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The evils of a fair fight

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  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,666Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Vhaln

    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    Which do you think is the most likely scenario?

    A) Players see those mobs as a rewarding challenge

    B) Players complain the mobs are OP for their level and should be nerfed

    C) Players avoid those mobs altogether and fight the easier stuff

     

    I'd say B and C are good bets.

     

    Is that so bad?  I think it'd enhance the feel of a game, if there are some mobs that just need to be avoided.  Not everything should be xp fodder.  Maybe it'd be better if the world felt a little more dangerous, even if that means players are doing there best to avoid those dangerous parts, and even complaing about how much it sucks when they fail to do so, and get stomped.

    I think one of the core mistakes MMO devs make is misunderstanding different types of complaining people do.  A lot of people will complain if a game is difficult, yet will feel compelled to keep trying.  While OTOH, you can have a game that's easy, that no one complains about, but less and less people feel compelled to play at all.  I think sometimes complaining is actually a good sign.  Not just because it shows they care, but some types of frustration can even be part of what gets people to care.

     

    I don't find it bad at all. I think they not only add challenge but make for far more eventful gameplay. I remember very little of my mindless jaunt through WOW, but of the things that stuck with me outside of a handful of notablew quests were the mobs that took me by surprise

    - that one scorpid in Valley of Trials

    - a tiger/lion thing on an island off  from Senjin Village.

    - some black scorpid a while down the road from Razor Hill

    - when I headed to the undead area I met that fine chap Son of Arugal

    and so on, clear up to that ZOMGWTF TREX!!!

    They keep the game exciting. :)

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • Asuran24Asuran24 St. pual, MNPosts: 517Member

    In some ways you could saay that having mobs level up and progress with you adds to the immersion int he game in ways. Yet it is more in that like a story or adventure as you fallow it your going to relise that this creature i am fighting which seems so easy now, would actually have ment death most likely several levels easier to yoru characetr in your progression thru the game's story. The fact that you can see your progression thru fighting creature that would have killed you in earlier levels (even if it is you seeing you just whipped a level 19 elite or chap, that only 5 levels ago would have smashed you by sheer level differrnce.). Yet so many players keep to the safe routes of fighting green or yellow mobs, when i remember either jumping to the reds with a group or solo, even getting into elite farming (like in the blasted lands prior to BC coming out.). I would say that if you are always being faced with superior oppenents is a bad idea, but actually tossing into the mix several long areas of superior creatures to give that feeling of you annoying somethign or someone enouph they wanted you dead is not a bad idea. Like you go thru say three zones of fairly equal power mobs, only to be smacked by a zone or two of higher power or elite status mobs as you actions pissed off some agent or group that is working in those areas. Also to keep in mind is themeparks most of all now are about telling a story, and in most stories the main character is not always challenged in every part of the story or aventure, but only in vary spesific parts of the story.

     

    I would say that if you are always fighting creatures that are equal to you in level to you, and are not not able to fing more challenging creatures, thhen you are not looking vary well. Even in wow i could find fields of elites status mobs to fight, orange/red level mobs, and quests that were worth alot of experince for me, yet i had to skip ahead of several groups of quests to do this sometimes. To me hardships as well as challenges should not be common place in any game as once you sdo that, then you make that fact the norm, but if you sprinkle it in to where they appear at times like they do in the rela world it actually does give you a feeling of achievement. You trully do not need to have several times of getting trampled by any mobs to remind you that you are weaker than it, look at the fel reaver in hellfire peninsula of wow with only getting stamped on once most players never forgot, but even if you never seen him again that fact was in grained into you from it. I do like the idea of a deadly mob/creature that would wander the areas to freak out, and then also give the layers somethign to strive for, but even ust areas with elites or such would work as well.

     

    Saying that only if you can expeirnce losing to someone, or are fighting against uneven/unfair odds that you can not tell you are progressing is short sighted. Merely comparing yourself to what you were only afew levels prior after fighting a mob, can show you that you are much stronger or progressred in ways. I mean you fight a level 15 mob at level 15, but then look back at what how you were only afe levels prior based on skills or powers you have now, and you will see a increase in yoru progresion or power. The issue with continuely having fair fights is that it gets boring as you have no change in difffiulty as your power raises to meet the next opponent, yet if you add in level/diffucult mobs into the mix to break that cycle, then you would add in a new dynamic to the progression. Things like creatures that need specific tactics, powers, or such to defeat, while stll largely being the same general mob, as such you will have to actually use more of what you characetr has at their dispoil. Yet the fact of fighting equal level mobs constently making the game boring, is also true of fighting powerful mobs as well constently, sicne it makes it take the place of fighting those lower level mobs which over time you see as the samethign. Imagine really if you were fighting eqqual level mobs for months, and then changed to higher levels for years always fighting these harder creatures without change. You would equate these higher diffiulty mobs as fair as well as equal now as they are the norm of the game, not the rarity of challenge they shoudl be.

  • RequiamerRequiamer ???Posts: 2,034Member

    Lol, i though you would talk about fair fight in pvp that are an other matter really, but strangely share the same kind of splitting between old school mmo and the modern ones.

    But ye you are right in your OP post, this is one of the "rpg" strongest element that was sacrificed on the "they are only game, we are making game for fun..." altar. No adventure, no risk in mmorpg is retarded, for some strange reasons i still don't grasp why developers went this route, but they did. Its really time to turn the page.

    Ho in fact i know perfectly why they did it, its clear around 2k, mmo wasn't rpg anymore, but cash cow leaded by the grind psychological abuse on kids to have them pay their monthly fee. Once more so retarded.

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member

    Originally posted by Cuathon

    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    Originally posted by Creslin321

    This can be nice because you know you'll never be put in a fight you can't win, but it kind of kills any feeling of exploration, danger, and most importantly, PROGRESSION in the game. 

    Actually, it's done because it enhances the feeling of progression for most players. The majority of players are playing to progress their character. The majority of players aren't playing to challenge themselves - the game is an entertaining diversion. Imagine the con of just a fraction of the mobs in any mainstream MMO shifted down a color or two. What's really a red now shows as yellow. What's really white now shows as green.

    Which do you think is the most likely scenario?

    A) Players see those mobs as a rewarding challenge

    B) Players complain the mobs are OP for their level and should be nerfed

    C) Players avoid those mobs altogether and fight the easier stuff

     

    I'd say B and C are good bets.

     

    Now, before Mr Extreme OutofLeftField RedHerringStrawMan jumps in... I never said that no game should be more challenging or that no one wants a more challenging PvE experience. I'm addressing the specific point the OP made that MMORPGs should get back to adding that level of challenge or difficulty. In an MMO where the playerbase is there for challenging battle and not to simply progreess their character, that would work. Very few MMOs are actually like that and very few players are actually looking for that (raid/boss/elite content the exception) so getting back to showing players this form of gameplay isn't anything that most MMOs should really focus on as it conflicts with what their players are trying to achieve/accomplish.



    This is an interesting post. It goes quite contrary to the ideas expressed by 2 certain players that what players really seek is complex challenging gameplay. I'm sure you know the two people I mean, I do not get along with them well.

    I would say that the kind of thing Creslin is talking about is not what you are talking about. He doesn't argue for all the mobs in the game to be exactly equivalent to the player in power. In fact he was arguing the opposite. I also don't think that the rare super strong Sand Giant style monster is there for a challenge. You aren't expected to play and beat it at a low level. You are expected to get crushed in a few seconds. Thus when you are finally able to kill it you are like wow that is so cool. I've changed.

    Its like in elementary school you think being a highschooler is so cool. And then one day you ARE one and you feel so cool. Omg, I'm in highschool!!!

    That's what this is about.

    Yes, exactly.  If anything, this post is arguing that RPGs have never really been about challenge, they've always been about progression.  Almost every single RPG I remember playing can be brought down to a trivial difficulty simply by grinding (ie progressing).  And I'm saying that's not necessarily a bad thing...that's just how RPGs are, and they have been successful with that philosophy for quite some time.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,666Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Originally posted by Cuathon


    Originally posted by Loktofeit


    Originally posted by Creslin321



    This can be nice because you know you'll never be put in a fight you can't win, but it kind of kills any feeling of exploration, danger, and most importantly, PROGRESSION in the game. 

    Actually, it's done because it enhances the feeling of progression for most players. The majority of players are playing to progress their character. The majority of players aren't playing to challenge themselves - the game is an entertaining diversion. Imagine the con of just a fraction of the mobs in any mainstream MMO shifted down a color or two. What's really a red now shows as yellow. What's really white now shows as green.

    Which do you think is the most likely scenario?

    A) Players see those mobs as a rewarding challenge

    B) Players complain the mobs are OP for their level and should be nerfed

    C) Players avoid those mobs altogether and fight the easier stuff

     

    I'd say B and C are good bets.

     

    Now, before Mr Extreme OutofLeftField RedHerringStrawMan jumps in... I never said that no game should be more challenging or that no one wants a more challenging PvE experience. I'm addressing the specific point the OP made that MMORPGs should get back to adding that level of challenge or difficulty. In an MMO where the playerbase is there for challenging battle and not to simply progreess their character, that would work. Very few MMOs are actually like that and very few players are actually looking for that (raid/boss/elite content the exception) so getting back to showing players this form of gameplay isn't anything that most MMOs should really focus on as it conflicts with what their players are trying to achieve/accomplish.



    This is an interesting post. It goes quite contrary to the ideas expressed by 2 certain players that what players really seek is complex challenging gameplay. I'm sure you know the two people I mean, I do not get along with them well.

    I would say that the kind of thing Creslin is talking about is not what you are talking about. He doesn't argue for all the mobs in the game to be exactly equivalent to the player in power. In fact he was arguing the opposite. I also don't think that the rare super strong Sand Giant style monster is there for a challenge. You aren't expected to play and beat it at a low level. You are expected to get crushed in a few seconds. Thus when you are finally able to kill it you are like wow that is so cool. I've changed.

    Its like in elementary school you think being a highschooler is so cool. And then one day you ARE one and you feel so cool. Omg, I'm in highschool!!!

    That's what this is about.

    Yes, exactly.  If anything, this post is arguing that RPGs have never really been about challenge, they've always been about progression.  Almost every single RPG I remember playing can be brought down to a trivial difficulty simply by grinding (ie progressing).  And I'm saying that's not necessarily a bad thing...that's just how RPGs are, and they have been successful with that philosophy for quite some time.



    My post is about MMOs, not RPGs, directly addressing what you were presenting in your OP  - adding some more challenging mobs in an MMO. What's funny is I actually knew you'd take that bizarre turn down Confusion Lane which is why I made a point to clarify the post with that closing paragraph. image

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member

    Originally posted by Axehilt

    If progression mattered far more than tactical combat, the thousands of players raiding in WOW would be playing EVE PVE instead (where most missions basically play themselves as you slowly fall asleep.)

    The reality is that the demographic playing MMORPGs predominantly wants a game instead of a FarmVille-like relaxation activity.

     

    90s gamers wanted fairness too, because gamers have always wanted interesting decisions.  You don't achieve interesting decisions by letting things be unbalanced, such as in C&C:RA where all you did was mass tanks because the other strategies were too weak to work.   You achieved interesting decisions by having things be fair, like RA2 or Starcraft where many viable strategies exist (as a direct result of the games being well-balanced.)

    To put it simply:

    Fairness = balance = interesting decisions = what gamers want

    There's a market for players who just want a FarmVille-style relaxation activity (EVE PVE or EVE mining), but most players are clearly choosing the games where they can't succeed while falling asleep at the keyboard, where the game wants to play with them and not just use them.

    I'm going to challenge this post.

    First, Eve is a terrible comparison to WoW if you're trying to prove that players prefer fairness/balance in MMORPGs as opposed to progression.  Eve is a COMPLETELY different game from WoW.  If WoW's roots are from D&D, Eve's roots are from Trade Wars...completely different.  I don't play Eve simply because I don't like the kind of game it is...it has nothing to do with progression vs. fairness or anything like that.  I am 99% certain many other gamers feel the same.

    Second, I'm going to challenge your assertion that the "masses" enjoy raiding.  Raiding is an incredibly involved, very-demanding, and high-committment activity.  I'm sure there are many "hardcore" folks that love raiding, but it really doesn't appeal to the more casual gamer that is typically assumed to be in the majority.  Heck, I'm probably considered a hardcore gamer, and I've never been on a single raid in my life because they just seem way too involved.

    I don't have any statistics on how many people raid, but there's a lot of anecdotal accounts around that web that state a relatively smaller (like 10-25%) or WoW players actually raid.  Also...consider why players raid.  If the best gear couldn't be obtained by raiding, how many people would still do it?

    Players raid because they want to...drumroll please...progress!  They want to get better gear.  Raiding is often the means to an end, and that's it.

    There's nothing wrong with having skill and challenge be a component of an RPG, but it should, IMO, always take a backseat to the feeling of progression...except for in PvP where it should be balanced.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • LowFlyingHamLowFlyingHam Charlston, ALPosts: 98Member

    Agree but disagree at the same time.  I remember playing RF Online for like a half hour.  I got to the first town after doing the tutorial, and either I missed the quests or simply picked the wrong exit from town.  Got rofl-stomped by baddies way higher than me right next to the starting town... I kinda sat there for a few seconds, and immediately uninstalled.  That's just bad game design, I don't care how you justify it.

    I do have 'fond' memories of being genuinely scared of some mobs in Dark Souls.  While you're making your way to the Taurus Demon for example(the one you fight on top of a castle wall with a tower you can get up on... this is way early in the game), there's this big knight looking guy next to some narrow passageway going down some steps.  It's completely out of the way, you're not required to go down there at all.  I think he was guarding a chest or something, and he'd kill me every single time.  He may have actually been impossible to kill, I don't remember very well... but that's the kind of feeling that's missing from MMORPGs, that sense of danger. 

    WoW had a little bit of this here and there like the Fel Reaver in Hellfire Peninsula.  It patrolled all over the zone, and the ground would shake if it was walking near you.  If you didn't see it outright coming towards you, the ground would shake and you're like "oh crap" and start swinging your camera around looking for him.

    For PvP I advocate nothing but a fair fight.  This is why I've always been disinterested with PvP in MMOs... if it's not an issue of gear balance, it's rock-paper-scissors class design.

    Now Playing: Mission Against Terror, Battlefield 3, Skyrim, Dark Souls, League of Legends, Minecraft, and the piano. =3

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  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member

    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Originally posted by Cuathon

    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    Originally posted by Creslin321

    This can be nice because you know you'll never be put in a fight you can't win, but it kind of kills any feeling of exploration, danger, and most importantly, PROGRESSION in the game. 

    Actually, it's done because it enhances the feeling of progression for most players. The majority of players are playing to progress their character. The majority of players aren't playing to challenge themselves - the game is an entertaining diversion. Imagine the con of just a fraction of the mobs in any mainstream MMO shifted down a color or two. What's really a red now shows as yellow. What's really white now shows as green.

    Which do you think is the most likely scenario?

    A) Players see those mobs as a rewarding challenge

    B) Players complain the mobs are OP for their level and should be nerfed

    C) Players avoid those mobs altogether and fight the easier stuff

     

    I'd say B and C are good bets.

     

    Now, before Mr Extreme OutofLeftField RedHerringStrawMan jumps in... I never said that no game should be more challenging or that no one wants a more challenging PvE experience. I'm addressing the specific point the OP made that MMORPGs should get back to adding that level of challenge or difficulty. In an MMO where the playerbase is there for challenging battle and not to simply progreess their character, that would work. Very few MMOs are actually like that and very few players are actually looking for that (raid/boss/elite content the exception) so getting back to showing players this form of gameplay isn't anything that most MMOs should really focus on as it conflicts with what their players are trying to achieve/accomplish.



    This is an interesting post. It goes quite contrary to the ideas expressed by 2 certain players that what players really seek is complex challenging gameplay. I'm sure you know the two people I mean, I do not get along with them well.

    I would say that the kind of thing Creslin is talking about is not what you are talking about. He doesn't argue for all the mobs in the game to be exactly equivalent to the player in power. In fact he was arguing the opposite. I also don't think that the rare super strong Sand Giant style monster is there for a challenge. You aren't expected to play and beat it at a low level. You are expected to get crushed in a few seconds. Thus when you are finally able to kill it you are like wow that is so cool. I've changed.

    Its like in elementary school you think being a highschooler is so cool. And then one day you ARE one and you feel so cool. Omg, I'm in highschool!!!

    That's what this is about.

    Yes, exactly.  If anything, this post is arguing that RPGs have never really been about challenge, they've always been about progression.  Almost every single RPG I remember playing can be brought down to a trivial difficulty simply by grinding (ie progressing).  And I'm saying that's not necessarily a bad thing...that's just how RPGs are, and they have been successful with that philosophy for quite some time.



    My post is about MMOs, not RPGs, directly addressing what you were presenting in your OP  - adding some more challenging mobs in an MMO. What's funny is I actually knew you'd take that bizarre turn down Confusion Lane which is why I made a point to clarify the post with that closing paragraph. image

    Erm...since I made the OP, doesn't that mean I get to define what the thread is about ;)?

    Also...MMORPGs ARE RPGs.  They share an incredible amount of stuff with RPGs...they are just RPGs with a persistent world and lots of people, so yes, comparisons between RPGs and MMORPGs are perfectly valid.

    And the EXACT SAME argument that I made in the post you just responded to could be applied to specifically MMORPGs.  In almost every single MMORPG...you can trivialize content by grinding or getting better equip.  The only content that can't be trivialized is the stuff at the very end of the game or PvP.  Everything else can be "outleveled" or "outgeared."  How is this any different from RPGs?

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • dave6660dave6660 New York, NYPosts: 2,543Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Creslin321

    ...

    This can be nice because you know you'll never be put in a fight you can't win, but it kind of kills any feeling of exploration, danger, and most importantly, PROGRESSION in the game.  For example, in WoW, I'm always fighting MOBs that are yellow or green..that's it.  The quest nodes and zone levels on the map are very careful to guide me along a carefully determined path so that this is the case.  I never really feel like I'm progressing, because my foes are almost always the exact same level as me...they increase in strength precisely proportionately to my advanacement.

    ...

    Personally, I do feel like I'm progressing but it doesn't feel like any sort of accomplishment.  Hitting max level has become routine.  It has gotten to the point where leveling is so trivial that players are asking for it's removal.  It's like getting a trophy in pee-wee sports, all you have to do is show up.

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,666Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Originally posted by Loktofeit


    Originally posted by Creslin321


    Originally posted by Cuathon


    Originally posted by Loktofeit


    Originally posted by Creslin321



    This can be nice because you know you'll never be put in a fight you can't win, but it kind of kills any feeling of exploration, danger, and most importantly, PROGRESSION in the game. 

    Actually, it's done because it enhances the feeling of progression for most players. The majority of players are playing to progress their character. The majority of players aren't playing to challenge themselves - the game is an entertaining diversion. Imagine the con of just a fraction of the mobs in any mainstream MMO shifted down a color or two. What's really a red now shows as yellow. What's really white now shows as green.

    Which do you think is the most likely scenario?

    A) Players see those mobs as a rewarding challenge

    B) Players complain the mobs are OP for their level and should be nerfed

    C) Players avoid those mobs altogether and fight the easier stuff

     

    I'd say B and C are good bets.

     

    Now, before Mr Extreme OutofLeftField RedHerringStrawMan jumps in... I never said that no game should be more challenging or that no one wants a more challenging PvE experience. I'm addressing the specific point the OP made that MMORPGs should get back to adding that level of challenge or difficulty. In an MMO where the playerbase is there for challenging battle and not to simply progreess their character, that would work. Very few MMOs are actually like that and very few players are actually looking for that (raid/boss/elite content the exception) so getting back to showing players this form of gameplay isn't anything that most MMOs should really focus on as it conflicts with what their players are trying to achieve/accomplish.



    This is an interesting post. It goes quite contrary to the ideas expressed by 2 certain players that what players really seek is complex challenging gameplay. I'm sure you know the two people I mean, I do not get along with them well.

    I would say that the kind of thing Creslin is talking about is not what you are talking about. He doesn't argue for all the mobs in the game to be exactly equivalent to the player in power. In fact he was arguing the opposite. I also don't think that the rare super strong Sand Giant style monster is there for a challenge. You aren't expected to play and beat it at a low level. You are expected to get crushed in a few seconds. Thus when you are finally able to kill it you are like wow that is so cool. I've changed.

    Its like in elementary school you think being a highschooler is so cool. And then one day you ARE one and you feel so cool. Omg, I'm in highschool!!!

    That's what this is about.

    Yes, exactly.  If anything, this post is arguing that RPGs have never really been about challenge, they've always been about progression.  Almost every single RPG I remember playing can be brought down to a trivial difficulty simply by grinding (ie progressing).  And I'm saying that's not necessarily a bad thing...that's just how RPGs are, and they have been successful with that philosophy for quite some time.



    My post is about MMOs, not RPGs, directly addressing what you were presenting in your OP  - adding some more challenging mobs in an MMO. What's funny is I actually knew you'd take that bizarre turn down Confusion Lane which is why I made a point to clarify the post with that closing paragraph. image

    Erm...since I made the OP, doesn't that mean I get to define what the thread is about ;)?

    Also...MMORPGs ARE RPGs.  They share an incredible amount of stuff with RPGs...they are just RPGs with a persistent world and lots of people, so yes, comparisons between RPGs and MMORPGs are perfectly valid.

    And the EXACT SAME argument that I made in the post you just responded to could be applied to specifically MMORPGs.  In almost every single MMORPG...you can trivialize content by grinding or getting better equip.  The only content that can't be trivialized is the stuff at the very end of the game or PvP.  Everything else can be "outleveled" or "outgeared."  How is this any different from RPGs?

    I never dispuited any of that. You said that you really think (MMO)RPGs should get back to showing the player the terrifying monsters of the world at a lower level, and not being afraid to let them stumble on a dragon's lair just to put everything in perspective. Your example was conning in WOW. Since you qualified MMOs specifically there that particular aspect is what I was replying to.

    If you read the posts, you'll see we are in rather complete agreement about MMOs, RPGs and the gameplay. My post was solely about how the majority of players of the MMO subset of RPGs play the game and why "should get back to" is fine for the rest but not the majority.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • drbaltazardrbaltazar drummondville, QCPosts: 7,987Member

    fair?check in usa!there is some racing balancing!how they do it ?simple they had weight to the winner up to a certain limit!

    and you know what racer love it!cause talented racer get to show of their skill and less skill racer get to compete with the ultra pro!

    should be the same in game !there sshould be a balancing system!

  • moosecatlolmoosecatlol Boring, TXPosts: 1,171Member Uncommon

    As long as these "Terrifying monsters" are able to present fear in a skillful manner, rather than the cliché statistical fashion that is over represented in today's games.

     

    I still vote that levels and gear need to get the **** out.

    Also something very interesting I've noticed about games that allow gear to scale to an absurd level, is that players who were at one point considered "skillful" players, tend to play like $#!^ as the gear gets better and better. It's not just action rpgs that have dodge functions to avoid damage frames, its all games, as the players stats get better the less the effort the player has to put forth.

     

    I'm all for progression that is lead by difficulty of content, so long as that difficulty isn't determined by the number of  "+'s" required on your gear.

    Imagine a game that didn't have levels, and didn't hold the players hand through the content. Imagine what it would be like trying to determine which mobs you can handle and which mobs would end up being total bad-***es. Actually that kind of reminds of how I ended up having to play Cry of Fear.

  • GardavsshadeGardavsshade Cedar Springs, MIPosts: 761Member Uncommon

    I agree with the OP 100%.

    Oh... btw... I will be the idiot that walks into a Dragons lair as a Youngling just because I am curious and get my backside handed me on a Silver Platter........AS IT SHOULD BE.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,666Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Gardavsshade

    I agree with the OP 100%.

    Oh... btw... I will be the idiot that walks into a Dragons lair as a Youngling just because I am curious and get my backside handed me on a Silver Platter........AS IT SHOULD BE.

    That was my daily experience in my first months of UO and AC. :)

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,994Member Uncommon

    So what the OP is really saying is that MMORPG's should surprise us sometimes.

    I agree, the trend of late has been to remove all the surprise, your character's progression is a carefully calculated path that you follow from A to B to C, and rare is the moment when you find yourself outmatched. (I  have noticed in some games people are able to brag about how many levels they reached without ever dying, and they even reward them with titles.

    Now, while some (well one)  posters in this thread seem to love to misguidely slam EVE, the fact is even the most boring PVE activities can suddenly turn into some real excitement, frequently because you miscalculate something or another player comes along to spoil your peaceful day.  Ask any miner who's been suicide ganked in hi sec how safe and easy it is and whether or not they can just fall asleep at the keyboard.  Go out and run some level 5 missions, Level 10 Complexes or kill sleepers in a level 6 wormhole and watch your 3.5 billion ISK Carrier go boom and tell me there isn't any real excitement in EVE PVE.

    I'm thinking back to DAOC in the early days, and even though it was a level based game there were places where it would decide to suprise you with mobs that would BAF unexpectedly, or when pulling a partial camp for some reason the entire camp would come at you and wipe your group to the last man.  (We used to have great laughs when our Guild lead/primary puller would do this, and of course layed all the blame on him)

    Also, they'd send you out on quests into the frontiers, where you might encounter other high level players who would smack your lowbie arse down, or even run into monsters much higher than yourself that had no problem chasing you to the zone line.

    I don't mind losing on occasion, I recall Vanguard sort of took it the wrong way when you'd run into a wall of npc's you couldn't get past w/o a group, prefer being able to navigate my way through even a dangerous higer level land, w/o pulling aggro from ever monster within 10000 meters.

    So bring back the surprises I say!

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,725Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    Still not following what that has to do with the topic, but that could just be because it's late here. Is it that you agree that the evil (downside, negative, con, etc)  of having every battle a fair fight is that it steals away the feeling of progression or you disagree?

    Having every battle act like that robs the feeling of progression, yes.

    However you only need the tiniest fraction of battles to be unfair to have the feeling of progression.  For most players, one single trip back to demolish that low-level Bandit who used to give them trouble is enough.  They now understand they've progressed, and wish to continue having 99% of their battles be interesting (fair.)

    So calling fair fights "evil" is completely wrong, because players want fair fights the overwhelming majority of the time.  Too-easy fights are boredom and too-hard fights are frustration.   A game which bores or frustrates on a regular basis isn't going to be very popular (players want a game that entertains on a regular basis, and that means fair fights where decisions feel meaningful.)

    It's fine to let a masochistic player repeatedly engage these boring and frustrating fights, but the game should allow normal players to almost entirely avoid them.  Most players aren't interested in boredom or tedium, and should only encounter them in very controlled amounts (very rarely it's okay to fight something that's outright too difficult, and a little more frequently it's okay to fight something that pushes the player back a few steps and forces them to rework their strategy; and on the too-easy side of the fence it's just a matter of leaving areas alone and if the player wants to come back to them and obliterate that low Bandit, they can, but it's optional.)

     

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • dave6660dave6660 New York, NYPosts: 2,543Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by moosecatlol

    As long as these "Terrifying monsters" are able to present fear in a skillful manner, rather than the cliché statistical fashion that is over represented in today's games.

     

    I still vote that levels and gear need to get the **** out.

    Also something very interesting I've noticed about games that allow gear to scale to an absurd level, is that players who were at one point considered "skillful" players, tend to play like $#!^ as the gear gets better and better. It's not just action rpgs that have dodge functions to avoid damage frames, its all games, as the players stats get better the less the effort the player has to put forth.

     

    I'm all for progression that is lead by difficulty of content, so long as that difficulty isn't determined by the number of  "+'s" required on your gear.

    Imagine a game that didn't have levels, and didn't hold the players hand through the content. Imagine what it would be like trying to determine which mobs you can handle and which mobs would end up being total bad-***es. Actually that kind of reminds of how I ended up having to play Cry of Fear.

    You're throwing out the baby with the bath water.  You may not like their current implementation but that doesn't mean we should get rid of them completely.  Without them, I wouldn't reconize the RPG genre.

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    Great post/thread OP.

    Some MMOs are still trying with Elite mobs or Heroic areas/quests and such, or low level world bosses.

    One of the things TOR got right, IMO was having the Heroic areas/quests and low level world bosses.

     

    Encourages grouping for one, also gives that sense of danger and exploration.

    Motivation to gather friends and/or come back later.

    There were a few times in TOR while leveling up I'd come across a random elite mob and try to solo it, getting my ass handed to me. Then I'd usually try again, using different tactics and blowing cooldowns etc.

    World design in TOR kind of killed it though as everything was so gated/tunneled you never really had the motivation to go "off the beaten path" because it became a frustrating lesson in invisible walls and unclimbable barriers.

  • thinktank001thinktank001 oasisPosts: 2,027Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Creslin321

    One thing that I think is way different (in a bad way) when you compare the MMORPGS and RPGs of today to their counterparts of 90's is this concept that everything should be "fair."  In themepark MMORPGs, you are guided from quest to quest in a way that ensures the mobs you fight will always be around your level, so you always have a "fair" (typically easy) fight.  The same is true of modern SPRPGs, though they sometimes use devices like level-scaling to enforce this fairness as opposed to simply guiding the player.

    .....snipped for length......

    So in conclusion, I really think (MMO)RPGs should get back to showing the player the terrifying monsters of the world at a lower level, and not being afraid to let them stumble on a dragon's lair just to put everything in perspective.  I'm not advocating the use of "grief NPCs" like Everquest had, but I think it would be good to even have a few "non-aggro" NPCs of higher levels wandering around lower level places so that players could have something to strive for.

     

    I definitely agree with the fair fight issue, but I don't think it is solely due to game design based on level scaling.   It has much more to do with solo play.  If any mob can be solo'd it can't be challenging.     

  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member

    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    Still not following what that has to do with the topic, but that could just be because it's late here. Is it that you agree that the evil (downside, negative, con, etc)  of having every battle a fair fight is that it steals away the feeling of progression or you disagree?

    Having every battle act like that robs the feeling of progression, yes.

    However you only need the tiniest fraction of battles to be unfair to have the feeling of progression.  For most players, one single trip back to demolish that low-level Bandit who used to give them trouble is enough.  They now understand they've progressed, and wish to continue having 99% of their battles be interesting (fair.)

    So calling fair fights "evil" is completely wrong, because players want fair fights the overwhelming majority of the time.  Too-easy fights are boredom and too-hard fights are frustration.   A game which bores or frustrates on a regular basis isn't going to be very popular (players want a game that entertains on a regular basis, and that means fair fights where decisions feel meaningful.)

    It's fine to let a masochistic player repeatedly engage these boring and frustrating fights, but the game should allow normal players to almost entirely avoid them.  Most players aren't interested in boredom or tedium, and should only encounter them in very controlled amounts (very rarely it's okay to fight something that's outright too difficult, and a little more frequently it's okay to fight something that pushes the player back a few steps and forces them to rework their strategy; and on the too-easy side of the fence it's just a matter of leaving areas alone and if the player wants to come back to them and obliterate that low Bandit, they can, but it's optional.)

     



    Are you serious? Do you know how popular diablo is? How much of that game is about each fight being challenging and how much is about just mowing through armies of monsters like its nothing and farming hell level bosses thousands of times? I played a bit of WoW and most people just plowed through creeps at a lower level than them.

    I would say that the majority of players DON'T want fair fights. Otherwise they would play games that are much more effective at it than RPGs.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by Cuathon

    Are you serious? Do you know how popular diablo is? How much of that game is about each fight being challenging and how much is about just mowing through armies of monsters like its nothing and farming hell level bosses thousands of times? I played a bit of WoW and most people just plowed through creeps at a lower level than them.

    I would say that the majority of players DON'T want fair fights. Otherwise they would play games that are much more effective at it than RPGs.

     

    You are absolutely right. It is NOT about a fair fight. It is about the exercise of power, and feel good by progressing. In PvE games, people may want a *small* (emphasis on small) chance of failure to have the illusion of danger. However, if you make it too big (like in the early Catalysm H dungeons .. you can fail significantly .. like 1/3 .. if you are in green/blue gear and you have to know the fight), people are unhappy and complain.

    However, there are *some* who want fair fights. Those who do play rated BGs and Arenas .. or other competitive games.

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member

    Originally posted by Cuathon

    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    ...?

    Having every battle act like that robs the feeling of progression, yes.

    However you only need the tiniest fraction of battles to be unfair to have the feeling of progression.  For most players, one single trip back to demolish that low-level Bandit who used to give them trouble is enough.  They now understand they've progressed, and wish to continue having 99% of their battles be interesting (fair.)

    So calling fair fights "evil" is completely wrong, because players want fair fights the overwhelming majority of the time.  Too-easy fights are boredom and too-hard fights are frustration.   A game which bores or frustrates on a regular basis isn't going to be very popular (players want a game that entertains on a regular basis, and that means fair fights where decisions feel meaningful.)

    It's fine to let a masochistic player repeatedly engage these boring and frustrating fights, but the game should allow normal players to almost entirely avoid them.  Most players aren't interested in boredom or tedium, and should only encounter them in very controlled amounts (very rarely it's okay to fight something that's outright too difficult, and a little more frequently it's okay to fight something that pushes the player back a few steps and forces them to rework their strategy; and on the too-easy side of the fence it's just a matter of leaving areas alone and if the player wants to come back to them and obliterate that low Bandit, they can, but it's optional.)

     



    Are you serious? Do you know how popular diablo is? How much of that game is about each fight being challenging and how much is about just mowing through armies of monsters like its nothing and farming hell level bosses thousands of times? I played a bit of WoW and most people just plowed through creeps at a lower level than them.

    I would say that the majority of players DON'T want fair fights. Otherwise they would play games that are much more effective at it than RPGs.

    Pretty much, yeah.

    Here's the thing...

    I LOVE some games that offer "fair fights."  Fighting games (SF/MK), RTS games (SC2), TBS games (Civ/EU3), and even PvP in some MMO's!

    All these games offer "fair fights" and I enjoy it immensely.  My problem is not with fair fights in general.  My problem is with the incongruence found between trying to always offer a fair fight, and trying to give players a real sense of progression.

    If I'm playing an RPG where I start off as a peasant struggling to kill goblins and will eventually evolve to a powerful wizard that can challenge the gods, then I seriously don't want the game to ensure that every fight I entire is "balanced."  It just kills that sense of progression because everything is RELATIVE.  Even though I am getting more powerful, the mobs are made more powerful at the same rate to compensate.  So the result is that it feels I am stagnating at the same level of "power."

    This is made even worse by the fact that many of these games try to make you feel "powerful" from day 1.  The result is that you get crazy scenarios where you are fighting a gigantic earth elemental at level 1, and then fighting "blue" goblins instead of "red" goblins at level 45.  So this means that you really don't feel any more powerful at all..the games do such a good job at making you feel powerful at level 1, that you essentially reach the endpoint of your "perceived" power at level 1.

     

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member

    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Originally posted by Cuathon


    Originally posted by Axehilt


    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    ...?

    Having every battle act like that robs the feeling of progression, yes.

    However you only need the tiniest fraction of battles to be unfair to have the feeling of progression.  For most players, one single trip back to demolish that low-level Bandit who used to give them trouble is enough.  They now understand they've progressed, and wish to continue having 99% of their battles be interesting (fair.)

    So calling fair fights "evil" is completely wrong, because players want fair fights the overwhelming majority of the time.  Too-easy fights are boredom and too-hard fights are frustration.   A game which bores or frustrates on a regular basis isn't going to be very popular (players want a game that entertains on a regular basis, and that means fair fights where decisions feel meaningful.)

    It's fine to let a masochistic player repeatedly engage these boring and frustrating fights, but the game should allow normal players to almost entirely avoid them.  Most players aren't interested in boredom or tedium, and should only encounter them in very controlled amounts (very rarely it's okay to fight something that's outright too difficult, and a little more frequently it's okay to fight something that pushes the player back a few steps and forces them to rework their strategy; and on the too-easy side of the fence it's just a matter of leaving areas alone and if the player wants to come back to them and obliterate that low Bandit, they can, but it's optional.)

     



    Are you serious? Do you know how popular diablo is? How much of that game is about each fight being challenging and how much is about just mowing through armies of monsters like its nothing and farming hell level bosses thousands of times? I played a bit of WoW and most people just plowed through creeps at a lower level than them.

    I would say that the majority of players DON'T want fair fights. Otherwise they would play games that are much more effective at it than RPGs.

    Pretty much, yeah.

    Here's the thing...

    I LOVE some games that offer "fair fights."  Fighting games (SF/MK), RTS games (SC2), TBS games (Civ/EU3), and even PvP in some MMO's!

    All these games offer "fair fights" and I enjoy it immensely.  My problem is not with fair fights in general.  My problem is with the incongruence found between trying to always offer a fair fight, and trying to give players a real sense of progression.

    If I'm playing an RPG where I start off as a peasant struggling to kill goblins and will eventually evolve to a powerful wizard that can challenge the gods, then I seriously don't want the game to ensure that every fight I entire is "balanced."  It just kills that sense of progression because everything is RELATIVE.  Even though I am getting more powerful, the mobs are made more powerful at the same rate to compensate.  So the result is that it feels I am stagnating at the same level of "power."

    This is made even worse by the fact that many of these games try to make you feel "powerful" from day 1.  The result is that you get crazy scenarios where you are fighting a gigantic earth elemental at level 1, and then fighting "blue" goblins instead of "red" goblins at level 45.  So this means that you really don't feel any more powerful at all..the games do such a good job at making you feel powerful at level 1, that you essentially reach the endpoint of your "perceived" power at level 1.

     



    Yes I agree.

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,725Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Cuathon



    Are you serious? Do you know how popular diablo is? How much of that game is about each fight being challenging and how much is about just mowing through armies of monsters like its nothing and farming hell level bosses thousands of times? I played a bit of WoW and most people just plowed through creeps at a lower level than them.

    I would say that the majority of players DON'T want fair fights. Otherwise they would play games that are much more effective at it than RPGs.

    So when you played Diablo there was never a threat of dying at all, ever?  Beating multiple mobs doesn't mean you never come under risk of death, and the game shines brightest when you're nearly overcome by mobs and are required to use tactics and effective ability use to overcome challenges.

    I mean one of the shortcomings of both Diablo and WOW is how both games make it really hard to find a rewarding challenge.  Diablo 2 forces you to play through the boring difficulty mode first, and WOW rewards you for fighting -2 level mobs at a higher rate than +4 level mobs.

    Clearly CoH is the superior model, as the harder mobs you fight the faster your progression, and that's obviously the "Challenge vs. Reward" ideal that games should aspire to.

    All it would take is letting you choose the difficulty in Diablo, and changing the XP reward structure in WOW.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member

    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Originally posted by Cuathon



    Are you serious? Do you know how popular diablo is? How much of that game is about each fight being challenging and how much is about just mowing through armies of monsters like its nothing and farming hell level bosses thousands of times? I played a bit of WoW and most people just plowed through creeps at a lower level than them.

    I would say that the majority of players DON'T want fair fights. Otherwise they would play games that are much more effective at it than RPGs.

    So when you played Diablo there was never a threat of dying at all, ever?  Beating multiple mobs doesn't mean you never come under risk of death, and the game shines brightest when you're nearly overcome by mobs and are required to use tactics and effective ability use to overcome challenges.

    I mean one of the shortcomings of both Diablo and WOW is how both games make it really hard to find a rewarding challenge.  Diablo 2 forces you to play through the boring difficulty mode first, and WOW rewards you for fighting -2 level mobs at a higher rate than +4 level mobs.

    Clearly CoH is the superior model, as the harder mobs you fight the faster your progression, and that's obviously the "Challenge vs. Reward" ideal that games should aspire to.

    All it would take is letting you choose the difficulty in Diablo, and changing the XP reward structure in WOW.



    I almost never died in Diablo. I played a necro. I played some other classes also.

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