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Flaw with Skills and Weapons?

TacomeatTacomeat Cityville, CTPosts: 7Member

 


Ok I’m just trying to get some clarfication and see if I’m comprehending this correctly, because if what I see in the skill tool is all that is offered in terms of weapon skills, then I will seriously be contemplating whether I purchase this game or not.  


 


If the following is false you don't have to read the below past the line and I’ll eat my hat and humbly ask for a lecture and links:  Skills are assigned by weapons.  There is no bigger pool of offensive skills that can be used with all weapons (like utility skills) meaning that the skills that are pre-assigned to the weapons you wield will be what you have to play with for the rest of the game excluding utility/elite skills.


 


Ex:  In wow the weapon you use doesn’t matter, you get your skills from a trainer and they remain the same.  But in Gw2, your skills are determined by your weapon forcing you to possibly play say with swords when that person may actually want to play with axes (me). 



 


I noticed on the skills tool and Totalhalibut’s warrior video, that each weapon does something the other weapons cannot or are better at. 


 


Ex:  Swords are obviously a bleeding type weapon.  Sever artery (1 slot), Impale (offhand 4th slot), Riposte (5th slot).  3 of the 5 skills you “have to use” are for bleeding.  “If you wanna make guys bleed, then this is the way to do so.—Totalbiscuit" 



 


 


If the above is true, I'll just have to chalk it up as a valid negative and adapt.  


 

I think where he's coming from, is in some games where weapons are mostly just stat sticks, you get to choose your weapon for it's aesthetics quite a bit more than you will in a system like w/ GW2.

For example, if you like some of the skills a certain weapon has (it's playstyle), but you don't like the look of swinging that weapon, you are kinda screwed.

For example, there are certain weapons I will probably not use as much when I make my warrior, because I don't like the look of them, even if their playstyle seems interesting. Now, lucky for me I actually enjoy playing different playstyles quite frequently, so it's not as much of an issue; but if someone has a playstyle that fit's dual axes, but they like the look of a warrior w/ 2 swords, or a sword & shield, then they are kinda SOL.

Again, it's kind of a minor issue for most people, and is almost purely an aesthetics issue, but it is still a con to the system put in place. Personally I think the pros far outway the cons, but for some that may not be the case.



 


This post sums up what I'm getting at.  I also hope in the future that weapons get more options to choose from than just what they have now in an expansion or something.  I like having options, and I hate being told what to wield. That was all really...and yes I quite frankly did want to chop down a forest and stab someone with a hammer... 


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Point is you have to choose a weapon based on its skills, not on what you actually want to fight with which imo sucks. 


 


My dilemma: (Warrior) I want to go into pvp with dual axes because I love axes, but the dual axes don't have enough mobility compared to the greatsword with 2 mobility skills plus the utility skill Bull’s Charge equaling 3 gap closers vs 1 gap closer with Bull’s Charge with dual axes.  So if I don’t pick the greatsword, then I can’t be as mobile as I wish to be which means if I decided to play the way I wanted anyway, I would be kited to death (depending on if my opponents has more than one gap opener or knock backs and other variables like terrain).


 


So in order to play the way you want, you have to be lucky and hope the skills that are assigned to the weapons are the ones you like and want to work with. 


 


The argument of switching:  “You can have 2 weapons at a time and switch between them during combat.” Doesn’t change the fact that I am being forced or rather I “have” to bring along that weapon as my choice if I want to do what I want to do…which actually defeats the purpose of this action because if I bring the weapon that has the skills I need but don’t particularly want to use, I give up my second weapon slot which I intended for another weapon,  (Again I haven't read anywhere yet that you can carry as many weapons as you wish, you just have to equip 2 and only 2 in-combat weapons so if that's the case that relieves me a bit)


 


Other gripes: 


 


Why the hell are there no 2h Axes!?  If they don’t add them in by the next expansion I’m going game developer hunting with a battleaxe!


 


I’m a little annoyed that the amount of skills you have at your disposal seems small and limiting.  I haven' t played Gw but I read somewhere that they have something like 1000 skills to pick and choose from which sounds like oodles of fun.  I assumed the same for GW2 but the skill choices, according to the skill tool, looks very limiting.  


 


Looking at the skills in total sure you have a lot, but they are actually situational and divided up, under water skills can’t be used on land vise versa, downed skills obviously only available when downed…well you get the point. 

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Comments

  • jondifooljondifool cphPosts: 1,114Member

    Originally posted by Tacomeat

     


    Point is you have to choose a weapon based on its skills, not on what you actually want to fight with which imo sucks. 


     

     You are right. you choose the weapon you play with based on what its skills do. It may suck for you, but what it gives to the game, most people here are really looking forward to.

    read how to create a succesfull mmo before posting about GW2. And read tao of ArenaNet before talking about innovation in GW2

  • DJJazzyDJJazzy louisville, COPosts: 2,053Member

    What you view as a flaw, a lot of others (like me) view as a great feature.

  • TacomeatTacomeat Cityville, CTPosts: 7Member

    Well that's just perfect.  I'll still buy it because this game is to good to pass up.  Maybe I'll just get used to it as I play through.  

  • style360style360 CopenhagenPosts: 70Member

    Don't give up all hope yet though! :p

     

    There will be traits also, which you can use to customize the different weapons into doing what you want, and there's a lot of them.

    http://www.gw2tools.com/calc/

    These are not all the traits, Arenanet has said that they plan to introduce about 3 more for each trait-line before release. :)

     

    Also, you can carry as many weapons as you like, but as long as you're in combat you can only swap between your two equipped weapons. As soon as you get out of combat, you can swap any weapons in your inventory though. Hope that clears some things up for you. :)

     

    EDIT: For example, there's a trait for increased move speed while holding a melee weapon. And remember, you can have a Warhorn in your offhand for the mobility skills it gives and then switch to 2 axes when you get in melee range. Axes do have some cripple to make it harder for opponents to move away.

  • DiovidiusDiovidius GoudaPosts: 1,025Member

    I wonder... do you also complain that Warriors do not use magic? Do you also complain that Guardians can not use stealth?

    On a more serious note, does it make sense to use the same abilities with different weapons? Of course not. Realisitically different weapons are used in vastly different ways. The game reflects that. So yes, you will have to make a choice between playstyle and aesthetics. Although there will be a lot of different weapon skins of course.

  • bookworm438bookworm438 Detroit, MIPosts: 647Member

    I think we have gone over this hundreds of times already.

    Yes, your first 5 skill slots are determined by your weapon. You are going to need to know what every weapon does, and what's best for the certain situation. In many ways I like this a lot better than the uselessness of weapons in other games (other than for certain stats). If you buy the game, you're just going to have to get over the fact that you can't just play with any weapon you want. (Well, if you're skilled you potentially could. But those who are skilled with multiple weapons will be much, much more effective than you)

    Your last 5 skill slots are picked by you. You bring 3 utility, a heal, and an elite skill of your choice.

    Then you have the trait system which can modify skills to basically do something completely different.

     

    If you don't like this idea in the game, well then I would like to direct you towards the many other games. GW2 will not change a fundamental part of it's design just because some people might not like it. It's not fundamentally flawed, it's smart in many ways. No longer will people be completely useless just because they didn't know how to pick proper skills. You'll at least always be able to contribute something. The system gradually grows more complex, with the introduction of your utility skills and traits.

    Again, might I direct you to all the other games out there. Nobody ever said you have to buy GW2. If you really want to play GW2, then you're just going to have to adapt to the new system. Change isn't a bad thing.

     

    As for the amount of skills: This was done on purpose, and it's working as intended. Really in GW1, only a handful out of those 1000s of skills were effective. Some of them were even duplicates, the exact same skill but with a different name. As a result of having 1000s of skills, GW1 became extremely difficult to balance. This time, they are going for quality over quantity. You really have more than you think you do. With traits being able to modify skills, your profession specific skills, skill having different effects depending on whether it's allies or enemies and class combos, Anet found a way to maintain diversity among skills, without the skill system being overly complex like the GW1. This is what they meant by the "emergent complexities" with their skills. Complexity is gradually introduced into the skill system, not just thrown at you. Easy to get into, with a very high skill cap.

  • TacomeatTacomeat Cityville, CTPosts: 7Member

    That is uplifting news.  The game is still in (closed?) beta still so I suppose anything could happen.

  • starstar Seattle, WAPosts: 1,101Member
    It is in beta, but this is a feature that will never change. It's a core part of the combat mechanics, and the devs have outlined in many blog posts and articles why they decided to go this route.

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  • TacomeatTacomeat Cityville, CTPosts: 7Member

    Yes I'm very picky with my weapons.  In most games I gravitate to axes...but I'll just have to adapt...of course I'm still wondering why there are no 2h Axe option.  That's like a berserker's bread and butter.

  • fiontarfiontar Dana, MAPosts: 3,719Member

    If your intent would be to pick one weapon and never use anything but that weapon, then it's possible this game may not be for you. Learning all the weapons available to your profession and deciding which weapon sets to load up for a particular build or even a particular situation are one of the keys to this game.

    Your weapons are your tools and your tools all have their own functions. I might think a wrench looks cooler on my belt than a screwdriver, but I'm not going to pick a wrench if I know I need to deal with screws. Just as I wouldn't use a baseball bat to hit a golf ball off the tee, or vice versa.

    I realize that in other games your weapon choice means little other than appearance and the amount and rate of "grey damage" done. That's not the approach to weapons in GW2. The entire game is full of innovative design decisions that will require people to break out of the old mold of stale MMORPG gaming and learn the new paradigm.

    My suggestion would be to stop fretting over the ways the game fails to address your current MMO habits and start to open up to the possibility that change, while difficult, may provide returns that are more than worth the effort.

    One cool thing about the game is that you can make choices based on what appeals to you style wise and have a viable character. There is nothing superior about axes vs. swords, they provide a different style of doing things. I guess, in your case, you will have to decide which is more important, the look of your weapons or the style of play each weapon provides.  Either is valid as long as you learn to play your choices and make the best out of them.

    BTW, I wouldn't try to assume that the skills attached to a particular weapon will or won't suit your playstyle until you actually try them. The way things look on paper doesn't often tell the whole story of how they feel in combat. Too skip the game because a sword can't do what an axe does would be to ignore a truly innovative game that you might have gone on to decide is one of the best you've ever played, over something that in hind sight would have seemed extremely trivial.

    Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
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  • DiovidiusDiovidius GoudaPosts: 1,025Member

    Originally posted by Tacomeat

    Yes I'm very picky with my weapons.  In most games I gravitate to axes...but I'll just have to adapt...of course I'm still wondering why there are no 2h Axe option.  That's like a berserker's bread and butter.

    I assume it's exactly because skills are linked to weapon types. The more weapon types you have, the more skills you have and the harder it will be too balance the game. There could still be weapons which resemble 2-handed axes but which are mechanically greatswords I guess.

  • TheTrueKingTheTrueKing San Antonio, TXPosts: 427Member

    IMO its about realistic use of weapons matching skills.

     

    Real life example of cooking:  Making a fried egg over easy without braking the yolk, using the proper tool to flip the egg = spatula.. now try flipping that egg, without braking the yolk, using the wrong tool = sledge hammer...

     

    Not all weapons should give the same skills and the same weapon for different classes should not give the same skills either.

    Poking someone with a dagger does not give the same damage or effects as smashing someone in the face with a 2h Bat... Seems like simple logic to me.

     

    I personally love using a big 2h sword because it fits with my love for kingarthur buuuuut to have that hinder me from experiencing this potentially life changing game?? Oh Hell No!!!

     

  • BaniscoBanisco LoquilandiaPosts: 240Member

    So to put this short, you want to take an axe and use it like a sword.... gl with that.

  • TacomeatTacomeat Cityville, CTPosts: 7Member

    Guess I didn't explain that part well.  I originally thought there would be a pool of skills a weapon could choose from similar to how the utility skills can pick 3 out of 20 skills.  I didn't know that you get what you get once you pick up that weapon and are pretty much stuck with those options but now I know.  But oh yeah I actually wanted to cut down a forest with a hammer...

  • BaniscoBanisco LoquilandiaPosts: 240Member

    Those forests need some hamering...

    Also this is not new, in GW1 all the clases who are weapon dependant (warrior, paragon, ranger, dervish and assasin) had weapon related skills, wich means that some skills could only be used if you had equiped the correct weapon. It makes sense at the point that you never will see someone stabing with a hammer.

  • therez0therez0 Ridgecrest, CAPosts: 379Member

    AS others have said, the weapon selects the first 5 skills and then traits can modify certain skills. For instance (and this is just an example and may not be current info) a certain trait gives the warrior swiftness (speed boost) when you hit a moving/fleeing enemy. So equip that trait with the gap-closing bulls charge utility skill, and it wont matter if the enemy tries to kite you.


    The coolest thing about this iteration (and its probably the last iteration) of traits and weapons is that it is highly modular. In GW1, if they added a new weapon, it was tied to a specific stat and that stat had particular associated skills and thus limited the number of viable skill-builds to a handful while increasing the number of 'trash' builds exponentially (sure a highly skilled player could thrash an inexperienced one with almost any build, but tier vs tier the better build always won).

    In GW2, because the weapons are independent of the traits it gives the dev team the option of introducing new weapon types without having to completely rebuild the class. So we could see brand new weapons down the line with completely new skills, and it wouldn't change a thing with current player's builds.

    Similarly, they could add new traits and it would also not change current player builds. Basically it gives Anet unprecedented room to expand without affecting balance of the existing game; sure they could balance existing skills/weapons, but adding new would only mean having to balance the new, not the old.

  • TheTrueKingTheTrueKing San Antonio, TXPosts: 427Member

    Originally posted by Tacomeat

    Guess I didn't explain that part well.  I originally thought there would be a pool of skills a weapon could choose from similar to how the utility skills can pick 3 out of 20 skills.  I didn't know that you get what you get once you pick up that weapon and are pretty much stuck with those options but now I know.  But oh yeah I actually wanted to cut down a forest with a hammer...

    I totally understand what you are getting at but if nobody explained to you about switching weapon sets in combat maybe that would help shed some light.

     

    you explained a weapon that gives like 2-3 skills to close in on a target and the other only gives like 1-2.

    Use the one weapon set to move into range then switch and cut a' foo, rinse and repeat.

     

    I prefer the bash a foo its like wack a mole :D

  • TacomeatTacomeat Cityville, CTPosts: 7Member

    Yeah I intended to go in with a greatsword, close the gap and then switch to axes and go nuts.  Or just go with a hammer for control.  I don't know how fast the weapon swaps are or how long the cd is... trying to find info on that now.  

  • UnlightUnlight Ottawa, ONPosts: 2,540Member

    Originally posted by Tacomeat

    Yes I'm very picky with my weapons.  In most games I gravitate to axes...but I'll just have to adapt...of course I'm still wondering why there are no 2h Axe option.  That's like a berserker's bread and butter.

    I'm sure it's just a matter of time a resources.  They can't put in every single weapon type or combination that every player would want.  If they did, I'd be working on a 2h Pike build (spears rarely get any love).  It's just one of the things that couldn't be fit in.  Maybe an expansion will introduce a couple of new weapons, along with their accompanying skills.

  • DannyGloverDannyGlover Portland, ORPosts: 1,277Member


    Originally posted by Unlight

    Originally posted by Tacomeat
    Yes I'm very picky with my weapons.  In most games I gravitate to axes...but I'll just have to adapt...of course I'm still wondering why there are no 2h Axe option.  That's like a berserker's bread and butter.
    I'm sure it's just a matter of time a resources.  They can't put in every single weapon type or combination that every player would want.  If they did, I'd be working on a 2h Pike build (spears rarely get any love).  It's just one of the things that couldn't be fit in.  Maybe an expansion will introduce a couple of new weapons, along with their accompanying skills.


    Ah yes, the polearm. Any mmo that has a polearm weilding class and I roll one asap. I blame Kilik from Soul Calibur

    I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.

  • austriacusaustriacus limaPosts: 624Member

    Originally posted by Tacomeat

    Yeah I intended to go in with a greatsword, close the gap and then switch to axes and go nuts.  Or just go with a hammer for control.  I don't know how fast the weapon swaps are or how long the cd is... trying to find info on that now.  

    The warrior has like 2-3 utility skills that let you close gaps. You dont need the greatsword to be highly mobile.

  • therez0therez0 Ridgecrest, CAPosts: 379Member

    As I said before, the way Anet has it built right now, adding weapons is going to be easier to balance than almost any game before.

    Personally, I would love to see a whip as a playable weapon (*what kind of a masochist...*), a true polearm--like a bardiche or a halberd (not some silly axe-swung animations either), naginata, staves (as a martial weapon, not a caster weapon), crossbows.


    I could go on-and-on (I'm a huge martial arms nerd) with my wishlist; but the flexibility to expand is there and it may only be a matter of time before we see new weapons.


    Originally posted by DannyGlover

    Ah yes, the polearm. Any mmo that has a polearm weilding class and I roll one asap. I blame Kilik from Soul Calibur

    Kilik uses a stave, not a polearm.

  • ZyllosZyllos Oklahoma City, OKPosts: 537Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by DannyGlover

     




    Originally posted by Unlight





    Originally posted by Tacomeat

    Yes I'm very picky with my weapons.  In most games I gravitate to axes...but I'll just have to adapt...of course I'm still wondering why there are no 2h Axe option.  That's like a berserker's bread and butter.






    I'm sure it's just a matter of time a resources.  They can't put in every single weapon type or combination that every player would want.  If they did, I'd be working on a 2h Pike build (spears rarely get any love).  It's just one of the things that couldn't be fit in.  Maybe an expansion will introduce a couple of new weapons, along with their accompanying skills.





    Ah yes, the polearm. Any mmo that has a polearm weilding class and I roll one asap. I blame Kilik from Soul Calibur

     



    I would be extremely surprised if they ever add 2h Axes. They were never in GW1.

    MMOs Played: I can no longer list them all in the 500 character limit.

  • DannyGloverDannyGlover Portland, ORPosts: 1,277Member


    Originally posted by therez0
    Kilik uses a stave, not a polearm.
    thanks

    I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.

  • AvsRock21AvsRock21 Denver, COPosts: 256Member

    Originally posted by Tacomeat

     


    Ok I’m just trying to get some clarfication and see if I’m comprehending this correctly, because if what I see in the skill tool is all that is offered in terms of weapon skills, then I will seriously be contemplating whether I purchase this game or not.  


     


    If the following is false you don't have to read the below past the line and I’ll eat my hat and humbly ask for a lecture and links:  Skills are assigned by weapons.  There is no bigger pool of offensive skills that can be used with all weapons (like utility skills) meaning that the skills that are pre-assigned to the weapons you wield will be what you have to play with for the rest of the game excluding utility/elite skills.


     


    Ex:  In wow the weapon you use doesn’t matter, you get your skills from a trainer and they remain the same.  But in Gw2, your skills are determined by your weapon forcing you to possibly play say with swords when that person may actually want to play with axes (me). 



     


    I noticed on the skills tool and Totalhalibut’s warrior video, that each weapon does something the other weapons cannot or are better at. 


     


    Ex:  Swords are obviously a bleeding type weapon.  Sever artery (1 slot), Impale (offhand 4th slot), Riposte (5th slot).  3 of the 5 skills you “have to use” are for bleeding.  “If you wanna make guys bleed, then this is the way to do so.—Totalbiscuit" 



     


     


    If the above is true, I may not be buying this game because I consider not being able to choose the weapon you want, without feeling gimped, to be a severe flaw and I want to play this game very much.  (If I understand this correctly, you can have as many weapons as you want, you just can only have 2 in-combat weapons at 1 time.  Once out of combat you can equip as you please).  


     


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    Somehow you're missing the idea behing GW2.  There shouldn't be cookie cutter builds, or flavor of the month (year) classes...  Once this game get's going and the classes/weapons are balanced.  You have nothing stopping you from picking your preferred weapon, and getting good with the skills provided by the weapon.  I mean seriously, would you rather have everyone running around with different weapons, but the exact same build...  The GW2 system creates more diveristy and makes your decisions create a more unique character.

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