get, TOR will forver in my eyes be the game that destroyed old school Star Wars and I am not talking about just SWG.

    That's true, It's not like JTL came out almost a year after SWG launched, right?  Could you image if SWG had launched without ANY kind of space combat?  That would have been awful.

    The point is, once we got it it was good. TORs space isn't even worthy of the name space and I see zero signs of it being revamped down the road.

    image
  • DreadbladeDreadblade Phila, PAPosts: 384Member

    Originally posted by Lowcaian

    Originally posted by DaRoamer


    Originally posted by Lowcaian


    Originally posted by Zekiah


    Originally posted by FrostWyrm


    Originally posted by Zekiah

    I'm most amused by the small but vocal crowd that bases most of its dislike for SWTOR on the fact that space combat plays more like StarFox 64 than X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter.

     

    ROFL. Star Wars on rails and he's amused by the criticism? Just ROFL.

    I dont get it. Where's the funny part?

    Oh nothing, nothing at all. Star Wars space should be on rails, open space would be far too complicated and just ruin the game.

    Not to mention that JTL was far superior and even introduced atmospheric flight and ability to attack ground targets in the end. No matter how many subscriptions they get, TOR will forver in my eyes be the game that destroyed old school Star Wars and I am not talking about just SWG.

    That's true, It's not like JTL came out almost a year after SWG launched, right?  Could you image if SWG had launched without ANY kind of space combat?  That would have been awful.

    The point is, once we got it it was good. TORs space isn't even worthy of the name space and I see zero signs of it being revamped down the road.

    Was that a space game I was playing I thought it was a bad joke by Bioware

    image

  • OpapanaxOpapanax Rochester, NYPosts: 973Member

    LoL I've been suspended from these forums twice for "hating" on this game. Although I understand [Mods] wanting to keep the forums as friendly and positive as possible I can't help but think they've been a little harder at work since the w-h (heavy on the H)-iplash that SWTOR has recieved.

    This game is honestly a joke based on the amount of development time, funding and marketing it has recieved. I'm sure at one point and more than likely very early on consumers expectations surpassed what was actually being put out by Bioware / EA. Now when I say this, it's not to completely say that conumers simply excepted TOO much from SWTOR. I'm more inclined to say that Bioware / EA has fallen that short on what they decided to release.

    Fuck all that bullshit of what they "promised" or what they did or didn't say about SWTOR. They had $300 Million, over a decades worth of "metric" data and bounds upon bounds of technological advancements since World of Warcraft (If that's what some people MUST compare this game to). Trion with Rift didn't stray very far from the model set by Blizzard, but they made a REAL attempt at developing on that model and seeking out it's own identity.

    As lovely and heartwarming as some of the cutscenes may be in Star Wars: The Old Republic, I can't say that they are features that would have me come back to SWTOR. I've been unsubbed more than a month and even had to call of customer service to get a refund on a month because they decided to still charge me even after I canceled my subscription with over 10 days left on that current cycle. It's cool though, I screamed on these lames and got my money back.

    NOTE: This is the first time I've ever had to seek out a refund from a game. I've spent plenty of throw away money on my games. PLEX in EVE, staying subscribed to a game for a month or two even though I'm not playing, but with SWTOR I absolutely could not and WOULD not let them get away with digging in my pockets again for the sub-satisfactory experience I had. I'm dead ass when I say this, I don't need to troll this game with false acusations or blow out of preportion point of views.

    To me this game has nothing to really show that would not warrant the flack it is recieving. The game has strong points, that is the story and voice overs and if you asked 100 people in a room you'd get 100 of the same answers. Perhaps that is the root of SWTOR's problem. They did one thing above avergae (Not mindblowing) and everything else is well... .sub-par..

    Like the Tiger Woods type of Sub-par; Like call it a day, hop in the Bentley and hit the highway for gtfo's..

    PM before you report at least or you could just block.

  • matraquematraque Montreal, QCPosts: 1,431Member

    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Here's the truth of all this...

    1 angry voice is a nitpicker

    10 angry voices are critics

    10,000 angry voices are a bunch of spoiled haters

    ...

    SWTOR has 10,000 angry voices.

    There are just so many people that are critical of this game that it gives the impression that people are just "hating" on it.  I know that you can bring up examples of posters here that post multiple negative things about SWTOR, but let's be honest...the criticism of SWTOR is far bigger than just this forum.

    The only reason that everyone thinks SWTOR is getting so much hate is because there are so many dissatisfied people.

    So that 0.5882352%

    Nice.

    eqnext.wikia.com

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member

    Originally posted by matraque

    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Here's the truth of all this...

    1 angry voice is a nitpicker

    10 angry voices are critics

    10,000 angry voices are a bunch of spoiled haters

    ...

    SWTOR has 10,000 angry voices.

    There are just so many people that are critical of this game that it gives the impression that people are just "hating" on it.  I know that you can bring up examples of posters here that post multiple negative things about SWTOR, but let's be honest...the criticism of SWTOR is far bigger than just this forum.

    The only reason that everyone thinks SWTOR is getting so much hate is because there are so many dissatisfied people.

    So that 0.5882352%

    Nice.

    It's just an expression to mean "a lot"...I obviously haven't tabulated the exact numbers of people complaining about SWTOR ;).

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • ktanner3ktanner3 lakeland, FLPosts: 4,074Member Common

    I agree with everything he said except for the part about not remembering a game getting this amount of negativity. I played SWG for two and a half years during all three of it's incarnations and there wasn't a day that went by where there wasn't people b*tching about something on the official forums. There was complaints about bugs, lag, broken professions, overpowered professions, nerfs,  jedi getting a free character slot, no content...etc.etc. I can only imagine what the whine fest was like on release with no mounts, no space, no jedi and the other horror stories I heard that happened at that launch.Negativity is par for the course in gaming. Now some of the complaints for TOR are valid such as the PVP, game not running smoothly, exessive sharding, etc.. but some people really do need to learn how to do proper research before buying. Coming into this game and expecting SWG just shows how ignorant you are as a consumer.

     

    Currently Playing: Star Wars The Old Republic

  • OpapanaxOpapanax Rochester, NYPosts: 973Member

    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Originally posted by matraque


    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Here's the truth of all this...

    1 angry voice is a nitpicker

    10 angry voices are critics

    10,000 angry voices are a bunch of spoiled haters

    ...

    SWTOR has 10,000 angry voices.

    There are just so many people that are critical of this game that it gives the impression that people are just "hating" on it.  I know that you can bring up examples of posters here that post multiple negative things about SWTOR, but let's be honest...the criticism of SWTOR is far bigger than just this forum.

    The only reason that everyone thinks SWTOR is getting so much hate is because there are so many dissatisfied people.

    So that 0.5882352%

    Nice.

    It's just an expression to mean "a lot"...I obviously haven't tabulated the exact numbers of people complaining about SWTOR ;).

    The real question to this thread title should be..

    Does Star Wars: The Old Republic Deserve the Faith of the Biodrones?

    PM before you report at least or you could just block.

  • LowcaianLowcaian NsjoPosts: 265Member

    Originally posted by ktanner3

    I agree with everything he said except for the part about not remembering a game getting this amount of negativity. I played SWG for two and a half years during all three of it's incarnations and there wasn't a day that went by where there wasn't people b*tching about something on the official forums. There was complaints about bugs, lag, broken professions, overpowered professions, nerfs,  jedi getting a free character slot, no content...etc.etc. I can only imagine what the whine fest was like on release with no mounts, no space, no jedi and the other horror stories I heard that happened at that launch.Negativity is par for the course in gaming. Now some of the complaints for TOR are valid such as the PVP, game not running smoothly, exessive sharding, etc.. but some people really do need to learn how to do proper research before buying. Coming into this game and expecting SWG just shows how ignorant you are as a consumer.

     

    I didn't expect SWG, I expected something better which it wasn't.

    image
  • ElikalElikal ValhallaPosts: 7,906Member Uncommon

    I have not seen many SWTOR-haters. What I see are people who are letdown and like me think SWTOR is a very mediocre game which falls way behind what it could and should have been as 2012-MMO with the Star Wars IP.

    I don't think SWTOR is a horrible game, but it is not a MMO which makes me stay more than 2-3 months and then game over for me, because I have seen 2-3 stories and that is as much as this game is interesting. They sure did some really nice things with SWTOR, some really bad things and a lot of things which are just bland and mediocre. For a game with so many years in development, so many people working on it and so much Dollars invested, with all we know about MMOs today, this sure is a very, very mediocre game and a huge letdown. That isn't hate. But it is another MMO, making quick bucks and fall into obscurity within the next 6-12 months. And the Star Wars IP surely would have deserved better, so as SW fan I am of course angry they did not better.

    There are so many things in other MMOs which worked great and were popular, but Bioware totally and entirely ignored EVERY SINGLE ONE of them. Why is beyond me. Like:

    - no lush, detailled, immersive worlds and instead making sterile theatre stages

    - no non-story/heroic activities to do besides the waste of "space on rails" which you do a few times and then have seen all

    - almost NO ambient sounds

    - horrible fashion sense, few gear looking cool so you "really want that too"

    - no non-combat hobbies, professions which were popular in other MMOs (music: LOTRO, entertainers: SWG, fishing, asf.)

    - horrible social hub

    - bland warzones and a simply unfinished barebone PVP system

    - so many "small issues", like why is you PVP group ALWAYS dissolved after EVERY warzone, but you individual pvp queue is continued so all members end up in different pvp warzones eventually? How can such a BASIC feature be so broken?

     

    I am sure I could count much more if I had the will. I don't have a vendetta against Bioware, I have a vendetta against their slowly changing paradigm what makes a good RPG. Since they are part of EA, their idea of RPGs, MMO or single player, is changing in ways I do not think I like. Maybe they even sell more that way, or they just sell because "it's Bioware", but they most certainly are losing their grip on what makes good, complex, memorable RPGs and MMORPGs. And I fight against this trend of simplification and streamlining in games, because for me their ruin a once beloved hobby into fast food trash mentality.

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • UtukuMoonUtukuMoon ParisPosts: 1,066Member

    They really bought it on themselves and imo they even lied about certain aspects of their game.

    I was a member of their forums from the very first day and one of the main question was: is the game open world and BioWare said it was,its not.

    Then you have their arrogance with comments like "every mmo up to this point has been a waste of time" lol wtf are they on?

    We who have been playing mmo long before bioware dreamed of making a mmo or attempted to make an mmo have wasted all our years playing them because bioware said so.

    They talked a good one but came up with a joke of a game,they can never be btaken seriously again.Right now they are not really feeling it but by the end of the year they will be trying to give the game away.

This discussion has been closed.