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My first PC was a Dragon 32. I loaded gamed with a tape recorder. Games generally took about 15 minutes to load and were 2d block graphics. Elite was a mindblowing breakthrough in graphics because it used isometric geometry to give the perception of 3D while only being 2D line graphics. I had to edit the Autoexec.bat and config.sys files to get a new game to work. I can't remember many games that I could actually 'beat' or 'win'. I was one of the 'geeky' few who understood computers.
Since the release and popularity of WOW I now leave stop playing games because I have done everything worthwhile. I no loner get stuck on a hard part of a game, I either just tag along with others that have done it 1000' times before or look it up. I literally do not have to think to play any more. I listen to help channels where, at the first sign of trouble other player shout and swear and throw tantrums till someone explains to them exactly how to do something....explained in the tutorial and mentioned about 50 times in help in the past 2 minutes. I am still one on the 'geeky' few, unfortunately now the 'gotta look cool' kids want in and shock/horror find they are STILL too stupid to actually be self sufficient.
While only a personal opinion, people claiming little or no difference in the IQ of gamers and online gamers, are full of shit.
I played most of the big MMO's since 1996 and none of them pushed the limits of the brain to play them, it just took longer to accomplish goals such as leveling. Older games had less handholding and more time sinks than today but that is different than IQ level to play.
Spamming your kick/taunt on cool down or your 2-4 macro keys to fire your abilities in the most efficient manner does not require much IQ more so than it does just simply paying attention. Now the attention span of todays gamers is an entire other story with the i-phone, keyboards that let you watch movies, listening to your MP3 collection, while texting your friends and updating your facebook while you are suppose to be focused what you are doing in game like do not stand in the glowing crap on the floor or the boss is about to cleave read the giant red text on your screen and move out of the way......
Since far to many gamers can not get out of the glowing crap or the cleave developers have adjusted game play to match the lack of attention span of the average gamer and that means more linear and more handholding and why you get the games we have today. I do not think it has anything to do with IQ at least as it pertains to games :P
Originally posted by Torgrim It's not about IQ but I do understand what you getting at OP. MMOs today can be translated into lazy fatman couch sitting gameplay. Everything is there for you to do with minimal effort required, you don't have to read the quests, you just follow the arrow or check the blue/green/yellow blob on the map, and interact with mobs that stand still waiting for you to kill them, you don't even need a weapon you can fart em to death, yes they are so easy to kill. Pick up things, no worries even a blind man can see the glowy christmas treen scattered around the blob area. Raids are also a cakewalk, most raids work with spank and tank. Crafting, why even have crafting when it's pretty a after thought and pretty much useless in most MMOs to day. So say goodby to Themepark MMOs and say welcome to Railpark genre, where you are just there for the narrow ride where you can't turn left or right, just follow it to the end and go home and pick up next MMO that is hyped to the heavens.
Hey you know this here thing youre on called the internet. Its too easy, you should get off it and go get your information from your local paper or some magazines and flip through each page manually searching for what you want. Arent you tired of all these easy mode categorized forums and scrolling boxes popping up with all the latest information for me to see without having to go digging around for it? Down with boolean searches too!
ok im done....
Originally posted by Valkaern Originally posted by adam_nox one of the bigger myths rears it's ugly head again. old mmo's weren't harder. They were less intuitive, less refined, and generally poorly made, which may have indirectly made them more difficult to play, but you'd only value this if you want to reward stupidity, not eliminate it.
What a load of nonsense. Sure I won't argue they were often less polished, but pretending that they handed you free rewards for walking across town without drowning in your drool as is common today is absurd. Today most games can be experienced mostly solo, which is a blatant indication of a major difficulty shift as in many older games most challenges and content required a group or team to take down, because they were not easy enough to be done solo. See how that works?
AC was soloable...was it easy? In EQ the only hard part was finding a camping spawn group to sit in for hours of mindless button mashing broken up by occassional dungeon runs. Yeah was so hard to roll my head on the keyboard.
It's vastly easier to advance in current mmos, and charging blindly into a fight alone will almost always result in an easy win unless you're intentionally avoiding their golden path that safely carries you from one appropriate area to the next, and where you shouldn't be. That was almost certain death in any pre-'04 MMO. Or do you deny that to?
AC you could outrun anything if you did not stop to fight it. In AC I remember running through crap tough areas to get to a nice dungeon that you would spend hours in just clearing over and over to build up skills. Yeah for epic difficulty. Tusker farming anyone with the hunderds of others out there....epic..or the Lugian farming from the towers with magic or bows. EQ was area based level creatures. EQ you left your area you were dead as you are in MMO's today. I fail to see your point on how it is different.
Let's not forget content such as dungeons, in which a second or two misjudgement on casting snare would eaither mean over aggroing (which was actually deadly when not the tank) or letting the mob escape to round up enough nearby friends to most likely destroy your group. These days, not only do we not have to worry about them fleeing, we'd welcome it as it saves us the trouble of rounding up everything so we can AE it down with ease.
Clearly remember wiping a lot in Black Rock Depths in WoW because mobs run to other mobs or people breaking poly's in instaces. I remember face rolling places in EQ and AC because you could bring a thousand people with you. DAoC you were lucky in a dungeon to not have 5 other groups in there with you trying to complete stuff. I think you are over simplifying things because games advance and older content is not modified for new changes and balances in games.
Raids? Co-ordinating 70+ people without teamspeak is a bit more chalenging than managing 20ish with teamspeak and a studied youtube guide of the dance steps. Rather than having to carefully manage stages of a fight as well as aggro (Hey we have meters now that take all th thought out of that too!), just watch for the mod to clearly display exactly what to do & when. I see a big difference, thanks for your insights though. It's also worth remembering these weren't the 5-10 minute simon says games of today either but often complex scenarios that often lasted 30 minutes -1hr+, in which everyone needed to maintain concentration and focus.
And why did those 70+ raids dissappear...because not enough people wanted to do them. The time of hurry up and wait was mind numbing. Pet Rock was more fun to play with than a 70+ person raid. In most cases who made the threat monitors and things that tell people the steps. WoW did not come out with those. Raiders made them to maximize their raid. You should blame raiders for that. They made them then forced people to have them or they were not allowed in the raid. If they existed back in the day EQ snobs would have forced them. They did equipment checks back then on people. So stop blaming the companies for providing what the players wanted and made.
You can pretend otherwise, but I assure you that you won't trick anyone that actually has any experience with the older more challenging games.
I think you only tricked yourself into believing they were better. There is a reason EQ2 had to change and people left AC and EQ. They sucked.
Remember having to pay attention to quest text and figure out vague hints based on your knowledge of the worlds lore? Yeah, that was a thing we had before giant glowing arrows directing us to the quest objective NPC standing 5 feet away with a giant glowing icon on his head as well. Those were actually satisfying to solve, I feel baad for anyone that hasn't had the opportunity to experience that.
I remember AC coords to find stuff and guides using the coords. I remember asking in chat and people telling you where to go and what to do. I remember higher levels walk guild members through. I remember websites telling you where to go. Frankly no different than todays just one extra step. A lot of games allow you to make the game harder on yourself...same as the old day of not using guides or the internet...but gaming noobs now say that they can not risk falling behind others do it the hard way.
You're more than welcome to trash them, the graphics weren't as good for sure and they may not have been your cup of tea, but let's at least try and stick to reality.
They sucked because they were so limited. Grind/time sink was the only challenge. Yawn.
I'm sure you can serve whatever your agenda is without resorting to outright BS that anyone who was actually there can see right through.
Check your rose glasses they are fogging up.
Originally posted by kaiser3282 Originally posted by Torgrim It's not about IQ but I do understand what you getting at OP. MMOs today can be translated into lazy fatman couch sitting gameplay. Everything is there for you to do with minimal effort required, you don't have to read the quests, you just follow the arrow or check the blue/green/yellow blob on the map, and interact with mobs that stand still waiting for you to kill them, you don't even need a weapon you can fart em to death, yes they are so easy to kill. Pick up things, no worries even a blind man can see the glowy christmas treen scattered around the blob area. Raids are also a cakewalk, most raids work with spank and tank. Crafting, why even have crafting when it's pretty a after thought and pretty much useless in most MMOs to day. So say goodby to Themepark MMOs and say welcome to Railpark genre, where you are just there for the narrow ride where you can't turn left or right, just follow it to the end and go home and pick up next MMO that is hyped to the heavens.
Worst analogy i have ever read.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
Originally posted by bunnyhopper Originally posted by Loke666 IQ usually means how good you are at math and it is hardly good way to measure how well someone play a MMO. I had a guy in school who sucked so badly at math and hardly could spell his name even, yet he was great at any computer game (amiga at the time) and built a great stereo by stealing parts he found at the junkyard. it Looked really weird and I think he used parts from 6 recievers to make one... I agree that MMOs should be more difficult than they are now, heck that goes for any games. But IQ is not really the issue here.
Devil's advocate but...
There does indeed seem to be something to be said for the fact that in general there seems to be a perceived decline in education in core subjects like maths (certainly here in the UK at least). Whilst at the same time there is also a decline in the perceived "challenge" (not IQ needed might I add, but general difficulty) in social outlets like games.
MMORPG's have never required a high intelligence level let's face it, but once upon a time they did require a bit more patience and a bit more social aptitude.
It's not perceived at all. There have been numerous studies that say it's true in the US. If you have any family members who are teachers, ask to see the tests. Also ask to read the studend's essays. It's embarassing to see the number of high school seniors who still don't know the difference between "they're", "their" and "there" or between "two", "to" and "too". Silly internet slang is making it's way into their school work. I couldn't believe it when I saw a student write "LOL" on a test. Some public school districts in the US no longer require kids to memorize the multiplication tables. Kids are trying to figure out 4 * 7 on their fingers!
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.-- Herman Melville
Originally posted by dave6660
Games are not where you want to educate kids. Games are entertainment products.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by dave6660
I never said they were. I was simply commenting on the overall decline in education and student work.
Originally posted by joeyboots IQ of 50? Wow, I think I'm gonna sign my dog up for a World of Warcraft account now in that case.
It would be far too easy for him.
Currently bored with MMO's.
Originally posted by Velocinox "Please bring back MMOs that required and IQ above 50 to play!" Awesome.
Originally posted by ElderRat Originally posted by joeyboots IQ of 50? Wow, I think I'm gonna sign my dog up for a World of Warcraft account now in that case.
My cat does play WoW. He hit the level cap in 3 months. This is not a joke. Even a cat can cap in WoW.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by dave6660
Games are the best way to educate kids. In fact any method that can educate children where they learn without realising they are learning offers some of the best results for education. Most children start to learn through games and gradually move onto more serious forms simply because it is the best way to educate in a form not resisted.
It is a shame games are becoming less educational and the decline in apparent education levels (reading, writing, maths, logical thinking, critical thinking, social awareness, geographical awareness...the list goes on) is seem more and more as time goes on.
Originally posted by dave6660 Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by dave6660
Wrong. Games are what we should be using to educate kids today. Today kids play video games. Every video game is a problem solving learning tool as every single video game has a problem that the player must solve to beat.
You are learning problem solving everytime you play a video game, its the reason I love video games. I love problem solving, hense why I am in the IT field.
Technology is here to stay folks, the sooner you accept that, the sooner we can move forward and update our education programs to match the reality of the age. You can reach kids better via video games then books today, that is a fact, so why not use video games as learning tools?
Where in the world is Carmen San Diego or whatever it was called.
All games I played growing up that were educational tools. No reason we could not use video games today to teach kids of all ages.
Sooner or Later
Originally posted by TruthXHurts Originally posted by adam_nox one of the bigger myths rears it's ugly head again. old mmo's weren't harder. They were less intuitive, less refined, and generally poorly made, which may have indirectly made them more difficult to play, but you'd only value this if you want to reward stupidity, not eliminate it.
We will see who goes F2P first Ultima Online or WoW. Free to level 20? Sounds like UO is in the lead.
By this logic I don't think it's possible to to determine a winner.
13+ millions subs (peak) versus 250k+ would be a better argument.
And this is coming from a '99 era UO veteran.
As Obi-Wan Kenobi so wisely said -
"You'll find a great many of the truths we cling to depend greatly upon our point of view."
Originally posted by BadSpock Originally posted by Velocinox "Please bring back MMOs that required and IQ above 50 to play!" Awesome.
I saw this thread and that was the first thing I noticed. How sad. But I do think we need to start seeing some smart MMO's. I'm tired of the button mashers (which is even present in TOR and everything else that just recently came out). It's why I think Mount and Blade could be a great MMO with the mouse control sword swings. Would be a BIG change to the MMO combat field.
Actually they can be a great education tool for several things, especially in comparison to most of the current education systems. Not all MMOs, but a decent number of them have quite a bit of min maxing and build planning to do. Theyre pretty handy as an entertaining way for someone to improve their math skills dealing with addition, subtraction, multiplaction, division, dealing with percentages, etc. Games featuring detailed economics like EVE also have quite a bit of math and statistics for becomng succesful traders, not to mention all the number crunching in figuring out your ship & fittings with all the ranges, velocity, etc, etc.
Nothing in MMOs was ever really that hard or required that much intelligence to be able to figure out.
Except for maybe EvE online, that is.
Once you "get it" though, it's really not that hard or complex either. Definitely "the winner" in the MMORPG genre, however.
UO, EQ for example were incredibly simple games with incredibly simple mechanics and systems simply due to the processing and programming limitations of that era.
Puzzles are really the only system/mechanic in MMOs I have ever seen that required you to actually use brain power, but sadly enough the "modern" MMO wouldn't be the same even if it was 100% puzzles because they'd all be on Wiki pages and you bet people would use them often.
These days, you have to purposefully avoid forums and wiki pages and such if you want the "challenge" of figuring things out on your own.
Therefore, as with most things in life, you define your own reality.
No one has ever nor will ever stop you from playing sub-optimally in order to make things more challenging.
There is plenty of "difficult" content to consume in the modern MMO, people seem to forget/not realize though that any "old school" MMO gamer is probably really good at playing video games, and as such their perspective of what is challenging or not is naturally skewed.
What would be challenging to a skilled player could be impossible for 99% of the player base, and what sane developer would spend countless hours and resources creating content only 1% of the population could ever experience and complete?
I mean, you'd have to have an IQ less than 50 to create a game where you spent countless hours and resources creating content only 1% of your playerbase could ever experience and complete.
If you want a game with at least "some thinking" involved try out DDO & play as a Mechanic Rogue, either that or perhaps look into TSW - which is promising insofar as offering up a bit of puzzle-solving malarkey to go with it's regular MMO tropes.
well, people who have in IQ above 50 are able to find the games they are looking for...
Originally posted by BadSpock Puzzles are really the only system/mechanic in MMOs I have ever seen that required you to actually use brain power, but sadly enough the "modern" MMO wouldn't be the same even if it was 100% puzzles because they'd all be on Wiki pages and you bet people would use them often.
Unfortunately youre right about that when it comes to MMOs. Would be nice to see some come along with some nice randomly generated puzzles that were difficult t have guides for forcing people to figure them out on there own. I grew up on that shit with older console rpgs & the puzzles some of them had. Its what got me hooked on them (along with the stories). The things i picked up solving all those puzles back then improved my ability to solve a lot of things nowadays that leave my girlfriend and family scrathing their heads and going "how the hell did you think of that" because they dont look at certain things the same way since they never did all that puzzle & problem solving.
The thing is, even if the argument that 'old games' were not that difficult is true, it still doesn't change the fact that gamers today are stupid irrespective of how difficult a game is. All that has changed is during the 'old days' these stupid peole just didn't play games.
So games haven't changed, Intelligent/normal gamers haven't changed but Stupid/low IQ gamers have increased (hugely). Basically back in the day there were say 500,000 gamers who had to be reasonably smart to actually get a computer to work. there are still probablly 500,000 smart gamers, they are just diluted in a pool of 15,000,000 people who really shouldn't be let near a computer.
If I remember correctly Forest Gump had an IQ around 50 or 60.
I bet he would own in an MMO. Especially the late 2011 ones
Originally posted by jdnewell If I remember correctly Forest Gump had an IQ around 50 or 60. I bet he would own in an MMO. Especially the late 2011 ones
No Forest Gump was above the line just not by much.
Quick google search said the book stated it was 76 which is just a hair over the mentally handicapped line.
He was just simple.
Games were not only more difficult in the past but the biggest,most important aspect was the sense of a respectful community. If you behaved like so many do in games today back in the early days, you were outcasted by the community. Real guilds and communities thrived; there was a sense of ownership and neighborhood so to speak.
Plain and simple gamers were different.Gaming was not an every man/woman (s) hobby. There was a special community that was passionate about gaming. This was already dying in the wake of WOW coming. WOW just solidified the process. Even finding a decent guild today if you can requires putting up with TS drama. There is always drama....
Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box. ~ Italian proverb
Originally posted by Thorbrand That is all I have to ask for, we need challenge back and puzzles with content that actually requires the use of a brain the play some of the content. Where did MMOs turn into action adventures. I don't care if they make these games but taking over the title MMO, while no longer making MMOs is getting to me. There hasn't been a MMO made in the last 8yrs just all action adventures with online gameplay. Yes, we need games like EQ1 or even Vanilla WOW back not this crap they give us today!
uhm has anyone shown you the puzzles in GW2?