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Name one thing you miss from the "original" MMOs...

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  • OberanMiMOberanMiM Chicago, ILPosts: 236Member

    Originally posted by Axehilt

    The pre-WOW MMORPGs I played were indeed dull.  DAOC, AO, AC, AC2, and probably a few eluding memory at the moment.

    Non-MMORPG games released in the same timeframe provided more fun and required less time than those MMORPGs.

    So by comparison, MMORPGs were indeed dreadfully dull.

    You mean I have to walk 30 minutes to get to a farming spot where I repetitively use the same abilities to grind XP?  Maybe slap on an additional 30 minutes to find a group to do the same thing?

    The list of games during that timeframe which provided more fun in less time was immense (and this is only a fractional list):



    • Starcraft


    • AOE2


    • Tribes


    • Civ2


    • Max Payne


    • Metal Gear Solid 2


    • War3


    • NOLF 1/2


    • GalCiv


    • Diablo 2


    • C&C:Red Alert 2


    • Alice

    I really wanted to like MMORPGs (or I wouldn't have tried the 6-7 that I did before WOW), but until WOW they never provided the baseline bang for the buck necessary to be worth my time.

     

    Games prior to WoW had individualism, they each had their different tastes (EQ, UO, DAOC, AO etc). Sure some people found them dull. But ironically after the continuous WoW reskins of the past 5-6 years and everyone trying to emulate that. I find that individuality amoung the older games beats playing basically the same game over and over again but in a different skin (and even games that started out different taking on that likeness). Sure WoW was decent at the start, but when i realized what direction they were going i saw the writing on the wall. If anything that stagnation has made them even more dull and far less memorable.

    I prefer a good xp group where i get to talk with and hang out with friends over the wait for instance queue. The only talking that happens in instances nowadays i the rage of the immature gamers that complain that other people that think they know how to play the game better than everyone else (ironically if we found a poor player in games like EQ we accepted them and tried to help them improve their gameplay and not belittle them)

    Besides its not that older games like EQ required you to group, it was much more efficient but hardly required (even as a cleric I knew many locations I could level on some light blue mobs (for instance lower guk undead side on pre kunark or the spectors outside of the fear entrance)

  • CheriseCherise Cincinnati, OHPosts: 232Member

    Originally posted by BartDaCat

    Originally posted by Goatgod76


    Originally posted by Valkaern

    Primarily due to GMs being a presence on our server, amongst earlier game design approaches: The feeling that almost anything was possible (to an extent) and my path wasn't so strictly pre-mapped. Today it seems most games clearly outline for you exactly what you'll be doing, where you'll be and what you'll be wearing next week, a month from now or any time down the road taking away any sense of surprise and mystery. There's no question after having played both linear and open ended games, I far prefer being able to choose my own path and carve my own unique trail to max level, and not knowing exactly what I'll be doing at any time in the future apart from perhaps one or two major long term goals.

    Now you can see the carefully planned gear laid out for you on a token merchant in a totally plotted out linear zone that leads to zone #2 that you'll get to as you safely follow the path. Along with the carefully planned out spreadsheet progression, the (seemingly) smaller world sizes of recent years don't do much to convince me that there's any element of the unknown out there worth looking forward to either. It's not all just down to the availability of online databases either, as database sites such as Alakazam (Zam now I guess?) have existed for a very long time now, most recent games seem to present pre-explored maps as well as max level gear you can inspect on a merchant from level 1 in game anyway.

    When what could be a vast unkown expanse of fantasy/sci-fi zones is instead stripped down and displayed openly on the table for me from the start, and there's no chance of luckily stumbling onto the unknown landscape/loot/mechanic/adventure I personally lose interest in plodding through it. What's the point? I see new movies because I haven't seen them, I read new books because I haven't read them, I used to be able to play through online fantasy worlds and watch my own story unfold as I bumbled my way around, so why would I now want a clearly detailed itinerary from day 1?

    Once predictability is assured the wonder is gone. There is no 'Who knows what will happen when we next head out into the game world' only 'We'll complete these 7 tasks in zone A so we can get to zone B so we can purchase the zone B gear from the loot merchant, Oh boy, and then we'll safely advance to zone C to get on with our tasks safe in the knowledge that there will be no surprises'.

     

    +1

    Make that a +2.

    +3 and well said.

  • GardavsshadeGardavsshade Cedar Springs, MIPosts: 762Member Uncommon


    " Name one thing you miss from the "original" MMOs... "

     

    Developers that were Players as well as Devs... and most importantly.... Devs that were IN CHARGE of their own MMOs, Devs that had the final say on exactly what content and features went into their MMOs.

    Even with all the bad business decisions and the meltdowns.

  • karat76karat76 Wellston, OHPosts: 1,000Member Uncommon

     I miss the community of games like DAoC and more of  games feeling like a virtual world not a quest bub hop scotch game. I hate the end game raid or die for epics style games.

  • Goatgod76Goatgod76 Stow, OHPosts: 1,214Member

    Originally posted by karat76

     I miss the community of games like DAoC and more of  games feeling like a virtual world not a quest bub hop scotch game. I hate the end game raid or die for epics style games.

    Yep. Read my post at the very top of the page before this one about my Rift experience earlier today. It has been like that in EVERY post-WoW MMO I have tried. Sad sad times.

  • MalevianMalevian Lincoln, NEPosts: 48Member

    Cooperative gameplay.  

    Nonforced PvP.  

    Games without pvp at all.

    Actual player communities as opposed to mindless grinding for max everything.

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,743Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by OberanMiM

    Games prior to WoW had individualism, they each had their different tastes (EQ, UO, DAOC, AO etc). Sure some people found them dull. But ironically after the continuous WoW reskins of the past 5-6 years and everyone trying to emulate that. I find that individuality amoung the older games beats playing basically the same game over and over again but in a different skin (and even games that started out different taking on that likeness). Sure WoW was decent at the start, but when i realized what direction they were going i saw the writing on the wall. If anything that stagnation has made them even more dull and far less memorable.

    I prefer a good xp group where i get to talk with and hang out with friends over the wait for instance queue. The only talking that happens in instances nowadays i the rage of the immature gamers that complain that other people that think they know how to play the game better than everyone else (ironically if we found a poor player in games like EQ we accepted them and tried to help them improve their gameplay and not belittle them)

    Besides its not that older games like EQ required you to group, it was much more efficient but hardly required (even as a cleric I knew many locations I could level on some light blue mobs (for instance lower guk undead side on pre kunark or the spectors outside of the fear entrance)

    WOW had individualism too.  It's just that its individual traits were so desireable that people copied it.  Is it really WOW's fault that its traits were so desirable compared to early MMORPGs that people copied it closer than previous incarnations of the genre were copied?

    Many players playing WOW do exactly what you describe: they're in a guild with mature friends they like, talking, socializing, and playing WOW in what's essentially an XP group (except now it's a raid group.) Can you optionally solo-level or queue for dungeons apart from this sort of gameplay?  Absolutely.  It's your choice of what type of gameplay you want!

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • joeybootsjoeyboots Virginia Beach, VAPosts: 636Member

    The wonder and the freshness of the then-new concept. Oops, That was two!

    image

  • FrostWyrmFrostWyrm Tempe, AZPosts: 1,036Member

    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Originally posted by OberanMiM

    Games prior to WoW had individualism, they each had their different tastes (EQ, UO, DAOC, AO etc). Sure some people found them dull. But ironically after the continuous WoW reskins of the past 5-6 years and everyone trying to emulate that. I find that individuality amoung the older games beats playing basically the same game over and over again but in a different skin (and even games that started out different taking on that likeness). Sure WoW was decent at the start, but when i realized what direction they were going i saw the writing on the wall. If anything that stagnation has made them even more dull and far less memorable.

    I prefer a good xp group where i get to talk with and hang out with friends over the wait for instance queue. The only talking that happens in instances nowadays i the rage of the immature gamers that complain that other people that think they know how to play the game better than everyone else (ironically if we found a poor player in games like EQ we accepted them and tried to help them improve their gameplay and not belittle them)

    Besides its not that older games like EQ required you to group, it was much more efficient but hardly required (even as a cleric I knew many locations I could level on some light blue mobs (for instance lower guk undead side on pre kunark or the spectors outside of the fear entrance)

    WOW had individualism too.  It's just that its individual traits were so desireable that people copied it.  Is it really WOW's fault that its traits were so desirable compared to early MMORPGs that people copied it closer than previous incarnations of the genre were copied?

    Many players playing WOW do exactly what you describe: they're in a guild with mature friends they like, talking, socializing, and playing WOW in what's essentially an XP group (except now it's a raid group.) Can you optionally solo-level or queue for dungeons apart from this sort of gameplay?  Absolutely.  It's your choice of what type of gameplay you want!

    Why are you still here in this thread trying to convince people what to like and not to like? We get it that you like WoW, no one is saying you're wrong for it. Please grow up and learn that not everyone wants what you want in an MMO.

  • SysFailSysFail LondonPosts: 375Member

    I miss having to actually use my brain. 

  • Pratt2112Pratt2112 Posts: 1,536Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Vannor

    The unknown. EVERYTHING is on websites now, usually even before a game is properly released, from NPC locations to complete loot lists. There is no discovery or surprise anymore.. the temptation and ease of using the online info is too great.

    Nevermind the temptation to use them, the outright requirement to if you want to be accepted to any dungeon, raid or quest group run. Somewhere along the line, people became uninterested in learning how to defeat those challenges, and became solely interested in beating them on the first try, at the expense of getting unduly pissed-off in some cases if they didn't.

    People have become so damn impatient and intolerant of not succeeding at something on the first or second try it's amazing. I remember people in WoW calling an instance a grind because we died and had to run back to where we wiped and continue. He was asked (by me) what he meant by a grind, since we'd only been in there 15 minutes and had been making regular progress up to that point that we died. His response was "Because we have to do all this running over and over again every time we die just to finish the instance. It's taking too long". I reminded him that it had only been about 15 minutes, we'd only died once so far and we were already half way through the instance at that point. He said, and I quote, "STFU WoW fanboy". Right.

    To segueway into one of the many things I miss from older MMOs, that would be the ability to play with others who actually welcomed the challenge of figuring out a tough battle, quest or dungeon and working together to get through it. People who didn't research every map, encounter and combat tactic prior to playing through it, keeping the web page open in a browser window so they could alt-tab back and forth to be walked through it. People who didn't throw a hissy-fit if they died even once, or didn't get the win on the first try, and started insulting everyone in the group (except themselves, of course) for being lousy players who didn't know what they were doing, and/or rage-quitting the group. It was especially ironic when it was that person who caused the wipe in the first place.

    I knew the genre had turned the corner and entered a bad state when people started saying on forums "I don't play games to be challenged. I play them to have fun, relax and turn my brain off after a hard day at work".  Basically, they want games to be the equivalent of a mindless action movie. They don't want to be actively engaged, they just want to be entertained. So typical of Western society these days, though, isn't it.

  • Pratt2112Pratt2112 Posts: 1,536Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Alasti

    Another thing I miss was the rarity of good items in the game....What I mean is...Not EVERYONE was able to get EVERY item in the game like they are now....

    Yep. Rare actually meant Rare.

    That goes a lot to player menatlity, though. Once upon a time, many players were satisfied with enjoying the experience of playing the game, being in the world and hanging out with cool people doing fun stuff. Now, most people seem to only care about how much cool loot are they getting, how many levels they can get, and were they able to do all of it by themselves in less than an hour.

    Calling most things Rare anymore is pointless. It should be considered common.

    You'll always know when there's something truly rare in the game, 'cause those people will be raging on the forums about how unfair it is that they have to put in time more and effort than they want (e.g. more than 20 minutes or so) to acquire it.

  • IndolIndol O''Fallon, MOPosts: 189Member

    Originally posted by TangentPoint

    Originally posted by Vannor

    The unknown. EVERYTHING is on websites now, usually even before a game is properly released, from NPC locations to complete loot lists. There is no discovery or surprise anymore.. the temptation and ease of using the online info is too great.

    Nevermind the temptation to use them, the outright requirement to if you want to be accepted to any dungeon, raid or quest group run. Somewhere along the line, people became uninterested in learning how to defeat those challenges, and became solely interested in beating them on the first try, at the expense of getting unduly pissed-off in some cases if they didn't.

    People have become so damn impatient and intolerant of not succeeding at something on the first or second try it's amazing. I remember people in WoW calling an instance a grind because we died and had to run back to where we wiped and continue. He was asked (by me) what he meant by a grind, since we'd only been in there 15 minutes and had been making regular progress up to that point that we died. His response was "Because we have to do all this running over and over again every time we die just to finish the instance. It's taking too long". I reminded him that it had only been about 15 minutes, we'd only died once so far and we were already half way through the instance at that point. He said, and I quote, "STFU WoW fanboy". Right.

    To segueway into one of the many things I miss from older MMOs, that would be the ability to play with others who actually welcomed the challenge of figuring out a tough battle, quest or dungeon and working together to get through it. People who didn't research every map, encounter and combat tactic prior to playing through it, keeping the web page open in a browser window so they could alt-tab back and forth to be walked through it. People who didn't throw a hissy-fit if they died even once, or didn't get the win on the first try, and started insulting everyone in the group (except themselves, of course) for being lousy players who didn't know what they were doing, and/or rage-quitting the group. It was especially ironic when it was that person who caused the wipe in the first place.

    I knew the genre had turned the corner and entered a bad state when people started saying on forums "I don't play games to be challenged. I play them to have fun, relax and turn my brain off after a hard day at work".  Basically, they want games to be the equivalent of a mindless action movie. They don't want to be actively engaged, they just want to be entertained. So typical of Western society these days, though, isn't it.

    You sir, know what you're talking about.

     

    It is very true that people have stopped even wanting to experience MMO's. They just want to win at all times and couldn't care less about the details. Just as long as they're 'winning'. It's like going on a hike through a beautiful forest and never bothering to look at it.

     

    We have lost perspective and clog our gametime with superficiality that we don't actually care about or enjoy. Countless times i've talked to people that suddenly came to the realization that they haven't actually enjoyed the game they've been playing for years and have just been playing based on a built up compulsion to compete with everyone else.

     

    It's so easy to slip into the herd mentality in MMO's to the point that you're so crammed in with the rest of the cattle that you've forgotten what the world even looks like. You just see other cows.

  • Superduper69Superduper69 Aurora, INPosts: 363Member

    I miss nothing from old games like EQ, AO and UO..nothing at all. I am quite happy with what i am playign right now and upcoming titles like TSW and AA.

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,743Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by FrostWyrm

    Originally posted by Axehilt


    Originally posted by OberanMiM

    Games prior to WoW had individualism, they each had their different tastes (EQ, UO, DAOC, AO etc). Sure some people found them dull. But ironically after the continuous WoW reskins of the past 5-6 years and everyone trying to emulate that. I find that individuality amoung the older games beats playing basically the same game over and over again but in a different skin (and even games that started out different taking on that likeness). Sure WoW was decent at the start, but when i realized what direction they were going i saw the writing on the wall. If anything that stagnation has made them even more dull and far less memorable.

    I prefer a good xp group where i get to talk with and hang out with friends over the wait for instance queue. The only talking that happens in instances nowadays i the rage of the immature gamers that complain that other people that think they know how to play the game better than everyone else (ironically if we found a poor player in games like EQ we accepted them and tried to help them improve their gameplay and not belittle them)

    Besides its not that older games like EQ required you to group, it was much more efficient but hardly required (even as a cleric I knew many locations I could level on some light blue mobs (for instance lower guk undead side on pre kunark or the spectors outside of the fear entrance)

    WOW had individualism too.  It's just that its individual traits were so desireable that people copied it.  Is it really WOW's fault that its traits were so desirable compared to early MMORPGs that people copied it closer than previous incarnations of the genre were copied?

    Many players playing WOW do exactly what you describe: they're in a guild with mature friends they like, talking, socializing, and playing WOW in what's essentially an XP group (except now it's a raid group.) Can you optionally solo-level or queue for dungeons apart from this sort of gameplay?  Absolutely.  It's your choice of what type of gameplay you want!

    Why are you still here in this thread trying to convince people what to like and not to like? We get it that you like WoW, no one is saying you're wrong for it. Please grow up and learn that not everyone wants what you want in an MMO.

    Pointing out the traits of WOW is hardly "convincing them what to like". If people miss things that exist in current MMORPGs, it's fair to point out that it's them that changed, not the games.

    If anyone's being immature, it's you for getting all bent out of shape about it.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • KellerKeller UtrechtPosts: 254Member

    Community

    even in WoW there was a community. People hanging out in Ironforge, rallying outside Tarren Mill, gathering for receiving a buff from returning Onyxia's Head, etc. Horde putting cheap materials on Booty Bay AH, so Alliance could unlock AQ aswell. Other games had great communities too. Nowadays I feel lonely in all recent launched mmos.

  • TruthXHurtsTruthXHurts El Do, KSPosts: 1,555Member

    In what other genre is making an exact copy of a game acceptable?

    "I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by OberanMiM

    I prefer a good xp group where i get to talk with and hang out with friends over the wait for instance queue. The only talking that happens in instances nowadays i the rage of the immature gamers that complain that other people that think they know how to play the game better than everyone else (ironically if we found a poor player in games like EQ we accepted them and tried to help them improve their gameplay and not belittle them)

     

    I prefer to queue for a random group so I don't have to spam endlessly "lfg" in the channels. I go into dungeons to kill stuff and it is fine with me if the only talk is about asking a player not to step into the fire.

    If i want to chat, i will chat with my guildies or friends.

    You state your preferences. I state mine. See .. differences in opinions on the internet. How exciting!

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by ColumbiaTrue

    Unique Player Characters

    Today's MMORPGs literally have players wear the same gear as everyone else. In Everquest, you would have different combinations of gear and even use different gear for different encounters or dungeons.

     

    Today, everyone wearing the same Tier 1, Tier 2, Tier X gear. It is ridiculous, insipid, and creatively lazy.

     

    Everyone looks the same. No individualism. No uniqueness. Surprised people pay money for that.

    hmm ... what game are you playing?

    Many games have systems that change the look of gear so you can customize it. May be you should do LESS ranting, and actually go look at game features before settling into a game that does not allow you to do that.

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    Originally posted by Indol


    Originally posted by TangentPoint


    Originally posted by Vannor


    The unknown. EVERYTHING is on websites now, usually even before a game is properly released, from NPC locations to complete loot lists. There is no discovery or surprise anymore.. the temptation and ease of using the online info is too great.

    Nevermind the temptation to use them, the outright requirement to if you want to be accepted to any dungeon, raid or quest group run. Somewhere along the line, people became uninterested in learning how to defeat those challenges, and became solely interested in beating them on the first try, at the expense of getting unduly pissed-off in some cases if they didn't.

    People have become so damn impatient and intolerant of not succeeding at something on the first or second try it's amazing. I remember people in WoW calling an instance a grind because we died and had to run back to where we wiped and continue. He was asked (by me) what he meant by a grind, since we'd only been in there 15 minutes and had been making regular progress up to that point that we died. His response was "Because we have to do all this running over and over again every time we die just to finish the instance. It's taking too long". I reminded him that it had only been about 15 minutes, we'd only died once so far and we were already half way through the instance at that point. He said, and I quote, "STFU WoW fanboy". Right.

    To segueway into one of the many things I miss from older MMOs, that would be the ability to play with others who actually welcomed the challenge of figuring out a tough battle, quest or dungeon and working together to get through it. People who didn't research every map, encounter and combat tactic prior to playing through it, keeping the web page open in a browser window so they could alt-tab back and forth to be walked through it. People who didn't throw a hissy-fit if they died even once, or didn't get the win on the first try, and started insulting everyone in the group (except themselves, of course) for being lousy players who didn't know what they were doing, and/or rage-quitting the group. It was especially ironic when it was that person who caused the wipe in the first place.

    I knew the genre had turned the corner and entered a bad state when people started saying on forums "I don't play games to be challenged. I play them to have fun, relax and turn my brain off after a hard day at work".  Basically, they want games to be the equivalent of a mindless action movie. They don't want to be actively engaged, they just want to be entertained. So typical of Western society these days, though, isn't it.

    You sir, know what you're talking about.

     

    It is very true that people have stopped even wanting to experiencing MMO's. They just want to win at all times and couldn't care less about the details. Just as long as they're 'winning'. It's like going on a hike through a beautiful forest and never bothering to look at it.

     

    We have lost perspective and clog our gametime with superficiality that we don't actually care about or enjoy. Countless times i've talked to people that suddenly came to the realization that they haven't actually enjoyed the game they've been playing for years and have just been playing based on a built up compulsion to compete with everyone else.

     

    It's so easy to slip into the herd mentality in MMO's to the point that you're so crammed in with the rest of the cattle that you've forgotten what the world even looks like. You just see other cows.

     

    Yes, It's easy to hide behind the cloak of "fun" anything remotely challenging or god help us requiring you to put in an effort to get the reward is dismissed as a "timesink" or you are told games are about having "fun". Well for me fun is getting the reward after the effort, not having shiny buttons handed out every 5 minutes regardless of what thought you have needed to put in. MMO's now cater in the main for the "hard day at work" crowd, who in the past watched mindless TV that required no effort, now with MMO's everyone gets the prize, no one goes home empty handed, and fools think themselves kings.
  • ColumbiaTrueColumbiaTrue BogotaPosts: 47Member

    Merely customizing the appearance---different colors and what have you---is not the "unique" player character concept that I referred to by any means.

     

     

    I meant unique when I stated "unique," not merely slightly different. Completely different gear, history, items, abilities, spells, attributes - everything. 

     

     

    The physical appearance of the character is one small aspect of unique player characters.

     

    "The truth is EA lies." - Youtube User

    Sim City. Everquest. Civilization. Dungeon Keeper. Vampire: The Masquerade. These are the games that I love and cherish.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by RefMinor

    Yes, It's easy to hide behind the cloak of "fun" anything remotely challenging or god help us requiring you to put in an effort to get the reward is dismissed as a "timesink" or you are told games are about having "fun". Well for me fun is getting the reward after the effort, not having shiny buttons handed out every 5 minutes regardless of what thought you have needed to put in. MMO's now cater in the main for the "hard day at work" crowd, who in the past watched mindless TV that required no effort, now with MMO's everyone gets the prize, no one goes home empty handed, and fools think themselves kings.

    Well .. to ME .. fun, challenges and timesink are very distinct concepts.

    Fun - interestig mechanics, interesting story, good combat .. this does NOT have to be difficult. For example, mowing down hordes and hordes of mobs is fun in Diablo .. unless you are doing a boss fight .. it is not that difficult.

    Challenge - something that is difficult to do, and only a few % of players have done it. Downing a raid boss in hard mode is challengine. You either can do it in 15 min, or you keep wiping for weeks. This *can* add to the fun, but fun is NOT mutually exclusive to it.

    Timesink - dead-time that is not conducive to fun or a challenge. Long travel time to places that have been visited before (first time is fun) is an example. Harsh death penatly that makes you re-level is another. A raid encounter can be a challenge with ZERO death penalty. People can stuck on hard mode raid bosses for MONTHS. A game does NOT need time-sink to be challenging.

    And in this busy world, a game should NOT require players to devote hours and hours. 2 hours is my max. I prefer 30-45 play session. It can be a DIFFICULT encounter that i can fail .. but if i succeed, it better takes not a long time. 

  • TruthXHurtsTruthXHurts El Do, KSPosts: 1,555Member

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by RefMinor

    Yes, It's easy to hide behind the cloak of "fun" anything remotely challenging or god help us requiring you to put in an effort to get the reward is dismissed as a "timesink" or you are told games are about having "fun". Well for me fun is getting the reward after the effort, not having shiny buttons handed out every 5 minutes regardless of what thought you have needed to put in. MMO's now cater in the main for the "hard day at work" crowd, who in the past watched mindless TV that required no effort, now with MMO's everyone gets the prize, no one goes home empty handed, and fools think themselves kings.

    Well .. to ME .. fun, challenges and timesink are very distinct concepts.

    Fun - interestig mechanics, interesting story, good combat .. this does NOT have to be difficult. For example, mowing down hordes and hordes of mobs is fun in Diablo .. unless you are doing a boss fight .. it is not that difficult.

    Challenge - something that is difficult to do, and only a few % of players have done it. Downing a raid boss in hard mode is challengine. You either can do it in 15 min, or you keep wiping for weeks. This *can* add to the fun, but fun is NOT mutually exclusive to it.

    Timesink - dead-time that is not conducive to fun or a challenge. Long travel time to places that have been visited before (first time is fun) is an example. Harsh death penatly that makes you re-level is another. A raid encounter can be a challenge with ZERO death penalty. People can stuck on hard mode raid bosses for MONTHS. A game does NOT need time-sink to be challenging.

    And in this busy world, a game should NOT require players to devote hours and hours. 2 hours is my max. I prefer 30-45 play session. It can be a DIFFICULT encounter that i can fail .. but if i succeed, it better takes not a long time. 

    With the miracles of modern technology our world is less"busy" than ever before. 

    "I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"

  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member

    Originally posted by TruthXHurts

    Originally posted by nariusseldon


    Originally posted by RefMinor

    Yes, It's easy to hide behind the cloak of "fun" anything remotely challenging or god help us requiring you to put in an effort to get the reward is dismissed as a "timesink" or you are told games are about having "fun". Well for me fun is getting the reward after the effort, not having shiny buttons handed out every 5 minutes regardless of what thought you have needed to put in. MMO's now cater in the main for the "hard day at work" crowd, who in the past watched mindless TV that required no effort, now with MMO's everyone gets the prize, no one goes home empty handed, and fools think themselves kings.

    Well .. to ME .. fun, challenges and timesink are very distinct concepts.

    Fun - interestig mechanics, interesting story, good combat .. this does NOT have to be difficult. For example, mowing down hordes and hordes of mobs is fun in Diablo .. unless you are doing a boss fight .. it is not that difficult.

    Challenge - something that is difficult to do, and only a few % of players have done it. Downing a raid boss in hard mode is challengine. You either can do it in 15 min, or you keep wiping for weeks. This *can* add to the fun, but fun is NOT mutually exclusive to it.

    Timesink - dead-time that is not conducive to fun or a challenge. Long travel time to places that have been visited before (first time is fun) is an example. Harsh death penatly that makes you re-level is another. A raid encounter can be a challenge with ZERO death penalty. People can stuck on hard mode raid bosses for MONTHS. A game does NOT need time-sink to be challenging.

    And in this busy world, a game should NOT require players to devote hours and hours. 2 hours is my max. I prefer 30-45 play session. It can be a DIFFICULT encounter that i can fail .. but if i succeed, it better takes not a long time. 

    With the miracles of modern technology our world is less"busy" than ever before. 



    The trap of technology is that when you can get more done in the same time you make more money. Which seems good. Except then the producers just raise the prices. So all that extra money you thought you had is sucked into the cycle very quickly.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by TruthXHurts

     

    With the miracles of modern technology our world is less"busy" than ever before. 

    No. There are more to do. MMO is just ONE hobby. There are plenty of other things to do, even if we are not talking about work.

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