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item decay

bishboshbishbosh SydneyPosts: 388Member

why dont more devs use this as an alternative to bound items.  it allows for inflationless player economy without resorting to full loot/destruction upon death

 

item decay occur occur upon use of items (minor decay)

or upon death (major decay)

or maybe both?

 

once the item has completely decayed you have to find a replacement. that way crafting is useful, there is an active economy and there is constantly something to do ie. ind/craft/buy good replacement weapons/armor

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Comments

  • VrikaVrika FinlandPosts: 2,588Member Uncommon

    1) Goldsellers

    2) People want to progress and get stronger. If the reward for playing some content is being able to keep your character's power from detoriating it's very anticlimatic.

    3) People will optimize if given the chance. A small group of elite players will tackle the hardest content, and less-skilled players will farm easier content for those elite players in exchange for elite player's rare drops. In the end everyone plays only small amount of game's total content, gets bored because it's so repetitive, and quits the game.

     

    Non-BoP and decay can work with sandbox setting where the aim is to change the world around you, keep your guilds own keep under your control, etc, but it doesn't work with themepark MMOs.

  • mrw0lfmrw0lf LondonPosts: 2,269Member

    1) Whiners

    2) Lazy devs

    -----
    “The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.”

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common

    It is largely an annoyance because it doesn't bring any more depth to the adventuring side of things. Generally you cannot focus on destroying your enemy's armor/weapon during combat. When something breaks its a random event or due to someone slacking on their repairs.

    Item decay has been used as a form of temporary death penalty (which can also be done with debuffs) but I don't see it working as a means to promote crafting.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by bishbosh

    why dont more devs use this as an alternative to bound items.  it allows for inflationless player economy without resorting to full loot/destruction upon death

     

    item decay occur occur upon use of items (minor decay)

    or upon death (major decay)

    or maybe both?

     

    once the item has completely decayed you have to find a replacement. that way crafting is useful, there is an active economy and there is constantly something to do ie. ind/craft/buy good replacement weapons/armor

    Because "inflationless" is not a top priority.

  • VengerVenger York, PAPosts: 1,318Member

    Originally posted by mrw0lf

    1) Whiners

    2) Lazy devs

    This pretty much sums it up.

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    Originally posted by Venger


    Originally posted by mrw0lf

    1) Whiners
    2) Lazy devs

    This pretty much sums it up.

     

    But in that order by a long way.
  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member

    Originally posted by Quirhid

    It is largely an annoyance because it doesn't bring any more depth to the adventuring side of things. Generally you cannot focus on destroying your enemy's armor/weapon during combat. When something breaks its a random event or due to someone slacking on their repairs.

    Item decay has been used as a form of temporary death penalty (which can also be done with debuffs) but I don't see it working as a means to promote crafting.

    That is not true at all. If items do not decay the economy stagnates. Do you know how much of the real world economy is based on things deteriorating?

  • dave6660dave6660 New York, NYPosts: 2,543Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Quirhid

    It is largely an annoyance because it doesn't bring any more depth to the adventuring side of things. Generally you cannot focus on destroying your enemy's armor/weapon during combat. When something breaks its a random event or due to someone slacking on their repairs.

    Item decay has been used as a form of temporary death penalty (which can also be done with debuffs) but I don't see it working as a means to promote crafting.

    It's fairly simple.  Items get destroyed and must be replaced.  Crafters make the new items.

    It doesn't work well in level based games because most of the items are not crafted.  Also, before you hit max level, you're changing gear every other day nothing has time to decay.  Crafters are mass producing low level gear just to level up their crafting skill and there simply is no market for it.

    The system works great in Eve.  Other games simply choose not to follow a good example.

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • CeridithCeridith Toronto, ONPosts: 2,980Member

    The problem is the themepark grind for your gear design philosophy.

    If you spend hours upon hours running dungeons or raids, only to lose your gear from it breaking, it well, sucks.

    If on the other hand, the best and most prominently used gear in a game is player crafter and comparatively 'easier' to acquire or produce (relative to raiding that is), then item decay makes sense.

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member

    I would point out that in just about any gear-based game, gear obsolecence is functionally equivilent to decay - except for players at the extreme top of the plateau, if you are using the gear enough for it to wear down, you are probably using it enough to find the next tier of gear.

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    Originally posted by Ceridith

    The problem is the themepark grind for your gear design philosophy.
    If you spend hours upon hours running dungeons or raids, only to lose your gear from it breaking, it well, sucks.
    If on the other hand, the best and most prominently used gear in a game is player crafter and comparatively 'easier' to acquire or produce (relative to raiding that is), then item decay makes sense.

     

    Yes, item decay only really works when all items are crafted.
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,672Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Ceridith

    The problem is the themepark grind for your gear design philosophy.

    If you spend hours upon hours running dungeons or raids, only to lose your gear from it breaking, it well, sucks.

    If on the other hand, the best and most prominently used gear in a game is player crafter and comparatively 'easier' to acquire or produce (relative to raiding that is), then item decay makes sense.

    Agreed. Item decay only works in virtual worlds where the items are readily replacable, storage is plentiful enough to maintain spares/backups, and gear selection is based on personal preference and not what a certain tier/rank/level mandates.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • DisdenaDisdena Troy, NYPosts: 1,093Member

    Originally posted by Vrika

     

    2) People want to progress and get stronger. If the reward for playing some content is being able to keep your character's power from detoriating it's very anticlimatic.



     

    Best reason I've seen so far. Gaining a permanent boost (like leveling up) feels good. Gaining resources that temporarily boost you (like an item that will break as it is used) feels much worse, especially when just running the content is guaranteed to deplete your resources regardless of whether you do well or not.

    image
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by Ceridith

    The problem is the themepark grind for your gear design philosophy.

    If you spend hours upon hours running dungeons or raids, only to lose your gear from it breaking, it well, sucks.

    If on the other hand, the best and most prominently used gear in a game is player crafter and comparatively 'easier' to acquire or produce (relative to raiding that is), then item decay makes sense.

    It is not a problem. It is a response to human nature.

    These games are built on the natural desire to collect and progress. Why would i care about gear and drops if they are too easy to get?

    And if i craft the said gear (and it is much easier to get), i will have 10 sets back in my bank waiting for this one to break. Then gear lost a lot of the specail quality. I am not sure i want to play a game like that.

    There is no reason why a game economy with "no inflation" is better and more fun. Inflation is not that rampant anyway. There is no need to break another game design just to fix an imaginery problem.

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 18,028Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by bishbosh

    why dont more devs use this as an alternative to bound items.  it allows for inflationless player economy without resorting to full loot/destruction upon death

    item decay occur occur upon use of items (minor decay)

    or upon death (major decay)

    or maybe both?

    once the item has completely decayed you have to find a replacement. that way crafting is useful, there is an active economy and there is constantly something to do ie. ind/craft/buy good replacement weapons/armor

    That works fine in a game where you get most of your items from crafting.

    In a game with raiding for gear and most of the stuff people have is dropped it doesn't work.

    A compromize would be to let the max percentage of an item go down 5% every time you repair it but stay at 25% as a minimum. that means stuff you used a lot needs to be repaired more often and would encourage players to get new gear without making someones raid gear break after a few days.

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon


    Originally posted by Ceridith

    The problem is the themepark grind for your gear design philosophy.
    If you spend hours upon hours running dungeons or raids, only to lose your gear from it breaking, it well, sucks.
    If on the other hand, the best and most prominently used gear in a game is player crafter and comparatively 'easier' to acquire or produce (relative to raiding that is), then item decay makes sense.

    It is not a problem. It is a response to human nature.

    These games are built on the natural desire to collect and progress. Why would i care about gear and drops if they are too easy to get?

    And if i craft the said gear (and it is much easier to get), i will have 10 sets back in my bank waiting for this one to break. Then gear lost a lot of the specail quality. I am not sure i want to play a game like that.

    There is no reason why a game economy with "no inflation" is better and more fun. Inflation is not that rampant anyway. There is no need to break another game design just to fix an imaginery problem.

     

    I think it's best if you stick to WoW, you like it too much to want anything too different.
  • bishboshbishbosh SydneyPosts: 388Member

    Originally posted by Disdena

    Originally posted by Vrika

     

    2) People want to progress and get stronger. If the reward for playing some content is being able to keep your character's power from detoriating it's very anticlimatic.



     

    Best reason I've seen so far. Gaining a permanent boost (like leveling up) feels good. Gaining resources that temporarily boost you (like an item that will break as it is used) feels much worse, especially when just running the content is guaranteed to deplete your resources regardless of whether you do well or not.

    you can still improve your characters power with an item decay system. when you start out the game you have a crappy item and with it you can farm mainly crappy monsters or raids (in themepark games) that give crappy mats. during the time it takes your item to decay you craft a better item. then you farm stronger monsters or raids that give slighty better items and you can make better items etc etc etc

    eventually all players should reach a plateu (this plateu should not take long to reach) where it is equally hard to get stronger as it is to get weaker in terms of gear. this plateau will depend on how you play the game (good desicions vs bad desicions, take risks or play it safe etc)

    if you make poor desicions, get killed too much etc etc you might end up with a weaker item next time it comes to replacing that item. 

    another advantage of this system is that players are rewarded for the desicions making and skill rather than the time spent since items decay faster the more you play.  in bound item systems whoever no-lifes  raid content will have the best gear. in my opininion mmorpgs should try and avoid rewarding players for time spent.

    lately the trend has been to reward players based on time spent rather than intelligent thinking because everyone has time but not many people have intelligence.

     

  • LarsaLarsa NurembergPosts: 990Member

    I'm all for item decay, especially as a death penalty. I don't like this whole BOE, BOP thing. I'd like a system where items gradually decay and - on death - durabilty gets a heavy hit that cannot be repaired, let's say that your equipment has zero durability left after 5 deaths.

    Should tell people that they have to die less frequently. Additionally it creates an economy that cannot exist with items that never need replacement.

     

    I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.

  • DisdenaDisdena Troy, NYPosts: 1,093Member

    Originally posted by bishbosh

    Originally posted by Disdena


    Originally posted by Vrika

     

    2) People want to progress and get stronger. If the reward for playing some content is being able to keep your character's power from detoriating it's very anticlimatic.



     

    Best reason I've seen so far. Gaining a permanent boost (like leveling up) feels good. Gaining resources that temporarily boost you (like an item that will break as it is used) feels much worse, especially when just running the content is guaranteed to deplete your resources regardless of whether you do well or not.

    you can still improve your characters power with an item decay system. when you start out the game you have a crappy item and with it you can farm mainly crappy monsters or raids (in themepark games) that give crappy mats. during the time it takes your item to decay you craft a better item. then you farm stronger monsters or raids that give slighty better items and you can make better items etc etc etc

    eventually all players should reach a plateu (this plateu should not take long to reach) where it is equally hard to get stronger as it is to get weaker in terms of gear. this plateau will depend on how you play the game (good desicions vs bad desicions, take risks or play it safe etc)

    if you make poor desicions, get killed too much etc etc you might end up with a weaker item next time it comes to replacing that item. 

    another advantage of this system is that players are rewarded for the desicions making and skill rather than the time spent since items decay faster the more you play.  in bound item systems whoever no-lifes  raid content will have the best gear. in my opininion mmorpgs should try and avoid rewarding players for time spent.

    lately the trend has been to reward players based on time spent rather than intelligent thinking because everyone has time but not many people have intelligence.

     

    It's just my opinion, but I feel that that runs counter to a core RPG mechanic. You're supposed to be rewarded for time spent. Being more "skilled" means you get more of a reward for the time you invest, whether that skill is running quests in most optimal order to get them done quickly, or refraining from crafting items that are not profitable, or making decisions in combat that don't get them killed.

    The incentive to play better is that skilled players advance at a faster rate, but everyone except the most thick-headed ought to be able to plod forward at some pace, even if it's slow. You shouldn't reach a point where you say "From here on out, when I log in, I'm just treading water to stay in the same place unless I improve." That's appropriate for other games, like platformers (in Mega Man 2, if you're not good enough to beat Air Man's stage, you can't see the rest of the game until you improve). It's not appropriate for an MMORPG.

    image
  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member

    Originally posted by Disdena

    Originally posted by bishbosh


    Originally posted by Disdena


    Originally posted by Vrika

     

    2) People want to progress and get stronger. If the reward for playing some content is being able to keep your character's power from detoriating it's very anticlimatic.



     

    Best reason I've seen so far. Gaining a permanent boost (like leveling up) feels good. Gaining resources that temporarily boost you (like an item that will break as it is used) feels much worse, especially when just running the content is guaranteed to deplete your resources regardless of whether you do well or not.

    you can still improve your characters power with an item decay system. when you start out the game you have a crappy item and with it you can farm mainly crappy monsters or raids (in themepark games) that give crappy mats. during the time it takes your item to decay you craft a better item. then you farm stronger monsters or raids that give slighty better items and you can make better items etc etc etc

    eventually all players should reach a plateu (this plateu should not take long to reach) where it is equally hard to get stronger as it is to get weaker in terms of gear. this plateau will depend on how you play the game (good desicions vs bad desicions, take risks or play it safe etc)

    if you make poor desicions, get killed too much etc etc you might end up with a weaker item next time it comes to replacing that item. 

    another advantage of this system is that players are rewarded for the desicions making and skill rather than the time spent since items decay faster the more you play.  in bound item systems whoever no-lifes  raid content will have the best gear. in my opininion mmorpgs should try and avoid rewarding players for time spent.

    lately the trend has been to reward players based on time spent rather than intelligent thinking because everyone has time but not many people have intelligence.

     

    It's just my opinion, but I feel that that runs counter to a core RPG mechanic. You're supposed to be rewarded for time spent. Being more "skilled" means you get more of a reward for the time you invest, whether that skill is running quests in most optimal order to get them done quickly, or refraining from crafting items that are not profitable, or making decisions in combat that don't get them killed.

    The incentive to play better is that skilled players advance at a faster rate, but everyone except the most thick-headed ought to be able to plod forward at some pace, even if it's slow. You shouldn't reach a point where you say "From here on out, when I log in, I'm just treading water to stay in the same place unless I improve." That's appropriate for other games, like platformers (in Mega Man 2, if you're not good enough to beat Air Man's stage, you can't see the rest of the game until you improve). It's not appropriate for an MMORPG.



    I'm sorry, level cap wants to say hi.

  • AntariousAntarious Greenville, SCPosts: 2,802Member

    Originally posted by bishbosh

    why dont more devs use this as an alternative to bound items.  it allows for inflationless player economy without resorting to full loot/destruction upon death

     

    item decay occur occur upon use of items (minor decay)

    or upon death (major decay)

    or maybe both?

     

    once the item has completely decayed you have to find a replacement. that way crafting is useful, there is an active economy and there is constantly something to do ie. ind/craft/buy good replacement weapons/armor

     

    This comes down to two things in my opinion:

     

    1) The general game design used for the majority of MMO's (raiding is not decay friendly imho).

     

    2) Player conception/reaction

     

    Ultima Online to me is a good example.   I don't remember if there was a limit on number of repairs a smith could do to an item (or later the deeds they could make so non smith's could repair).

     

    However, in early UO... item decay was basicly when you died... other players could loot you and npc's would loot you.   Granted if you could find the monster you might get your stuff back or if you killed the player you might.. but people obviously lost stuff.

     

    Now I know a lot of people who just raged and quit over losing... complete crap.   I mean my entire guild quit when our tower got looted and really it was just chests full of crap.. complete junk.   (now maybe you get why I say raiding MMO's are not a good design currently for decay because those items aren't really junk.. but anyway..)

     

    The thing was in UO I crafted everything I used.   I didn't care if I died and was looted because I had 5 to 6 complete setups in my bank... go to bank grab bag open bag... equip armor/weapon etc good to go... small selection of regs everything I needed.   Total loss of items on death was such a small amount even if you had to buy the gear.  

     

    I sold gimp suits as we later called them .. complete with a weapon of every type and a shield for like 2500 gold.   2500 gold in UO did not take long to make... and my vendor became like a full time job but I had gold stored everywhere. 

     

    You need a game that is basicly designed with player crafting in mind in order to have decay.   Now UO early on had "magic items" like armor of invuln and weapons of vanq... but I never felt at a handicap in PvP when I was using my crafted stuff... I didn't really die that often in UO after about the first month.

     

    The problem with most games after UO that had good crafting... was the way it worked.

     

    Two examples...

     

    Star Wars Galaxies and Dark Age of Camelot.

     

    In SWG because of the multitude of resource quality... having to replace your prized weapon/armor... was almost as bad as a raiding game.   Simply because if you broke something... you might find that the only replacements for sale were junk in comparison.   This is why in my opinion... having resources that spawn at various quality levels is a bad idea.

     

    In DAoC I remember when I got my reaver to 50... and someone was telling me how much a suit of chain mail would cost.. how much it would cost to spell craft it... and to be honest I'd never had that much plat in the game to begin with.   The idea here being... when it cost so much in game money to get an item made... that the national debt of the US seems small in comparison... something is wrong with your design.

     

    The problem overall is... so you design a game with a good crafting system and you can have item decay.   Except the majority of your potential player base is used to forming up their "leet" guild and being able to raid for the best stuff... so what exactly do you raid for?   Because... if you make crafting raid related.. then you are going to fall into one of the traps previously mentioned... like having it be so hard to replace gear that people would rather quit then deal with decay..

     

    Sorry for the wall of text but that's pretty much how i see the market.

     

    Now if you had a developer that could make a game and be happy with a concurrent subscriber number of 200,000 to 300,000... (obviously that's a guess on my part lolz..)  then you might get that game made...

     

    Which I guess leads to another problem... most companies that would make that game... are so underfunded or clueless... I wouldn't want to play the game personally... even tho the general idea is what I am looking for in an MMO.

    Moderator's on this site allow certain posters to create endless troll threads. Yet "warn" people for giving recommendations... account *pending* deletion because.. why bother.

  • bishboshbishbosh SydneyPosts: 388Member

    It's just my opinion, but I feel that that runs counter to a core RPG mechanic. You're supposed to be rewarded for time spent. Being more "skilled" means you get more of a reward for the time you invest, whether that skill is running quests in most optimal order to get them done quickly, or refraining from crafting items that are not profitable, or making decisions in combat that don't get them killed.

    The incentive to play better is that skilled players advance at a faster rate, but everyone except the most thick-headed ought to be able to plod forward at some pace, even if it's slow. You shouldn't reach a point where you say "From here on out, when I log in, I'm just treading water to stay in the same place unless I improve." That's appropriate for other games, like platformers (in Mega Man 2, if you're not good enough to beat Air Man's stage, you can't see the rest of the game until you improve). It's not appropriate for an MMORPG.

     i woudlnt say its not appropriate. if we disregard gameplay mechanics because they dont "fit" mmorpgs will just continue ot be clones.  item decay is a different reward mechanic that could be implemented  and i think it would be much better. it actually allows casual players a chance to compete with jobless basement dwellers <<-- isnt this the latest trend?. i think this mechanic is superior  to bound items as it is

    1. casual friendly from a time perspective

    2. allows for a player economy and thus greater gameplay depth

     

    it seems the industry is trying to move away from time based rewards but they are doing it wrong by making things too easy and implementing stupid systems like rested EXP.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,672Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Disdena

    It's just my opinion, but I feel that that runs counter to a core RPG mechanic. You're supposed to be rewarded for time spent.

    The entitlement runs deep in this one.

     

    If that was true, then a DnD campaign wouldn't have been about mapping through unknown paths, disarming traps, outwitting or defeating your enemy, and getting to the goal alive.  What RPG was ever about the time spent?

     

    If DnD had been invented by today's gamers, the dungeon would be two 10x10 rooms. The first one for the party to spin in place and constantly roll for random encounters, and the second room to pop open filled with purple loot after their dizzied characters reached the level cap in the first one.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • Judith48Judith48 San Francisco, CAPosts: 6Member

    A small group of elite players will tackle the hardest content, and less-skilled players will farm easier content for those elite players in exchange for elite player's rare drops.

  • bishboshbishbosh SydneyPosts: 388Member

    Originally posted by Antarious

    Originally posted by bishbosh

    why dont more devs use this as an alternative to bound items.  it allows for inflationless player economy without resorting to full loot/destruction upon death

     

    item decay occur occur upon use of items (minor decay)

    or upon death (major decay)

    or maybe both?

     

    once the item has completely decayed you have to find a replacement. that way crafting is useful, there is an active economy and there is constantly something to do ie. ind/craft/buy good replacement weapons/armor

     

    This comes down to two things in my opinion:

     

    1) The general game design used for the majority of MMO's (raiding is not decay friendly imho).

     

    2) Player conception/reaction

     

    Ultima Online to me is a ............. *SNIP*

    raiding could be crafting/decay friendly

    its just about getting it right

     

    say on average a set of gear lasts 5 raids . therefore a 20 man raid will need to farm 20 sets of gear in 5 raids in order to continue raid progression.

    1. if they perform poorly in the raids they will acquire enough mats to gear up their whole raid group and progressing to the next tier raid would be risky/difficult and they might have to redo a current tier/lower teir  raid until they are geared.

    2. if they succeed they will most likely have a fair chance of success with the next higher tier raid. they might even have some surplus mats as back or to sell on the market.

    this flow is fairly similar to what happens with bound item systems except it allows for a player economy and the ability to acquire raid quality gear through trade. people who dont like raiding can whatever they like doing and receive good rewards. players will not be forced to raid. if you dont like non raiders getting raid gear, well then its up to you to not sell your raid gear on the market.

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